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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    The ring is no big deal. All you need for immunity to Meteor Swarm, practically speaking, is a ring of fire resistance 30, which is comfortably non-epic. Yeah, it's not complete immunity, but it's immunity to almost all sources of fire damage, and almost-immunity to the rest. Close enough for him to call it "immunity".
    Yeah, that's true. Maybe not even a ring, but the biggest drawback of Meteor Swarm is that even a small amount of fire resistance negates a large amount of damage. Well, that and the typical "allows a save and SR", but that's the case for most blasting spells anyways. And I've heard it's good for blasting large amounts of mooks. I doubt Xykon's fought many enemies that were resistant to both Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain, besides Soon Kim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    If
    I just don't think it's fair to apply a different line of reasoning for Xykon
    That isn't happening though. You yourself seem to agree that we cannot lock down a higher specific minimum level for Xykon other than 21; any other number would be a guess at best. And nobody's level is based on a guess.

    "21+" does not mean he's level 21. I don't think anyone in this thread believes he's only level 21. Level 21 is simply the highest we can set the floor at the moment.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 07:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That isn't happening though. You yourself seem to agree that we cannot lock down a higher specific minimum level for Xykon other than 21; any other number would be a guess at best. And nobody's level is based on a guess.

    "21+" does not mean he's level 21. I don't think anyone in this thread believes he's only level 21. Level 21 is simply the highest we can set the floor at the moment.
    I suppose the Haste point was a good one, at least. Speed weapons are a thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I suppose the Haste point was a good one, at least. Speed weapons are a thing.
    Except there are visible effects of being magically sped up, as we saw with Haley and Crystal.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except there are visible effects of being magically sped up, as we saw with Haley and Crystal.
    That was only after the art shift; V casts Haste during the slaver fight and later during the Linear Guild round 3 fight and there weren't any afterimages then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That isn't happening though. You yourself seem to agree that we cannot lock down a higher specific minimum level for Xykon other than 21; any other number would be a guess at best. And nobody's level is based on a guess.

    "21+" does not mean he's level 21. I don't think anyone in this thread believes he's only level 21. Level 21 is simply the highest we can set the floor at the moment.
    I think you've slightly misread me here. It's not that we can't lock down what his floor above 21 is, it's just that there are multiple options to pick from. I am open to any of the numbers suggested by people here, which include 26, 27, 28 and 32, with different reasoning. I think the debate should be which of those numbers represents the right floor, and we should then stick a + after it, to indicate it could be higher. To me Level 27 seems the appropriate way to calculate it, in line with how other OOTS characters are getting calculated, but I'm open to any of those other numbers. What I don't really think is fair is to peg him as only 21+, which some people admit they are pushing because it "seems weird" that he'd be so high. What I did say was we can't pinpoint it using his Epic Spells, because the DC is too uncertain to use as a level calculator, but the Epic spells form supporting evidence to back up the other evidence I cited, all of which suggests Xykon being around level 27 or higher isn't inconsistent with the story narrative at all. Quite the reverse.

    Again; if V used Quickened Cone of Cold next comic, everyone here would nod and agree he had hit level 17. Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain should get the same treatment. You can construct elaborate scenarios for why both wouldn't apply, but like V (or the examples I gave of Roy or Miko) we shouldn't do that, we should apply Occam's Razor and go with the most likely one until there is evidence to the contrary. The item that grants immunity to meteor swarm and the DC of his Epic Spells also support the Occam's razor approach to him being level 27.

    As for the Ring; can this non-epic ring be crafted to provide full immunity to both fire and bludgeoning damage? I'm genuinely not sure, but I'm guessing the answer is no.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 08:18 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    I think you've slightly misread me here. It's not that we can't lock down what his floor above 21 is, it's just that there are multiple options to pick from. I am open to any of the numbers suggested by people here, which include 26, 27, 28 and 32, with different reasoning. I think the debate should be which of those numbers represents the right floor, and we should then stick a + after it, to indicate it could be higher. To me Level 27 seems the appropriate way to calculate it, in line with how other OOTS characters are getting calculated, but I'm open to any of those other numbers. What I don't really think is fair is to peg him as only 21+, which some people admit they are pushing because it "seems weird" that he'd be so high. What I did say was we can't pinpoint it using his Epic Spells, because the DC is too uncertain to use as a level calculator, but the Epic spells form supporting evidence to back up the other evidence I cited, all of which suggests Xykon being around level 27 or higher isn't inconsistent with the story narrative at all. Quite the reverse.

