Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Peelee]

I mentioned the balance of probabilities only because you yourself referred to it earlier.

Fair.

It's just as possible for V to have an ACF which would explain him being able to use metamagic that he would otherwise need higher spell slots for.

Which one? Does it only explain that one thing or does it explain another facet if his build as well?

Here's the thing - if you make the most convincing argument you can, and you end up swaying opinion, that's fantastic. I definitely think 21 is too low a floor, I just can't get good enough evidence based on what we've seen to make a convincing argument for that. But if you can't, if the rebuttals are more convincing than your argument, then you fought the good fight. The problem here is that even though I largely agree with you, your argument isn't convincing. To me, at least. You're basically saying, "hey, this should be different because c'mon." If you have a better argument, I'd love to hear it. If you have compelling evidence, I'll even advocate for it. But as is, right now? I'm no more convinced than I was last month that we can definitively put a different number in there.

[TooSoon]

Fair.

Which one? Does it only explain that one thing or does it explain another facet if his build as well?

Here's the thing - if you make the most convincing argument you can, and you end up swaying opinion, that's fantastic. I definitely think 21 is too low a floor, I just can't get good enough evidence based on what we've seen to make a convincing argument for that. But if you can't, if the rebuttals are more convincing than your argument, then you fought the good fight. The problem here is that even though I largely agree with you, your argument isn't convincing. To me, at least. You're basically saying, "hey, this should be different because c'mon." If you have a better argument, I'd love to hear it. If you have compelling evidence, I'll even advocate for it. But as is, right now? I'm no more convinced than I was last month that we can definitively put a different number in there.

I don't agree with the characterization, but let me start by asking the posters on here who know more than I about D&D; does everyone agree there are ACFs V could take to let him use metamagic without having higher spell slots?

If so, it seems pretty apples to apples to me.

You say it "explains another facet of his build as well". I mean, we could use that logic to make all kinds of assumptions about characters builds on here; eg "if such and such was such and such class, that would explain XYZ!" As you know, nobody uses that argument as evidence on here. Xykon doesn't have a familiar we've seen... but maybe it died over his many years of life, or maybe it's still around doing something useful. Who knows. I'm not actually sure you keep a familiar upon becoming a Lich, or what the lifespan of one is. It would be convenient if that your assumption were true, but there's no evidence for it on panel. I just feel like if we're going to use spell slots as the default assumption for other characters like V, they should be used for Xykon. It also nicely fits with all the other evidence I noted (which is much more compelling to me than "well, where is his familiar?")

[Jasdoif]

Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has been assessed in this thread based on probabilities and assumptions.

Oona is currently listed with Beast Heart Adept levels; so yes, assumptions are now in play.

[Peelee]

I don't agree with the characterization, but let me start by asking the posters on here who know more than I about D&D; does everyone agree there are ACFs V could take to let him use metamagic without having higher spell slots?

If anyone does, with the ACF named and a compelling argument made, then I would likely not advocate for V being 17 in your scenario, i feel the need to point out.

[TooSoon]

If anyone does, with the ACF named and a compelling argument made, then I would likely not advocate for V being 17 in your scenario, i feel the need to point out.

Well, bearing that in mind, let me ask a different question. What is the lowest plausible level Xykon could be to cast Superb Dispelling?

[danielxcutter]

Well, bearing that in mind, let me ask a different question. What is the lowest plausible level Xykon could be to cast Superb Dispelling?

Considering that his Spellcraft modifier probably isn't that great(especially compared to a Wizard of similar level), I'd honestly have to say "ridiculous" as it has DC 59. As in, "even if the MitD is on the higher end of what some people think he is, Xykon is even higher by a considerable amount".

If you're asking me for my headcanon instead of concrete evidence for this thread, I'd honestly say that the Giant probably just gave Xykon that epic spell because it fit the narrative without checking(or caring about) the DC. That seems to be how he treats epic spells in general, actually; otherwise Familicide would likely have a DC in the triple digits minimum.

[Peelee]

If you're asking me for my headcanon instead of concrete evidence for this thread, I'd honestly say that the Giant probably just gave Xykon that epic spell because it fit the narrative without checking(or caring about) the DC. That seems to be how he treats epic spells in general, actually; otherwise Familicide would likely have a DC in the triple digits minimum.

