Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Emanick]

Agreed. She should be level 1+ as a fighter until we see more evidence for her being higher. It's already ridiculous enough that she's level 10+ at all (which since you level at the end of each day in this comic, means she was level 9+ already when she was on menial guard duty, which seems ridiculous).

Spoiler: No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus content

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After Shelby the hobgoblin kills an ancient silver dragon, Xykon strongly implies that he's gained several levels' worth of XP from the battle before killing him for being "overqualified for being a random mook." I don't think we can assume that you can only gain one level per day in this comic.

[TooSoon]

Spoiler: No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus content

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After Shelby the hobgoblin kills an ancient silver dragon, Xykon strongly implies that he's gained several levels' worth of XP from the battle before killing him for being "overqualified for being a random mook." I don't think we can assume that you can only gain one level per day in this comic.

That incredibly speculative evidence can't refute the explicit demonstration of how levelling up works in the comic.

[Emanick]

That incredibly speculative evidence can't refute the explicit demonstration of how levelling up works in the comic.

I'd call it a bit more definitive than "incredibly speculative," since the scene makes zero sense if leveling works the way you describe.

Where is your explicit demonstration?

[b_jonas]

While we're discussing Redcloak and his spells, can you tell me about the scene in Start of Darkness page 15? What is the Smite spell or ability that Redcloak uses? He then says he doesn't have any more uses of it for that day. Was this a spell that he prepared, some Cleric ability, or a spell or ability that the Mantle grants? If it's a spell, then what spell is it and what level?

Earlier that day, Redcloak is ordained as a new “acolyte”, which comes with a white dress. Does that mean that he's just gained his first level of Cleric, or is it a higher level? I expect first level from how little he could help in the fight. I will note that Minrah and his group are also described as acolytes in #1093 last panel.

If you can point me to previous discussions of this, that would help too. I haven't searched all sixteen past threads (yet).

[Schroeswald]

While we're discussing Redcloak and his spells, can you tell me about the scene in Start of Darkness page 15? What is the Smite spell or ability that Redcloak uses? He then says he doesn't have any more uses of it for that day. Was this a spell that he prepared, some Cleric ability, or a spell or ability that the Mantle grants? If it's a spell, then what spell is it and what level?

Earlier that day, Redcloak is ordained as a new “acolyte”, which comes with a white dress. Does that mean that he's just gained his first level of Cleric, or is it a higher level? I expect first level from how little he could help in the fight. I will note that Minrah and his group are also described as acolytes in #1093 last panel.

If you can point me to previous discussions of this, that would help too. I haven't searched all sixteen past threads (yet).

It’s a power from the destruction domain

[Ephemera]

What exactly does "per day" mean in 3.5? Does it require a rest or can you level if you pull an all-nighter and then again the next day? Aside from SoD (which I agree makes zero sense unless mooks can level more than once in a single encounter), it seems totally plausible that the encounter with the vampires took place at night and the council meeting the next morning.

In either case, It's certainly been at least a day since then, so if Minrah gained enough XP to be one short of cleric 9 (starting from 8 when we first met her and losing a level from the resurrection), that she leveled a second time from an off-panel encounter, or got a few role play XP from the drinking scene.

In any case, evidence is she cast Thor's Might now, so I suggest that we don't really need to tie ourselves in knots figuring out how she got there or where she started. I'm fine with derailing the thread any time, but "cast Thor's might" seems like much stronger and more solid evidence than "seems too high level to be on guard duty."

[TooSoon]

I'd call it a bit more definitive than "incredibly speculative," since the scene makes zero sense if leveling works the way you describe.

Where is your explicit demonstration?

The OOTS early on has to wait till the next day to discover whether they've levelled or not (when Belkar tells his sob story to level). That is the indicator of the levelling mechanism in the comic.

[Quebbster]

The OOTS early on has to wait till the next day to discover whether they've levelled or not (when Belkar tells his sob story to level). That is the indicator of the levelling mechanism in the comic.

It's quite possible to level up without resting first.

[Reboot]

The OOTS early on has to wait till the next day to discover whether they've levelled or not (when Belkar tells his sob story to level). That is the indicator of the levelling mechanism in the comic.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html
Actually, it shows that you can only level up *when you check if you have* - if you never check, you never level up.

Haley checks first thing in the morning. None of the others did, and none of them (including Haley) checked the previous day at all, apparently.

Nothing there suggests, let alone shows, that they can't level multiple times in a day as long as they earn the XP and keep checking. (Belkar obviously checks at least thrice - once when the others level, once after killing the rat, and then again after his sob story.)

EDIT: Actually, the the sob story strip itself disproves what you say. Belkar levels up almost instantly after earning the XP. No waiting.

[Psyren]

There's also this strip. So we can definitively say leveling can happen instantly in OotS.

[danielxcutter]

Also Crystal did “level instantly”, but that might not count. Still, one exception breaks “always”.

[Peelee]

Also Crystal did “level instantly”, but that might not count. Still, one exception breaks “always”.

Two. 508 and 515.

