Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[dps]

If we can find the reference for "throwing +1 rings of protection in the trash", then that would imply that for every member of the party, at least one of two things is true: They already have a Ring of Protection, or they already have two unspecified other rings that they prefer to +1 AC.

Vaarsuvius, we know, has a Ring of Wizardry, which e would probably be correct to value more than the AC, but we don't know anything about another ring for em, nor (I think) about anyone else's rings.

We know that Belkar has his Ring of Jumping.

[Peelee]

If we can find the reference for "throwing +1 rings of protection in the trash", then that would imply that for every member of the party, at least one of two things is true: They already have a Ring of Protection, or they already have two unspecified other rings that they prefer to +1 AC.

Or a third option, they have deflection bonuses granted by other means, and same-type bonuses do not stack unless explicitly mentioned.

[danielxcutter]

Or a third option, they have deflection bonuses granted by other means, and same-type bonuses do not stack unless explicitly mentioned.

Well, Durkon can cast Shield of Faith.

Also, Jenny is likely higher level than she was in On the Origin of PCs for the reasons already stated, though it's not clear if she's casting Hideous Laughter as a Sorcerer or a Bard. (Irrelevant side note: Amusingly, in Greyhawk Tasha's Hideous Laughter was invented by the notorious Iggwilv of all people; Tasha was a pseudonym she used. I find it amusing because it's actually kind of a contrast to her sheer power reflected in her Savage Tides version statblock.)

I believe that Haley referred to Yellowrobes as an Arcane Trickster, but that's likely either her presuming that he'd probably gained the required levels while she was adventuring, or just being used as shorthand for Rogue/Wizard or Sorcerer. It also depends on whether "needs two more levels" referred to either Rogue or his casting class, I suppose.

[Jasdoif]

I believe that Haley referred to Yellowrobes as an Arcane Trickster, but that's likely either her presuming that he'd probably gained the required levels while she was adventuring, or just being used as shorthand for Rogue/Wizard or Sorcerer.

I guess this warrants a citation...

Spoiler: On the Origin of PCs, page 9

Show

Haley: Hey, Chuck. How's the Arcane Trickster thing going?
Yellowrobes Chuck: Can't complain. I only have two more levels of sucking ass before I qualify for the class.
Haley: Good luck, say hi to your wife for me!

[danielxcutter]

I guess this warrants a citation...

No, I was talking about her telling Celia that "[Bozzok's]] Arcane Trickster" wouldn't be able to scry on her due to the Cloister effect.

[Jasdoif]

No, I was talking about her telling Celia that "[Bozzok's]] Arcane Trickster" wouldn't be able to scry on her due to the Cloister effect.

Oh, that. Well....If we go with the thread-stated standard of assuming characters know what they're talking about, if we don't assume multiclassing beyond what's stated (the main reason I brought up the scene from On the Origins of PCs), and if the Arcane Trickster in question is in fact Chuck (which would explain his comment about multiclass casters)....That would mean he's Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1, to be able to qualify for Arcane Trickster and have a level in it without having a high enough caster level to have more rays from scorching ray than shown.

Except scrying is a fourth-level spell for wizards and sorcerers, meaning a minimum caster level of 7; so simply being able to cast scrying would mean there should have been a second ray from scorching ray. So something else is going on, the simplest being "Chuck is not the Arcane Trickster in question".

[danielxcutter]

Oh, that. Well....If we go with the thread-stated standard of assuming characters know what they're talking about, if we don't assume multiclassing beyond what's stated (the main reason I brought up the scene from On the Origins of PCs), and if the Arcane Trickster in question is in fact Chuck (which would explain his comment about multiclass casters)....That would mean he's Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1, to be able to qualify for Arcane Trickster and have a level in it without having a high enough caster level to have more rays from scorching ray than shown.

Except scrying is a fourth-level spell for wizards and sorcerers, meaning a minimum caster level of 7; so simply being able to cast scrying would mean there should have been a second ray from scorching ray. So something else is going on, the simplest being "Chuck is not the Arcane Trickster in question".

The second simplest is "Haley is making a(n educated) guess as to Chuck's level". Also, scrolls are a thing. I want to say "and Arcane Trickster has Use Magic Device as a class skill", but he's already a wizard (or sorcerer) so he just has to make the caster level check.

[Ephemera]

The second simplest is "Haley is making a(n educated) guess as to Chuck's level". Also, scrolls are a thing. I want to say "and Arcane Trickster has Use Magic Device as a class skill", but he's already a wizard (or sorcerer) so he just has to make the caster level check.

Clearly he's....an Expert.

[D.One]

Jenny would have to be at least level 3 as a Bard because she uses Inspire Competence in 610.

Nice catch! Hadn't noticed that.

Also, Jenny is likely higher level than she was in On the Origin of PCs for the reasons already stated, though it's not clear if she's casting Hideous Laughter as a Sorcerer or a Bard.

From all of that, now we know the following:

Jenny
Nonlawful, Human female Rogue 1+/Bard 3+/Sorcerer 1+
Cha 11+ (required to cast Hideous Laughter as a Bard. If she had cast as a Sorcerer, it would need to be 12+)
Skills: Perform (?*) 6+ (required to use Inspire Competence)
Abilities: Bard class abilities, Rogue class abilities, Sorcerer class abilities.
Items: Harp.
Spells: Hideous Laughter.

* The "?" is here because the Bardic Music description doesn't say (at least, I didn't read it saying directly) that the Perform that the character has as prerrequisite must be the one used to implement the song, so, while it's plausible that she has Perform (string instruments) 6+, she might have fulfilled the 6+ ranks requirement with another Perform.

Yeah...I was hoping there was some value to be wrangled out of Arcane Trickster's impromptu sneak attack ability...but becoming available third level and the 3rd-level-spell prereq means he'd then cast as Wizard 8 or Sorcerer 9; and as you already noted, he'd have a second ray on scorching ray if his caster level was 7+.

I believe that Haley referred to Yellowrobes as an Arcane Trickster, but that's likely either her presuming that he'd probably gained the required levels while she was adventuring, or just being used as shorthand for Rogue/Wizard or Sorcerer. It also depends on whether "needs two more levels" referred to either Rogue or his casting class, I suppose.

I guess this warrants a citation...

Spoiler: On the Origin of PCs, page 9

Show

Wow, forgot that one too. I shall now call him Charles "Chuck" Yellowrobes.

No, I was talking about her telling Celia that "[Bozzok's]] Arcane Trickster" wouldn't be able to scry on her due to the Cloister effect.

Oh, that. Well....If we go with the thread-stated standard of assuming characters know what they're talking about, if we don't assume multiclassing beyond what's stated (the main reason I brought up the scene from On the Origins of PCs), and if the Arcane Trickster in question is in fact Chuck (which would explain his comment about multiclass casters)....That would mean he's Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1, to be able to qualify for Arcane Trickster and have a level in it without having a high enough caster level to have more rays from scorching ray than shown.

Except scrying is a fourth-level spell for wizards and sorcerers, meaning a minimum caster level of 7; so simply being able to cast scrying would mean there should have been a second ray from scorching ray. So something else is going on, the simplest being "Chuck is not the Arcane Trickster in question".

The second simplest is "Haley is making a(n educated) guess as to Chuck's level". Also, scrolls are a thing. I want to say "and Arcane Trickster has Use Magic Device as a class skill", but he's already a wizard (or sorcerer) so he just has to make the caster level check.

I believe those points aren't incompatible beetween themselves. Haley may be thinking (and talking) about Chuck, even if she thinks/knows the he can't cast Scrying yet, for two reasons: she may be counting on him using a scroll, or similar device, and/or she may be counting on him using lesser spells that are scrying (that is, that have the Scrying descriptor), but that are not Scrying, such as Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (which is 3rd level).

With that in mind, the requisites for Arcane Trickster are:

Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6.

To achieve that, a character must have at least 3 levels in Rogue and 5 levels in Wizard or 6 levels in Sorcerer.

If we assume Haley knows what she's talking about when she talks about "[Bozzok's] Arcane Trickster" (and we usually assume characters know what they are talking about, except when they are clearly wrong or contradicted by stronger evidence), if we notice she speaks about "his Arcane Trickster", singular, not "one of his Arcane Tricksters", it's highly plausible she's talking about Chuck and he has already become an Arcane Trickster.

He doesn't need the Impromptu Sneak Attack class ability to make the "Sneak Attack Acid Arrow" thing, since he was apparently hiding behind the blanket (which could negate Dex bonus to AC and enable Sneak Attack).

And since his caster level is less than 7, he can't be a Sorcerer, since a Sorcerer should be of at least 6th level to qualify, but would achieve 7th caster level with the 1st level of Arcane trickster.

If so, we have:


Charles "Chuck" Yellowrobes
Nonlawful, Human male Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1
Int 12+ (required to cast 2nd level spells)
Feats: Scribe scroll (bonus wizard)
Skills: Decipher Script 7+, Disable Device 7+, Escape Artist 7+, Knowledge (arcana) 4+.
Abilities: Sneak Attack +2d6 or more, other Rogue class abilities, Wizard class abilities, Arcane Trickster class abilities
Items: Shortsword (the sword he uses looks shorter than the one used by another character).
Spells: Mage Hand, Bull's Strength, Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray.

He must have INT 14+ or Specialization in Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation, and can't have any of those three schools as barred (if he's a Specialist).

Also, since he was able to hide from Belkar to use Sneak Attack (he wasn't flanking the Belkster), since Belkar has 0+ ranks in Spot (I say 0+ becaus he was considered to have 0 over a thousand strips ago) and a WIS 9, he must be able to beat Belkar's minimum roll on Spot (which is 0). For that, Chuck must have a modifier to Hide no lesser than 0. That's pretty easy, but still says that his ranks in Hide and DEX modifier combined must be +0 or more.

Also also, by counting the number of strikes he took to die from Belkar and Mr. Scruffy, we might be able to have an estimation of his Hp, and thus some information on his CON value and/or his total level.

Clearly he's....an Expert.

He might have some of that too...

[Schroeswald]

Per Word of Giant Jenny is CN, but the rest looks very good, I have a little personal list of characters not important enough to get entries here (most of it is stolen from previous iterations of the thread or not much of anything so I haven’t bothered to post anything besides the Team Evil people) and I’ll update mine with it.

[Kurald Galain]

Per Word of Giant Jenny is CN, but the rest looks very good, I have a little personal list of characters not important enough to get entries here (most of it is stolen from previous iterations of the thread or not much of anything so I haven’t bothered to post anything besides the Team Evil people) and I’ll update mine with it.

Well we could add some lesser characters if people like. After all, we've still got stats for Samantha and Yokyok and Jacinda, they're not exactly prominent characters either. But we would need some clear cutoff points to avoid having to list Random Goblin Who Dies In Panel Five, and TGWAH...

[Jasdoif]

I believe those points aren't incompatible beetween themselves. Haley may be thinking (and talking) about Chuck, even if she thinks/knows the he can't cast Scrying yet, for two reasons: she may be counting on him using a scroll, or similar device, and/or she may be counting on him using lesser spells that are scrying (that is, that have the Scrying descriptor), but that are not Scrying, such as Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (which is 3rd level).

Scrying appears on the bard list at 3rd level, so a quick glance might've gotten the spell level wrong for Chuck...or at least; that's the route I'd look at after "Haley means the scrying subschool", before "magic item that'd work for Jenny as well as for Chuck, leading me to question why scrying is brought up in the context of an Arcane Trickster", and well before "assuming parts of Haley's sentence are correct and assuming others are incorrect feels a lot like cherry-picking evidence". And far before "Jenny being the Arcane Trickster is an outlandish but entertaining notion", which I guess is a subset of "Chuck is not the Arcane Trickster in question".

He doesn't need the Impromptu Sneak Attack class ability to make the "Sneak Attack Acid Arrow" thing, since he was apparently hiding behind the blanket (which could negate Dex bonus to AC and enable Sneak Attack).

I kinda figure he was treated as flanked because of the two flanking him with their own sneak attacks; which I don't think is how it actually works in the rules, but which the wording in the core books could sort of condone. (Otherwise, we'd have to commit to Belkar having exactly one Barbarian level at the time, since Barbarian 2 would give him uncanny dodge and he'd retain his Dex bonus to AC against Chuck even if Chuck successfully hid)

He must have INT 14+ or Specialization in Transmutation, Conjuration or Evocation, and can't have any of those three schools as barred (if he's a Specialist).

Why is that? Arcane Trickster advances casting, so Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1 should enough base spell slots for the spells you listed earlier.

[danielxcutter]

Huh, even a wand of scrying would work. I mean, it'd be a pretty poor way of doing it, but it's possible.

[Schroeswald]

Let’s take a little stroll, what do I have, some of these are nothing and thus not being posted, like every member of the Thieves Guild is here, Gin-Jun, who’s only thing is Fallen Paladin 5+, and a few others, also, most of the good ones came from previous threads (and of them I’m pretty sure D. One made most of those):
Jirix
Hobgoblin Male, Cleric
Con ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~ 12 (no evidence racial)
Abilities: Hobgoblin racial abilities,
Skills: Speak Language: Hobgoblin
Items: Unholy Symbol, Dark Blue cape, Clipboard, Headband
Spells: Cleric spell list
I support him as a named member of Team Evil, which is why he’s been posted before.

Daigo Da-
Neutral Good Human Male unspecified soldier class 6+
Str 18+ (can carry Durkon at medium load)
Items: Katana, shield, armor, torch

Kazumi Kato
Neutral Good Human Female unspecified soldier class 2+
Dex 15+ (for two weapon-fighting)
Feats: Two-weapon fighting
Items: Katana, shield, armor, two short swords

Thanh (deceased)
Lawful Good Human Male Paladin 4+
Str 14+ (to kill a bearded devil in one hit)
Cha 12+ (can use Lay on Hands)
Abilities: Paladin class Abilities
Items: Katana, Grappling Hook,

Niu
Human Female Fighter 1+/Rogue 1
Wis 14+ or Cha or Int 15+ (to use a scroll of sending)
Skills: Use Magic Device 1+
Items: Morning Star, War Hammer, Lead Sheet, Katana

Therkla (deceased)
True Neutral Half-orc Female Ninja
Str ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Int ~ 8 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial)
Skills: Speak Language: Orc
Items: Dagger

Daimyo Kubota (deceased)
Lawful Evil Human Male Aristocrat 1+/Unknown Prestige Class 1+
Abilities: Aristocrat and unknown prestige class features
Items: +5 armor, many other magical armor increasing items

Sahah Kapoor
Human Female Ranger 2+ (for combat style
Wis 11+ (can cast a first level spell)
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting (ranger class feat)
Items: Two Kukri
Of these, I’m not really sure any of these would merit inclusion, except possibly Sahah Kapoor who I’m sure has some info we can squeeze out of her, she uses like all of the rangers class skills in GDGU, she must have something more than this.

Crystal (destroyed)
Neutral Evil Flesh Golem Female Rogue 6+/ Assassin 1-9 (total level 15+)
Str 21
Dex 9
Con n/a (undead)
Skills: Disguise: 4+, Hide: 8+, Move Silently 8+ (all assassin requirements)
Cause she’s a special flesh golem there’s a lot of stuff on her stats I can’t really be sure of.

Bozzok (deceased)
Neutral Evil Half-orc Human Rogue 19+ (can sneak attack Haley)
Str ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Con <19 (forum)
Int ~ 8 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial)
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Skills: Speak Language: Orc
Abilities: Half-orc racial abilities, Rogue class abilities
I’m pretty sure someone else made this, credit to, idk, probably D. One.

Julio Scoundrél
Chaotic Neutral Human Male, Dashing Swordsman 10 (Character Level 14+, Higher than Elan's when they met)
Str, Dex 10-11 (Average)
Con ~9 (No Evidence, Age)
Int, Wis ~11 (No Evidence, Age)
Cha 12+ (More Charisma than Strength)
Abilities: Charismatic Strike, Dramatic Instincts, Glass Damage Immunity (all Dashing Swordsman abilities)
Items: Third Party Sourcebook, At least nine different outfits

Bandana Secundus
Human female Rogue 3+
Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
Items: Adamantine short sword, dagger
Others also made these, D. One definitely made Bandana

Gannji
True Neutral Lizardfolk Male Rogue 13
Str ~12 (racial)
Con ~ 12 (racial)
Int ~8 (racial)
Skills: Speak Languge: Draconic
Feats: Combat expertise, Improved Disarm, Weapon Proficiencies: Crossbow, ranseur
Abilities: Lizardfolk racial abilities
Items: Ranseur

Enor
True Neutral Half ogre Half dragon 13
Str ~ 29 (racial)
Dex ~ 8 (racial)
Con ~17 (racial)
Int ~8 (racial)
Wis ~ 10 (racial)
Cha ~ 9 (racial)
Skills: Speak Languge: Draconic, Speak Language: Giant
Abilities: Half-dragon racial abilities, Half-orc racial abilities
Items: Large Morning Star, String of Victory

Empress of Blood
Female Adult Red Dragon 23-24 HD
Str ~ 33 (no evidence, racial and age)
Dex ~ 10 (no evidence, racial and age))
Con ~ 21 (no evidence, racial and age)
Int <10 (low intelligence)
Cha <10 (can’t cast spells due to charisma)
Age: 101-200 (Adult)
Items: A crown

Sigdi Thundershield
Female Dwarf Warrior 6+
Str ~ 9 (no evidence, age)
Dex ~ 9 (no evidence, age)
Con ~ 11 (no evidence, racial, age)
Int ~ 11 (no evidence, age)
Wis ~ 11 (no evidence, age)
Cha ~ 9 (no evidence, racial, age)
Age: 125+ (has advanced an age category in the last 55 years)
Items: Frying pan, plates, a broom, fire sword, cups, axe

Uncle “Squeaky” Thirden
Male Dwarf Bard 12+
Str ~ 9 (no evidence, age)
Dex ~ 9 (no evidence, age)
Con ~ 11 (no evidence, racial, age)
Int ~ 11 (no evidence, age)
Wis ~ 11 (no evidence, age)
Cha ~ 9 (no evidence, racial, age)
Age: 125+ (has advanced an age category in the last 55 years)
Skills: Perform: String Instruments 15+, Perform: Sing 3+
Items: Lute

I apologize for having like no sources for this, if any are needed I’ll track them down eventually probably.

[Jasdoif]

Niu
Human Female Fighter 1+/Rogue 1
Wis 14+ or Cha or Int 15+ (to use a scroll of sending)
Skills: Use Magic Device 1+

Note that a separate UMD check can substitute for an ability score requirement.

[D.One]

Scrying appears on the bard list at 3rd level, so a quick glance might've gotten the spell level wrong for Chuck...or at least; that's the route I'd look at after "Haley means the scrying subschool", before "magic item that'd work for Jenny as well as for Chuck, leading me to question why scrying is brought up in the context of an Arcane Trickster", and well before "assuming parts of Haley's sentence are correct and assuming others are incorrect feels a lot like cherry-picking evidence". And far before "Jenny being the Arcane Trickster is an outlandish but entertaining notion", which I guess is a subset of "Chuck is not the Arcane Trickster in question".

Agreed. I also prefer the "scrying subschool" route.

I kinda figure he was treated as flanked because of the two flanking him with their own sneak attacks; which I don't think is how it actually works in the rules, but which the wording in the core books could sort of condone. (Otherwise, we'd have to commit to Belkar having exactly one Barbarian level at the time, since Barbarian 2 would give him uncanny dodge and he'd retain his Dex bonus to AC against Chuck even if Chuck successfully hid)

As far as I understood, flanking is possible only in melee.

FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. [...]

As such, there would be no such thing as ranged flanking. Also, a creature flanks another creature, there's no "Flanked" condition.

By the stats we use nowadays, we still consider that Belkar has only 1 Barbarian level.

Why is that? Arcane Trickster advances casting, so Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1 should enough base spell slots for the spells you listed earlier.

That's because I made a mistake.
No need for that, except for that part of not having any of those schools as barred schools.

Kazumi Kato
Neutral Good Human Female unspecified soldier class 2+
Dex 15+ (for two weapon-fighting)
Feats: Two-weapon fighting
Items: Katana, shield, armor, two short swords

Shouldn't Kazumi be level 6+ too? The two DINGs and the dialogue imply to me that both Daigo and her advanced to 6th level.

Thanh (deceased)
Lawful Good Human Male Paladin 4+
Str 14+ (to kill a bearded devil in one hit)
Cha 12+ (can use Lay on Hands)
Abilities: Paladin class Abilities
Items: Katana, Grappling Hook,

I like this character a lot, and even made a thread to discuss about him.

My conclusions were in the line of:

Ho Thanh (deceased)
Lawful Good, human male, Paladin 4-5 (able to turn undead, couldn’t turn more than one wight, only one attack per round)
Con 3+ (Survived at least one grapple attack)
Cha 12-19 (able to use Lay on hands, couldn’t turn more than one wight)
Abilities: Paladin class abilities.
Items: Katana, armor.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious on the math for STR 14+. Also, I don't remember this grappling hook.

Niu
Human Female Fighter 1+/Rogue 1
Wis 14+ or Cha or Int 15+ (to use a scroll of sending)
Skills: Use Magic Device 1+
Items: Morning Star, War Hammer, Lead Sheet, Katana

Why only 1 level of Rogue? And couldn't she emulate the needed Ability Score with UMD? (Ninja'ed here by the Wise Banana )

Bozzok (deceased)
Neutral Evil Half-orc Human Rogue 19+ (can sneak attack Haley)
Str ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Con <19 (forum)
Int ~ 8 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial)
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Skills: Speak Language: Orc
Abilities: Half-orc racial abilities, Rogue class abilities
I’m pretty sure someone else made this, credit to, idk, probably D. One.

Thanks, but I've only discussed Bozzok briefly until now, as far as I can remember.

Bandana Secundus
Human female Rogue 3+
Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
Items: Adamantine short sword, dagger
Others also made these, D. One definitely made Bandana

Thanks again, but I also only discussed her briefly. Someone else must have concluded the Rogue 3+, because, as far as I remembered, I had her pegged at "Rogue 1+, total level 2+"



All that said, I've been avoiding the (no evidence, racial) thing for ability scores, in order to save space and not write what is really a "non-information".

[Jasdoif]

As far as I understood, flanking is possible only in melee.
....
As such, there would be no such thing as ranged flanking. Also, a creature flanks another creature, there's no "Flanked" condition.

Yes, that would be the "don't think is how it actually works in the rules" part. It'd be along the same lines as how movement only provokes a single attack of opportunity from an attacker no matter many threatened squares are crossed, and yet. (Which doesn't pass muster for the thread, but you're the only one who can set standards on your thought exercise that this started as o_o )

[Schroeswald]

Shouldn't Kazumi be level 6+ too? The two DINGs and the dialogue imply to me that both Daigo and her advanced to 6th level.

Possibly, I believe in some reading of old threads I heard people talking about how welcome only meant Daigo, but I’m definitely not against saying both.

I like this character a lot, and even made a thread to discuss about him.

My conclusions were in the line of:

Ho Thanh (deceased)
Lawful Good, human male, Paladin 4-5 (able to turn undead, couldn’t turn more than one wight, only one attack per round)
Con 3+ (Survived at least one grapple attack)
Cha 12-19 (able to use Lay on hands, couldn’t turn more than one wight)
Abilities: Paladin class abilities.
Items: Katana, armor.

I'm curious on the math for STR 14+. Also, I don't remember this grappling hook.

The grappling hook was here (at least, I’m pretty sure that’s what you call that). The math for STR 14+ was that a bastard sword is d10 damage, crit that we have a 20, and a Bearded Devil (which is what he killed with it) has 6d8+18, or min of 24, to make up that 4 he’d need a +2 modifier, as 1.5 times 1 times 2 is 3, which gives him Str 14+ (I think all this is right).

Why only 1 level of Rogue? And couldn't she emulate the needed Ability Score with UMD? (Ninja'ed here by the Wise Banana )

Because she only had one when Haley last saw her, but she probably could have gotten another level since then. And, yeah, I must have missed that.

Thanks, but I've only discussed Bozzok briefly until now, as far as I can remember.





Thanks again, but I also only discussed her briefly. Someone else must have concluded the Rogue 3+, because, as far as I remembered, I had her pegged at "Rogue 1+, total level 2+"

For Bozzok, eh, someone did it, might as well attribute it to someone whose done a lot of this stuff. As for Bandana, we assume singleclassing so she would need three rogue levels to get to whatever HP total she needed IIRC.

[Emanick]

If we can find the reference for "throwing +1 rings of protection in the trash", then that would imply that for every member of the party, at least one of two things is true: They already have a Ring of Protection, or they already have two unspecified other rings that they prefer to +1 AC.

Vaarsuvius, we know, has a Ring of Wizardry, which e would probably be correct to value more than the AC, but we don't know anything about another ring for em, nor (I think) about anyone else's rings.

I agree with this. The reference for the "throwing +1 ring of protection in the trash" is one of the very first bonus strips in War and XPs, the one where Belkar and Roy are talking in a hotel room.

[Reboot]

Possibly, I believe in some reading of old threads I heard people talking about how welcome only meant Daigo, but I’m definitely not against saying both.

You can only 'welcome' someone to a place you already are.

[InvisibleBison]

You can only 'welcome' someone to a place you already are.

You can welcome someone to a place that you have just arrived at with them.

[Reboot]

You can welcome someone to a place that you have just arrived at with them.

True, but I was essentially responding to the idea she could be as low as L2.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, that would be the "don't think is how it actually works in the rules" part. It'd be along the same lines as how movement only provokes a single attack of opportunity from an attacker no matter many threatened squares are crossed, and yet. (Which doesn't pass muster for the thread, but you're the only one who can set standards on your thought exercise that this started as o_o )

Well, this was during the early strips, where Durkon calculating his attack rolls and damage properly killed a goblin retroactively, and Roy outright says he got a C- in his Attacks of Opportunity class in the strip you've linked, so...

[D.One]

I agree with this. The reference for the "throwing +1 ring of protection in the trash" is one of the very first bonus strips in War and XPs, the one where Belkar and Roy are talking in a hotel room.

The main information I get from the "throwing +1 ring of protection in the trash" thing is that either most party members had, by that point, their ring slots filled with better choices (not
necessarily better rings of protection, just better choices for them), or most party members already had, by that point, equal or better deflection bonus granters. That alone says little to compare to the Shield of Faith statement we have here.

I don't like to go with the idea that Minrah and Belkar are strategizing with casting Shield of Faith while that would be useless due to he already having a better deflection bonus. The Order has done plenty inneficient choices in the past, sure, but that was usually for comedic purposes, or highlighting poor thought choices. Here, they are planning ahead of time, so I assume they are taking into account things like "I already have deflection bonus".

With that in mind, I see two possibilities:

1) Belkar has a deflection bonus to AC that is lower than what Shield of Faith cast by Minrah would grant him (or even doesn't have any, if all those rings of protection +1 were tossed in the trash because he had other kinds of rings he thought were better use of his fingers). If this is true, let's keep in mind that Minrah's spell can grant him something beetween +2 and +4 deflection bonus (I find it hard to believe she would be a 18th level character to give a +5 bonus). Even the possibility of +4 is somewhat a stretch, because that requires her to have a caster level of 12, and even if we assume Praticed Spellcaster, that still requires her to be at least a 12th level character (and at least an 8th level caster), which puts her very close to some Order members. Possible, but not likely, IMO.

2) Belkar has a deflection bonus to AC equal (or even slightly higher) than what Minrah's spell can grant him, but they thought trading that for another thing in the slot and getting the deflection from the spell was worthwhile.

As we can see, we lack at least one component to get conclusions from the Shield of Faith thing. With more information on Belkar's itens, maybe we could deduce something about Minrah's caster level. With more information on Minrah's caster level, maybe we could deduce something about Belkar's itens.

The grappling hook was here (at least, I’m pretty sure that’s what you call that).

No, I call this a Hook that Grapples. (and that instantly filled my mind with Munchkin-like jokes about grappling hooks).

In seriousness, I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for the pick (the hook, I mean, you got it ). (You see why I love Minrah?)

The math for STR 14+ was that a bastard sword is d10 damage, crit that we have a 20, and a Bearded Devil (which is what he killed with it) has 6d8+18, or min of 24, to make up that 4 he’d need a +2 modifier, as 1.5 times 1 times 2 is 3, which gives him Str 14+ (I think all this is right).

The main problem here is that this doesn't take into account the possibility of a magical weapon. I don't think he's got anything in the lines of a Holy Avenger, but even a +1 weapon complicates the calculations, and the Bane and Holy properties also strike me as possibilities that make the matters harder.

Also, Bearded Devils have DR 5/silver or good, and that makes the calculations a little harder.

Also also, we haven't seen Ho Thanh cast spells, and there's a discussion over if he could or coud not do that by that time, but since he was at least level 4, he was just a WIS 12+ away from having 1 spell slot that could give him Bless Weapon (which would help him overcome that DR) or Magic Weapon (that would turn a normal weapon into a +1 one).

Also also also, there are feats. Power Attack comes into mind, but Power attack would actually be more of a solution than a problem, because it would establish his STR as 13+.

Ok, now I remember where I got stuck while calculating Ho Thanh's STR score.


I - Worst case scenario (him having the minimum resources possible, which means no feats, no spells, no magical or even silver weapon):

He must overcome that 5 DR and dish at least 24 points of damage in one strike. That means 29 points of damage, which means a damage modifier of at least +5 with a critical strike, which brings us to STR 18+.


II - Best case scenario (him having the best feats, spells, and magical weapon possible):

He has Power Attack (couldn't think of anything else in SRD that would affect damage without doing the insane "give him FTR 4 and Weapon Specialization" stuff, so no, just Power Attack) and has a +5 Collision Holy 'Evil Outsider Bane' Weapon (Holy Overpowered Weapon, Batman!!! ).

If he has Power Attack, his STR is already 13+. Since he's at most 5th level, his maximum damage bonus with Power Attack is +5 (+10 with two hands, +20 on a critical).

That Overweapon bypasses Bearded Devil's DR, and adds a maximum of +36 points of damage (+48 on a critical).

This scenario has him causing a maximum of 90 points of damage in a critical with only the minimum (for Power Attack) STR of 13, which can one-shot even a maximum Hp Bearded Devil (In fact, with maximum damage it can one-shot it even without a critical strike).



I myself believe the truth is somewhere beetween those extreme scenarios, leaning more towards the "Worst Case" one, but with still some resources that make the calculation uncertain.

[Seward]

Also, do you have the reference for him referring to tossing Rings of Protection in the trash? I don't remember that particular line.

304a "It's the Economy Stupid"

Bonus strip in War and XPs

to quote Belkar:

"All of us staying in the priciest inn in town for a month would cost less than a single ring of protection+1. And I threw the last one of those we found in the trash".

This would indicate the Order has at least a ring+1 on any free ring fingers for every member. It does not imply they have a ring+2 available - Ring+1 costs 2k, Ring+2 8k and it is not at all uncommon for adventurers to get a cheap ring early and never upgrade it, because of how armor costs scale

(Masterwork armor 300gp. +1 adds 1k. +2 is 3k more and before doing this folks often pick up a ring+1 and amulet of natural armor+2 for 2k each. +3 armor costs 5k more than +2 armor, still cheaper than upgrading a ring or amulet...and if you carry a shield like Durkon does you can buff that too.)

There is also the fact that cheap "always on" armor class items are pretty worthwile but they also do the job ok, and if you need more AC without spending more cash, hitting your cleric up for magic vestment most of the time and shield of faith right before kicking down the door lets you spend your big money on your weapon (ie your reason for existing as a physical combatant).

So I don't find it surprising that Minra's shield of faith is a worthwile buff. Even at its base +2 level, it's better than a cheap +1 ring that is possibly all Belkar has. I'd guess her to be high enough level to bump it to +3, but that doesn't change my opinion one way or another on whether Belkar has a +2 or better ring. My thought is probably not. If he's only now upgrading to a vest of resistance+3 he probably is still in the "raise armor to +3" level on defensive AC and isn't spending big on deflection or natural armor items.

====
As a side note, many characters never get a ring of protection because they want ring slots for other stuff, or are tanking AC entirely so don't want to spend cash on it, although in a campaign where found stuff doesn't cost you full like it does in Living Greyhawk or Pathfinder Society I'd actually assume nobody would throw away a +1 ring unless everybody who could use it already had one. So yeah, I'd assume everybody in the Order has a +1 ring unless they have two ring slots accounted for.

[Peelee]

304a "It's the Economy Stupid"

Bonus strip in War and XPs

to quote Belkar:

"All of us staying in the priciest inn in town for a month would cost less than a single ring of protection+1. And I threw the last one of those we found in the trash".

This would indicate the Order has at least a ring+1 on any free ring fingers for every member.

I think you might be making an overly charitable assumption about Belkar in that last sentence there...

[InvisibleBison]

This would indicate the Order has at least a ring+1 on any free ring fingers for every member.

No, it would indicate that everyone in the Order who Belkar cares about (which is to say, Belkar) has a ring that in Belkar's opinion is better than a ring of protection +1.

[MultitudeMan]

No, it would indicate that everyone in the Order who Belkar cares about (which is to say, Belkar) has a ring that in Belkar's opinion is better than a ring of protection +1.

It also indicates that Belkar didn't really understand the fungibility of money, or was so lazy that he couldn't be bothered to sell spare loot for cash!

[b_jonas]

Or the ring of protection was cursed, and Belkar, not being able to cast spells, didn't understand at the time that Durkon could have uncursed it and it would have been worth more than the cost of the inn after that.

[Seward]

Or the ring of protection was cursed, and Belkar, not being able to cast spells, didn't understand at the time that Durkon could have uncursed it and it would have been worth more than the cost of the inn after that.

Given that Roy in no way reacted to Belkar's description of his wasteful action, then the safe assumption is that nobody in the party needed a +1 ring, and that the 1000gp he lost by not selling it for cash at half value was a rounding error on their current loot/wealth by level etc and thus not a big enough deal to get excited about. (divided by 6 it is about the same cost to an average party member as a second level scroll or three potions of cure light wounds...which is pretty trivial when Roy is about level 14 at the time)

If we're making up that the ring was cursed we're now in the realm of adding stuff to the story that isn't there in the text.

I'm not saying the text proves everybody has at minimum +1 ring, but it is actually more likely than most of the alternative possibilities (nobody actually has both ring slots filled that I know of). I'd say it absolutely indicates that Belkar has a +1 ring at least, since he's got a free finger slot and he's a frontline fighter so he'd value it if he didn't have one already (or some similar item that provided a +1 deflection value, but given any other slot is 2x the cost...it is less likely than just having the ring)