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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
    as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

    and your concept of what is "decent" optimization clearly differs from mine. consider that after years on this forum i could definitely optimize higher than that, but
    1) i don't like that power level. I don't want to play a boring invincible hero. I want to have weaknesses and limitations, and having to struggle (or to rely on other party members) to overcome them.
    2) most other people in my gaming group don't have much mechanical skill. especially the DM. I intentionally picked a weak build to not risk breaking the table.

    that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.
    So you picked a weak build, specifically to struggle. You didnít take competent gear that every competent high level character takes, presumably same. You wanted to rely on party assistance, which either they didnít or couldnít. And then you came here to complain.

    That spell is doing exactly what a 5th level spell should do. It barely slowed you down and wouldnít have slowed down any P.C. with a decent class, or any P.C. with moderate optimization. If you want to rely on party members, whereís the dispel magic. Heck, level 16, whereís the quickened dispel magic. Itís not even a speed bump.

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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
    as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.

    and your concept of what is "decent" optimization clearly differs from mine. consider that after years on this forum i could definitely optimize higher than that, but
    1) i don't like that power level. I don't want to play a boring invincible hero. I want to have weaknesses and limitations, and having to struggle (or to rely on other party members) to overcome them.
    2) most other people in my gaming group don't have much mechanical skill. especially the DM. I intentionally picked a weak build to not risk breaking the table.

    that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.
    With all due respect to your concept, how is a character "wary of magic" NOT have a "need" for freedom of movement? in it's long career, he hasn't have been webbed once? Wall of thorns is stronger than web, but not outlandishly so for being a 5th circle spell.
    web/entangle and other of their ilks are battlefield controls wizarding 101, precisely because even if you pass the save, they are quite crippling to martials/smashies.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    If you don't want to eliminate all your weaknesses or whatever, you should consider an item with limited daily uses, like a third eye freedom. That way, you have it for emergencies, but you're not completely immuneóand instead of setting you back 40k gold, it's less than a tenth as much.

    That said, if you're a single-class monk, you should already have abundant step for this situation.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2020-02-27 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Why would it be? There are lower-level spells that will effectively lock half the enemies out of combat, such as Stinking Cloud. I don't see any problem with 5th-level spells being good at that.
    those spells have a saving throw. it's just so difficult to resist a wall of thorns with the resources most people have at level 9.
    freedom of movement works, but you can't afford the ring yet, and it's single target. i doubt the cleric is preparing it more than once. dispel magic works, if you pass the dispel check. single use teleportation works, but it's not so common to have it at level 9, and you lose the round for it. the STR check is too high to be done reliably even by optimized melee specialists.
    basically, worst case scenario: druid casts wall of thorns, wizard casts dispel magic and dissolves it, it's an action for an action. anything else., and it's a net gain.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    So you picked a weak build, specifically to struggle. You didnít take competent gear that every competent high level character takes, presumably same. You wanted to rely on party assistance, which either they didnít or couldnít. And then you came here to complain.
    my gaming situation was irrelevant. i just brought it up because others were making assumptions about it. I'm not complaining about my gaming situation.1
    I'm just thinking that a spell that locks down an entire party selectively and the only realistic way out of it is a d-door seemed way too strong for 5th level. so, my first question was "does this spell have some hidden weakness that makes it easier to escape?" and i was answered that dispelling also works (there's an argument to be made about freedom of movement). so i see why it's inferior to forcecage, but still seems stronger than a 5th level spell should be. especially since it does not require any combo or optimization or smart use to be effective.
    Yes, at high optimization it's not a big deal because you have plenty of even more powerful effects, but those more powerful effects generally require some combo or can be resisted by some opposed roll; basically, they require optimization to work. i can accept that an heavily metamagicked force orb can instagib characters with lots of resistances, because it's a splatbook spell that requires the aforementioned metamagic to work effectively. i can accept that true strike + dimensional anchor + forcecage would be effective on most targets, because it's a multispell combo.
    wall of thorns require absolutely nothing. it's a core spell that does not require any strategy or smart use.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciopo View Post
    With all due respect to your concept, how is a character "wary of magic" NOT have a "need" for freedom of movement? in it's long career, he hasn't have been webbed once? Wall of thorns is stronger than web, but not outlandishly so for being a 5th circle spell.
    web/entangle and other of their ilks are battlefield controls wizarding 101, precisely because even if you pass the save, they are quite crippling to martials/smashies.
    being entangled is not a big deal; some mild penalty and halved movement won't stop me from reaching my enemies. they can stop you entirely only if you fail the saving throw, which for me is not a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    If you don't want to eliminate all your weaknesses or whatever, you should consider an item with limited daily uses, like a third eye freedom. That way, you have it for emergencies, but you're not completely immuneóand instead of setting you back 40k gold, it's less than a tenth as much.
    will probably look into it the next time i have a big pile of money to spend.
    but, as i said, i didn't mean to discuss my character or campaign, merely the specific spell wall of thorns and whether its limitations were enough to justify it being 5th level

    1 now, if we want to delve even deeper into this tangent of why i couldn't have it dispelled (putting aside that we didn't realize it could be dispelled at the table), i was actually alone there. i had decided to use my downtime to walk around with a big glowing sign saying "to [big bad's name] lackeys: [charname] is here, alone. come & get me"
    hey, the casters always have plenty to do in their downtime, gathering intelligence or getting new spells. i could do nothing of the sort and i lack intelligence-gathering skills, but i am really good at surviving an ambush, so i decided that was the best way to gather intelligence on our enemies it's the same result of scry-and-die: you start away from your enemies not knowing where they are, and you end up knowing exactly where they are, and close enough to engage
    I got ambushed by a group of 6 level 11 foes, which is decent odds against a level 16 alone. but my defensive build works better against multiple weaker foes; i didn't lose a single hp. the wall of thorns was the only thing that actully inconvenienced me.
    Last edited by King of Nowhere; 2020-02-27 at 07:03 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    those spells have a saving throw.
    Yes. That's why they're two or three spell levels lower.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    it's just so difficult to resist a wall of thorns with the resources most people have at level 9
    That seems fairly appropriate, yes? At level 9, wall of thorns is a big gun, something you only use against powerful opponents. It would be fairly poor design for there to be some easy way for 9th level characters to avoid it.

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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Wall of Thorns isn't especially powerful compared to the other BFC spells that 3.5 offers.
    As an example, solid fog is only 4th level and it reduces movement to 5 feet per round with no save and also blocks line of sight, penalizes attack rolls and negates mundane ranged attacks.

    Wall of Thorns is an example of the overpowered nature of spellcasting when compared to mundane power in 3.x but modifying it in isolation doesn't change anything because a hypothetical caster can just pick another equally powerful option in response.

    Modifying ALL powerful options is a solution for reigning in spellcasting, but it's a lot of work, it's difficult to determine a good place to draw the line and it's very easy to run into other problems while trying to solve the first one.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowhere View Post
    freedom of movement i didn't get because i don't need it. besides the wall of thorns, i never faced anything else that would impair my movement that i couldn't either resist or evade or outgrapple. i just have other priorities for 40k gp.
    If the solutions are available, and you choose not to avail yourself of them, that's on you not the spell. Outside of a core only game there are -myriad- solutions to this problem, most of them available by the time WoT becomes a thing and more than a few well before. As a high level monk, you can like as not simply jump over the bloody thing unless the caster chooses to sacrifice width or breadth for height. That you don't have flight at level 16 strikes me as odd too. I have a lot more conservative idea of "decent" optimization than a lot of folks around here and that's something I expect on nearly every character by 10, at least X/day if not always.

    Anyway, having FoM available as a panic button for extremely limited duration and limited times per day is too cheap to really complain about. I agree that the full-on ring of freedom is a bit much if you're otherwise difficult to impede, though.

    as for polimorphing, it would certainly help my build - especially for reach, since i use tripping - but i decided that's higher op than i wanted. i am already effective enough at my roles.
    While it's good in general, I'm not sure how polymorph actually helps in this situation other than by boosting your strength. As was pointed out upthread, even a prodigous strength doesn't give great odds for penetrating the wall on its own. You really want something that boosts strength checks directly as well, if you're gonna go that way. Given you're a tripper, I'd think you'd be on the lookout for those anyway. Torc of the titans is +5 a couple times per day for fairly cheap.

    that said, if you can cast wall of thorns on someone's square to effectively immobilize him, it still seems a fair bit stronger than what a 5th level spell alone should do.
    But it's really not though. Solid fog is a 4th level spell that's worse. No save, no resistance, your speed and strength don't matter, you're moving 5 feet a round until you reach the edge and you don't even know which way it is because you can't see beyond the adjacent squares. At least with wall of thorns you know which direction to struggle and can be free and around the wall in relatively short order, dice allowing. SF is just a straight "you're wasting the next few rounds if you don't have a counter effect."


    @Hiro Quester WRT WoT vs Woodland Stride, woodland stride wins because of the clause in WoT. It explicitly does not impede characters that have the ability to move through difficult woodland terrain unimpeded, which woodland stride gives you. If it didn't have that clause, woodland stride wouldn't let you through because of its own clause that says it doesn't work against magic undergrowth.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Huh.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you donít have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, itís not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You canít take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
    Since wall of thorns isn't "impassible", I think you're entitled to at least 5 ft of movement for your full round action. OTOH, there are arguments to be made that this is a separate full round action that can't be taken if you try the Str check, or that failing the Str check means "all movement is prohibited to you". On the third hand, you might be able to take that 5 ft full round action instead of trying to force your way through the wall, making it a risk/reward choice. Still, it seems like a fair, reasonable, and arguably even RAW nerf for preventing humanoids from being trapped for eternity (which in combat, multiple turns might as well be).
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-02-28 at 02:07 AM.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    While it's good in general, I'm not sure how polymorph actually helps in this situation other than by boosting your strength. As was pointed out upthread, even a prodigous strength doesn't give great odds for penetrating the wall on its own. You really want something that boosts strength checks directly as well, if you're gonna go that way. Given you're a tripper, I'd think you'd be on the lookout for those anyway. Torc of the titans is +5 a couple times per day for fairly cheap..
    Well you could get a burrow speed.