[Reboot]

And Haley levelled the same day from the Crystal Golem fight, even if we didn't see the DING.

[b_jonas]

It’s a power from the destruction domain

Interesting. That might be it, though it doesn't seem to explain how Redcloak could one-hit a paladin.

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My interpretation is that XP can be tallied immediately, but nobody can actually level during combat, they have to wait for when they rest to actually become higher level and make all the choices. But this is mostly a headcanon, the strips are not clear enough to decide for certain.

It's quite possible to level up without resting first.

In #515, which you linked, Belkar knows that he's gained enough XP that he'll be able to level, so he speculated on it, but he wasn't able to actually gain the level right then and there. "DING" is the sound of a bell on a mechanical typewriter to indicate that the carriage is close to the margin of the page, but then you have to return the carriage and advance to the next line by pulling a lever, the typewriter or the bell does not immediately do that.

EDIT: Actually, the the sob story strip itself disproves what you say. Belkar levels up almost instantly after earning the XP. No waiting.

In #125, there's a "DING" sound and he announced "BOOM! Bonus experience points for me!". You can do that immediately, even in a combat. He didn't gain level during combat and immediately use stronger attacks or whatever else the level gives him. Belkar in fact visits the Barbarian guild in #132, and then decides to get a level of Barbarian from the XP of which the last chunk he got in #125. So he certainly didn't gain a level immediately.

You could also mention #826, in which Redcloak casts Implosion and then says "nothing like the feel of a new spell level". But I don't think he gained the level and XP during that combat. Instead he leveled earlier, then rested for a night and prayed for spells, and then #826 happens, which is perhaps the first time that he has the opportunity to use the Implosion spell.

There's also this strip. So we can definitively say leveling can happen instantly in OotS.

Again, there's a "DING" sound, probably to indicate that the XP of Kazumi and Daigo reached the threshold for 6th level, then they celebrate. They don't seem to gain a level and instantly become better in combat. Contrast this to #472, when Daigo immediately gains more max hit points from an effect, which lets him survive that combat, but this is almost certainly not from gaining a level, and there's no associated "DING" sound.

Also Crystal did “level instantly”, but that might not count. Still, one exception breaks “always”.

I assume you mean #581 second panel. Again, there's a "DING" sound, but no indication that Crystal immediately gained more hit points or a better attack or even better skills for the card game.

And Haley levelled the same day from the Crystal Golem fight, even if we didn't see the DING.

I forgot about that one, that also proves that you can tally XP before the night (it's not like the DM awards the XP only at the end of sessions or something), but there wasn't anything to show that Haley leveled during the fight and eg. suddenly became strong enough to defeat Crystal with his new class abilities or better stats.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In 1212 panel 5 Redcloak casts Unholy Blight which requires the Evil Domain.

As he already has two domains listed a third would require him to have the Epic Feat: 'Extra Domain', which I feel is not justified and so I would say we could replace the Law Domain with the Evil Domain.
This leaves Hold Monster in a bit needing some explanation and without having SOD to hand at the moment I don't want to overly speculate but Redcloak did seem (somewhat) surprised that a cleric would have that spell in 456 so it is possible that he only has it as one of the spells from the cloak - and also The Dark One would seem to be the god of all goblins not merely Lawful ones so a Neutral Evil alignment might suit him better to cover the three usual alignments of the most populace goblinoids we have seen.

Or he has one of several prestige classes that grant an extra domain. Most of which also advance spellcasting.

[Reboot]

My interpretation is that XP can be tallied immediately, but nobody can actually level during combat, they have to wait for when they rest to actually become higher level and make all the choices. But this is mostly a headcanon, the strips are not clear enough to decide for certain.
In #515, which you linked, Belkar knows that he's gained enough XP that he'll be able to level, so he speculated on it, but he wasn't able to actually gain the level right then and there. "DING" is the sound of a bell on a mechanical typewriter to indicate that the carriage is close to the margin of the page, but then you have to return the carriage and advance to the next line by pulling a lever, the typewriter or the bell does not immediately do that.
In #125, there's a "DING" sound and he announced "BOOM! Bonus experience points for me!". You can do that immediately, even in a combat. He didn't gain level during combat and immediately use stronger attacks or whatever else the level gives him. Belkar in fact visits the Barbarian guild in #132, and then decides to get a level of Barbarian from the XP of which the last chunk he got in #125. So he certainly didn't gain a level immediately.

But here's the thing - if he DIDN'T gain the level in #515, just reached the XP threshold, then he potentially loses both the unclaimed level (because it's unclaimed) AND his current level*. My interpretation is that when they go up a level, their total level increases, but none of their class levels do until they decide WHICH class they're going to get (so they don't get much in the way of benefits from the new level yet, but it still counts towards their total for the purposes of stuff like which level you come back as if you're killed and Raised). i.e., Belkar went from "Level X: Ranger X" to "Level X+1: Ranger X, 1 open". And characters like Roy or V, whose identity is bound up with their "single-class", convert the open level to their class level pretty much immediately, but it isn't required.