    As for the Ring; can this non-epic ring be crafted to provide full immunity to both fire and bludgeoning damage? I'm genuinely not sure, but I'm guessing the answer is no.
    One, spells are not subject to DR. Two, you can make the spheres blow up without using them to deal bludgeoning damage - I presume it comes from the spheres hitting the target in the face.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    One, spells are not subject to DR. Two, you can make the spheres blow up without using them to deal bludgeoning damage - I presume it comes from the spheres hitting the target in the face.
    As I read it, when the meteors miss and explode nearby, you only take fire damage and not bludgeoning damage. In this case the meteors are exploding at point blank range against your body. It feels to me like you'd get bludgeoning damage, but I guess it'd be up to the DM. What level does Xykon need to be to craft an item that grants true immunity to just fire though?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    As I read it, when the meteors miss and explode nearby, you only take fire damage and not bludgeoning damage. In this case the meteors are exploding at point blank range against your body. It feels to me like you'd get bludgeoning damage, but I guess it'd be up to the DM. What level does Xykon need to be to craft an item that grants true immunity to just fire though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ye Olde Peelee's SRD
    If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 2d6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target.
    (emphasis mine)

    To be fair, I didn't notice the "if struck no saving throw against the fire damage" clause until now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    (emphasis mine)

    To be fair, I didn't notice the "if struck no saving throw against the fire damage" clause until now.
    Like I said, it'd be up to the DM I guess, but personally I feel if something explodes on impact at skin level you were "struck" by it. It's D&D but any vague correlation to real world physics would lead to that result too. If the impact happens at ground zero on your body...

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That was only after the art shift; V casts Haste during the slaver fight and later during the Linear Guild round 3 fight and there weren't any afterimages then.
    Roy has fought since the art shift.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    As for the Ring; can this non-epic ring be crafted to provide full immunity to both fire and bludgeoning damage? I'm genuinely not sure, but I'm guessing the answer is no.
    From the FAQ,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
    We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Roy said the sword made him faster; considering that Speed weapons only give the extra attack benefit of Haste I’m willing to headcanon that. :p
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Level 21 is simply the highest we can set the floor at the moment.
    Eh? Surely (I'm not calling you "Shirley"), 21 is the lowest we can set the floor, and that's why it's so low, because it could be higher, but if it was it wouldn't be the lowest it could be.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Eh? Surely (I'm not calling you "Shirley"), 21 is the lowest we can set the floor, and that's why it's so low, because it could be higher, but if it was it wouldn't be the lowest it could be.
    Back in the day, there was a website called Score Hero. It was to try to find the 4- and 5-star cutoffs in the Guitar Hero games. The way it worked was you took a picture of the song completion screen, which logged your score and stars, and submitted it. There was a floor and a ceiling, and the goal was to raise the floor and lower the ceiling until there was a 1-point difference, which would give you the exact cutoff. This was incredibly difficult to do, as you had to figure out exactly where and how to mess in up very specific ways during the song. But to get the most accurate result, you wanted the lowest ceiling possible and the highest floor possible. Where the floor and ceiling meet is where the actual result lies. Kind of like a much lamer version of the sandwich theorem. The goal was to get the highest floor possible.

    21 is the highest floor so far. It is almost certainly not the absolute floor, but we don't know what that is, so that is the highest floor so far.

    Also all this reminiscing got me to wonder if the site is still up. It's gone through radical changes, which makes sense since the original mission is long since obsolete, but it still has me recorded as setting the absolute floor on the 5-star cutoff for Crazy On You. I was frighteningly good at Guitar Hero.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 10:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Eh? Surely (I'm not calling you "Shirley"), 21 is the lowest we can set the floor, and that's why it's so low, because it could be higher, but if it was it wouldn't be the lowest it could be.
    Nope, the floor is any level we know he's at least that high.

    The floor can be set at 1, he started as human, they always have at least 1HD.

    The floor can be set at 11, he became a lich, that needs level 11.

    The floor can be set at 21, he's used epic magic. That's the highest we can set the floor, because epic casters can do anything with a bit of optimization.

    21 is the highest we can set the floor.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Nope, the floor is any level we know he's at least that high.

    The floor can be set at 1, he started as human, they always have at least 1HD.

    The floor can be set at 11, he became a lich, that needs level 11.

    The floor can be set at 21, he's used epic magic. That's the highest we can set the floor, because epic casters can do anything with a bit of optimization.

    21 is the highest we can set the floor.
    I shoulda just stayed silent you answered it much simpler and shorter than I.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    From the FAQ,
    It can be crafted by you to make you immune to fire and bludgeoning damage? At level 14? Surprising if true... is it though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    It can be crafted by you to make you immune to fire and bludgeoning damage? At level 14? Surprising if true... is it though?
    The notion that Xykon should be immune to bludgeoning contradicts both his speech in #653 and the spell description for Meteor Swarm.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Nope, the floor is any level we know he's at least that high.