    You might get a bonus of some kind for being fine. Or an ooze. Not RAW but worth asking a DM.

    And Str really depends on how high we get it. A sun giant (str 37) on a muggle with a str+ item is already in the 40s. That might be all we can hope for on a monk, but other low tier characters could use rage or UMD or other to kick that higher.

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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Well you could get a burrow speed.
    Don't see how that's any more or less helpful than a fly speed. Either you're not caught in the thorns, and should already have a way around it, or you are and the burrow speed is just as impeded as any other movement mode.

    You might get a bonus of some kind for being fine. Or an ooze. Not RAW but worth asking a DM.
    Given all the workarounds that already exist, I wouldn't be inclined to give any such bonus. Don't mess with casters if you're not prepared to deal with caster crap.

    And Str really depends on how high we get it. A sun giant (str 37) on a muggle with a str+ item is already in the 40s. That might be all we can hope for on a monk, but other low tier characters could use rage or UMD or other to kick that higher.
    with a +6 belt that comes to 43; a +16. Hits on a 9 for 5ft of movement. +6 is a longshot at 9. Even a +4 isn't guaranteed. It's par-for-the-course at 16 though.

    In any case, the HD cap on polymorph matters too. Sun Giant, for example, isn't even an option until both the caster's CL and the target's HD are both 13.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Don't see how that's any more or less helpful than a fly speed. Either you're not caught in the thorns, and should already have a way around it, or you are and the burrow speed is just as impeded as any other movement mode.
    See I see that as a sure thing. There is no way a wall of thorns prevents you from burrowing under it. (Assuming that it is on something you can normally burrow through)You could sculpt it to be in the air but not into solid matter. I wouldnít blink at it, and would in fact be pretty upset with a negative ruling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Given all the workarounds that already exist, I wouldn't be inclined to give any such bonus. Don't mess with casters if you're not prepared to deal with caster crap.
    Some tables are more RAW. Some tables like workarounds. I would at least entertain the idea that a mass of finger length thorns isnít a barrier to something the size of a beetle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    with a +6 belt that comes to 43; a +16. Hits on a 9 for 5ft of movement. +6 is a longshot at 9. Even a +4 isn't guaranteed. It's par-for-the-course at 16 though.

    In any case, the HD cap on polymorph matters too. Sun Giant, for example, isn't even an option until both the caster's CL and the target's HD are both 13.
    Well you would expect a 5th level spell to be more debilitating at 9 than 13 than 16. Especially when using a 4th level spell to counter that already has at least one better way to operate (burrow)

    But that 43 is hardly our upper bound at even decent op at 9-16. Heroism, luckstone, UMD on scroll like bite of the WereX, rerolls, rage. There are a whole bunch of common buffs/feats/abilities that should be cranking physical rolls for the 1/4ish of classes that canít just Nope the barrier.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2020-02-28 at 09:06 AM.

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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Don't see how that's any more or less helpful than a fly speed. Either you're not caught in the thorns, and should already have a way around it, or you are and the burrow speed is just as impeded as any other movement mode.
    Thing is, unless a spell effect says otherwise, blocking line of effect (which the ground does) blocks the effect, so there are no thorns underground. Moving 5' down (for a Medium or smaller creature) means you're out of the effect and can then move normally (for a given value of 'normal' while burrowing). Much better than moving 10'+ if the caster has littered the battlefield around you with thorns.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-02-28 at 12:00 PM.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Thing is, unless a spell effect says otherwise, blocking line of effect (which the ground does) blocks the effect, so there are no thorns underground. Moving 5' down (for a Medium or smaller creature) means you're out of the effect and can then move normally (for a given value of 'normal' while burrowing). Much better than moving 10'+ if the caster has littered the battlefield around you with thorns.
    And? If you're already caught up in the thorns, you can't move 5ft down out of it anymore than you can move 5ft back into the open air on one side without making the str check. Going around is going around. A burrow speed might save you a little distance going under if you're not stuck already but that's as much a function of the battlefield its cast in as it is one of the spell itself.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    And? If you're already caught up in the thorns, you can't move 5ft down out of it anymore than you can move 5ft back into the open air on one side without making the str check. Going around is going around. A burrow speed might save you a little distance going under if you're not stuck already but that's as much a function of the battlefield its cast in as it is one of the spell itself.
    I never said otherwise. What I did say was that moving the 5' to get underground was much easier than moving 10'+ laterally, if the caster wrapped the wall around you that way.
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    Default Re: wall of thorns: what is wrong with that spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    I never said otherwise. What I did say was that moving the 5' to get underground was much easier than moving 10'+ laterally, if the caster wrapped the wall around you that way.
    That's a soft maybe at best. Things that grant burrow speeds and even creatures with burrow speeds tend to have values lower than other movement modes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
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