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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Aug 2010

    Default Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    So I did a thing... Can you help me to improve it?

    Sadly I must start with acknowledging, that it requires GM ruling on Southern Mage can be available (against RAW) to dwarves. I would obviously talk about a wandering shield dwarf living with some Mulan people, but still.

    Now that that is out of the way, the goal of the build is to reach the gish benchmark, without losing out on spellcasting, and reaching level 9 spells as soon as possible. From there I had to give up to casting levels (18 & 20) to reach 16 BAB, but by that time it is only about the number of spells, not the spells themselves.

    Thematically the character is obviously a protector of the Mountain, and a wizard who gets fed up with staying in the back behind the lines.

    I find it entertaining, that until level 10, the character is a bog standard wizard (at least in play-style), and then by level 10-12ish, we are in full-blown gish mood.

    Level Class (level) BAB Caster lvl Spell lvl Feature Feat
    1 Domain Wizard 1 0 1 1 Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, Arcane domain Iron Will
    2 Domain Wizard 2 1 2 1
    3 Domain Wizard 3 1 3 2 Southern Magician
    4 Domain Wizard 4 2 4 2
    5 Geomancer 1 2 5 3 Drift 1, Spell versatility 0
    6 Geomancer 2 3 6 3 Drift 1, Spell versatility 1, Ley lines +1 Dodge
    7 Geomancer 3 4 7 4 Drift 2, Spell versatility 2
    8 Geomancer 4 5 8 4 Drift 2, Spell versatility 3
    9 Dragon Slayer 1 6 9 5 Aura of Courage, Damage Bonus,
    Weapon & Armour proficiencies
    Combat Casting
    10 Runesmith 1 6 10 5 Rune Magic
    11 Abjurant Champion 1 7 11 6 Abjurant armour, extended abjuration
    12 Abjurant Champion 2 8 12 6 Swift abjuration Arcane strike
    13 Abjurant Champion 3 9 13 7
    14 Abjurant Champion 4 10 14 7 Arcane boost
    15 Abjurant Champion 5 11 15 8 Martial Arcanist Arcane Mastery
    16 Runesmith 2 12 16 8 Stonecraft expertise
    17 Spell Sword 1 13 17 9 Ignore ASF 10%
    18 Spell Sword 2 14 17(+1) 9 Practiced Spellcaster
    19 Spell Sword 3 15 18(+1) 9 Ignore ASF 15%
    20 Spell Sword 4 16 18(+2) 9 Channel spell 3/day

    I'm really open to suggestions to further improve the concept.

    If I would have the options for the two flaws from UE, I'd probably go with getting dodge and iron will @ level 1, letting everything go up a few levels and add Extraordinary concentration and Spell penetration @ level 12 & 15 respectively.

    Beyond asking for general advice, to have a few exact questions:
    • Could you suggest better feats then above?
    • Which arcane domain would most fit the build?
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-26 at 06:10 AM. Reason: even better readability

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Why not go with human? Eliminating somatic components doesn't matter that much when you won't be using physical armor anyways.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    The whole concept would be to be a heavy armoured dwarven mage. Sorry, I didn't specify the foundational goal. This is the aspect, which is a theme goal, not necessarily a pure OP objective.

    Also, why wouldn't I use physical armour? (I know, luminous, but a fully enchanted armour can be an alternative.)

    In my mind, the character would use the heaviest possible armour, a two-handed martial weapon, and a Shield spell.
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-26 at 08:22 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    May 2019

    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Crazy question, maybe I'm missing something or my googlefu is weak, but what is the Arcane domain? Is that some custom Wizard Domain for the Domain Wizard?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Do it sha'ir, and get iron will through the otyugh's hole. The use the first two feat slots for scribe scroll (possibly the Eward's hall gives it for free) and to expand your class skills (you need it to qualify for the geomancer). So you don't need southern magician.
    Last edited by Kaleph; 2020-02-26 at 12:44 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Thumbs up Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Afghanistan View Post
    (...)what is the Arcane domain? Is that some custom Wizard Domain for the Domain Wizard?
    It is actually that the name of the feat a Domain Wizard gets. I didn't yet know which domain to choose thus I haven't edited it.
    However, it is now moot, as:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Do it sha'ir (...) So you don't need southern magician.
    Wow, brilliant, thank you, yess !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    (...) get iron will through the otyugh's hole. The use the first two feat slots for scribe scroll (possibly the Eward's hall gives it [for free) and to expand your class skills (you need it to qualify for the geomancer) (...)
    I'll go though with the otyugh if the DM approves, get a flaw if not.
    Do you mean Heward's Hall? Sadly it seems to me it doesn't work. However Knowledge Devotion might be an alternative at level 3.

    That would mean something like this:

    Level Class (level) BAB Caster lvl Spell lvl Feature Feat
    1 Sha'ir 1 0 1 1 Summon Gen familiar Scribe scroll, Iron Will
    (Flaw or Otyugh's hole)
    2 Sha'ir 2 1 2 1
    3 Sha'ir 3 1 3 2 Recognize genie works Knowledge Devotion (Nature)
    4 Sha'ir 4 2 4 2
    5 Geomancer 1 2 5 3 Drift 1, Spell versatility 0
    6 Geomancer 2 3 6 3 Drift 1, Spell versatility 1, Ley lines +1 Dodge
    7 Geomancer 3 4 7 4 Drift 2, Spell versatility 2
    8 Geomancer 4 5 8 4 Drift 2, Spell versatility 3
    9 Dragon Slayer 1 6 9 5 Aura of Courage, Damage Bonus,
    Weapon & Armour proficiencies
    Combat Casting
    10 Runesmith 1 6 10 5 Rune Magic
    11 Abjurant Champion 1 7 11 6 Abjurant armour, extended abjuration
    12 Abjurant Champion 2 8 12 6 Swift abjuration Arcane strike
    13 Abjurant Champion 3 9 13 7
    14 Abjurant Champion 4 10 14 7 Arcane boost
    15 Abjurant Champion 5 11 15 8 Martial Arcanist Arcane Mastery
    16 Runesmith 2 12 16 8 Stonecraft expertise
    17 Spell Sword 1 13 17 9 Ignore ASF 10%
    18 Spell Sword 2 14 17(+1) 9 Practiced Spellcaster
    19 Spell Sword 3 15 18(+1) 9 Ignore ASF 15%
    20 Spell Sword 4 16 18(+2) 9 Channel spell 3/day

    This would also open up playing a Gold Dwarf, which is way better from a race harmony with the build point of view.
    Or rather a Draconic Gold Dwarf for a bit more oomph on all relevant attributes, and a buy off at level 3.

    Knowledge devotion is a more useful skill for the build as Southern Magician, and Iron Will should be manageable.

    Thank's for the idea Kaleph, once again!
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-26 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Added Draconic Template

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Giltintur View Post
    It is actually that the name of the feat a Domain Wizard gets. I didn't yet know which domain to choose thus I haven't edited it.
    Ah, I was confused there. It's a class feature that Domain Wizard gets.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Do it sha'ir
    There's a single challange here: Diplomacy stops being a class skill after Geomancer :(

    I've seen education (that in fearun is a non-dwarf feat), and apprenticeship as ways to get skills, but they don't help much better than knowledge devotion.
    Is there any way, to gain BOTH Knowledge Nature and Diplomacy as class skill with a dwarf?

    Please disregard. With the rules on a sha'ir, the test always succeeds with 4 ranks on a take 10, even for the highest possible castable divine spell.

    I calculated Sha'ir level as caster level, which is incorrect. Therefore sadly my question stands.
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-26 at 05:59 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Maat Mons's Avatar

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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Couldn't you do the same thing with Cleric 16 / Dragonslayer 4? Or with Cleric 16 / Prestige Paladin 4? Substitute some of those Cleric levels for a prestige class if you like. Runecaster seems thematic.

    Is Geomancer just there because it's 3/4 BAB and full casting? You can use divine PrCs to advance Sha'ir, right? You sure there isn't some 3/4 BAB, full casting divine PrC that would be better in the build?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Giltintur View Post
    There's a single challange here: Diplomacy stops being a class skill after Geomancer :(

    I've seen education (that in fearun is a non-dwarf feat), and apprenticeship as ways to get skills, but they don't help much better than knowledge devotion.
    Is there any way, to gain BOTH Knowledge Nature and Diplomacy as class skill with a dwarf?

    Please disregard. With the rules on a sha'ir, the test always succeeds with 4 ranks on a take 10, even for the highest possible castable divine spell.

    I calculated Sha'ir level as caster level, which is incorrect. Therefore sadly my question stands.
    Try academy graduate

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Question Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Try academy graduate
    I'll either try that discussing with my DM that I need a mentor for my apprenticeship who is a Diplomacy/Knowledge Nature beast, or go with noble born/academy graduate for Diplomacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Couldn't you do the same thing with Cleric 16 / Dragonslayer 4? Or with Cleric 16 / Prestige Paladin 4? Substitute some of those Cleric levels for a prestige class if you like. Runecaster seems thematic.
    Indeed, it is thematic, and I wish to play a wizard or equivalent arcane caster. Thus Sha'ir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Is Geomancer just there because it's 3/4 BAB and full casting? You can use divine PrCs to advance Sha'ir, right? You sure there isn't some 3/4 BAB, full casting divine PrC that would be better in the build?
    3/4 BAB, full spellcasting and available at levels 5-8. The alternative would be Full BAB full casting from level 7-8, with a 1/2 BAB full casting class (Sha'ir or prestige) for level 5-6.

    So I need to reach the BAB of 5 by level 8. And to be honest, having 4+ skill points is an additional benefit, as this way with an Intelligence of 12+ the required skills can easily be maxed (Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Concentration) with all the silly little requirements of the various classes.

    With a quick search, I didn't find anything that I could go for. Does anyone know of one?
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-27 at 04:46 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    d6 Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Try academy graduate
    I have calculated with Noble Born as a feat (meaning the build requires least one flaw to function):
    This means Diplomacy and Knowledge: Nobles & Royalty are class skills. In this case with Sha'ir spellcasting with diplomacy and other required skills are achievable. Providing, that Intelligence is at least 14, as the skill points are quite needed.

    Lvl Class___(level) Spell-slot level Known spell w/ take 10 Divine spell w/ take 10 Know.: Arcana Know.: Nature Tumble Diplomacy Concentration Spellcraft Know.: Nobility Bluff Craft
    1 Sha'ir 1 1 0 n/a 4 4 4 4
    2 Sha'ir 2 1 1 n/a 5 5 5 5
    3 Sha'ir 3 2 2 n/a 6 3
    4 Sha'ir 4 2 2 0 6 6
    5 Geomancer 1 3 3 1 8 4
    6 Geomancer 2 3 3 2 9 3 5 1
    7 Geomancer 3 4 4 3 10 5 4
    8 Geomancer 4 4 4 4 2 11 5
    9 Drag. Slayer 1 5 5 4 12 8
    10 Runesmith 1 5 5 5 13 8
    11 Abj. Champ. 1 6 6 5 14 8
    12 Abj. Champ. 2 6 6 6 15 10 9
    13 Abj. Champ. 3 7 7 6 16 11 11
    14 Abj. Champ. 4 7 7 7 17 13 12
    15 Abj. Champ. 5 8 8 7 18 14 14
    16 Runesmith 2 8 8 8 19 16 15
    17 Spell Sword 1 9 9 9 20 17 17
    18 Spell Sword 2 9 9 9 19 19
    19 Spell Sword 3 9 9 9 21 21
    20 Spell Sword 4 9 9 9 23 23


    Diplomacy is required at until all spells are certanly reachable, but I think a bit more lenient maxing of concentration and spellcraft are managable.
    I spent on Bluff and Knowledge: Royalty and Nobility only for the synergies.

    Is this an optimal spending of skills, or am I going unnesseraly overboard with anything?
    Other than character optimising, which is a goal anyhow.
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-27 at 10:20 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    I'm a bit lost (it may depend on the fact I'm with my mobile phone, which isn't optimal to read long posts).

    If you can take academy graduate, you get diplomacy, knowledge (nature) and knowledge (nobility etc.) as class skills with one feats; if you really need two, I have the feeling that the build could become suboptimal, even for a gish.

    With a human it would be of course easier, due to the bonus feat and the OA human subraces - although I understand beeing a dwarf is part of the concept. In addition, did you identify a dwarf sub-race that possibly doesn't hit charisma?

    By the way, for scribe scroll I was indeed referring to Heward's (not Eward's) hall, you're right. There's an adaptation that grants an item creation feat for free, I wouldn't ignore it (even if it is admittedly difficult to fulfil the prerequisites).

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Post Re: Runesmith concept - getting lvl 9 spells by 17th, hitting gish benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    I'm a bit lost (it may depend on the fact I'm with my mobile phone, which isn't optimal to read long posts).

    If you can take academy graduate, you get diplomacy, knowledge (nature) and knowledge (nobility etc.) as class skills with one feats; if you really need two, I have the feeling that the build could become suboptimal, even for a gish.

    With a human it would be of course easier, due to the bonus feat and the OA human subraces - although I understand beeing a dwarf is part of the concept. In addition, did you identify a dwarf sub-race that possibly doesn't hit charisma?

    By the way, for scribe scroll I was indeed referring to Heward's (not Eward's) hall, you're right. There's an adaptation that grants an item creation feat for free, I wouldn't ignore it (even if it is admittedly difficult to fulfil the prerequisites).
    The chart just shows skills, and the diplomacy required for maximal possible retrieval. I didn't even calculate with drift 2, so it's even better, I just need 16 ranks. Thank's to your handbook I realised it.

    Academy graduate is wonderful, I'll use it :)

    Indeed, Gold Dwarf is -2 Dex +2 Constitution. The Dex penalty hurts due to dodge, but nothing horrible, and way better than a penalty to the single attribute that matters
    With a 32 point buy without templates it would mean an okay spread. With a Draconic template for +1LA it would be even better with reducing LA at level 3.

    Gold Dwarf Draconic
    Gold Dwarf
    Strength 12 14
    Dexterity 13 13
    Constitution 14 16
    Intelligence 14 14
    Wisdom 8 8
    Charisma 16 18


    Regards to Scribe Scroll & Heward's: is this written somewhere, I can't seem to see it in Complete Scoundrel
    Scrap that, I found it "any item creation feats". It's a viable alternative, or if not, then Domain Draught: Rune Domain would be a fun alternative to qualify for Runesmith level 1.
    Last edited by Giltintur; 2020-02-29 at 01:09 PM.

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