Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 46
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    i recently discovered the spell's ludicrous power, and it just seems wrong. especially in comparison with two similar spells, wall of stone and forcecage.

    wall of stone is a spell of the same level and does something similar. except that if you try to trap a creature with it it gets a saving throw, and anyway any decent fighter at that level can power attack through the wall in one round. wall of thorns is basically wall of stone without its two major limitations that made it manageable. in particular the stuff about requiring 10 minutes to chop down one foot of it seems wrong. everything else has hardness and hit points, and the way power attack works, a high level fighter can smash even adamantium so fast, he may as well have a burrow speed. but no. they could tear down a 5-foot wall of adamantium in one round, but they need 50 minutes for a bunch of vegetables. regardless of anything else.

    forcecage does something similar to wall of thorns, and it is widely regarded as a very useful spell. despite being two full levels higher. the main difference is that you can count on 13th level people to have some way out of a forcecage. at 9th level, much less so. wall of thorns allows some more escape routes than forcecage, but it has a higher area, allowing to trap many creatures, or even colossal creatures.
    speaking of escape routes, the only one given is a STR check where you need at least 25 to be able to move at all. even a high level barbarian won't make it more than 50% of times. it's also much easier to attack something stuck into a wall of thorns than inside a forcecage.

    so, basically wall of thorns is a 5th level spell that takes people out of a fight without any kind of saving throw or resistance allowed, and the various counterplays that work against it are not so easy to get at level 9.

    is it really so strong, or is there something i miss? would it be unreasonable to houserule it to have a hardness and hit points instead?
    Last edited by King of Nowhere; 2020-02-25 at 06:26 AM.
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    I don't disagree that it is very strong, but one thing you shouldn't overlook is that you can pass through the wall without having to chop it down if you can make a pretty high strength check, so it's less of an absolute barrier than a wall of stone would be.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Another detail you missed, it's an active spell effect. That means that; unlike wall of stone, because of its instantaneous nature, and wall of force, because of an explicit clause in the spell; wall of thorns can be dispelled.

    Teleportation and flight aren't so common at level 9, though they are become more so, but dispelling was four levels back. You should be coming into the region where even warriors have access to a modicum of dispelling options and should be seeking them if they have any reason to expect caster enemies.

    DeTess is right about the ability of particularly strong characters to simply push through in a couple rounds too. Most fighters and barbarians should be sporting a str of 20 or more by level 8 and picking up options to boost strength checks isn't at all uncommon either. It's not explictly stated in the spell description but I'd have to imagine the climb DC for the wall of vines is much lower than for wall of stone too.

    It's definitely a solid effect. Right up there with any of the physical wall spells (as opposed to the ephemeral ones like wall of gloom) but it's not far off of wall of stone and definitely a lot less powerful than forcecage or wall of force.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hiro Quester's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    I used it when playing a Druid. Not often, though. Most enemies it just slows down.

    You make a strength check, and as a full round action can move through 5 feet for every 5points you beat a DC 20 check. And you take 25-your AC damage when passing through. A strong well armored fighter with a lucky roll can get through in a round or two, with minor scrapes.

    So itís decent BFC, for isolating some creatures that are neither strong nor well-armored and who canít fly or teleport. But more comparable to a wall of stone than a forcecage.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Quester View Post
    Hello Gishes! Look at your sword. Now look at Thunderlance. Now back at your sword. Now back to Thunderlance. Sadly, your sword isn't a Thunderlance.
    Forest Gnome Druid avatar by Linklele. A detailed version is here.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    DeTess is right about the ability of particularly strong characters to simply push through in a couple rounds too. Most fighters and barbarians should be sporting a str of 20 or more by level 8
    Sure, but that's not great. A raging barbarian would have about 26 strength, but that's still +8 against a DC 25, or an 80% chance of doing nothing.