*Yes, I know negative levels aren't quite the same thing as losing a level - at least, not as long as you make the save 24 hours later, or get a Restoration within that time - but the joke is clearly that "he lost the new level". And like drama, the rules of the OOTSverse clearly bend for comedy. A failed save means you lose your current level and have your XP reset to "halfway between the level you lost and the one below it."

Again, there's a "DING" sound, probably to indicate that the XP of Kazumi and Daigo reached the threshold for 6th level, then they celebrate. They don't seem to gain a level and instantly become better in combat. Contrast this to #472, when Daigo immediately gains more max hit points from an effect, which lets him survive that combat, but this is almost certainly not from gaining a level, and there's no associated "DING" sound.

Well, they were no longer in combat at that point, there's no opportunity for them to "instantly become better in combat." Like I said, you clearly only get the level when you check your XP, not automatically on reaching the XP threshold. Most characters don't check in-combat (Belkar in #515 is a clear exception), and it could be the next day, next week or even next year before a particularly lazy character actually finds out about it.

[Wildstag]

Or he has one of several prestige classes that grant an extra domain. Most of which also advance spellcasting.

Contemplative is the only one I know of that allows you to actually choose your domain, and given Redcloak's statements earlier in the conversation, he almost certainly does not have levels in it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

True, but it's not much of a stretch to say Bearer of the Crimson Mantle tells you to take another one of TDO's domains. And that's just a made up on instead of something from yet another splatbook.

[b_jonas]

A failed save means you lose your current level and have your XP reset to "halfway between the level you lost and the one below it."

Where do the rules say how the XP is affected? The rules on "Energy Drain And Negative Levels" don't seem to mention it.

Anyway, it's possible that Belkar did technically get a level but couldn't spend that on class levels and new skills and other character options. It doesn't matter too much to me either way, and I don't think it matters for the punchline of #515 either. Perhaps the technicalities would matter for a munchkin spellcaster who wants to spend XP for one-shot stuff like scribing scrolls and researching spells and casting spells with an XP cost.

[InvisibleBison]

Where do the rules say how the XP is affected? The rules on "Energy Drain And Negative Levels" don't seem to mention it.

It's under "Level loss".

[TooSoon]

Where do the rules say how the XP is affected? The rules on "Energy Drain And Negative Levels" don't seem to mention it.

Anyway, it's possible that Belkar did technically get a level but couldn't spend that on class levels and new skills and other character options. It doesn't matter too much to me either way, and I don't think it matters for the punchline of #515 either. Perhaps the technicalities would matter for a munchkin spellcaster who wants to spend XP for one-shot stuff like scribing scrolls and researching spells and casting spells with an XP cost.

This was my thought process yeh; Belkar got enough experience to level, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could actually take the new level right away. My reading has been you have to do that the next day, but maybe a different reading of the rules about when you can level up is being applied.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Generally, DMs have you level up when there's a break in the action (hence the thing about after sleeping), just so you don't suddenly jump a level in the middle of something.

[Ephemera]

Not that it matters, but I wasn't really asking about whether you could take your level without resting. My question was if, say, it was 10 pm when they met Minrah, could she have gained a level before midnight, then gained another in the fight in the council chamber that was the next day to get around the "only one level per day" rule. I think SoD argues that you can gain more than one level per day anyway, so...

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's really a DM call the whole way. Some DMs would want you to make at least a pretense of learning about your new abilities. Others will just hand casters new spells in the middle of a fight without requiring spell prep or anything. There really isn't rules here beyond your table's culture.

[dps]

My interpretation is that XP can be tallied immediately, but nobody can actually level during combat, they have to wait for when they rest to actually become higher level and make all the choices. But this is mostly a headcanon, the strips are not clear enough to decide for certain.

There's a good deal of middle ground between being "able to level in combat" and having "to wait for when they rest".

[locksmith of lo]

Xykon[/B], pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+ (see 429, 442, and 1041),

hello i was just browsing again the stats and found that the 3rd link for Xykon's level is not correct. it says 1041 but links to 429. that is all i have to contribute today.

[Yxylu]

Contemplative is the only one I know of that allows you to actually choose your domain, and given Redcloak's statements earlier in the conversation, he almost certainly does not have levels in it.

Maybe he gained 7 levels of Shaman (Oriental Adventures) during his year+ in Azure City. They have Unholy Blight on their spell list.

[Wildstag]

Maybe he gained 7 levels of Shaman (Oriental Adventures) during his year+ in Azure City. They have Unholy Blight on their spell list.

But to also cast Implosion (a 9th level spell) and have 7 levels of Shaman, he'd have to be at least level 24.

Substitute Domain is probably the answer here.

[knag]

Substitute Domain is probably the answer here.

I agree this is the cleanest explanation for the third domain, though Complete Champion is not a supplement shown to be used in the comic thus far. The same issue holds for Complete Divine for the Contemplative explanation. I'd be inclined to believe either of those explanations over an epic feat or a magic item.

[danielxcutter]

Redcloak would absolutely leverage that if he had access to that spell, honestly.