Especially given that he's said he actively tries to obfuscate things these days, to the point that we can't even say what class Tarquin is, much less what level. Which, I suspect is why I was wrong here:

Oona is currently listed with Beast Heart Adept levels; so yes, assumptions are now in play.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, I remembered something. Epic Sorcerers learn two new spells per level, I think? Is the list O'Chul gave Roy based on a non-epic Sorcerer, or an epic one? The list does have things like "2x unknown", but I'm pretty sure those are a bit lower-level.

Maybe we could extrapolate his level from that?

[Jasdoif]

Epic Sorcerers learn two new spells per level, I think?

No; you may be thinking of wizards, or of taking Spell Knowledge.

The sorcerer’s number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level. The sorcerer does not learn additional spells unless he or she selects the Spell Knowledge feat.

[danielxcutter]

No; you may be thinking of wizards, or of taking Spell Knowledge.

Well that blows. I suppose I shouldn't expect anything better from Wizards of the Coast.

[TooSoon]

Considering that his Spellcraft modifier probably isn't that great(especially compared to a Wizard of similar level), I'd honestly have to say "ridiculous" as it has DC 59. As in, "even if the MitD is on the higher end of what some people think he is, Xykon is even higher by a considerable amount".

If you're asking me for my headcanon instead of concrete evidence for this thread, I'd honestly say that the Giant probably just gave Xykon that epic spell because it fit the narrative without checking(or caring about) the DC. That seems to be how he treats epic spells in general, actually; otherwise Familicide would likely have a DC in the triple digits minimum.

I think we should give the Giant more credit than that. If he uses a listed spell, especially a core one, we should assume it functions as stated unless reason is given otherwise. The Giant has been quite willing to step in and say so when he's made mistakes like this before after all (eg using a made up spell that he didn't realise had the same name as a real spell). Homebrew spells are different obviously, though I believe some calculations were done for Cloister (and Familicide), but if we can determine a minimum level limit to cast Superb Dispelling then I think we should. It's no different from using a 9th level spell to determine Redcloak's level (it's just more complicated to work out what said level would be).

[danielxcutter]

I think we should give the Giant more credit than that. If he uses a listed spell, especially a core one, we should assume it functions as stated unless reason is given otherwise. The Giant has been quite willing to step in and say so when he's made mistakes like this before after all (eg using a made up spell that he didn't realise had the same name as a real spell). Homebrew spells are different obviously, though I believe some calculations were done for Cloister (and Familicide), but if we can determine a minimum level limit to cast Superb Dispelling then I think we should. It's no different from using a 9th level spell to determine Redcloak's level (it's just more complicated to work out what said level would be).

Well, let's go with that then. Superb Dispelling's DC is 59. You'd need a +39 to be able to succeed at all and with a nat 20.

Since many of the specifics are up in the air, I'll be using gratuitous amounts of estimates. In Start of Darkness, Xykon was mentioned to have failed math in junior high, I think, so let's go with Xykon having 9 Int at "character creation" and not adding any points to it.

As Xykon was in the Venerable age category, this would result him in having 12 Int. Liches get +4 to all mental stats, so that's 16 Int. A +3.

If Xykon is 26th level, the maximum number of ranks he could have in Spellcraft is 29. If he has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge(arcana), he gets a +2 synergy bonus to Spellcraft.

This is still far from enough, as this still only adds up to +34. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) would only increase this to +37.

Epic Skill Focus(Spellcraft) does add another +10 to the check. However, this would mean Xykon is actually least 27th level, since we've established that 26th is the minimum if he uses all his bonus feats and normal feats to take three Improved Spell Capacities and Epic Spellcasting. This does increase his skill rank maximum up higher, at least.

Even after this, Xykon's Spellcraft bonus is still "only" +48. Even taking 10 on the check is insufficient. Assuming he takes 10 and only increases his check with skill ranks, his Intelligence score is currently 16, and Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus for Spellcraft, he would need at least be a 29th-level character. Note that this does not necessarily mean he's a pure Sorcerer, but it's the most likely scenario.

