Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Ephemera]

Level 4 spells would include Death Ward and Freedom of Movement, which are both relevant, but would establish Minrah as Fighter X/Cleric 7+, which may be more than the Giant wishes to commit to, as if her fighter level is similar to her cleric level, that brings her pretty near to the overall level of the Order, which it has been strongly implied is not the case.

Thoughts?

Did we decide that she has to have to fighter levels roughly equal to cleric? I thought we kind of landed on “fighter 2 or more, probably 4” with the dialog being consistent also with having more fighter levels than cleric.

In fact I feel like the dialogue (unless I am remembering wrong, which I usually am) centers around “Roy has no idea how effective I am, because he doesn’t know my fighter level” in which case it would be entirety consistent with her implying that Roy thinks she’s something like Cleric 7/fighter, which would be pretty underpowered for them, but shes actually more like 7/7.

Mind you, I don’t even think 5/5 is all thah well supported (although totally plausible), I just don’t think she implied she’s not in the Order’s League, all we know if that Roy didn’t think she was, no?

[danielxcutter]

Are we 100% sure that Roy (or anyone else) hasn't leveled up since the last couple of fights? I mean, after beating the Nightcrawler, and killing a good chunk of the vampires himself, he may very well have leveled up if he was only level 14. Not just the spawn, he took out a lot of the vampire clerics too, even if some of that was split with Hilgya.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Rich not strictly using the rules nowadays, and Roy's sword becoming a Weapon of Legacy, he'd be horribly underpowered to the point of not having much impact on combat at all. And I'm not even just talking about him being a Fighter!

[Emanick]

Are we 100% sure that Roy (or anyone else) hasn't leveled up since the last couple of fights? I mean, after beating the Nightcrawler, and killing a good chunk of the vampires himself, he may very well have leveled up if he was only level 14. Not just the spawn, he took out a lot of the vampire clerics too, even if some of that was split with Hilgya.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Rich not strictly using the rules nowadays, and Roy's sword becoming a Weapon of Legacy, he'd be horribly underpowered to the point of not having much impact on combat at all. And I'm not even just talking about him being a Fighter!

We definitely can't be certain that Roy hasn't leveled up. He should be listed as 14+ at this point, IMO.

That said, fighters can do an enormous amount of damage per round when they're not getting messed up by magic. I don't think it would be fair to discount Roy's battle impact even if he didn't have a Weapon of Legacy.

[danielxcutter]

We definitely can't be certain that Roy hasn't leveled up. He should be listed as 14+ at this point, IMO.

That said, fighters can do an enormous amount of damage per round when they're not getting messed up by magic. I don't think it would be fair to discount Roy's battle impact even if he didn't have a Weapon of Legacy.

Well, I suppose. The actual damage output does vary from build to build, but a Weapon Focus feat tree-based fighter like Roy probably does hit often and hit well. He doesn't have that much else on paper, but he's well-rounded enough in terms of mental stats and has the proper mindset to be the actual leader, tactics-wise.

[PontificatusRex]

I would just like to throw in that it seems way off base to call Minrah Lawful Good. if you ignore the preconception that dwarves are lawful, I don't think anyone would ever consider her to be so. She is a nonconformist, doesn't submit to authority figures, and will always choose to do what she thinks is right - personally and morally - over societal expectations. Seems to scream Chaotic Good to me.

[danielxcutter]

I would just like to throw in that it seems way off base to call Minrah Lawful Good. if you ignore the preconception that dwarves are lawful, I don't think anyone would ever consider her to be so. She is a nonconformist, doesn't submit to authority figures, and will always choose to do what she thinks is right - personally and morally - over societal expectations. Seems to scream Chaotic Good to me.

I mean, Thor obviously isn't Lawful, so that makes sense.

[Quartz]

Are we 100% sure that Roy (or anyone else) hasn't leveled up since the last couple of fights?

While it's certainly possible, especially as lower-level characters gain proportionally more XP from encounters, we have yet to see any evidence. We'll know when Roy regains the 15th level feat he lost. #1194 might hint of Belkar having gained 16th level if you assume that he put his stat bump into Wisdom, but it's a reach and definitely not definitive. Note that there's no evidence that Minrah has levelled and she should be first, being the lowest-level character.