    The floor can be set at 1, he started as human, they always have at least 1HD.

    The floor can be set at 11, he became a lich, that needs level 11.

    The floor can be set at 21, he's used epic magic. That's the highest we can set the floor, because epic casters can do anything with a bit of optimization.

    21 is the highest we can set the floor.
    The point is that the floor is the lowest. There is no basement in this. The facts do not allow the floor to be set lower then 21. We could theoretically set it lower, if we had different information, or good reason to believe the information we have is somehow misleading.

    I agreed with Peelee's original description, however I thought he said it in a potentially confusing way, and we certainly seem to have one confusee amongst us. If we had different information the floor could maybe go up, but at this point in time it needs to be as low as it is.

    If you've played a game with a confusing nomenclature that I haven't, bully for you, but that doesn't make that nomenclature correct, no offence intended.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    The funny thing here is I originally wrote that it was the lowest floor and, on re-reading it, thought, "no, that's not right" and changed it.

    But yeah the point is to set the floor as high as we can, because that's where the true answer is. The floor is as high as we can get it now. It needs to go higher, but we don't know where to set it at.

    The floor is not at its highest ever. It's the highest we can peg at the moment.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 03:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Leaving aside the ring for a moment; if V used quickened cone of cold next comic, would anyone seriously dispute V was level 17? I don't see why Xykon doesn't get the same treatment everyone else does.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Leaving aside the ring for a moment; if V used quickened cone of cold next comic, would anyone seriously dispute V was level 17? I don't see why Xykon doesn't get the same treatment everyone else does.
    Is there a viable ACF V could have which would allow him to do this whole not being level 17?

    Again, if you have an absolute number above 21 that you can make a case for, what is that number and what is your case?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is there a viable ACF V could have which would allow him to do this whole not being level 17?

    Again, if you have an absolute number above 21 that you can make a case for, what is that number and what is your case?
    Sure. V could have an invisible metamagic rod, or an obscure feat, of the same varieties mentioned in the FAQ about Xykon. I chose this hypothetical because it's an apples to apples comparison, unlike other analogous situations (eg Roy/Miko attacks per round, etc). If V would be considered level 17 based on this, shouldn't Xykon be considered 27+?

    My view would be 27+ is the most straightforward level for Xykon. The most straightforward, balance of probabilities assumption under Occam's razor being that they used higher slots to cast higher spells.

    Since I answered your question, can you please do the same for mine? If V did this next panel, would you personally advocate him being level 17?
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 09:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is there a viable ACF V could have which would allow him to do this whole not being level 17?

    Again, if you have an absolute number above 21 that you can make a case for, what is that number and what is your case?
    I don't think there are any ACFs for that. Sudden Quicken or Metamagic Specialist(evocation) could help with that, though. Nobody's going to argue that if V uses a Clenched Fist, though.

    I think part of the problem is that since Xykon hasn't had that much screentime actually fighting in a way that shows his feats, we can't pin them down. It's unlikely that all of his metamagic feats are of the Sudden variety, but there isn't enough concrete evidence that they aren't, and that's not how this thread works.

    Speaking of which, why does Xykon have Dodge listed as a feat? Why can't that just be Darth Vaarsuvius rolling bad enough on their attack roll to miss?

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Sure. V could have an invisible metamagic rod, or an obscure feat, of the same varieties mentioned in the FAQ about Xykon. I chose this hypothetical because it's an apples to apples comparison, unlike other analogous situations (eg Roy/Miko attacks per round, etc). If V would be considered level 17 based on this, shouldn't Xykon be considered 27+?

    My view would be 27+ is the most straightforward level for Xykon. The most straightforward, balance of probabilities assumption under Occam's razor being that they used higher slots to cast higher spells.

    Since I answered your question, can you please do the same for mine? If V did this next panel, would you personally advocate him being level 17?
    Actually, I wouldn't. Assuming, of course, if V doesn't explicitly mention they have 9th-level slots in that strip. I don't think we're arguing that V using an actual 9th-level spell, such as Disjunction, would still be ambiguous, though.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of the "invisible metamagic rod" theory either. The feat theory works good enough for me to accept the possibility, but I don't think it's the most likely scenario. Regardless, there is insufficient concrete evidence to suggest otherwise - just a gut feeling or headcanon isn't enough.

    We are not going for "most straightforward" or even "most likely" - we're going for indisputable ranges that cannot be explained in any other way.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2020-04-11 at 09:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't think there are any ACFs for that. Sudden Quicken or Metamagic Specialist(evocation) could help with that, though. Nobody's going to argue that if V uses a Clenched Fist, though.