And all this assumes the Giant is going with the base epic spell rules, as there's this variant rule in a sidebar:

VARIANT: SPELLCRAFT KEY ABILITY
Before the Epic Level Handbook introduced epic spells to the D&D game, nonwizard spellcasters had less reason to care
about their Intelligence scores. Because casting epic spells requires a Spellcraft check, you might allow nonwizard spellcasters to substitute their Spellcasting key ability for Intelligence when making a Spellcraft check to use an epic spell. For examples, sorcerers would add their Charisma modifier, not their Intelligence modifier, to their ranks in Spellcraft while clerics and druids would add their Wisdom modifier. The same rule applies for psionic characters and their key ability scores when using epic psionic powers.

I doubt the Giant even knows of this variant, let alone uses it, but it would give a little wiggle room.

Note that Epic Mage Armor's Spellcraft DC is only 46, so if he can cast Superb Dispelling, he can cast Epic Mage Armor. Cloister is homebrewed, so we don't know the DC for it - considering the area it covers and the effects, it's probably quite high indeed.

If I'm perfectly honest, though, I doubt Xykon is that OP. While I admit that aside from Epic Spellcasting, post-Epic play is somewhat bigger numbers than non-Epic and even then not terribly bigger numbers, CR 31 is... a lot higher than I like.

Has anyone actually asked the Giant about this? Familicide and Cloister are "for the pwot" devices, but Superb Dispelling's DC is... high. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Giant's thought process was "Xykon has Epic Spellcasting, he wouldn't take Greater Dispel Magic before getting up to epic levels, Superb Dispelling is an epic spell that would help with that, and he only needs to devote the gold and XP to research it." and no more.

[TooSoon]

Well, let's go with that then. Superb Dispelling's DC is 59. You'd need a +39 to be able to succeed at all and with a nat 20.

Since many of the specifics are up in the air, I'll be using gratuitous amounts of estimates. In Start of Darkness, Xykon was mentioned to have failed math in junior high, I think, so let's go with Xykon having 9 Int at "character creation" and not adding any points to it.

As Xykon was in the Venerable age category, this would result him in having 12 Int. Liches get +4 to all mental stats, so that's 16 Int. A +3.

If Xykon is 26th level, the maximum number of ranks he could have in Spellcraft is 29. If he has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge(arcana), he gets a +2 synergy bonus to Spellcraft.

This is still far from enough, as this still only adds up to +34. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) would only increase this to +37.

Epic Skill Focus(Spellcraft) does add another +10 to the check. However, this would mean Xykon is actually least 27th level, since we've established that 26th is the minimum if he uses all his bonus feats and normal feats to take three Improved Spell Capacities and Epic Spellcasting. This does increase his skill rank maximum up higher, at least.

Even after this, Xykon's Spellcraft bonus is still "only" +48. Even taking 10 on the check is insufficient. Assuming he takes 10 and only increases his check with skill ranks, his Intelligence score is currently 16, and Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus for Spellcraft, he would need at least be a 29th-level character. Note that this does not necessarily mean he's a pure Sorcerer, but it's the most likely scenario.

And all this assumes the Giant is going with the base epic spell rules, as there's this variant rule in a sidebar:



I doubt the Giant even knows of this variant, let alone uses it, but it would give a little wiggle room.

Note that Epic Mage Armor's Spellcraft DC is only 46, so if he can cast Superb Dispelling, he can cast Epic Mage Armor. Cloister is homebrewed, so we don't know the DC for it - considering the area it covers and the effects, it's probably quite high indeed.

If I'm perfectly honest, though, I doubt Xykon is that OP. While I admit that aside from Epic Spellcasting, post-Epic play is somewhat bigger numbers than non-Epic and even then not terribly bigger numbers, CR 31 is... a lot higher than I like.

Has anyone actually asked the Giant about this? Familicide and Cloister are "for the pwot" devices, but Superb Dispelling's DC is... high. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Giant's thought process was "Xykon has Epic Spellcasting, he wouldn't take Greater Dispel Magic before getting up to epic levels, Superb Dispelling is an epic spell that would help with that, and he only needs to devote the gold and XP to research it." and no more.

Looks like a compelling argument to me. Can we put Xykon as 29+ then, since that's the minimum level he'd need to be to cast Superb Dispelling?

[danielxcutter]

Well, if he's actually rolling, instead of taking 10, I think 27+ would work. Risky, yes, but it's not impossible.

Also, we don't know how high his Int actually is. Even considering that turning into a lich boosts his mental stats, he actually fights pretty smart.

[Kurald Galain]

Even after this, Xykon's Spellcraft bonus is still "only" +48.

You haven't mentioned items yet. By RAW, an item of +30 to the skill of your choice is 90000 gold pieces and not even epic.

[danielxcutter]

You haven't mentioned items yet. By RAW, an item of +30 to the skill of your choice is 90000 gold pieces and not even epic.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that those estimates don't include items.

Realistically? He probably doesn't have such an item.

For the purpose of this thread? Yeah, that's fair enough.

Also, personally I really don't like the "custom magic item handwave" solution. I accept that it is a thing for the purpose of this thread, but I don't like it and will take my headcanons to my grave unless the Giant says otherwise. :P

[Shale]

The idea that Xykon, who spends 8 hours a day every day crafting magic items for his personal use, would have an easily crafted (for an epic character with a major city's worth of resources) item that boosts his most important skill strikes me as one of the less out-there hypotheticals this thread has raised.

[danielxcutter]

The idea that Xykon, who spends 8 hours a day every day crafting magic items for his personal use, would have an easily crafted (for an epic character with a major city's worth of resources) item that boosts his most important skill strikes me as one of the less out-there hypotheticals this thread has raised.

...Point. I wonder which item it would be? Wouldn't be surprised if it was the crown, to be honest - he did only cast his epic spells after he took it back from Roy, right? Of course, it could be his robe or another ring - if he does have one.

[Peelee]

Looks like a compelling argument to me. Can we put Xykon as 29+ then, since that's the minimum level he'd need to be to cast Superb Dispelling?

No.

DC is 59. Nat 20 plus 24 ranks in spellcraft gets it down to 15.
Know (Arcana) synergy cuts it to 13.
Epic variant allowing for charisma bonus knocks it down to 4.
And, just for fun, let's say he takes the 10d6 backlash for -10 to the DC. So he no longer even needs the best die roll, he can hit it from as low as a roll of 15, giving him 1 in 4 odds of getting that spell off on any given cast.

So... Level 21, then?

[danielxcutter]

No.

DC is 59. Nat 20 plus 24 ranks in spellcraft gets it down to 15.
Know (Arcana) synergy cuts it to 13.
Epic variant allowing for charisma bonus knocks it down to 4.
And, just for fun, let's say he takes the 10d6 backlash for -10 to the DC. So he no longer even needs the best die roll, he can hit it from as low as a roll of 15, giving him 1 in 4 odds of getting that spell off on any given cast.

So... Level 21, then?

Er... I'm pretty sure the backlash modifier is included by default. And the variant is just that, a variant.

[Peelee]

Er... I'm pretty sure the backlash modifier is included by default. And the variant is just that, a variant.

Whoops! My bad on the backlash. And a variant is indeed a variant, but we're asked "what level is this possible at," so I'm going to answer that specific question.

So we're back up to what, 4 then? Not too bad. He's in command of a high-level Cleric who he likes to demand spells from, so let's pop an Eagles Splendor to get that down to 2.

So 23, by my accounting. And, as noted, my accounting is pretty rough, there could well be something else helping him get that +2 I'm not thinking of.

[danielxcutter]

Whoops! My bad on the backlash. And a variant is indeed a variant, but we're asked "what level is this possible at," so I'm going to answer that specific question.

So we're back up to what, 4 then? Not too bad. He's in command of a high-level Cleric who he likes to demand spells from, so let's pop an Eagles Splendor to get that down to 2.

So 23, by my accounting. And, as noted, my accounting is pretty rough, there could well be something else helping him get that +2 I'm not thinking of.

I'm pretty sure his cloak is of Charisma. 28 is pretty high even with the racial bonus.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure his cloak is of Charisma. 28 is pretty high even with the racial bonus.