    Going by the Climb skill description, a wall of thorns is DC 15 to climb, a wall of stone is DC 20 to 25, and a wall of force is DC 70 (ELH). So that's the easiest counter, although it would cause a bit of damage to most climbers.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    trying the STR check is not really on the table unless you are the tarrasque, an old dragon, or are feeling lucky. even with a decent optimization to get to STR 30, you are still looking at 75% chance of just losing your round.

    climb and fly are two things i didn't consider doing, because i assumed that the wall also covered above me. can't you use the wall to make a sort of overhang and stop one from moving upwards (wall of stone explicitly can, no mention is made for wall of thorns)? if you cannot, then this strongly reduces the effectiveness of the spell.
    Also, i assumed the wall was cast on my same square, so that i was encased within thorns in my own 5-ft squares (with perhaps 1 ft on each side of unbroken wall, and a solid 5 ft upwards). but now that i read it again, i am not sure if that is what the spell meant as "trapping someone with it" or if it just means boxing someone into a square. (also, i didn't consider it much because i had a shadow jump available. still, if i had a hole over me, i could have jumped through it and would have liked it better)
    can you clarify that point for me? can you make a wall of thorns appear on a square occupied by another creature to trap the creature inside?

    the fact that it's an active spell effect also helps me wrap my head around the fact that it has no hardness. i can accept it better by thinking of the spell regenerating the wall as you chop it, and cutting it requiring putting something to physically prevent the brambles from regrowing. I can also imagine someone moving through it with the STR check as ripping the brambles apart, with new ones reforming immediately afterwards.
    by the way, by this description, shouldn't it also be possible to pass through it with escape artist? is there something like it mentioned somewhere?
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hiro Quester's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    Also, i assumed the wall was cast on my same square, so that i was encased within thorns in my own 5-ft squares (with perhaps 1 ft on each side of unbroken wall, and a solid 5 ft upwards). but now that i read it again, i am not sure if that is what the spell meant as "trapping someone with it" or if it just means boxing someone into a square.
    It does seem you can cast it on an area and encase creatures within it, so their square is also filled with thorns:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wall of Thorns
    Any creature within the area of the spell when it is cast takes damage as if it had moved into the wall and is caught inside
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Quester View Post
    Hello Gishes! Look at your sword. Now look at Thunderlance. Now back at your sword. Now back to Thunderlance. Sadly, your sword isn't a Thunderlance.
    Forest Gnome Druid avatar by Linklele. A detailed version is here.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2017

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Yeah, that spell is pretty good. One of those encounter-ending, saveless spells for a good chunk of combats.

    When it was used in my last campaign, the ruling was that it could be cast on a space occupied by a creature. So it was pretty potent.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Troacctid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Don't forget that you can buy a thorn pouch for only 4,400 gp to get wall of thorns 1/day...as a swift action! Because that's fair. Or worse, Greenbound Summoning, get it as a 1st level spell, because why not? 😝

    Unlike other walls, wall of thorns is also negated by freedom of movement and similar effects. In general, though, I agree that it is really good.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2016

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    The one 10 ft cube per level option makes it shapeable also, which is quite nice.

    Some house rule suggestions...
    1) Add size modifiers to the strength check (like grapple)

    2) Allow for escape artist check with size modifiers

    3) Allow 'formless' creatures to pass through it unhindered (e.g. water elemental, air elemental, fire elemental)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2011

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Yes, it's really good. It can generally and reliably used to disable/remove one foe of Large size or less on the battlefield. As DM, make sure you have more than one such foe. Note that there are many such examples of "really good battlefield control spells" throughout the PHB. Glitterdust and Web are both generally better spells in that they can disable more foes and are a lower level. Yes, these spells get a save, but any DM that has played with a good "God Wizard" in their game knows their incredible power. Wall of Thorns is pretty average when compared to similar battlefield control spells.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    so, basically wall of thorns is a 5th level spell that takes people out of a fight without any kind of saving throw or resistance allowed, and the various counterplays that work against it are not so easy to get at level 9.
    Uhm, freedom of movement?

