Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Emanick]

Yeah, I did some fairly extensive searching and couldn't find a 3.x source for Phantasmal Force, so presumably we should list it in V's spellbook as a spell of unknown level - maybe 0th or 1st, given its apparent effects here.

[Quartz]

Silent Image fits the bill nicely and V is known to already have it. That V calls it Phantasmal Force is likely just a hold-over.

Note that Silent Image in #750 is not explicitly named.

[Reboot]

Yeah, I did some fairly extensive searching and couldn't find a 3.x source for Phantasmal Force, so presumably we should list it in V's spellbook as a spell of unknown level - maybe 0th or 1st, given its apparent effects here.

Surely, it's at least equivalent to the 1st level Silent Image?

Looking at the pre-3.5e versions at https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2012/...al-forces.html [where the spell is said to have "ping-ponged around different levels more than any other spell in the game (initially 2nd, then 3rd, then 1st)"], the main common link differentiating it from Silent Image appears to be that they can cause damage - actual (lethal in 3.5e terms) in earlier editions or illusionary (non-lethal) in later editions if you fail to disbelieve it. Meanwhile, Phantasmal Killer is still in 3.5e SRD, giving a Will Save to disbelieve (no damage); then if that's failed, a Fortitude Save to avoid death (with 3d6 of lethal damage on a passed save).

The other X Image spells of similar level in 3.5e are Minor Image (2nd, Silent Image+limited sound) and Major Image (Silent Image+full sound, smell & heat illusion). None of these X Image spells can cause damage, lethal or otherwise.

Putting these together, I'd say that to be meaningfully distinct from the Image line, Phantasmal Force has to retain the potential for damage - probably with the dual Will+Fort saves of Killer - but not an instakill like Killer, even on a double-failed save. So 2nd or 3rd level depending on what sort of damage it can do, higher than Silent Image (since it can clearly duplicate that, unless the range is hugely reduced) but lower than Phantasmal Killer. The only wrinkle there is that P-Killer is Instantaneous, while V indicates they can alter this while in use, like the Image line.

Also, the source for V having Silent Image at all is a silent strip. Quite possibly they used Phantasmal Force there instead.

[Peelee]

Ah, OK, my Google-fu must be failing me, as D&D Tools doesn't list it, nor does a generic search. Is it automatically legal due to being in an earlier edition, or is it in a sourcebook that I haven't found?

Imean, it's legal in the same way the Assassin Ball, a spherical creature I just invented which is made up of nine butts that attacks by ramming into its enemies and has a Fear aura that makes all enemies run away as it rolls towards them is legal.

D&D is a hell of a game.

[Reboot]

Silent Image fits the bill nicely and V is known to already have it. That V calls it Phantasmal Force is likely just a hold-over.

Figment (Silent/etc Image) and Phantasm (e.g., Phantasmal Killer) are different sub-schools of Illusion.

[Emanick]

Surely, it's at least equivalent to the 1st level Silent Image?

Thanks for pointing that out. I was thinking that there was a cantrip equivalent of 5e's Minor Illusion in 3.x, but evidently I was getting my editions confused. It really is awfully inconvenient to follow OOTS and my own personal 5e campaign at the same time. (Especially because I tend to use Minor Illusion to do exactly what V just did with my own wizard characters.)

I still want to say that it's 1st level, based on that being the most recent antecedent, as well as the fact that V would be more likely to use Silent Image or to let Haley give oral intelligence if the alternative was burning a slot higher than 1st level. But it's certainly not clear-cut.

[Ephemera]

I second the notion that Elan could be using minor image here. Totally within character to be burning a 2nd-level spell to make a joke, especially one that enhances dramatic effect...

Heck in OotS-world, making the exposition more dramatic probably gives plot bonuses.

[MultitudeMan]

Silent Image fits the bill nicely and V is known to already have it. That V calls it Phantasmal Force is likely just a hold-over.

Note that Silent Image in #750 is not explicitly named.

Good point, so should we just ask Kurald Galain to replace Silent Image with Phantasmal Force in V's spell list?

I second the notion that Elan could be using minor image here. Totally within character to be burning a 2nd-level spell to make a joke, especially one that enhances dramatic effect...

Heck in OotS-world, making the exposition more dramatic probably gives plot bonuses.

I third this, particularly given the visible notes.

[Kurald Galain]

So, what do we do with V's casting of Phantasmal Force?

Phantasmal Force is the 1E/2E name for Silent Image. You can find this in the free 2E-to-3E conversion manual. This is the same as 5E's Silent Image spell; 5E also has a Phantasmal Force spell that is unrelated (and doesn't match what is depicted in comic 1197).

[Reboot]

Phantasmal Force is the 1E/2E name for Silent Image. You can find this in the free 2E-to-3E conversion manual.

