Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Peelee]

Oh, and also, whatever domain it is must also include Control Winds, which also isn't on the cleric list.

Control Winds can not be a domain spell.

[Ephemera]

Also, because we don't know if his second domain is a custom one, we also don't know what his first domain is, since he could be getting spells from the domain we don't know...

[hamishspence]

Holy Smite is Good domain only

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySmite.htm

IMO it's fairly safe to assume that a custom domain wouldn't have it, because it's so aligned.

Which is why Durkon's entry currently presumes that he at least has that one, and that it's only the other domain that is uncertain.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Maybe it's the Thor's Tempest Domain, a hypothetical homebrewed subdomain of the Air Domain with a few spells replaced with lightning spells and with all of the lightning spells being reflavored as "Thor's Lightning." Or something.

[Chronos]

Quoth Peelee:

Control Winds can not be a domain spell.

There are two ways to parse that statement, and I'm not sure which you meant, but neither is correct. It can be a domain spell, because the Air Domain has it. It can't be anything other than a domain spell, because the only lists it's on are the Air Domain and druid. So the only possibilities are, it's in Durkon's domain, or Durkon multiclassed nine levels of druid. Or I suppose that the Giant houseruled it onto the base cleric list, but then, he could have done that with Thor's Lightning, too: That way lies the end of this thread.

[Peelee]

There are two ways to parse that statement

Three ways; Durkon didn't have it prepared, so by definition of domain spells, it can not have been a domain spell.

ETA: Maybe I should have specified "for Durkon."

[DaOldeWolf]

The lowest an actual Belt would have given is +4, actually, not including custom items, and the Hammer of Thunderbolts causes it to stack with the Gauntlets. Also that previous estimate may have included Bull’s Strength or Divine Power; I don’t know because I wasn’t there then.

So, depending on how hiw strenght stat was calculated at the time, Durkon might potentially have a 18-23 str as a minimum. Can anyone answer the point brought up by danielxcutter about how his strenght was calculated to see if a change to Durkon strength stat might be possible?

Oh trust me, you have a pretty good grasp on 3.5 then.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Chronos]

3rd edition, remember. Domain spells are not automatically prepared. Durkon didn't prepare Control Winds because he prepared the 5th level spell from his other domain, instead.

[Peelee]

3rd edition, remember.

Comic hasn't been third since the first half of strip 0001. V has two banned schools, Belkar's weapons shrunk, and I see no reason why Durkon's domain spells wouldn't be treated as always prepared.

[Kelenius]

And the spell that Vaarsuvius cast to show the terrain can't have been a phantasm spell, despite the name, because it's seen by everyone present, who all see it the same way. A phantasm wouldn't work that way. Everything we've seen with it points to it being a standard 1st-level Silent Image, with an archaic name.

Unless it was targetting the entire party.

[Reboot]

Comic hasn't been third since the first half of strip 0001. V has two banned schools, Belkar's weapons shrunk, and I see no reason why Durkon's domain spells wouldn't be treated as always prepared.

Reason:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm
With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot

[Peelee]

3rd edition, remember. Domain spells are not automatically prepared.

Reason:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm
With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot

That'll teach me to read better.

[Ephemera]

Holy Smite is Good domain only

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySmite.htm

IMO it's fairly safe to assume that a custom domain wouldn't have it, because it's so aligned.

Which is why Durkon's entry currently presumes that he at least has that one, and that it's only the other domain that is uncertain.

I agree that by the standards of this thread (particularly the part where we try to find core explanations until they get too implausible), it makes sense to list Good. I was just saying that since his other domain may very well be a custom one, we can't totally rule out the possibility that the Thor domain (or whatever it is) grants Holy Smite, in which case we'd know nothing. I'm certainly not advocating for removing anything though.

[TooSoon]

Hi. I'm a long time reader, and I had a couple of questions about Xykon's level. I've read the faq about it, etc, and I get that it's possible to contrive various elaborate explanations about why his level is not confirmed as beyond 21+, but it seems to me that if we apply the same standard of evidence to Xykon as we do to the other characters then he should be listed as a higher level. For instance, when you see a character like Roy or Miko or whoever do 4 attacks per round, you would use that as evidence that he's at level XYZ. I've seen that used on these forums to peg character levels. Nobody says "well, maybe someone cast a backdated 3.0 Haste spell on Roy, or maybe Roy had an item that gave him extra hits per round", even though those sorts of explanations are plausible too. Wouldn't Occam's razor mean that, until such obscure counter evidence emerged, you'd treat the character as being at the appropriate level they seem to be? Saying "well they could have had an invisible metamagic rod!" seems disingenuous, especially when that stuff is usually displayed on panel. I'm just curious why the same standard isn't being applied.

Aside: Just leaving aside this thread for a moment, it seems very clear to me Xykon is way over level 21. He has 3 Epic level spells, some of which have insanely high DCs for a level 21 character, and has apparently crafted an item capable of making him immune to fire (and arguably bunt force damage too). He was also level 19+ waaaaaay back when he was a human fighting Lirian. I'm not suggesting we use this last stuff as evidence, I'm just saying the narrative seems to align with the Occam's razor interpretation of the rules.

[danielxcutter]

Nobody says "well, maybe someone cast a backdated 3.0 Haste spell on Roy, or maybe Roy had an item that gave him extra hits per round", even though those sorts of explanations are plausible too. Wouldn't Occam's razor mean that, until such obscure counter evidence emerged, you'd treat the character as being at the appropriate level they seem to be? Saying "well they could have had an invisible metamagic rod!" seems disingenuous, especially when that stuff is usually displayed on panel. I'm just curious why the same standard isn't being applied.

I would argue that "backdated 3.0e Haste" is even more disingenuous due those rules explicitly not being in play since the first strip. If nothing else, 3.5e Haste still grants an extra attack.

Aside: Just leaving aside this thread for a moment, it seems very clear to me Xykon is way over level 21. He has 3 Epic level spells, some of which have insanely high DCs for a level 21 character, and has apparently crafted an item capable of making him immune to fire (and arguably bunt force damage too). He was also level 19+ waaaaaay back when he was a human fighting Lirian. I'm not suggesting we use this last stuff as evidence, I'm just saying the narrative seems to align with the Occam's razor interpretation of the rules.

Where does he "bunt" force damage? I've never seen that before, and even if that happens somewhere I'm willing to bet that's due to Shield granting immunity to Magic Missile. If you're talking about not being turned into bonemeal by the Crushing Hand, that's because the damage it deals is still far less than the hitpoints of an epic lich.

Having three epic spells doesn't automatically mean anything either, besides having Epic Spellcasting. Cloister would have been learned from Dorukan's stuff, and knowing three epic spells isn't the same as having three epic spell slots.

[TooSoon]

I would argue that "backdated 3.0e Haste" is even more disingenuous due those rules explicitly not being in play since the first strip. If nothing else, 3.5e Haste still grants an extra attack.



Where does he "bunt" force damage? I've never seen that before, and even if that happens somewhere I'm willing to bet that's due to Shield granting immunity to Magic Missile. If you're talking about not being turned into bonemeal by the Crushing Hand, that's because the damage it deals is still far less than the hitpoints of an epic lich.

Having three epic spells doesn't automatically mean anything either, besides having Epic Spellcasting. Cloister would have been learned from Dorukan's stuff, and knowing three epic spells isn't the same as having three epic spell slots.

Well, there are also explicitly backdated spells in this comic too, and level 3.0 stuff that exists, so is it anymore disingenuous than "hey, it could be another obscure, unseen thing?"

The blunt force damage I'm referring to is from the Still Meteor Swarm. He takes it at point blank range along with the fire. Assumedly he'd need to have crafted an item/s that render him immune to both, and the damage isn't trivial even to an Epic Lich given the level V would have been operating at (but he says he's immune to the damage, not "it doesn't hurt much). Cloister might have been designed by Dorukan, but Xykon still needs to meet the DC etc to learn it himself, and that DC is insanely high (I think I saw someone do a calculation for it, but I have no idea where).

Just my 2 cents.

[Schroeswald]

From vague memories of my ye olde thread read through, the reason Xykon is only listed at 21+ is because of his estimation that like 7-9 levels between him and Roy is reasonable (which with the 27+ that the other option is makes him think 18-20 is a reasonable level for him) and Durkon's ability to dispel Xykon's invisibility, which he really shouldn't be able to do at 21, definitely not 27.

[Peelee]

There is nothing to indicate Roy was Hasted other than the extra attack. Also, the extra attack is a natural feature of Roy's class, as opposed to the unnatural features Xykon showcases which can be explained in a variety of alternate ways (and I strongly suspect he has the Metamagic Specialist sorcerer ACF).

Also, let's all stop calling things disingenuous.

[TooSoon]

From vague memories of my ye olde thread read through, the reason Xykon is only listed at 21+ is because of his estimation that like 7-9 levels between him and Roy is reasonable (which with the 27+ that the other option is makes him think 18-20 is a reasonable level for him) and Durkon's ability to dispel Xykon's invisibility, which he really shouldn't be able to do at 21, definitely not 27.

I think the Durkon thing is just Rich handwaving, because it's impossible with Xykon's level at the time, since we know he was Epic and Durkon wasn't high enough to dispel it based on his level at that time. Or if you want an explanation; we never saw Xykon cast invisibility, so maybe someone else did, or he used a scroll or item, etc.

It seems to me that it's basically about the preferences people have for which assumptions apply. The guy who posted after you said "I strongly suspect X is true", personally I strongly suspect the opposite. Neither hunch should matter IMO. I just wonder if the usual rule assumptions are being applied consistently. Using Occam's razor it seems to me one should assume Xykon is above 21 due to all the evidence people have noted, rather than constructing elaborate scenarios for how he might not be. Nobody is doing that for people like Roy or Miko based on the number of attacks per round, etc, even though such explanations could be found. The most logical and straightforward inference seems to be he did all those things because he actually is above level 21, which I think fits into the narrative structure too as I noted. Alot of elaborate explanations need to be constructed to argue Xykon is only level 21 (an obscure/unseen item/ability to explain the maximized energy drain, an elaborate explanation for crafting an item immune to Still Meteor Swarm, unclear explanations about how he can cast such high level Epic spells, etc), whereas "Xykon is above level 21" answers all those questions and is the most likely and obvious way for him to do all those things IMO.

[Peelee]

It seems to me that it's basically about the preferences people have for which assumptions apply. The guy who posted after you said "I strongly suspect X is true", personally I strongly suspect the opposite. Neither hunch should matter IMO.

And neither hunch does; only what can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt* makes it in, from what I can see.

ETA:

Using Occam's razor it seems to me one should assume Xykon is above 21 due to all the evidence people have noted,
[snip]
Alot of elaborate explanations need to be constructed to argue Xykon is only level 21 (an obscure/unseen item/ability to explain the maximized energy drain, an elaborate explanation for crafting an item immune to Still Meteor Swarm, unclear explanations about how he can cast such high level Epic spells, etc), whereas "Xykon is above level 21" answers all those questions and is the most likely and obvious way for him to do all those things IMO.

Xykon is listed as 21+, so he is listed as above level 21. Do you have a recommendation on what specific number he should be put at, with a preponderance of evidence** to back it up?

*to borrow a phrase
**to borrow a competing phrase. Why not, I like the assymetry.

[TooSoon]

I am sure there are people on here much more expert than me, so I don't want to be the guy who says which option we should go with. I just feel that it should be opened up to debate again, and the experts on here should come to a conclusion as which is the most appropriate level above 21. Personally I'd guess 27+ is the most straightforward, as it would solve all the problems I alluded to at once, but I'll let the discussion on here go where it may as to other numbers. Alternatively, what is the lowest level Xykon could be to craft an item that makes him immune to all the effects of meteor swarm (fire and bludgeoning)? The DCs are too vague to pinpoint an exact level, and that "lowest" level on normal working assumptions would likely be above 27, but they do lend evidence to the fact that 21 is just too low.

[CriticalFailure]

Does Cykon even have invisibility as a spell? Using scrolls makes a lot of sense for that.

[b_jonas]

Does [Xykon] even have invisibility as a spell? Using scrolls makes a lot of sense for that.

Also to TooSoon. A scroll would make sense, and it would explain how Durkon could dispel it. But Xykon almost certainly has Greater Invisibility, because the spell list from #670 says "Grea" after "Animate Dead", and we don't know of any other level 4 sorcerer spell that starts with "Grea".

[TooSoon]

I'd put it this way. Let's say in the next comic, we saw V cast Quickened Cone of Cold. I feel confident everyone here would say "well, looks like V hit 9th level spells". Nobody would say "V might have had an invisible rod of metamagic tho" or "perhaps V took an obscure feat to do it". It seems to me that the most straightforward assumption should be made, per Occam's razor, rather than looking for less likely alternatives. The balance of probabilities, which a previous poster alluded to, would tell us V has gotten to level 17. I don't see why we can't apply the same logic to Xykon using Maximized Energy Drain. The most obvious reason is he's level 27, using 12th level slots to do it. Just as with V, where we'd say "yeh, that fits the story too", we can do the same with Xykon:
- Xykon can somehow craft an item that makes him immune from the dual effects of Meteor Swarm (or Meteor Swarm itself), the most straightforward way would peg him at well over 21.
- Xykon can cast at least 3 Epic spells, the standard ones have DCs that seem too high for a level 21 Sorcerer, while the homebrew one has been calculated to have a DC that is much higher still.
- The guy was level 19+ about 30 years ago when he was still human, and has been going on numerous adventures since.
- Even as a kid Xykon seemed unusually high levelled for his age.

Instead of trying to come up with loopholes to get out of each of these other explanations, it seems the balance of probabilities is that he actually is over level 21; the most straightforward explanation is also the most likely, namely that he's level 27+. The only counter evidence is Durkon dispelled a spell we a) don't know Xykon even has, b) that we never saw Xykon even cast, and c) that it's impossible for Durkon to dispel under the literal rules anyway, so who cares it's probably being handwaved.

[danielxcutter]

Rationally, it probably makes sense that at least most of the abilities he's shown are purely from an incredibly high character level. To be honest, though, having Xykon's CR that higher than the Order feels... weird for me. In a strict encounter level-based evaluation, it should be virtually impossible for the Order to beat Xykon on his own, let alone with the rest of Team Evil backing him up. Even if Redcloak and the MitD both turn on him... he'll still need to be weakened considerably for the OotS to even have a chance. That might be why we try to lower his level somehow.

[TooSoon]

Rationally, it probably makes sense that at least most of the abilities he's shown are purely from an incredibly high character level. To be honest, though, having Xykon's CR that higher than the Order feels... weird for me. In a strict encounter level-based evaluation, it should be virtually impossible for the Order to beat Xykon on his own, let alone with the rest of Team Evil backing him up. Even if Redcloak and the MitD both turn on him... he'll still need to be weakened considerably for the OotS to even have a chance. That might be why we try to lower his level somehow.

That's not really fair to Xykon though is it? He should get the same reasoning applied as everyone else does. What's the big deal having an overpowered bad guy? He's already obviously overpowered anyhow given how badly optimized the OOTS is, at this point it's much of a muchness. If MiTD is what some people think it is, then Xykon and Redcloak combined couldn't beat it either, never mind the Snarl. I don't think a story with overpowered characters has to be a bad one; just look at One Punch Man, or certain arcs of Dragonball. All I'm asking is we apply the same consistent reasoning to Xykon as would to the other characters from OOTS.

[danielxcutter]

That's not really fair to Xykon though is it? He should get the same reasoning applied as everyone else does. What's the big deal having an overpowered bad guy? He's already obviously overpowered anyhow given how badly optimized the OOTS is, at this point it's much of a muchness. If MiTD is what some people think it is, then Xykon and Redcloak combined couldn't beat it either, never mind the Snarl. I don't think a story with overpowered characters has to be a bad one; just look at One Punch Man, or certain arcs of Dragonball. All I'm asking is we apply the same consistent reasoning to Xykon as would to the other characters from OOTS.

Here's the thing... Xykon is the antagonist. He's got to be defeated somehow. If his CR is 8 or more higher than the Order, such a fight is classified as so impossible that the DMG doesn't even supply proper XP to get from winning the fight. In OPM, the protagonist is the most overpowered character, and most of the time the plot doesn't revolve around his fighting. In DBZ, the protagonists end up as OP as the villains. Neither are likely in the case of OotS.

I do suppose it's still not entirely impossible for the Order to defeat him, though. We don't know quite how powerful the MitD is, but both Redcloak and the MitD turning on Xykon should lower the effective Encounter Level. If the Order ambush him after Team Evil does a door dash, that would also tip the odds towards the Order. And that's not even counting unrevealed factors, like the IFCC's plans or the World in the Rifts, which the Order might be able to exploit.

Oh, by the way, assuming his "immunity to fire" item isn't a Ring of Fire Immunity - which requires a character level of at least 32 - and the debated abilities are all from epic feats, his minimum character level is 26, as epic sorcerers get bonus feats at 23rd and every three levels afterwards. Enough for Improved Spell Capacity(3) and Epic Spellcasting. CR 28 is still incredibly more powerful than the OotS should take on, even as a "final boss", but with the aforementioned possible factors that might not be unsurmountable odds. Plus, this is a story, not a game.

[TooSoon]

Here's the thing... Xykon is the antagonist. He's got to be defeated somehow. If his CR is 8 or more higher than the Order, such a fight is classified as so impossible that the DMG doesn't even supply proper XP to get from winning the fight. In OPM, the protagonist is the most overpowered character, and most of the time the plot doesn't revolve around his fighting. In DBZ, the protagonists end up as OP as the villains. Neither are likely in the case of OotS.

I do suppose it's still not entirely impossible for the Order to defeat him, though. We don't know quite how powerful the MitD is, but both Redcloak and the MitD turning on Xykon should lower the effective Encounter Level. If the Order ambush him after Team Evil does a door dash, that would also tip the odds towards the Order. And that's not even counting unrevealed factors, like the IFCC's plans or the World in the Rifts, which the Order might be able to exploit.

Oh, by the way, assuming his "immunity to fire" item isn't a Ring of Fire Immunity - which requires a character level of at least 32 - and the debated abilities are all from epic feats, his minimum character level is 26, as epic sorcerers get bonus feats at 23rd and every three levels afterwards. Enough for Improved Spell Capacity(3) and Epic Spellcasting. CR 28 is still incredibly more powerful than the OotS should take on, even as a "final boss", but with the aforementioned possible factors that might not be unsurmountable odds. Plus, this is a story, not a game.

If that's how you feel, then the comic is already ruined; Xykon was at least level 21 in the first story arc, and he was defeated by a level 9 single class fighter. That's even more implausible than level 17-19 characters defeating a character with a CR rating 8 higher, and it already happened and the comic is still a good read. I say 17-19 because the Order might well be that level by the time they actually have a final showdown with Xykon. Maybe the MiTD is a monster with an even higher CR than Xykon, who can crush him (that seems extremely possible btw).

I just don't think it's fair to apply a different line of reasoning for Xykon; his stats should be determined in the same way as the rest of the OOTS. Again, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if 26 or 27 or 28 or 32 is the correct number to use, but it seems clear to me 21+ isn't consistent with the way other characters stats are calculated.

[danielxcutter]

If that's how you feel, then the comic is already ruined; Xykon was at least level 21 in the first story arc, and he was defeated by a level 9 single class fighter. That's even more implausible than level 17-19 characters defeating a character with a CR rating 8 higher, and it already happened and the comic is still a good read. I say 17-19 because the Order might well be that level by the time they actually have a final showdown with Xykon. Maybe the MiTD is a monster with an even higher CR than Xykon, who can crush him (that seems extremely possible btw).

I should mention that Roy specifically mentions that as a fluke that can’t be replicated again. That would be a weakening factor - this time Redcloak and/or the MitD turning on him would probably count as such.

Also when the Hel did I say it would be ruined???!!!

I just don't think it's fair to apply a different line of reasoning for Xykon; his stats should be determined in the same way as the rest of the OOTS. Again, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if 26 or 27 or 28 or 32 is the correct number to use, but it seems clear to me 21+ isn't consistent with the way other characters stats are calculated.

I get what you mean, but there really are things that throw off the calculations. While it does make more sense for Xykon to just be that powerful, Sudden Still and Sudden Maximize do exist. It’s why we don’t have Tarquin marked as having Swordsage levels or why Laurin’s discipline isn’t specified.

[Chronos]

The ring is no big deal. All you need for immunity to Meteor Swarm, practically speaking, is a ring of fire resistance 30, which is comfortably non-epic. Yeah, it's not complete immunity, but it's immunity to almost all sources of fire damage, and almost-immunity to the rest. Close enough for him to call it "immunity".