[danielxcutter]

While it's certainly possible, especially as lower-level characters gain proportionally more XP from encounters, we have yet to see any evidence. We'll know when Roy regains the 15th level feat he lost. #1194 might hint of Belkar having gained 16th level if you assume that he put his stat bump into Wisdom, but it's a reach and definitely not definitive. Note that there's no evidence that Minrah has levelled and she should be first, being the lowest-level character.

So why not put "Fighter 14+" then? It's not like he's only been fighting mooks that were only CR 7 and under.

[MultitudeMan]

What's our evidence for Minrah having Improved Unarmed Strike? There's no link on her entry.

[hamishspence]

Speculation based on her tendency to punch?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html

[Chronos]

The most recent comic also implies that Belkar could benefit from Shield of Faith, which would mean that (surprisingly for a lightly-armored warrior of his level) he does not already have a Ring of Protection (or at least, not a very good one).

[danielxcutter]

The most recent comic also implies that Belkar could benefit from Shield of Faith, which would mean that (surprisingly for a lightly-armored warrior of his level) he does not already have a Ring of Protection (or at least, not a very good one).

The optimization level of this webcomic, to be honest, is kinda crappy. Also, note that Roy can one-shot him easily while still dealing non-lethal damage, and since Ranger HD are only one step under Fighter HD, his AC probably is that low. Heck, I'm pretty sure he's got the third-most hit points in the entire Order - which doesn't sound impressive until you realize that Roy "survived being impaled by a triceratops" and Durkon is a dwarf cleric.

[Ephemera]

The optimization level of this webcomic, to be honest, is kinda crappy.

The characters are definitely not at all optimized. "Crappy" is a value judgement, though--it's clearly a choice on Rich's part, and I think this is partly a reflection of not caring (or caring only about story). I like to think that it's also a subtle critique on Rich's part of powergaming.

Being an old fart, there's a not-insignificant part of me that feels like the whole idea of "optimization" is antithetical to roleplaying anyway; in the days before a wave of videogames based on RPGs made it really easy to tell that some builds were a lot more effective than others, I don't remember most of us caring that much about whether our characters were optimized (I guess that was 20 years ago now, give or take). That conversation would get pretty wildly off-topic though...for the purposes of this thread, yes, the characters are definitely not optimized, and we can definitely not make any assumptions about anyone's build based on what would be a smart decision from a powergaming perspective.

[danielxcutter]

The characters are definitely not at all optimized. "Crappy" is a value judgement, though--it's clearly a choice on Rich's part, and I think this is partly a reflection of not caring (or caring only about story). I like to think that it's also a subtle critique on Rich's part of powergaming.

Being an old fart, there's a not-insignificant part of me that feels like the whole idea of "optimization" is antithetical to roleplaying anyway; in the days before a wave of videogames based on RPGs made it really easy to tell that some builds were a lot more effective than others, I don't remember most of us caring that much about whether our characters were optimized (I guess that was 20 years ago now, give or take). That conversation would get pretty wildly off-topic though...for the purposes of this thread, yes, the characters are definitely not optimized, and we can definitely not make any assumptions about anyone's build based on what would be a smart decision from a powergaming perspective.

It was a more "their builds tend to suck so Belkar not having a high deflection bonus to AC isn't that surprising" really thing, to be honest.

Also it... really depends on what you mean by "optimization". Doing something sub-optimal because it fits the character and helps with roleplaying is one thing. Doing incredibly bad choices like Belkar not having the Wisdom to cast spells despite being a Ranger, on the other hand...

[Seward]

Remember, Belkar has Endurance as a Ranger feat, so has no mechanical penalty for sleeping in either Light or Medium armor. I agree with D.One that he's probably not willing to take much of an Armor Check penalty, so magical Leather seems the likeliest for his level.

Nobody wears leather armor in D&D 3.x

Masterwork studded leather has zero armor check penalty (and all magical armor is masterwork).
Mithril chain as well has zero armor check penalty, as do some of the other exotic armor materials.