Not exactly. While the spell had been nerfed already by 2E, 2E Phantasmal Force retained a chance to kill you, whereas 3.5E Silent Image is a Figment sub-school spell and as such forbidden from causing any sort of damage, except through indirect means such as disguise.

Meanwhile, 3.5E Phantasm sub-school spells (e.g., Phantasmal Killer) can absolutely still kill you, and work slightly differently overall (they project images straight into the brain of a subject or subjects, rather than a 'hologram' perceivable by anyone). With a name like "Phantasmal Force", you would expect it to be in the Phantasm sub-school, not Figment...

[MultitudeMan]

OK, so does the use of this spell mean that V has been around for at least one edition conversion before the one pictured in strip #1? That V was originally in 2nd edition, or maybe even 1st, within the OOTSverse?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, if Haley's father was a 1st Edition thief, and he's younger than Vaarsuvius, it's no real stretch of the imagination to say they started under 2E rules.

I mean, we all know the real story is Rich ignores the ruleset as much as possible these days, but the above works.

[knag]

Well, if Haley's father was a 1st Edition thief, and he's younger than Vaarsuvius, it's no real stretch of the imagination to say they started under 2E rules.

I mean, we all know the real story is Rich ignores the ruleset as much as possible these days, but the above works.

This is inconsistent with #340. V states that when they chose their barred schools, Teleport was in the Transmutation school. In 3.5 it was changed to Conjuration. In 2nd Edition, Teleport is in the Alteration school (the equivalent of 3e Transmutation). Furthermore barred schools (called Opposition Schools) are not chosen in 2e, but rather are fixed based on the specialty as those diametrically opposed to the school on the Schools of Magic diagram.

So based on the fact that V chose their barred schools, and that one of the schools of magic was called Transmutation, we know for a fact that V began 1st level as 3e Evoker.

I suppose if you want they could have started their career as some sort of 2e class that could cast Phantasmal Force, and then multi-classed as a 3e Evoker after the universal laws were revised for 3e.

Then again maybe V is actually an Expert.

edit: also Elves can't be Invokers in 2e.

[Shale]

I'm just going to assume Aarindarius had some 2e or earlier spellbooks in their study and that's what V learned the spell from.

[danielxcutter]

I believe Lauren’s Wormhole power is from 2e Dark Sun anyways, so... yeah.

[Ephemera]

Then again maybe V is actually an Expert.

Clearly, this.

[Grey Watcher]

So based on the starter post, I assume we have no evidence as to what Durkon's domains would be? (I was idly curious and was surprised that it doesn't seem to be listed.) Are all of his (named) spells from the standard Cleric list?

[Jasdoif]

So based on the starter post, I assume we have no evidence as to what Durkon's domains would be? (I was idly curious and was surprised that it doesn't seem to be listed.) Are all of his (named) spells from the standard Cleric list?

You're probably missing the reference to the Good domain because it's mentioned in a really odd place...Durkon's used holy smite, which isn't on the standard cleric list.

It's unclear what his other domain is; presumably it's connected to Thor's lightning somehow....

[JumboWheat01]

I can easily see Thor's Lightning being a re-flavored Chain Lightning, and even though Weather Control is on the standard cleric list, it does seem to be something of Thor's domain, which would make the second one Air if so.

Limiting to the SRD, of course. it may not be SRD.

[Schroeswald]

I can easily see Thor's Lightning being a re-flavored Chain Lightning, and even though Weather Control is on the standard cleric list, it does seem to be something of Thor's domain, which would make the second one Air if so.

Limiting to the SRD, of course. it may not be SRD.

However in its first appearance (and IIRC several others) it matches up with Call Lightning, which is a lower level Druid spell which is not in any domain.

[hamishspence]

However in its first appearance (and IIRC several others) it matches up with Call Lightning, which is a lower level Druid spell which is not in any domain.

Plus, in the Dungeon Crawling Fools's intro, Durkon actually casts with the words "Call Lightning" rather than "Thor's Lightning".

It's speculated that he may have something oddball - Weather Domain, or possibly a custom one.

I can easily see Thor's Lightning being a re-flavored Chain Lightning

As mentioned a few threads back:

here maleck states it's a 3rd level spell, so lightning bolt would b more appropriate. i don't know what domain, if any, fits that.

the one used against Malack was 3rd level, and functioned most like Lightning Bolt.

Possibly Durkon has several lightning-based spells, and usually calls them "Thor's lightning" - with the DCF intro scene being a rare case where he uses the spell's actual name.

[JumboWheat01]

My search has lead me to the Storm Domain which has Call Lightning and Weather Control, but not any other lightning spells of note, instead it has things like Sleet Storm and Ice Storm. I think it was in a Faerun splat.

Edit: Indeed it is. Player's Guide to Faerun, pg.91.

[dsollen]

So based on the starter post, I assume we have no evidence as to what Durkon's domains would be? (I was idly curious and was surprised that it doesn't seem to be listed.) Are all of his (named) spells from the standard Cleric list?

As mentioned earlier one of the domains is good.

I couldn't find it with a quick search, but I do recall that awhile ago someone did a pretty through analysis of domains based off of spells cast in the Draketooth's pyramid back. If I recall correctly they were looking at the number of high level spells cast in the day and it was determined that at least one of them must be a domain spell, then they looked at which domains provided one of those spells cast that day.

Anyways from that the individual got a list of 4 or 5 potential domains for Durkon's second domain, and most of them were pretty obscure. However, one of the domains was Healing. Given that all the other options were obscure and didn't fit Durkon at all, and that he does appear to play as a Healbot most of the time, my personal head cannon is that Durkon's other domain is Healing, it just fits him so perfectly. However, since there were other options, no matter how obscure, we couldn't definitively say that was the case.

Perhaps if someone could do a similar analysis on other big fight scenes to see if there are any other days where we can deduce that he must have been using a domain spell based off of his maximum spells cast, and then we could see rather we could further narrow down the domain based off of potential domain spells cast on each day, but that seems quite a bit of work and I'm way too lazy to do it!

Until then Durkon will be my Good loving Healbot in my headcannon :)

[Ephemera]

As mentioned earlier one of the domains is good.

I couldn't find it with a quick search, but I do recall that awhile ago someone did a pretty through analysis of domains based off of spells cast in the Draketooth's pyramid back. If I recall correctly they were looking at the number of high level spells cast in the day and it was determined that at least one of them must be a domain spell, then they looked at which domains provided one of those spells cast that day.

Anyways from that the individual got a list of 4 or 5 potential domains for Durkon's second domain, and most of them were pretty obscure. However, one of the domains was Healing. Given that all the other options were obscure and didn't fit Durkon at all, and that he does appear to play as a Healbot most of the time, my personal head cannon is that Durkon's other domain is Healing, it just fits him so perfectly. However, since there were other options, no matter how obscure, we couldn't definitively say that was the case.

Perhaps if someone could do a similar analysis on other big fight scenes to see if there are any other days where we can deduce that he must have been using a domain spell based off of his maximum spells cast, and then we could see rather we could further narrow down the domain based off of potential domain spells cast on each day, but that seems quite a bit of work and I'm way too lazy to do it!

Until then Durkon will be my Good loving Healbot in my headcannon :)

I think what we concluded was that all of the SRD explanations were sufficiently convoluted that's really likely he has some kind of custom (or maybe splatbook) domain, and if he has a Thor domain then it becomes hard for say way his second domain is either.

It might be that we just discarded healing because it's so sub-optimal a domain to take, which isn't usually a reason for us to discard anything at all.

[danielxcutter]

Literally all the spells from that domain are also on the standard list.

[DaOldeWolf]

I am sorry for interrupting the converstion of this topic. My knowledge on 3.5 is almost completely non-existant and I might be making a foolish assumption here (since I am basing it on my knowledge of pathfinder) but shouldnt Durkon´s stat be 16-21? I am basing this on the fact that the 14-19 stats he had was calculated on what he could carry in earlier books. Since, it has been added to his items that he has a belt of giant strength that he adquired on the last book, shouldnt his stat increase accordingly to at least the lowest amount a belt of giant strength should give?

I hope I make my point clearly since english is not my first language and once again I apologize for the interruption. I am just wondering about this.

[danielxcutter]

The lowest an actual Belt would have given is +4, actually, not including custom items, and the Hammer of Thunderbolts causes it to stack with the Gauntlets. Also that previous estimate may have included Bull’s Strength or Divine Power; I don’t know because I wasn’t there then.

[Peelee]

I am basing it on my knowledge of pathfinder

Oh trust me, you have a pretty good grasp on 3.5 then.

[danielxcutter]

Oh trust me, you have a pretty good grasp on 3.5 then.

I mean, it’s not called 3.P or 3.75e for nothing.

[Chronos]

Whatever Durkon's second domain is, it must be something with at least one lightning spell in it of some sort, because there's nothing that even vaguely resembles Thor's Lightning on the standard cleric list. It's a spell that he has because he's specifically a cleric of Thor, and that's what domains represent. We're probably not going to be able to figure out what the precise domain is, because it's portrayed so inconsistently, and it may well be a custom domain. But there are a whole lot of domains that we know it isn't.

Oh, and also, whatever domain it is must also include Control Winds, which also isn't on the cleric list.

And the spell that Vaarsuvius cast to show the terrain can't have been a phantasm spell, despite the name, because it's seen by everyone present, who all see it the same way. A phantasm wouldn't work that way. Everything we've seen with it points to it being a standard 1st-level Silent Image, with an archaic name.