Let's assume 18 Cha starting. 21 levels gets him to five star increases, so 23 charisma. Plus 2 for lich is 25.

There are other ways to get that +3 or more. I don't think it's outlandish that he read one of the stat increasing books, for example.

[danielxcutter]

Let's assume 18 Cha starting. 21 levels gets him to five star increases, so 23 charisma. Plus 2 for lich is 25.

There are other ways to get that +3 or more. I don't think it's outlandish that he read one of the stat increasing books, for example.

I hear you, but if a Spellcraft booster isn't that out of the question then a Cloak of Charisma is even less unlikely.

[Peelee]

I hear you, but if a Spellcraft booster isn't that out of the question then a Cloak of Charisma is even less unlikely.

Oh I'm not saying it's unlikely. I'm just saying that we cant type whatever bonus he has, so I'm going with inherent rather than enhancement.

[danielxcutter]

Oh I'm not saying it's unlikely. I'm just saying that we cant type whatever bonus he has, so I'm going with inherent rather than enhancement.

The Cloak is far cheaper and easier to get. I certainly won't be surprised if he has both to an extent, though.

[Peelee]

The Cloak is far cheaper and easier to get. I certainly won't be surprised if he has both to an extent, though.

I agree on both. Just pointing out that I was answering an open-ended question, and going for a minimum of assumptions (and what assumptions I did make I made in my favor, because why not).

[Ephemera]

So, if we're doing this again (and honestly, it's probably healthy for us to revisit this once in a while as we have member turnover), I will again pop in to say the following:

This thread operates by consensus, pretty much. In all such geek debates on the internet, a certain number of people will insist that we have precise rules that determine exactly how we can determine minimums and maximums, and that, say, Oona being a Beast Heart Adept violates our thread rules.

The truth is that have guidelines, but we don't (and shouldn't) have anything like clear rules about how to balance, say, the likelihood of home brew vs. obscure splatbook vs. apparent contradiction vs. core explanation that just doesn't pass the smell test. We could, in theory, have strict rules (although we'd never be able to actually agree on what they should be), but in the end, any system like this is a tradeoff between arbitrariness and confusion, and the degree of arbitrariness we'd need to eliminate all confusion would lead to some pretty wonky explanations.

So Peelee has it right; by all means if you'd like to make a case for 26+, go for it, and if you convince enough people, we can change it. The reason we listed Beast Heart Adept is that it fit sufficiently well that a lot of us decided that it was the simplest explanation for what we see--sure, we could explain Oona through core-only rules, but the reductio-ad-absurdem of this is the "Everyone is an Expert" approach.

In the particular case of Xykon, I think that it's probably true that a majority feels that he's higher than 21, but the easiest explanations for his observed abilities is probably that he's level 32+ altogether, and that feels outlandish enough to enough people that we've collectively gone looking for other ways to explain stuff, and the thread rules don't really give us guidance as to whether an invisible item, non-core feat, off-panel scroll use, or house rule about metamagic use is a better explanation so we've stuck with the lowest level no one wants to context.

It's probably worth someone's time to outline all of the extant theories about how Xykon does what he does and see if the consensus is different than it was. It's probably even fair to say that we've gotten a little bit looser about going with consensus most likely as opposed to lowest possible, but I don't think there's any point in pretending that lowest possible is actually a well-defined thing--it just leads to a different quagmire where we can endlessly debate how non-core or obscure or unlikely various explanations are.

[danielxcutter]

I would just like to say that as Sudden Maximize is 1/day, Xykon must have Maximize Spell or some other Maximizing ability due to blasting O-Chul with a Maximized Lightning Bolt not long after defeating Darth Vaarsuvius. Could have Sudden Maximize and Maximize Spell, though, or some other combination.

[Peelee]

I would just like to say that as Sudden Maximize is 1/day, Xykon must have Maximize Spell or some other Maximizing ability due to blasting O-Chul with a Maximized Lightning Bolt not long after defeating Darth Vaarsuvius. Could have Sudden Maximize and Maximize Spell, though, or some other combination.

Or the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature.