Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Kornaki]

I think he's just doing a cartwheel or something there, so not obviously a clue to his strength.

[Squire Doodad]

I think he's just doing a cartwheel or something there, so not obviously a clue to his strength.

Given his posture and the orientation of the many things, this is definitely a "or something" situation.
I'd say it works as "no, he's not particularly weak", but otherwise I agree; saying the scene hints at good strength is reading into it too much.

[dancrilis]

I think he's just doing a cartwheel or something there, so not obviously a clue to his strength.

The motion lines on the paddle (and the squirrel, lamp being stable) seem to imply he is holding his position.

Seperately - should Redcloak have Reach Spell for seemingly being able to cast slay living at range beyond touch (he could also be a Hierophant I suppose).

[Peelee]

The motion lines on the paddle (and the squirrel, lamp being stable) seem to imply he is holding his position.

Seperately - should Redcloak have Reach Spell for seemingly being able to cast slay living at range beyond touch (he could also be a Hierophant I suppose).

Many spells which require touch do not, in fact, require touch (teleport being the most notable off the top of my head). I'd call this a similar situation, since there's almost no distance between them, similar to teleport.

[danielxcutter]

Well Nale uses a longsword and I believe they have the same physical stats so it’s probably not that bad? I’m pretty sure Elan was somewhat capable of using that rapier, just not as well as before Dashing Swordsman.

[dancrilis]

[SIZE="4"]
Miko Miyazaki
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana

I assume we are treating 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana' as 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword' for this.

Should we?
Katana specifically mentioned 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana' not Bastard Sword and Exotic Weapon Proficiency specifically mentions Bastard Sword.

[Jasdoif]

I assume we are treating 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana' as 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword' for this.

Should we?
Katana specifically mentioned 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana' not Bastard Sword and Exotic Weapon Proficiency specifically mentions Bastard Sword.

Yes, we should.

A katana (samurai sword), for example, is not on the weapon list, but you could equip your character with a katana and just treat it like a masterwork bastard sword.

The wiki page for the katana you linked pulls from the 3.0 SRD, though it doesn't mention the "Except as indicated, same as masterwork bastard sword" note from the table there. (The little section on alternate settings in the 3.5 DMG has a largely similar table and text, but the note there says "Except as indicated, treat a katana as a masterwork bastard sword.")

[dancrilis]

Yes, we should.
The wiki page for the katana you linked pulls from the 3.0 SRD, though it doesn't mention the "Except as indicated, same as masterwork bastard sword" note from the table there. (The little section on alternate settings in the 3.5 DMG has a largely similar table and text, but the note there says "Except as indicated, treat a katana as a masterwork bastard sword.")

Fair enough - was trying to find the stats of the scimitar Nale got, found out he actually got a katana and went down the rabbit hole not noticing that I was looking at a 3.0 katana.

[danielxcutter]

I think it’s also in the 3.5e PHB as well?

[dancrilis]

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14 (forum).

Thog
Non-lawful (required for rage) Evil, Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 / Barbarian 9+ (required to have 3 attacks a round).

If Thog is listed as at least level 11 to justify 3 attacks in a round should Roy be listed as level 16 for making four?
If you count the clunks (and crack) on panels 14 to 16.

Seperately should Thog be listed as level 16 (and given Quick Draw) as in 396 he makes 4 attacks (1 on the door, quick draw to pick it up and then three attacks on Haley).

[danielxcutter]

If Thog is listed as at least level 11 to justify 3 attacks in a round should Roy be listed as level 16 for making four?
If you count the clunks (and crack) on panels 14 to 16.

Seperately should Thog be listed as level 16 (and given Quick Draw) as in 396 he makes 4 attacks (1 on the door, quick draw to pick it up and then three attacks on Haley).

I think it’s more like he sundered the door and picked it up, Elan tried Diplomacy, and it failed so Thog made a full attack on Haley after that. Two rounds.

[dancrilis]

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Feats: Maximize Spell or Sudden Maximize

Regardless of whether Xykon has Sudden Maximize he seems to have Maximize anyway.
He maximises a spell here (panel 16) and he maximises another here (panel 8) - on what seems to be the same day.

I am dubious about him having sudden at all but if we are including it we should probable list it seperately from Maximize Spell.

[danielxcutter]

Regardless of whether Xykon has Sudden Maximize he seems to have Maximize anyway.
He maximises a spell here (panel 16) and he maximises another here (panel 8) - on what seems to be the same day.

I am dubious about him having sudden at all but if we are including it we should probable list it seperately from Maximize Spell.

He clearly has Maximize, so let’s just put that and then add Sudden later if we’re sure.

[dancrilis]

He clearly has Maximize, so let’s just put that and then add Sudden later if we’re sure.

The problem then is we need to account for a 12th level spell slot (and there has been some reluctance to give him a 12th level spell slot).

Seperately:

Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost, Wizard: Illusionist 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost).

I am somewhat dubious as to if Eugene should count as a ghost - rather the some ghostlike positive energy spirit.

But if he does count as a ghost he should seemingly have a charisma of 10+ as the template grants a +4 modifier.

[MultitudeMan]

Hasn't Haley had three Rogue special abilities by now, since we're pretty sure she's Rogue 16? I agree that two of them have been spent on feats, but we should list that there's a third, even if we don't know what she used it on.

Edit: I've also noticed that there's inconsistency in the listing of skill ranks in Spellcraft for a number of characters. Some have a minimum number of ranks (e.g. Elan, Belkar), while some have no minimum ranks listed (e.g. Minrah, Durkon). Is the issue that we don't have upper limits on most of the characters' INT scores, so can't be sure of their modifier? If that's the issue, then why is Haley listed as 9+, since she was able to identify a Meteor Swarm rune, and definitely has at least a +1 modifier, due to her having at least one bonus language?

[InvisibleBison]

Why is Haley listed as having Spellcraft at all? She explicitly identifies the runes in 867 as traps, and traps (including magical traps) are found using the Search skill and disabled using the Disable Device skill.

[dancrilis]

Why is Haley listed as having Spellcraft at all? She explicitly identifies the runes in 867 as traps, and traps (including magical traps) are found using the Search skill and disabled using the Disable Device skill.

Search doesn't tell you what you have found, and Disable Device does not tell you want you are disabling.

For instance if Haley had found this trap and disabled it - she might just have found pressure plates and clogged them in place, without even knowing that the trap involved poison, ants, honey, saws, a skeleton, a pit etc.

[InvisibleBison]

Search doesn't tell you what you have found, and Disable Device does not tell you want you are disabling.

So how is Haley identifing the traps? She's not using Spellcraft's "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect" option, because the traps haven't gone off yet and thus aren't in effect.

[Peelee]

So how is Haley identifing the traps? She's not using Spellcraft's "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect" option, because the traps haven't gone off yet and thus aren't in effect.

So a trap going off counts as "in effect"...

I submit the greatest Spellcraft checker in the world!

[dancrilis]

So how is Haley identifing the traps? She's not using Spellcraft's "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect" option, because the traps haven't gone off yet and thus aren't in effect.

Who knows - I am not going back to look at the discussion that gave her spellcraft 9+ to verify.

However:

Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell

The effect of the spell Meteor Swarm within the trap are that it will trigger a Meteor Swarm spell in the event that the trap is triggered - Haley was able to detect the effects of the spell by finding the trap (i.e the trap would go off).

You could also make a case for:

Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic.

You could make a case for the the trap containing a written version of the spell triggered by triggering the trap (as opposed to casting the scroll).

DC for both would be 29 so she would need a 9+ (total modifier) to succeed (presumedly she took 20).

If you want to propose an alternative method (knowledge: arcana, profession: trap identifier, etc) feel free.

[InvisibleBison]

The effect of the spell Meteor Swarm within the trap are that it will trigger a Meteor Swarm spell in the event that the trap is triggered - Haley was able to detect the effects of the spell by finding the trap (i.e the trap would go off).