    I think part of the problem is that since Xykon hasn't had that much screentime actually fighting in a way that shows his feats, we can't pin them down. It's unlikely that all of his metamagic feats are of the Sudden variety, but there isn't enough concrete evidence that they aren't, and that's not how this thread works.

    Speaking of which, why does Xykon have Dodge listed as a feat? Why can't that just be Darth Vaarsuvius rolling bad enough on their attack roll to miss?
    Actually V has already used Clenched Fist. I assume you meant Crushing Hand.

    I don't agree Xykon hasn't had enough screentime. He's had tonnes of screen time, and has cast hundreds of spells across the comic and books. We have almost his complete spell list! This idea we can't pin it down I just don't buy at all. I specifically gave a bunch of examples to show how him being level 27+ actually fits with a lot of the other stuff we've seen.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 09:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Actually V has already used Clenched Fist. I assume you meant Crushing Hand.
    Oh yeah, that. I keep getting the Bigby's Hand line confused.

    I don't agree Xykon hasn't had enough screentime. He's had tonnes of screen time, and has cast hundreds of spells across the comic and books. We have almost his complete spell list! This idea we can't pin it down I just don't buy at all. I specifically gave a bunch of examples to show how him being level 27+ actually fits with a lot of the other stuff we've seen.
    I said enough screentime that details his feats. Casting Energy Drain does not say anything about his feats. Casting Maximized Energy Drain does, or at least that he has some way of Maximizing it. Knowing his spell list does not mean knowing his feats.

    Edit: Oh, and I have been mentioning that Xykon, as an epic Sorcerer, would get bonus feats. Even if we assume that Xykon has three Improved Spell Capacities and Epic Spellcasting as epic feats, he only needs to be level 26+.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2020-04-11 at 09:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Sure. V could have an invisible metamagic rod, or an obscure feat, of the same varieties mentioned in the FAQ about Xykon. I chose this hypothetical because it's an apples to apples comparison, unlike other analogous situations (eg Roy/Miko attacks per round, etc). If V would be considered level 17 based on this, shouldn't Xykon be considered 27+?
    It's not apples to apples, though; there is a viable ACF (Metamagic Specialist) which can explain a both good deal of Xykon's metamagic abilities as well as his noted lack of familiar. You're choosing to ignore that and focus only on the invisible metamagic rod, which I will completely agree is unlikely.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    My view would be 27+ is the most straightforward level for Xykon. The most straightforward, balance of probabilities assumption under Occam's razor being that they used higher slots to cast higher spells.
    Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has been assessed in this thread based on probabilities and assumptions. Kurald Galain may correct me on that, but assuming it is true, then you seem to be advocating for Xykon to get treatment that others don't, if you want probability to be a deciding factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Since I answered your question, can you please do the same for mine? If V did this next panel, would you personally advocate him being level 17?
    Probably, since there is no ACF which would explain both that and another notable feature involving V.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 10:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's not apples to apples, though; there is a viable ACF (Metamagic Specialist) which can explain a both good deal of Xykon's metamagic abilities as well as his noted lack of familiar. You're choosing to ignore that and focus only on the invisible metamagic rod, which I will completely agree is unlikely.

    A.) Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has been assessed in this thread based on probabilities and assumptions. Kurald Galain may correct me on that, but assuming it is true, then you seem to be advocating for Xykon to get treatment that others don't, if you want probability to be a deciding factor.

    Probably, since there is no ACF which would explain both that and another notable feature involving V.
    I mentioned the balance of probabilities only because you yourself referred to it earlier.

    It's just as possible for V to have an ACF which would explain him being able to use metamagic that he would otherwise need higher spell slots for. We haven't seen any evidence V has it, but we haven't seen any evidence Xykon has it either. He could be doing all his metamagic with higher slots like V has been assumed to. If we're going to treat them both the same, then Xykon should get considered to be level 27+ due to the extra spell slots by the same logic you'd be using to support V.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 10:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Oh yeah, that. I keep getting the Bigby's Hand line confused.



    I said enough screentime that details his feats. Casting Energy Drain does not say anything about his feats. Casting Maximized Energy Drain does, or at least that he has some way of Maximizing it. Knowing his spell list does not mean knowing his feats.

    Edit: Oh, and I have been mentioning that Xykon, as an epic Sorcerer, would get bonus feats. Even if we assume that Xykon has three Improved Spell Capacities and Epic Spellcasting as epic feats, he only needs to be level 26+.
    I thought it was level 27, but if it's level 26 I stand corrected. I'll let those more versed in this stuff than I determine it.

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