    the "amount of movement determined by a str check result" wording is samey to the web spell, except for the higher DC

    my reading on it is "like web but better" rather than something to be compared to wall of stone
    Last edited by ciopo; 2020-02-26 at 07:30 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by ciopo View Post
    Uhm, freedom of movement?
    And ethereality, incorporeality, teleportation, Escape Artist, flight, burrowing, and various transmutation effects that make one formless. There are probably others, too.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-02-26 at 08:30 AM.
    Tanuki in the Playground.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand99 View Post
    Yes, it's really good. It can generally and reliably used to disable/remove one foe of Large size or less on the battlefield. As DM, make sure you have more than one such foe. Note that there are many such examples of "really good battlefield control spells" throughout the PHB. Glitterdust and Web are both generally better spells in that they can disable more foes and are a lower level. Yes, these spells get a save, but any DM that has played with a good "God Wizard" in their game knows their incredible power. Wall of Thorns is pretty average when compared to similar battlefield control spells.
    it's more of a general principle thing; i am of the opinion that nothing should be allowed to screw you up too badly without a saving throw or some other kind of reasonable counterplay. if we are doing just that, we are at an optimization higher than i like to play with.

    also, i am seeing this from a player perspective.
    my character had some bad experiences with magic in the past and is trying hard to resist magic. i picked a monk for high saving throws, touch ac and spell resistance. i sunk a lot of money into further increasing my already-good saving throws, i took some prestige classes mostly for the +2 at first level, and i agreed with my dm to swap scaling damage with scaling SR on those prestige classes too. i spent lots of skill points in spot and listen to stand a better chance at defeating illusions (though they are also very useful on their own), and in escape artist specifically to get out of web spells. i've also invested in a few backup against no-save spells.
    we're not playing at high optimization (i'd never try such a build if that was the case, i know that a highly optimized wizard would be able to go around all my defences easily), so i'm able to tank pretty much any magical assault available in the campaign world with impunity.
    except when a mid-level druid cast thorn wall at me, and then i had to burn one of my limited used of dimension door and hope the druid wouldn't have two more prepared. i can accept it from forcecage, 13th level casters are much more rare, but i'm not comfortable knowing that any 9th level druid can keep me pinned.

    if i was looking at this from a DM perspective, i'd just start using wall of thorn against the players
    Last edited by King of Nowhere; 2020-02-26 at 12:04 PM.
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    it's more of a general principle thing; i am of the opinion that nothing should be allowed to screw you up too badly without a saving throw or some other kind of reasonable counterplay. if we are doing just that, we are at an optimization higher than i like to play with.

    also, i am seeing this from a player perspective.
    Freedom of movement!

    I was happily traipsing around with a str-focused shapeshift variant half-orc

    at around level 6 we almost tpk'd from one level 8ish wizard "medium bad" encounter, , he nicely webbed us and then dropped ice storms on us, he went down like wet paper once one good melee hit splitted him in half, but not before 3 rounds of him dropping aoe's on us because despite passing the saving throw that str check for determining movement had us locked down all the same.

    No different form me using entangle really :D

    from that day onward that druid of mine has heart of water prepared, since we're not high enough for 4th circle slots yet.

    but just the same, wall of thorns has a bunch of counters that are less than 5th circle spell and Freedom of movement is a very reasonable thing to have prepared.

    if you don't well, one web was enough for me to learn the lesson

    any level 1 druid/wizard can keep you pinned if you don't have some freedom of movement or freedom of movement adjacent effect

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    The 3.pf (unlike the 5e) versions donít specifically block line of sight. There could be gaps you could see through. DM call. Doesnít say it gives complete cover or regular cover or concealment or what.

    If it doesnít block los/loe, anklet of translocation is 1400 GP and every melee character already spent 2100 adding that effect to whatever shoes they were wearing.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    it's more of a general principle thing; i am of the opinion that nothing should be allowed to screw you up too badly without a saving throw or some other kind of reasonable counterplay. if we are doing just that, we are at an optimization higher than i like to play with.
    Almost nothing in the system doesn't have a counter at or near the same level it becomes available. A lot of it doesn't even necessearily have to be a direct counter with another spell, though some of it does.

    also, i am seeing this from a player perspective.
    I look at most things from a strategic perspective. Here's the thing, how do I get past it with the resources I have available.

    my character had some bad experiences with magic in the past and is trying hard to resist magic. i picked a monk for high saving throws, touch ac and spell resistance. i sunk a lot of money into further increasing my already-good saving throws, i took some prestige classes mostly for the +2 at first level, and i agreed with my dm to swap scaling damage with scaling SR on those prestige classes too. i spent lots of skill points in spot and listen to stand a better chance at defeating illusions (though they are also very useful on their own), and in escape artist specifically to get out of web spells. i've also invested in a few backup against no-save spells.
    It's a high magic world. You're not gonna get far into mid-level without giving at least some consideration to how to deal with magical onslaughts.

    we're not playing at high optimization (i'd never try such a build if that was the case, i know that a highly optimized wizard would be able to go around all my defences easily), so i'm able to tank pretty much any magical assault available in the campaign world with impunity.
    The power of such casters tends to be overstated. Just make sure your defenses are solid and you should do well enough. If you're a monk, you've already got evasion so you'll also want to pick up mettle somewhere, like a tabard of valor from complete champion (only for <50% hp).

    except when a mid-level druid cast thorn wall at me, and then i had to burn one of my limited used of dimension door and hope the druid wouldn't have two more prepared. i can accept it from forcecage, 13th level casters are much more rare, but i'm not comfortable knowing that any 9th level druid can keep me pinned.
    ... but he can't? A ninth level druid only gets -one- 5th level slot per day from the class and only one more if he's got wis 20+ or a 25k gp pearl of power. You countered it. I don't see the problem. There's a -lot- that can be done to counter it, as has been shown in this thread, and you generally only have to do it once since even higher level druids aren't likely to prepare more than one or two instances anyway.

    if i was looking at this from a DM perspective, i'd just start using wall of thorn against the players
    I wouldn't go out of my way to do it but I wouldn't see any particular reason not to either.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    ... but he can't? A ninth level druid only gets -one- 5th level slot per day from the class and only one more if he's got wis 20+
    I've never seen any 9th-level caster without a 20+ in their casting stat, and usually it's higher than that... plus a druid could conceivably have the plant domain.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I've never seen any 9th-level caster without a 20+ in their casting stat, and usually it's higher than that... plus a druid could conceivably have the plant domain.
    For the wis, sometimes the dice are a pain and standard array isn't likely to get you to 20 by level 9 for NPCs.

    Druids don't get domains unless you go out of your way to get them.

    Even if you do have the requisite abiliity for a bonus spell of 5th level, that's still just 2 slots and preparing wall of thorns in both seems like a poor decision.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    For the wis, sometimes the dice are a pain and standard array isn't likely to get you to 20 by level 9 for NPCs.
    For reference, the WBL of a 9th level NPC easily covers a +2 item, and you get another +2 from level ups, so 19 in casting stat is pretty easy, with the last point needing a bonus from race, spells, age, or something similar.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    You countered it. I don't see the problem. There's a -lot- that can be done to counter it, as has been shown in this thread, and you generally only have to do it once since even higher level druids aren't likely to prepare more than one or two instances anyway.
    i'm level 16, and it took me a full round action (ok, technically a standard action, but i had nothing to do with my move action anyway) to get out of the wall that this level 9 can summon. i worry that if a group of lower leveled foes attacks us, one can cast wall of thorns every round to keep me and other martials from acting while the rest can act freely. if they can add in some way to neutralize our casters, they can keep the party pinned while picking us at leisure.
    probably i worry too much; it's a very specific set-up and it would require getting past all of our detections first.
    by the way, the dm said no to anklet of translation because he didn't want it to become too cheap (he's never played at high level before and he's not the best expert on game mechanics; he's taken some questionable decisions on what to allow and what not, but what the hell, he's a good dm and no one is perfect). i'm still waiting for approval on panic buttons, because i'd like to have some backup.
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Wait. You are 16th level? As a monk? Without a ring of freedom of movement or a item of polymorph or any of the other hard counters? Thatís on you. You donít need decent optimization to get strength 30 at level 16. You need to slap your arcane caster and tell him to Polymorph you into a giant with the pearl of power you bought him, then put on your strength belt.