I do agree he'd probably prefer either to masterwork chain because he does rely on stealth, jumping, acrobatics and taking a -1 on all such skills probably isn't worth 1 point of improved armor, especially as a mithril chain shirt should have been an easy buy in Azure city, the two major Desert towns or Tinkertown.

Most rangers go with light armor to avoid a movement penalty, especially shorties (gnomes and halflings have only 20' of movement normally, which Belkar has improved to 30' with his barbarian level. He'd not want to be slower than Haley I think). So yeah, I'd guess magic studded leather or mithril chain. At his level they could be +5 without cutting much into his wealth by level. If his dex is especially high he might need mithril chain to make the most of it (works on dex up to 22) vs studded leather which caps at 20 dex.

Leather gets you nothing at all worthwhile (same dex max as mithril chain shirt, 2 AC less). It is only used when you are first level and too poor to afford masterwork studded leather. I guess if you find a really awesome suit of leather in a dungeon that fits you might wear it until you can afford something that is a better cost/effectiveness value (it probably wouldn't be worth it to sell such an item at half price just to get a more normal armor item), but such an item probably would have been mentioned "on camera" rather than the basic assumptions we'd make about boring gear that just has the normal plusses for a character of their wealth by level.

On other AC fronts, Belkar in Azure City talks about tossing +1 rings of protection into the trash, so he probably has a +2 or better deflection item and/or everybody in the party with a free ring slot has at least a +1 ring. It's also possible the entire OOTS is using cheap masterwork or +1 suits of armor and relying on Durkon to cast magic vestment on it every day (he'd have enough L3 spell slots and at level 13 he'd give them +3 enhancement bonuses which is barely adequate for a level 15ish party, and the spell lasts 13 hours). Usually though that was a more common strategy back in 3.0 where L12 would give you a +4 enhancement, quite similar to what you could buy and still feel relatively inexpensive at that level.

All of that said, Rich has never talked about armor enhancements or upgrades at all, the closest being when Haley bought her desert armor. I think AC and resistance bonuses typical of most adventurers are too boring to mention, although with Belkar only having a +3 vest at level 15 and only recently, it does seem likely that the Order's been slacking somewhat on normal defensive items, probably having stuff only in +1-2 range instead of the +4-5 typical of level 15. Which would also explain their abysmal saving throws in the domination scene. Roy's enough of a tank and makes enough saves that he may be keeping up better than most of the rest of the party. Durkon could be slacking and faking it with long duration cleric spells, at least on Ac and his weapon before he got the hammer of thunderbolts.

Everthing in this post is rampant speculation though. When it's too boring to mention, we can't know for sure. The d20 (and laws of drama) loom to large to guess anything from on-screen melee/missile attack outcomes and saving through outcomes.

[Seward]

We definitely can't be certain that Roy hasn't leveled up. He should be listed as 14+ at this point, IMO.

That said, fighters can do an enormous amount of damage per round when they're not getting messed up by magic. I don't think it would be fair to discount Roy's battle impact even if he didn't have a Weapon of Legacy.

Yeah. Around level 15, one of the primary tactics of a typical party is figuring out a way to get the fighter next to one or more opponents each round, so he can destroy them with a full attack. All that stuff about how powerful wizards are because of their battlefield control goes with an assumption that the fighter will be buzz-sawing enemies one at a time as they fight free of it. This sort of thing is why spells like D-Door or TK are popular - moving the fighter to the enemy or the enemy to the fighter.

If you lack a good physical attacker (archers work too if they aren't wuss-rogue-archers like Haley when she lacks sneak attack and carry diverse ammo to beat DR), you burn a LOT more spell slots to win fights and generally you need some feat and item support to boost your spell power to keep up with the expected damage of such a fighter even when burning your highest tier spell slots. (an offense oriented mage might match the single target damage of a well designed archer in damage per round using two high tier slots and both a standard + swift action).

Of course the OOTS has such crappy teamwork that Roy and Belkar rarely get to show their destructive potential except when getting swarmed by weaker enemies. But if you just stand there and let Roy swing, he's done pretty well on camera, as has Belkar when Belkar could penetrate the DR.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah. Around level 15, one of the primary tactics of a typical party is figuring out a way to get the fighter next to one or more opponents each round, so he can destroy them with a full attack. All that stuff about how powerful wizards are because of their battlefield control goes with an assumption that the fighter will be buzz-sawing enemies one at a time as they fight free of it. This sort of thing is why spells like D-Door or TK are popular - moving the fighter to the enemy or the enemy to the fighter.

If you lack a good physical attacker (archers work too if they aren't wuss-rogue-archers like Haley when she lacks sneak attack and carry diverse ammo to beat DR), you burn a LOT more spell slots to win fights and generally you need some feat and item support to boost your spell power to keep up with the expected damage of such a fighter even when burning your highest tier spell slots. (an offense oriented mage might match the single target damage of a well designed archer in damage per round using two high tier slots and both a standard + swift action).

Indeed, this is a thing that many wizard guides seem to understate or outright forget (though I'm pretty sure it's mostly tongue-in-cheek). While your spells absolutely do help them kill things, actually treating them like dumb muscle only good for hitting things, like the tone of some handbooks I've seen, is not going to end well one way or another.

Of course the OOTS has such crappy teamwork that Roy and Belkar rarely get to show their destructive potential except when getting swarmed by weaker enemies. But if you just stand there and let Roy swing, he's done pretty well on camera, as has Belkar when Belkar could penetrate the DR.

This is also true - if Belkar isn't taken out of the fight immediately, the effect is like shoving a lawnmower in his opponents' faces, and Roy has been a juggernaut for quite a few levels.

[MultitudeMan]

Nobody wears leather armor in D&D 3.x

Masterwork studded leather has zero armor check penalty (and all magical armor is masterwork).
Mithril chain as well has zero armor check penalty, as do some of the other exotic armor materials.

I do agree he'd probably prefer either to masterwork chain because he does rely on stealth, jumping, acrobatics and taking a -1 on all such skills probably isn't worth 1 point of improved armor, especially as a mithril chain shirt should have been an easy buy in Azure city, the two major Desert towns or Tinkertown.

Most rangers go with light armor to avoid a movement penalty, especially shorties (gnomes and halflings have only 20' of movement normally, which Belkar has improved to 30' with his barbarian level. He'd not want to be slower than Haley I think). So yeah, I'd guess magic studded leather or mithril chain. At his level they could be +5 without cutting much into his wealth by level. If his dex is especially high he might need mithril chain to make the most of it (works on dex up to 22) vs studded leather which caps at 20 dex.

Leather gets you nothing at all worthwhile (same dex max as mithril chain shirt, 2 AC less). It is only used when you are first level and too poor to afford masterwork studded leather. I guess if you find a really awesome suit of leather in a dungeon that fits you might wear it until you can afford something that is a better cost/effectiveness value (it probably wouldn't be worth it to sell such an item at half price just to get a more normal armor item), but such an item probably would have been mentioned "on camera" rather than the basic assumptions we'd make about boring gear that just has the normal plusses for a character of their wealth by level.

On other AC fronts, Belkar in Azure City talks about tossing +1 rings of protection into the trash, so he probably has a +2 or better deflection item and/or everybody in the party with a free ring slot has at least a +1 ring. It's also possible the entire OOTS is using cheap masterwork or +1 suits of armor and relying on Durkon to cast magic vestment on it every day (he'd have enough L3 spell slots and at level 13 he'd give them +3 enhancement bonuses which is barely adequate for a level 15ish party, and the spell lasts 13 hours). Usually though that was a more common strategy back in 3.0 where L12 would give you a +4 enhancement, quite similar to what you could buy and still feel relatively inexpensive at that level.

All of that said, Rich has never talked about armor enhancements or upgrades at all, the closest being when Haley bought her desert armor. I think AC and resistance bonuses typical of most adventurers are too boring to mention, although with Belkar only having a +3 vest at level 15 and only recently, it does seem likely that the Order's been slacking somewhat on normal defensive items, probably having stuff only in +1-2 range instead of the +4-5 typical of level 15. Which would also explain their abysmal saving throws in the domination scene. Roy's enough of a tank and makes enough saves that he may be keeping up better than most of the rest of the party. Durkon could be slacking and faking it with long duration cleric spells, at least on Ac and his weapon before he got the hammer of thunderbolts.

Everthing in this post is rampant speculation though. When it's too boring to mention, we can't know for sure. The d20 (and laws of drama) loom to large to guess anything from on-screen melee/missile attack outcomes and saving through outcomes.

We know what studded leather looks like in the OOTSverse from the first Guild member to die in this strip, and it looks about thigh-length; there's no indication of Belkar wearing anything like this under his clothes, though I admit it would be more difficult to tell given his reduced height. Mithril chain would be an appropriate choice for a hobbit halfling, but have we had any reference to mithril in the strip thus far? Can we assume it exists in this world?

However, the main issue I would have with your conclusions is that I think it assumes too much metagame knowledge from the Order, more than they've demonstrated thus far, especially Belkar. Belkar took Power Attack, which doesn't work with his daggers, and no ranks at all in Survival for at least his first 10 levels; I think we can safely assume he didn't care much about maximising his effectiveness as a melee Ranger for most of his career, although I agree he is improving in this regard. I think old Belkar might have deliberately refused to do the most sensible thing simply to express his screw-you attitude.

Also, do you have the reference for him referring to tossing Rings of Protection in the trash? I don't remember that particular line.

[D.One]

We know what studded leather looks like in the OOTSverse from the first Guild member to die in this strip, [...]

Do we have any reference saying that what that guy wears is Studded Leather?

[MultitudeMan]

Do we have any reference saying that what that guy wears is Studded Leather?

OK, technically, no, but I'm doing a Holmes-style inductive inference here. The guy is wearing a black tunic with gun-metal squares in a rectangular pattern, and is also a rogue; the implication is fairly clear.

[D.One]

OK, technically, no, but I'm doing a Holmes-style inductive inference here. The guy is wearing a black tunic with gun-metal squares in a rectangular pattern, and is also a rogue; the implication is fairly clear.

Fairlier clear due to Celia be part of that scene, even if she was absent... (Yeah, I know, that was not puntastic...)

I'll concede that the visual for that character is somewhat consistent with the picture of Studded Leather in the PHB, but I believe this wouldn't be enough for the standards of this thread, let alone saying "Belkar doesn't look like this guy I think maybe is using studded leather, so Belkar isn't using studded leather".

As it has been said previously, we have little on the characters armors, because they don't discuss it too much and the only way we could try to measure some of its stats would be if we knew the results of some rolls.

[InvisibleBison]

Even if the guy in #611 is wearing studded leather, I don't think we can conclude that all studded leather would have the same visual appearance.

[MultitudeMan]

I'll concede that the visual for that character is somewhat consistent with the picture of Studded Leather in the PHB, but I believe this wouldn't be enough for the standards of this thread, let alone saying "Belkar doesn't look like this guy I think maybe is using studded leather, so Belkar isn't using studded leather".

As it has been said previously, we have little on the characters armors, because they don't discuss it too much and the only way we could try to measure some of its stats would be if we knew the results of some rolls.

Even if the guy in #611 is wearing studded leather, I don't think we can conclude that all studded leather would have the same visual appearance.

OK, in turn, I will concede that there's little evidence AGAINST Belkar wearing studded leather, but do we have evidence that he's wearing armour at all? We have seen visual evidence of armour for Roy, Durkon, Hayley, and Minrah, and Elan has stated that he doesn't wear it a few times by now, but Belkar is wearing his armour under his clothes if he's wearing it at all. We're just assuming that even given Belkar's disregard of the opinions of others and general common sense, he's not so dumb that he wouldn't wear armour that has no mechanical penalty for him at all, and would reduce his chance of getting hit quite a lot. We have plenty of data points in character entries like that, which are not directly deduced from the visuals or statements of the strips (or Rich's comments), but are reasonable inferences, given what we know of D&D in general, and the OOTSverse in particular. We haven't entered "light armor" on Belkar's entry, as that would require some evidence, however slim, but I think most of us are assuming he's wearing some.

[Quartz]

Even if the guy in #611 is wearing studded leather,

Never mind that guy! The panels on the penultimate line clearly indicate that Belkar has the Stunning Fist feat. :)

[D.One]

Since that scene has been brought up, and I re-read it, I did some analysis:

1) Jenny seems to be using Bardic Music (otherwise, it makes no sense to be playing the harp during battle), and tries to cast Hideous Laughter, so she's at least Bard 2.

2) Yellow-robed caster casts Bull's Strength, Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray (1 ray only).

All those spells are 2nd level, and two of them are Sorcerer/Wizard exclusive spells.

Thus, he has levels in Sorcerer or Wizard.

To have 3 2nd level spell slots, if he's a Sorcerer, he must be a Sorcerer of at least 4th level. He must also have a CHA 12+. However, to have 3 2nd level spells known, he must be a Sorcerer of at least 6th level and take the Extra Spell feat (from Complete Arcane). From the "1 ray only" of Scorching Ray, we know he has a caster level lower than 7.

To cast those spells as a Wizard, he must have INT 12+ and not have Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation as barred schools. To have 3 2nd level spell slots as a Wizard, he must be:

• a Wizard of at least 3rd level with an INT 14+ and Specialization in Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation;

or

• a Wizard of at least 3rd level with an INT 24+ (highly unlikely);

or

• a Wizard of at least 4th level with an INT 14+ or Specialization in Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation;

From the "1 ray only" of Scorching Ray, we know he has a caster level lower than 7.

So, he's either:

1. Sorcerer 6 with CHA 12+ and the Extra Spell feat
2. Wizard 3 with: INT 14+ and Specialization in Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation, or INT 24+
3. Wizard 4-5 with INT 14+ or Specialization in Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation
4. Wizard 6

I know none of those have any chance of being listed here (and I agree, they shouldn't), but I liked the thought exercise.

[Jasdoif]

1) Jenny seems to be using Bardic Music (otherwise, it makes no sense to be playing the harp during battle), and tries to cast Hideous Laughter, so she's at least Bard 2.

As of On the Origin of PCs, she was Rogue 1/Bard 1/Sorcerer 1.

2) Yellow-robed caster casts Bull's Strength, Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray (1 ray only).

As of On the Origin of PCs, he was two levels short of qualifying for Arcane Trickster.

[D.One]

As of On the Origin of PCs, she was Rogue 1/Bard 1/Sorcerer 1.

As of On the Origin of PCs, he was two levels short of qualifying for Arcane Trickster.

Nice, didn't remember those.

Anyway, in that scene, Jenny must be Bard 2+ or Sorcerer 4+ to cast Hideous Laughter, since it's a Bard 1st level spell and a Sorcerer/Wizard 2nd level spell. Thus, she's at least Rogue 1/Bard 2/Sorcerer 1 or Rogue 1/Bard 1/Sorcerer 4.

About Yellowrobes, "two levels short of qualifying for Arcane Trickster" doesn't say much, because requirements involve abilities from more than one class. Also, some time has passed since OtOoPCs. I forgot to mention that he must have at least 1 level of Rogue, to do the "Sneak Attack Acid Arrow" thing.

[Jasdoif]

About Yellowrobes, "two levels short of qualifying for Arcane Trickster" doesn't say much, because requirements involve abilities from more than one class. Also, some time has passed since OtOoPCs. I forgot to mention that he must have at least 1 level of Rogue, to do the "Sneak Attack Acid Arrow" thing.

Yeah...I was hoping there was some value to be wrangled out of Arcane Trickster's impromptu sneak attack ability...but becoming available third level and the 3rd-level-spell prereq means he'd then cast as Wizard 8 or Sorcerer 9; and as you already noted, he'd have a second ray on scorching ray if his caster level was 7+.

[Schroeswald]

Jenny would have to be at least level 3 as a Bard because she uses Inspire Competence in 610.

[Chronos]

If we can find the reference for "throwing +1 rings of protection in the trash", then that would imply that for every member of the party, at least one of two things is true: They already have a Ring of Protection, or they already have two unspecified other rings that they prefer to +1 AC.

Vaarsuvius, we know, has a Ring of Wizardry, which e would probably be correct to value more than the AC, but we don't know anything about another ring for em, nor (I think) about anyone else's rings.