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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    The party would be: Barbarian, Paladin, Wizard, Cleric and Fighter. AC 15-20 roughly.

    I have designed a 1 shot using goblins, then a creature I invented called goblin spider riders, then going into hobgoblins and bugbears and culminating with some really tough Orcs but it was designed around starting at level 3 and ending at level 5 to face the boss Orc and his guard captains.

    Should I just upscale the goblins to CR 6-7 and the Orcs to 9-10? Would it be wiser to simply use a new enemy like Drow? I was planning on having side tunnels and to abuse poison and the stunty ability for goblins to move as a bonus action after attacking, hit and run kiting tactics and using ranged weapons to harass in tight corridors with low LOS to shoot, run, hide over and over. I then planned on using sneaky casters to reinforce some of the tougher enemies and having Bugbears play a striker/assassin role to hit big, disappear and do it all over again, supported by like Nilbogs and other casters.

    Then escalating it until they're fighting really tough stuff like Orc Eye of Gruumsh, Orc Hand of Yurtrus, Orc Red Fang of Shargaas and Orogs etc..

    However this was for level 3-5. Now our party is level 7 and my DM wants me to DM a one shot to "see what it's like" because he's constantly pointing out how boring monsters are in 5e (which they might be? I've never DM'd.) So I wanted to use this as it sounds fun and is an experiment in my own right on fight mechanics, etc anyway, but level 1/4 CR goblins probably wont hit the adventurers often, much less inflict any meaningful damage...

    Any advice on how to upscale or what enemies I could use instead?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Why does it need to be humanoïd enemies though?

    And what do you consider humanoïd? An Ogre is a Giant but I could count him as a humanoïd.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neoh View Post
    Why does it need to be humanoïd enemies though?

    And what do you consider humanoïd? An Ogre is a Giant but I could count him as a humanoïd.
    Because I want intelligent monsters that can plan and coordinate and pull off tactics and organization over just random beasts acting on instinct.

    Also yes, Ogres are humanoids. You know, the old two-legs, two arms, upright, intelligent. Vampires, Ghosts, Liches, Gith, Drow, Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Yuan-Ti (for the most part), even demons and devils to a certain extent.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravinsild View Post
    Because I want intelligent monsters that can plan and coordinate and pull off tactics and organization over just random beasts acting on instinct.

    Also yes, Ogres are humanoids. You know, the old two-legs, two arms, upright, intelligent. Vampires, Ghosts, Liches, Gith, Drow, Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Yuan-Ti (for the most part), even demons and devils to a certain extent.

    Alright, well, first of all, you can just take any playable race and fluff it as any kind of other humanoïd in the books.
    Lizardfolk Shaman? Let's make him a Half-Orc.
    Gladiators make great frontlines enemies and can be remade as anything you want.

    Level up some low-level monsters, Hobgoblin Captain would synergize well with some Gladiators, just give him 19 Str, 18 Con, some saving throws and skills.

    You could add some unintelligent monsters in the mix, maybe they kept one or two Ogre Zombie in cages, maybe those Ogres were infected with Swarm of Insects, burrowing in their rotting bodies (you could also make it Swarm of Rot Grubs but that's a bit intense) and they all come out to attack your players once the Ogre Zombie falls down.

    I don't know if there's a summoner monster in a manual, but let's give this Half-Orc Shaman a Conjure Barlgura/Shadow Demon/Vrock/whatever spell.

    They might all be at the service of a Hag, or a coven of Hags in their lair, get that lair some lair actions and you're set.

    In the end, you can just tweak existing monsters here and there for a fresh feeling.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    How about some Duergar from MToF flavored as "Deep Goblins" or something?
    I'd give each one +10 HP so a single fireball doesn't take them all out.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neoh View Post
    Alright, well, first of all, you can just take any playable race and fluff it as any kind of other humanoïd in the books.
    Lizardfolk Shaman? Let's make him a Half-Orc.
    Gladiators make great frontlines enemies and can be remade as anything you want.

    Level up some low-level monsters, Hobgoblin Captain would synergize well with some Gladiators, just give him 19 Str, 18 Con, some saving throws and skills.

    You could add some unintelligent monsters in the mix, maybe they kept one or two Ogre Zombie in cages, maybe those Ogres were infected with Swarm of Insects, burrowing in their rotting bodies (you could also make it Swarm of Rot Grubs but that's a bit intense) and they all come out to attack your players once the Ogre Zombie falls down.

    I don't know if there's a summoner monster in a manual, but let's give this Half-Orc Shaman a Conjure Barlgura/Shadow Demon/Vrock/whatever spell.

    They might all be at the service of a Hag, or a coven of Hags in their lair, get that lair some lair actions and you're set.

    In the end, you can just tweak existing monsters here and there for a fresh feeling.
    Well my gut instinct was to just level up the goblins and stuff haha. The idea is the goblins live at the entrance and it's heavily trapped, they have a spider lair with huge spiders and goblin spider riders inspired by warhammer. Then they move into the bugbear/hobgoblin area where it's a bit more intense and a little bit more magical and end the dungeon fighting 4 orcs protecting crystals which cause the orc warlock in the center to be invincible who is casting a ritual to summon a powerful demon if they can't break the crystals and interrupt him in time.

    https://imgur.com/a/XgSjfqt
    Last edited by Ravinsild; 2020-02-25 at 04:02 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravinsild View Post
    The idea is the goblins live at the entrance and it's heavily trapped, they have a spider lair with huge spiders and goblin spider riders inspired by warhammer. Then they move into the bugbear/hobgoblin area where it's a bit more intense and a little bit more magical and end the dungeon fighting 4 orcs protecting crystals which cause the orc warlock in the center to be invincible who is casting a ritual to summon a powerful demon if they can't break the crystals and interrupt him in time.
    It sounds like you have a decent encounter planned out- are you shopping for a statblock to apply or willing to substitute out the goblin riders, or spiders for that matter, for the monster with an appropriate CR?

    If anything, I'd slap a few levels of PHB Beastmaster Ranger on the goblins, and add the benefits of a Beastmaster Companion to the spiders (Prof. Bonus to AC, additional HP, there might be more that I'm forgetting). Maybe give a select few of the Riders a Net made from the spider's silk? With enough of these Spider Riders in a pack it'd be a difficult encounter- provided they keep some distance from each other. The spiders should want to keep some distance from each other so that they don't engage in eating the other riders or spiders.
    Last edited by bored_acel; 2020-02-25 at 04:20 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    A death knight, some Archers, and some Gladiators.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Be aware that the PC's exact build and the place where they fight can matter just as much as the kind of monster there. Telling us races, subclasses, and feats will help us help you better. For example: if the party has abilities that counter ranged weapon attacks, make sure the monsters you set against them have ranged weapon attacks as well as the space to use them. It will help them feel like their build is getting used.

    In the case of your party: barbarian, fighter, paladin, and cleric all cope with poison well, regardless of subclass. Maybe throw in some drow so you can give the party something to tough out and 'take advantage of the weakness' of the wizard.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by bored_acel View Post
    It sounds like you have a decent encounter planned out- are you shopping for a statblock to apply or willing to substitute out the goblin riders, or spiders for that matter, for the monster with an appropriate CR?

    If anything, I'd slap a few levels of PHB Beastmaster Ranger on the goblins, and add the benefits of a Beastmaster Companion to the spiders (Prof. Bonus to AC, additional HP, there might be more that I'm forgetting). Maybe give a select few of the Riders a Net made from the spider's silk? With enough of these Spider Riders in a pack it'd be a difficult encounter- provided they keep some distance from each other. The spiders should want to keep some distance from each other so that they don't engage in eating the other riders or spiders.
    Well I wasn't sure how well taking a goblin and just juicing him up to CR 7 would work (there'd be packs of them, I plan on it being team vs team, with front line shield goblins striking and "blocking" for the archers who skuttle around and abusing their bonus action movement to disengage and things like that.) So it'd be front-line goblins and archers backed up by magic, etc and like "monster roles" inspired by 4e fighting the party so large groups, 6-7 goblins. 4-5 goblin spider riders. etc.

    I also thought about undead, having necromancers revive skeletons endless and sending wave after wave at the party over and over until the necromancers are killed. Then progressively having more difficult undead until swarms of like vampire spawn and such attack, and having the final boss be a high level vampire with like a "blood guard" kind of like in Warhammer Fantasy how they control mindless undead to protect them and the vampires are the elite troops (the final bosses and such so to speak).

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Just be sure to remember that if your signature is having Spider Riders that the spiders will also need a little bit more uumph. Otherwise, you'll end up with mounts that get killed after one or two rounds, and then it'll just be skirmishes with goblins.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Add spell casting ability to a few of your bad guys as needed to make it balanced.

    If you play sneaky you can make a kobold layer very difficult for a level 7 party - tactics, terrain, traps, etc make all the difference. I like to have some enemies join the fight from the rear (where the squishies usually hang out).

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    LordCdrMilitant's Avatar

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravinsild View Post
    The party would be: Barbarian, Paladin, Wizard, Cleric and Fighter. AC 15-20 roughly.

    I have designed a 1 shot using goblins, then a creature I invented called goblin spider riders, then going into hobgoblins and bugbears and culminating with some really tough Orcs but it was designed around starting at level 3 and ending at level 5 to face the boss Orc and his guard captains.

    Should I just upscale the goblins to CR 6-7 and the Orcs to 9-10? Would it be wiser to simply use a new enemy like Drow? I was planning on having side tunnels and to abuse poison and the stunty ability for goblins to move as a bonus action after attacking, hit and run kiting tactics and using ranged weapons to harass in tight corridors with low LOS to shoot, run, hide over and over. I then planned on using sneaky casters to reinforce some of the tougher enemies and having Bugbears play a striker/assassin role to hit big, disappear and do it all over again, supported by like Nilbogs and other casters.

    Then escalating it until they're fighting really tough stuff like Orc Eye of Gruumsh, Orc Hand of Yurtrus, Orc Red Fang of Shargaas and Orogs etc..

    However this was for level 3-5. Now our party is level 7 and my DM wants me to DM a one shot to "see what it's like" because he's constantly pointing out how boring monsters are in 5e (which they might be? I've never DM'd.) So I wanted to use this as it sounds fun and is an experiment in my own right on fight mechanics, etc anyway, but level 1/4 CR goblins probably wont hit the adventurers often, much less inflict any meaningful damage...

    Any advice on how to upscale or what enemies I could use instead?
    6 level 8 intelligent humanoids. Or 7 or 8 level 9 or 10 humanoids if your party is well optimized. Or a not-insignificant number of lower level enemies with good preparation.

    And remember, if the party can do it, the enemy can learn to do it too and then some. You can definitely make a very challenging dungeon of just goblins of varying classes and CR.


    From a terrain perspective, if it's underground, use things like tight corridors and murder-holes that limit the player ability to engage the enemy effectively while they're shot at, and the enemy might also use incendiary and explosive traps and area of effect spells. The enemy could also use casters or halfcasters with Misty Step and Dimension Door to deep strike inside of party lines and engage casters and backline characters in melee while also providing heavy pressure on frontline characters. Tunnels that allow the enemies to flank the party are good as well. Outside, the enemy can have prepared positions or even just take advantage of things like cliffs and trees and hills, as well as flank the party to attack from all sides. Gaps, cliffs, and palisades can put space between the enemy shooters and the party's melee fighters.

    From an enemy equipment perspective, having shooters, melee units, and casters represents a fairly powerful encounter if at or above CR. Make liberal use of feats and spells and class features. The party will definitely not forget it if they round a blind corner into a sharpshooter battery of goblin rogue assassins firing through an arrow loop, and then some casters DDoor in with fighters behind them to attack the party casters, break concentrations, and the likes. Especially if the enemy knows counterspell, which can really put a damper on the party's power output and move the initiative to the enemy or force them to tire faster in supposedly weaker encounters.

    In addition, just having the enemy react intelligently can make a big difference without putting the players in a feelsbadI'mtryingtokillyounow situation. Enemies at the entrance might rout as soon as their engaged and sound the alarm. Encounter groups that aren't winning retreat to form up and regroup up with encounters behind them who are digging in, while additional reinforcements come forward to join fights that start to drag out and drive the players back with a steady stream of reserves. And, when the players do things, the first time the enemy might not be ready for it, but the third time they'll know that and have measures in place to oppose it. Never let the party rest and recuperate, be it long or short, launch determined counterattacks if the party stops to short rest or sleep, and either regroup and fortify our outright abandon the position for a new one if the party withdraws for a long rest.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2020-02-26 at 12:16 AM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Add a couple simple encounters before the real challenge so the party has already burned through some resources without resting - 3 little fights where the casters use some big spells, the Barb rages, etc can change the challenge rating quickly.

    Design the encounter with waves of enemies so that it is a war of attrition - again resource management.

    I also like the idea of having the party face Bizarro versions of themselves - same classes, same levels - the very definition of an evenly matched fight.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravinsild View Post
    Because I want intelligent monsters that can plan and coordinate and pull off tactics and organization over just random beasts acting on instinct.

    Also yes, Ogres are humanoids. You know, the old two-legs, two arms, upright, intelligent. Vampires, Ghosts, Liches, Gith, Drow, Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Yuan-Ti (for the most part), even demons and devils to a certain extent.
    hobgoblins, theres a hobgoblin monster in (i think) mtof that gets expertise with weapon attacks (literally the only way to math out their ridiculously high to-hit bonus.

    then you've got hobgoblin devastators: basically hobgoblins...but they're evokers.

    but yeah, hobgoblins are meant to be rather intelligent and tactical.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    VGtM has lots of humanoid stats like champion, war priest or assassin that’s in the CR range you’re looking for. Tack in goblin racial features and there you go. You can add goblin grunts running around, maybe CR 1 or 2. In swarms, they will still be a challenge, especially using the tactics and environments mentioned above.
    Emongnome

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    6 level 8 intelligent humanoids. Or 7 or 8 level 9 or 10 humanoids if your party is well optimized. Or a not-insignificant number of lower level enemies with good preparation.

    And remember, if the party can do it, the enemy can learn to do it too and then some. You can definitely make a very challenging dungeon of just goblins of varying classes and CR.


    From a terrain perspective, if it's underground, use things like tight corridors and murder-holes that limit the player ability to engage the enemy effectively while they're shot at, and the enemy might also use incendiary and explosive traps and area of effect spells. The enemy could also use casters or halfcasters with Misty Step and Dimension Door to deep strike inside of party lines and engage casters and backline characters in melee while also providing heavy pressure on frontline characters. Tunnels that allow the enemies to flank the party are good as well. Outside, the enemy can have prepared positions or even just take advantage of things like cliffs and trees and hills, as well as flank the party to attack from all sides. Gaps, cliffs, and palisades can put space between the enemy shooters and the party's melee fighters.

    From an enemy equipment perspective, having shooters, melee units, and casters represents a fairly powerful encounter if at or above CR. Make liberal use of feats and spells and class features. The party will definitely not forget it if they round a blind corner into a sharpshooter battery of goblin rogue assassins firing through an arrow loop, and then some casters DDoor in with fighters behind them to attack the party casters, break concentrations, and the likes. Especially if the enemy knows counterspell, which can really put a damper on the party's power output and move the initiative to the enemy or force them to tire faster in supposedly weaker encounters.

    In addition, just having the enemy react intelligently can make a big difference without putting the players in a feelsbadI'mtryingtokillyounow situation. Enemies at the entrance might rout as soon as their engaged and sound the alarm. Encounter groups that aren't winning retreat to form up and regroup up with encounters behind them who are digging in, while additional reinforcements come forward to join fights that start to drag out and drive the players back with a steady stream of reserves. And, when the players do things, the first time the enemy might not be ready for it, but the third time they'll know that and have measures in place to oppose it. Never let the party rest and recuperate, be it long or short, launch determined counterattacks if the party stops to short rest or sleep, and either regroup and fortify our outright abandon the position for a new one if the party withdraws for a long rest.
    Yeah I really like this advice, and it was along the lines of what I was thinking, I just wasn't sure if I ought to use the goblins literally as is straight from the MM or juice them up a bit.

    However I actually think I am going to use undead. I'm going to play a Vampire Counts army against them. At first it will be just normal skeletons, and they'll die easily and quickly. Hah! What an easy dungeon they'll think.

    Then next encounter will probably be against giant bats and swarms of bats, and that might be a bit more challenging. I'll have archers shoot at disadvantage, because in Warhammer swarms of bats basically negate archers and provide cover for your approaching troops.

    Then I'll have them face the Grave Guard: More elite advanced skeletons backed by a Necromancer and a White King. A powerful Skeleton Lord with an aura that gives 1 extra attack to all Graveguard. The Necromancer will revive slain Grave Guard over and over and use a spell called Vanhel's Dance Macabre which is like a Fighter's Action Surge, BUT FOR ALL GRAVE GUARD. They fight twice! The leaders will continue to buff and support the grave guard who will continue to regenerate until they are slain.

    There will be ghosts and banshees in the walls that try to possess our heroes, and drain attacks to bring them low, as well as the rest of the stuff banshees and ghosts do.

    Then there will be Vampire Spawn and Blood Knights, elite powerful vampires. I'm not sure what I'll do with that right now, but the final boss will definitely be a very strong vampire with very strong body guards, escalating the level of dangerous undead from lowbie skeletons to greater undead like a Vampire Lord.

    I like to steal things from Warhammer like the buffs, maybe some spells, and of course everything D&D has to offer.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    LordCdrMilitant's Avatar

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    Default Re: What are some good humanoid enemies for 5 level 7 Adventurers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravinsild View Post
    Yeah I really like this advice, and it was along the lines of what I was thinking, I just wasn't sure if I ought to use the goblins literally as is straight from the MM or juice them up a bit.

    However I actually think I am going to use undead. I'm going to play a Vampire Counts army against them. At first it will be just normal skeletons, and they'll die easily and quickly. Hah! What an easy dungeon they'll think.

    Then next encounter will probably be against giant bats and swarms of bats, and that might be a bit more challenging. I'll have archers shoot at disadvantage, because in Warhammer swarms of bats basically negate archers and provide cover for your approaching troops.

    Then I'll have them face the Grave Guard: More elite advanced skeletons backed by a Necromancer and a White King. A powerful Skeleton Lord with an aura that gives 1 extra attack to all Graveguard. The Necromancer will revive slain Grave Guard over and over and use a spell called Vanhel's Dance Macabre which is like a Fighter's Action Surge, BUT FOR ALL GRAVE GUARD. They fight twice! The leaders will continue to buff and support the grave guard who will continue to regenerate until they are slain.

    There will be ghosts and banshees in the walls that try to possess our heroes, and drain attacks to bring them low, as well as the rest of the stuff banshees and ghosts do.

    Then there will be Vampire Spawn and Blood Knights, elite powerful vampires. I'm not sure what I'll do with that right now, but the final boss will definitely be a very strong vampire with very strong body guards, escalating the level of dangerous undead from lowbie skeletons to greater undead like a Vampire Lord.

    I like to steal things from Warhammer like the buffs, maybe some spells, and of course everything D&D has to offer.
    I mean, the same principles still apply whether the enemies are Kobolds or Tau Fire Warriors.

    React intelligently, use the battlefield to their advantage, and avoid engaging the party in ways that they're strong.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2020-02-26 at 08:24 PM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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