    In case this is the first time you have heard it, monks are actively bad. They are bad as defensive characters, their supposed strength. There are high op ways to make them better, like wildshape, but it doesnít sound like you are doing those. There are standard things that every high level muggle should have, but it doesnít sound like you have invested in those either.

    The moral of this story isnít ďdonít use wall of thornsĒ. Itís ďdonít play tier 5 muggles at low op without making plans to deal with effects that have been around half your adventuring career, and if you do donít blame the Druid 9Ē.

    You didnít build a character that should be able to resist magical attacks with impunity unless high op wizard. You took one of the games worst characters at dealing with spellcasters and dipped some junk to boost saves. There is literally no tier 3 character at 16 who canít RotFL a wall of thorns, and most of the tier 4s if built moderately decently. Heck, even monks have a counter. The D Door you used. And when you point out that it is a weak effect that you donít get nearly enough uses of, yes. Because monk.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2020-02-27 at 10:15 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    I'm going to disagree with Freedom of Movement overriding it, but I tend to take a less liberal reading of that spell. FoM allows you to act normally despite spells and effects on your character, and overcome the impeding environmental effects of being underwater, but no other environmental effects. Spells like Web inflict conditions on the creatures trapped within such as entangled, and FoM is able to overcome those conditions.

    However, FoM doesn't allow you to pass through a Wall of Force or a Wall of Stone, it doesn't allow you to pass through mundane brambles, or squeeze through a 4-inch square opening in a wall or similar. It doesn't allow you to escape being buried in snow from a Call Avalanche as that's an instantaneous effect that creates mundane snow. It doesn't allow you to overcome any environmental effects except being underwater. It doesn't even allow you to escape mundane bindings or manacles, because that's not included in what the spell says it allows you to overcome.

    Wall of Thorns creates an environmental effect, it doesn't impose any conditions on your character, it's just in the way like a Wall of Stone or a Wall of Force. It does have an added set of rules on how to push through it, but FoM doesn't say it allows you to overcome that type of check or obstacle (it only says grapple and escape artist checks for a grapple or pin for checks you automatically make).

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    my character had some bad experiences with magic in the past and is trying hard to resist magic. i picked a monk for high saving throws, touch ac and spell resistance.
    You should ask to use this monk. Among other things, it gets to dimdoor at least five times per day, and has pounce...

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I'm going to disagree with Freedom of Movement overriding it,
    FoM explicitly lets you walk through spells such as Solid Fog and Web; so it's not much of a stretch to allow WoT as well. Wall of Force is another matter.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2020-02-27 at 11:22 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I'm going to disagree with Freedom of Movement overriding it, but I tend to take a less liberal reading of that spell. FoM allows you to act normally despite spells and effects on your character, and overcome the impeding environmental effects of being underwater, but no other environmental effects. Spells like Web inflict conditions on the creatures trapped within such as entangled, and FoM is able to overcome those conditions.
    I have to disagree. On actual environmental conditions I actually agree with a stricter reading. But FoM appears pretty clear as to how it helps characters trapped within a spell effect. Notice that FoM also overcomes Solid Fog, which imposes no condition. Similar to Solid Fog, Wall of Thorns decidedly does not just create an environmental effect. It has a listed duration, it's specifically not a bunch of plants, it's immune to regular fire, it's ridiculously durable, and its effects are generally far stronger than just putting plants in someone's way. It's most definitely a spell effect that directly impedes movement.

    I also agree that true physical barriers such as Wall of Stone are different and it would be a stretch to say me bumping into a wall is "impeding" my motion. But being physically restrained by a bunch of magical thorny bushes is so very similar to Web and Solid Fog, which are just examples, that it beggars belief to exclude Wall of Thorns from that list.

    Ultimately Gnaeus is right though, that the easiest counter is cheap teleportation and not a ring that costs 40k. In my experience, WoT and other impeders are better used on things that don't wear magic items for that very reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Yeah, wall of stone is just a mundane wall that happens to be created by a spell. Wall of thorns is a dispellable magical spell effect that is pretty much indistinguishable from web. Both are conjuration: creation creating magical barriers impeding your movement. It isnít even a real plant. If FOM letís you walk through web fibers it should let you walk through thorns. Iíd also allow IHS to affect it, under either the raw or the ďcan you imagine Conan breaking through it with a flex of mighty thewsĒ interpretation. (Ninjas (are also a class that can ignore WoT))

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Ultimately Gnaeus is right though, that the easiest counter is cheap teleportation and not a ring that costs 40k. In my experience, WoT and other impeders are better used on things that don't wear magic items for that very reason.
    Yeah I didnít feel so confident about the ring until I realized level 16. Or a pearl of power or some other similar way to get it.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2020-02-27 at 11:50 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    PRAK

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    I feel that unless you're stuck in a core only game most characters should have a form of alternate movement (incorporeal, shadow, tp, earth gide, etc.) by around 9th to 12th level. Just to deal with stuff like hard grapples, nasty environment, and quickened wall of sand + wall of force against the cave wall.
    Niven's Laws, #5
    If you've nothing to say, say it any way you like. Stylistic innovations, contorted story lines or none, exotic or genderless pronouns, internal inconsistencies, the recipe for preparing your lover as a cannibal banquet: feel free. If what you have to say is important and/or difficult to follow, use the simplest language possible. If the reader doesn't get it then, let it not be your fault.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hiro Quester's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Of course Freedom of Movement counters Wall of Thorns. It's right there in the spell description:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wall of Thorns
    Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage
    Edit:
    What is debatable is whether a druid's Woodland Stride enables you to pass through your Wall of Thorns spell, based on this criterion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodland Stride
    Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her
    This clause and the clause on WoT seem to contradict one another.

    If you read Woodland stride as "like natural thorns" and not "thorns that have been magically manipulated", then Wall of Thorns becomes an awesome BFC for a druid; one that hampers everyone else, but you can ignore.

    And a druid with Heart of Water active can get FoM cheaply anyway.
    Last edited by Hiro Quester; 2020-02-27 at 02:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Quester View Post
    Hello Gishes! Look at your sword. Now look at Thunderlance. Now back at your sword. Now back to Thunderlance. Sadly, your sword isn't a Thunderlance.
    Forest Gnome Druid avatar by Linklele. A detailed version is here.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Wait. You are 16th level? As a monk? Without a ring of freedom of movement or a item of polymorph or any of the other hard counters? Thatís on you. You donít need decent optimization to get strength 30 at level 16. You need to slap your arcane caster and tell him to Polymorph you into a giant with the pearl of power you bought him, then put on your strength belt.
    freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
    as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

    and your concept of what is "decent" optimization clearly differs from mine. consider that after years on this forum i could definitely optimize higher than that, but
    1) i don't like that power level. I don't want to play a boring invincible hero. I want to have weaknesses and limitations, and having to struggle (or to rely on other party members) to overcome them.
    2) most other people in my gaming group don't have much mechanical skill. especially the DM. I intentionally picked a weak build to not risk breaking the table.

    that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.
    Why would it be? There are lower-level spells that will effectively lock half the enemies out of combat, such as Stinking Cloud. I don't see any problem with 5th-level spells being good at that.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •