Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[D.One]

Given that Roy in no way reacted to Belkar's description of his wasteful action, then the safe assumption is that nobody in the party needed a +1 ring [...]

... or wanted one. As I said before, they may have another rings they consider more valuable for whatever reasons. This is a hypothsis as reliable as assuming they have +1 rings.

I'm not saying the text proves everybody has at minimum +1 ring, but it is actually more likely than most of the alternative possibilities (nobody actually has both ring slots filled that I know of). I'd say it absolutely indicates that Belkar has a +1 ring at least¹, since he's got a free finger slot² and he's a frontline fighter so he'd value it if he didn't have one already (or some similar item that provided a +1 deflection value, but given any other slot is 2x the cost...it is less likely than just having the ring)

1 - Possible? Sure. Reasonable? No doubt. "Absolutely indicates"? Not so much. He may already have a +1, or even a +2 or more ring, but he may also have another ring he values more (such as the Ring of Jumping +20 we know he has).

2 - It's really hard to tell if he (or any of them, by the way) has or has not any ring slot free, because Stick Figures. We know Belkar has one Ring of Jumping, we know V has one Ring of Wizardry. Besides that, we only know what they say or imply, and about their ring slots, that's nothing (or close to nothing, I may be forgetting something).

My point is: your reasoning is, excuse me for the lack of a better word, reasonable, but we have no proof, at least not enough proof for the thread's standards.

[Seward]

My point is: your reasoning is, excuse me for the lack of a better word, reasonable, but we have no proof, at least not enough proof for the thread's standards.

Given that we are assigning Favored Enemy Human based entirely on Rich's interview about a similar character he played that had Favored Enemy Human (he didn't say Belkar had that) there is some wiggle room for probability.

Basically my argument is that it is just as implied that Belkar has a +1 or better ring by his discussion with Roy as it is implied that he has Favored Enemy Human by Rich's aside about a character he played that was somewhat similar to Belkar.

Obviously you disagree. But at some point this thread does allow implied abilities if no other alternative explanation makes sense and nothing contradicts it. Beklar's effective enough against humans that humans being one of his favored enemies makes sense, aside from Rich's interview. But unlike Undead (where his threat to Durkula strongly implied he picked it up during his time in Azure City resistance) there is actually nothing in the strip that implies it at all directly.

Frankly I think the interaction means that it is highly probable that Roy, Belkar, Haley and Elan at least have a +1 ring or better. Durkon and V might be arrogant enough to rely entirely on spells but a +1 ring is so cheap at level 14, it is so common a choice in actual play (just like nobody at L14 is using nonmagical armor unless they have class restrictions preventing it) and it is so BORING a choice that it probably gets no airtime that alternative explanations are pretty damn unlikely (it explains why nobody in the party has had two rings show up on-camera, only "interesting" rings get mentioned)

But I do accept that it is possible Belkar is so selfish he might throw away a ring Elan could use, say. So the probability Elan has a +1 ring is lower than Belkar having a +1 ring. But the odds both have it are very high.

It is just where you draw the line in probability. I think the evidence is certainly strong enough for Belkar and probably for everybody else until something contradicts it. You disagree. I don't know how many people have to agree with an opinion on a thread like this to change the statblock, so probably nothing will change unless others chime in to support my point of view, or until some comic strengthens the case one way ort he other.

[danielxcutter]

I can imagine that the Order doesn’t have much in magical items like that, but at the same time, the things they kill at this level should be dropping Rings of Protection +1 and whatnot like piñatas! Haley at the very least almost certainly does; she looted Crystal’s magic jewelry as well as her dagger, and the odds of an item with a deflection bonus not being included are slightly less than the odds of Belkar not tearing your face off if you harm Mr. Scruffy.

[D.One]

I vaguely remember this being discussed before, but can't remember how that ended. Do we ever determined which kind of Bag of Tricks does Roy have? Visuals alone, it should be Tan. The one-time Rhinoceros joke would support that, but the other animals he produces are more in line with a gray one, if I remember correctly.

[Jasdoif]

I vaguely remember this being discussed before, but can't remember how that ended. Do we ever determined which kind of Bag of Tricks does Roy have? Visuals alone, it should be Tan. The one-time Rhinoceros joke would support that, but the other animals he produces are more in line with a gray one, if I remember correctly.

Note that the rhinoceros appears in a comic titled "Don't Question the Color of the Bag".

[D.One]

Note that the rhinoceros appears in a comic titled "Don't Question the Color of the Bag".

Didn't remember that.

[Jasdoif]

Didn't remember that.

Yeah, the comic titles are like that...at least now you can see them on the bottom of the comic's page online, instead of needing to cross-reference the full listing on the archive page.

[MultitudeMan]

I think Laurin's entry needs updating. We know that she has Int of 18+, as she can manifest Matter Manipulation. Also, this is the evidence that she is Psion 15+, whereas her entry lists Craft Psionic Arms as evidence, yet this feat only actually requires manifester level 5.

[Jasdoif]

Also, this is the evidence that she is Psion 15+, whereas her entry lists Craft Psionic Arms as evidence, yet this feat only actually requires manifester level 5.

As I recall, "maximal efficiency enhancements" is being read as "+5"; which would require a manifester level of 15 (as psionic weapons adhere to the caster level rules for magic weapons).

[MultitudeMan]

As I recall, "maximal efficiency enhancements" is being read as "+5"; which would require a manifester level of 15 (as psionic weapons adhere to the caster level rules for magic weapons).

OK, agreed, but then it's still not the feat that gives the evidence of Psion 15+, it's her crafting of a +5 weapon. The fact that, in addition, it's a Collision weapon happens also to be evidence of Psion 15+.

[danielxcutter]

OK, agreed, but then it's still not the feat that gives the evidence of Psion 15+, it's her crafting of a +5 weapon. The fact that, in addition, it's a Collision weapon happens also to be evidence of Psion 15+.

She did have an orange prism ioun stone... but yeah, sounds right. I personally headcanon the Vector Legion as around CR 15~16 anyways.

[MultitudeMan]

As Redcloak cast Magic Vestment on himself in panel 5 of this strip, can we conclude that his armour has an enhancement bonus of less than +4? That's what his Magic Vestment provides at level 17, and he prides himself on rationality and logic, so wouldn't use a level 3 spell slot to provide no benefit.

[danielxcutter]

As Redcloak cast Magic Vestment on himself in panel 5 of this strip, can we conclude that his armour has an enhancement bonus of less than +4? That's what his Magic Vestment provides at level 17, and he prides himself on rationality and logic, so wouldn't use a level 3 spell slot to provide no benefit.

If it was a +2 or +3 enhancement it wouldn’t be that great of a slot use either; there’s a very good chance that it only has a +1 bonus at most and it has other magical properties. He could also be wearing non-magical armor - Durkon does that, for example - and spent his gold on other, more important items (like a high-end Periapt of Wisdom).

[Quartz]

As I recall, "maximal efficiency enhancements" is being read as "+5"; which would require a manifester level of 15 (as psionic weapons adhere to the caster level rules for magic weapons).

Could it also be a subtle hint that she is not Epic? I'm assuming you allow Knowledge (Psionics) to substitute for Knowledge (Arcana) for Epic feats.

[Jasdoif]

Could it also be a subtle hint that she is not Epic? I'm assuming you allow Knowledge (Psionics) to substitute for Knowledge (Arcana) for Epic feats.

Or that she doesn't have the (assuming such is available in OotS world) epic feat required, or that Tarquin wouldn't pay the sizable gold cost, or that Tarquin couldn't convince her to pay the experience cost, or....The whole "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" thing, basically.

[MultitudeMan]

Has the idea that Redcloak could be a Cloistered Cleric ever been discussed on this thread? I've never seen him hold a weapon, or make a melee attack, and he has ranks in two different Knowledge skills that aren't normally Cleric class skills.

[danielxcutter]

Has the idea that Redcloak could be a Cloistered Cleric ever been discussed on this thread? I've never seen him hold a weapon, or make a melee attack, and he has ranks in two different Knowledge skills that aren't normally Cleric class skills.

I dunno, pretty sure that armor he’s wearing is full plate.

[MultitudeMan]

I dunno, pretty sure that armor he’s wearing is full plate.

I agree that it doesn't look like any of the core Light armours, but I could imagine it being Breastplate; I think Roy's wearing that rather than Heavy armour, otherwise his Endurance feat wouldn't have any effect on sleeping in armour without getting fatigued. I guess we then have to ask what's more likely; Redcloak spending a feat on Armor Proficiency (Medium) as a Cloistered Cleric, or taking two cross-class knowledge skills and never entering melee as a standard Cleric. I suppose I also see his geekery as being more indicative of the Cloistered Cleric mindset.

[danielxcutter]

When V suggests retreating into the rift, Roy says he has heavy armor.

[MultitudeMan]

When V suggests retreating into the rift, Roy says he has heavy armor.

Interesting, I don't remember that, do you have a strip reference?

[Peelee]

Interesting, I don't remember that, do you have a strip reference?

No, because when V suggests retreating into the rift, Roy's objection is the Snarl purportedly destroys souls and it's too risky.

He mentions the heavy armor when Haley suggests retreating into the rift.

[danielxcutter]

Oh yeah, right. That confirms he wears heavy armor, then.

By the way, do we have info on Tarquin’s armor besides the glamered property? It’s got to be light armor at least if he can use Evasion while in it, but we can’t say if it’s any specific kind of armor because of said property; it could be anything from thistledown padding to mithral chainmail and we’d be none the wiser.

[MultitudeMan]

He mentions the heavy armor when Haley suggests retreating into the rift.

OK, but how do we reconcile this with his sleeping in armour? I don't think Roy has changed armour, the art has remained consistent, but is there an armour enchantment that could resolve this? It could be a house rule, I guess, but I always find that an unsatisfactory result in this thread.

[danielxcutter]

OK, but how do we reconcile this with his sleeping in armour? I don't think Roy has changed armour, the art has remained consistent, but is there an armour enchantment that could resolve this? It could be a house rule, I guess, but I always find that an unsatisfactory result in this thread.

Are we sure he wasn’t fatigued? The trust he had in the other members (aside from Durkon and to a lesser extent V) was pretty low, and it would certainly explain why he was always so grumpy.

Or I dunno, mithral?

[Quebbster]

Are we sure Roy means "Heavy armor, the game term", and not "armor that is Heavy"?

[MultitudeMan]

Are we sure Roy means "Heavy armor, the game term", and not "armor that is Heavy"?

Yeah, I was wondering if that would work, as even the Armor Check on Breastplate is still -4, and we don't know that Roy has ranks in Swim. It's a STR-based skill, which would help him, but he could be in "Medium Armor" that is still too heavy to go swimming safely for an indefinite amount of time.

[MultitudeMan]

So, what do we do with V's casting of Phantasmal Force? It's not a 3.5 edition legal spell, as far as I know, though I understand it's in 5e, and was in earlier editions. Do we add it to his spell list?

Edit: Also, do we think Elan is using Ghost Sound, or does he need something higher level to produce music?

[Peelee]

So, what do we do with V's casting of Phantasmal Force? It's not a 3.5 edition legal spell, as far as I know, though I understand it's in 5e, and was in earlier editions. Do we add it to his spell list?

Edit: Also, do we think Elan is using Ghost Sound, or does he need something higher level to produce music?

It's not a 3.5 core spell. It's totally a 3.5 legal spell.

[MultitudeMan]

It's not a 3.5 core spell. It's totally a 3.5 legal spell.

Ah, OK, my Google-fu must be failing me, as D&D Tools doesn't list it, nor does a generic search. Is it automatically legal due to being in an earlier edition, or is it in a sourcebook that I haven't found?

[knag]

So, what do we do with V's casting of Phantasmal Force? It's not a 3.5 edition legal spell, as far as I know, though I understand it's in 5e, and was in earlier editions. Do we add it to his spell list?

Edit: Also, do we think Elan is using Ghost Sound, or does he need something higher level to produce music?

I don't know a source for Phantasmal Force, but I'll throw out there that the music could alternatively be a Minor Image without any visual component (or with the visual component being the notes floating around above their heads.)