No, when the skill use says "in effect", it's referring to the game keyword. Meteor Swarm doesn't have an effect, so it can't be identified by that use of Spellcraft.

You could make a case for the the trap containing a written version of the spell triggered by triggering the trap (as opposed to casting the scroll).

But that's not how scrolls work. Scrolls are spell completion items. If the runes were spell completion items, they'd be useless as traps, because they would only activate when someone knowingly, intentionally did so.

If you want to propose an alternative method (knowledge: arcana, profession: trap identifier, etc) feel free.

As far as I can tell, there is no RAW way to identify a trap.

[dancrilis]

But that's not how scrolls work. Scrolls are spell completion items. If the runes were spell completion items, they'd be useless as traps, because they would only activate when someone knowingly, intentionally did so.

I am not making the case that a trap is a spell completion magic item.
I am making the case that runes exist and so might be read and so might be deciphered via: Decipher a written spell without using read magic.

[CawCawMarmalade]

Just noticed that Julia's stats haven't been updated with that new spell she contacted Roy with on page 1191 and the following pages.

Since the spell is not named in the comic, we'll need some placeholder to note it down in her spell list until it gets a canon name. How about "Unnamed variant of Sending powered by the Blood Oath"?

[GrayGriffin]

Just noticed that Julia's stats haven't been updated with that new spell she contacted Roy with on page 1191 and the following pages.

Since the spell is not named in the comic, we'll need some placeholder to note it down in her spell list until it gets a canon name. How about "Unnamed variant of Sending powered by the Blood Oath"?

We have a name-it's Julia's Senior Project. :P

[Quartz]

Did we have a discussion about Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage? It seems to me that this is likely to be an Epic spell. There are several reasons. First, Xykon, being a sorceror, is severely limited in known spells from levels 1-9. But an Epic sorceror has no limit on Epic spells known, only spells cast. So why waste a precious slot? Secondly there's Xykon's comment about the research: you can either play this straight and refer to the development costs of Epic spells or play it for rule of funny bacause an Epic spell with a DC of 0 can be developed on the fly, so Xykon's comment is then ironic.

[b_jonas]

Over in another thread, Peelee suggests that in D&D 3, perhaps Vaarsuvius needn't have chosen another barred school besides conjuration to specialize on evocations. Does anyone happen to know the relevant D&D 3 rules for whether this is true? If so, it's possible that Vaarsuvius does not have necromancy as a barred school after all.

[hamishspence]

It's true in 3.0. But OOTS is 3.5. Based on this:

I don't know a damn thing about those three characters other than, "I need three evil souls to represent the three parts of arcane power V doesn't have (conjuration, necromancy, and spontaneous casting)

it makes most sense to me that The Giant eventually committed to V having banned necromancy as well.

[Schroeswald]

As I understand it the current theory is that v barred conjuration in 3.0, but when it was updated they had to pick another barred school and made it necromancy.

[MultitudeMan]

As I understand it the current theory is that v barred conjuration in 3.0, but when it was updated they had to pick another barred school and made it necromancy.

Yes, and this theory also explains why V's spellbook has Vampiric Touch in it, despite V having Necromancy as a banned school. V scribed it before strip #1, back when V's only banned school was Conjuration.

[Doug Lampert]

Did we have a discussion about Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage? It seems to me that this is likely to be an Epic spell. There are several reasons. First, Xykon, being a sorceror, is severely limited in known spells from levels 1-9. But an Epic sorceror has no limit on Epic spells known, only spells cast. So why waste a precious slot? Secondly there's Xykon's comment about the research: you can either play this straight and refer to the development costs of Epic spells or play it for rule of funny bacause an Epic spell with a DC of 0 can be developed on the fly, so Xykon's comment is then ironic.

Non-epic sorcerers can research spells fine. Rules in the DMG. They still need to spend a spell known, but the Moderately Escapable Forcecage is still a fine spell with multiple possible uses. The normal tactical use of holding someone still while you kill them works fine unless they know that Xykon has a custom spell with a deliberately built in flaw.