Mafia Capital (WWC XIII): Important Info Here -- READ OPENING POSTS!

[Snowblaze]

*finger guns*

Please don't kill me! Just give me time to proof-read!

[AvatarVecna]

Please don't kill me! Just give me time to proof-read!

Wasn't meant in a threatening way, just an acknowledgement.

[Snowblaze]

Wasn't meant in a threatening way, just an acknowledgement.

I know, but... self-preservation.

[Aventine]

I have been a devil role that was town before.

I'm fairly certain I was scum in that game, and spent a long time arguing that a town devil made no sense and you must be scum. And I also think I didn't get penalized at all for making such a ridiculous and obviously self-serving argument...

[Duck999]

I have been a devil role that was town before.

Did I do that? I feel like that was the game where I gave a ton of people the roles they asked for as jokes but twisted in some way.

I believe the game's title was Mass Chaos and it was the point where I gave up attempting to balance things. Oops.

[Aventine]

Did I do that? I feel like that was the game where I gave a ton of people the roles they asked for as jokes but twisted in some way.

I believe the game's title was Mass Chaos and it was the point where I gave up attempting to balance things. Oops.

From what I remember, despite being entirely unbalanced it actually ended up reasonably close, with town still having a chance to win the final night. Plus, I was paranoid enough and second guessing myself enough that I easily could have made the wrong move at that point.

[Duck999]

From what I remember, despite being entirely unbalanced it actually ended up reasonably close, with town still having a chance to win the final night. Plus, I was paranoid enough and second guessing myself enough that I easily could have made the wrong move at that point.

Yeah, I went back and took a look and the game ended with you, the last wolf, winning with 1/9 of your starting lives.

[Aventine]

Yeah, I went back and took a look and the game ended with you, the last wolf, winning with 1/9 of your starting lives.

Yeah, I enjoyed that game. And the fact that I went from being super over-confident and convinced that nine lives was way too overpowered early in the game, to panicking at the end because I lost all the extra lives and so could actually lose and oh god I'm going to blow it aren't I? is very entertaining to look back on.

[Snowblaze]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post24488099

Evil Villains Werewolf is now recruiting!

[Elenna]

Did I do that? I feel like that was the game where I gave a ton of people the roles they asked for as jokes but twisted in some way.

I believe the game's title was Mass Chaos and it was the point where I gave up attempting to balance things. Oops.

I forgot about that game! Apparently I died night 2 and yet basically won the game for wolves by giving Logic a fake scry which resulted in him trusting Aventine?

[JeenLeen]

Sorta a meta question, as I prep some details for my far-future game.

We've had games where all roles were known, but there were less players than roles, and thus fake claims were risky but doable, in the Wizard Tower Mafia game (to a small degree) and also the X-Men game.
We had a game break because all roles were known and a mass-claim occurred, in the Corporate Mafia.
We had a game where roles were unknown, but the wolves were given fake roles they knew weren't redundant with town, in order to prevent a mass-claim breaking the game (Harry Potter).

What's the thoughts on what works best?
I lean towards something like the first option, where a list of roles is offered, but the roles are less than the players. It gives the wolves a risk and tension to lying and making a claim, but it also prevents game-breaking stuff.
I also wonder, with that option, if it's best to state beforehand what the powers are or to just have hints. I'm thinking for my game, I'll give hints, but the real power won't be revealed until the person dies.

[AvatarVecna]

Sorta a meta question, as I prep some details for my far-future game.

We've had games where all roles were known, but there were less players than roles, and thus fake claims were risky but doable, in the Wizard Tower Mafia game (to a small degree) and also the X-Men game.
We had a game break because all roles were known and a mass-claim occurred, in the Corporate Mafia.
We had a game where roles were unknown, but the wolves were given fake roles they knew weren't redundant with town, in order to prevent a mass-claim breaking the game (Harry Potter).

What's the thoughts on what works best?
I lean towards something like the first option, where a list of roles is offered, but the roles are less than the players. It gives the wolves a risk and tension to lying and making a claim, but it also prevents game-breaking stuff.
I also wonder, with that option, if it's best to state beforehand what the powers are or to just have hints. I'm thinking for my game, I'll give hints, but the real power won't be revealed until the person dies.

So first and most obvious point: this is generally only really a problem in all-power-role games. There's a really easy solution in most versions of mafia: have vanillagers.

In an all-PR game, I tend to use one of two tactics, sometimes at the same time:

The first is "no public information about neutrals". This lets me more easily adjust the final balance between the town and the scum (say, if 3 wolves is too weak but 4 is too strong, I can add a town-aligned neutral), while also giving room for people fake-claiming neutral for whatever reason.

The second is, have more publicly-listed roles than players. This can be a bit tricky because you don't know how many players there's going to be; if you set too few, there's not much room for fake-claiming (hard to pull off a public fake-claim when there's 29 players and 30 public roles); if you set too many, then fake-claiming is too easy and puzzling out the fake-claims is too hard (imagine if there were 29 players and 50 public roles, it's basically a coinflip whether any particular role is in the game or not). How much information you give about these roles is almost irrelevant to how well this tactic works.

[Aventine]

I would say, in all-PR games the standard would be to just not publicly reveal the roles until after the game (possibly providing the wolves with fake-claims) to just avoid problems with mass claims. (It also makes it harder for people to spot ways to break the game).

That said, the game set-up I was thinking I'd run, out of a desire to see it in practice after having seen it in the archive, has an open set-up, but an SK that becomes temporarily unkillable from correctly identifing other players. So a mass claim would just hand them the win. So some way like that to make mass claiming a bad idea also works.

[JeenLeen]

My game will be a no-QuickTopics/private-PMs game as well, so that should help cut down on the risk of mass-claims.
I'm thinking something like the Necromancer from the Wizards game, utilizing the deadchat. And someone who can initiate QuickTopics as their night power.

When I was a wolf in the X-Men game, I found it kinda fun to try to figure out the likelihood of what roles were used or not. Admittingly, there were probably 5-10 roles extra there. In the Wizards game, there was 1 extra role, which made a fake claim unsafe until late game.

[AvatarVecna]

YMMV, I'm personally not a fan of being a town vig, since I just end up not using the power almost every night out of never feeling certain enough to kill a target.

Oh yeah, heavily dislike the role as a general rule when I'm town. Love it when I'm a wolf. A wolf+vig kill in the night is strictly speaking worse than two wolf kills, sure, since the vig might accidentally hit a wolf, but that's kinda the thing: 99% of the time a vig hits a wolf, it's definitely an accident.

A trigger-happy vig can ruin things for town even if everything else is going pretty great for them.

[JeenLeen]

Oh yeah, heavily dislike the role as a general rule when I'm town. Love it when I'm a wolf. A wolf+vig kill in the night is strictly speaking worse than two wolf kills, sure, since the vig might accidentally hit a wolf, but that's kinda the thing: 99% of the time a vig hits a wolf, it's definitely an accident.

A trigger-happy vig can ruin things for town even if everything else is going pretty great for them.

It certainly helped us wolves in the Wizard Tower game

But, in general, I've like it when the kill power was paired with something like. Like the "kill or bane" we've seen a couple times, or the "void or kill" for Cyclops in the X-Men game. That gives the townie something fun to do (so they don't feel like they wasted the Night) without leaving their only option as an extra death.

[Aventine]

My game will be a no-QuickTopics/private-PMs game as well, so that should help cut down on the risk of mass-claims.

Do keep in mind that while not allowing private communication avoids having mass claims by PM, it doesn't do anything about public mass claims. Having everyone claim in thread, then focusing the lynch on anyone who refuses or doubles up can still potentially break a game.

YMMV, I'm personally not a fan of being a town vig, since I just end up not using the power almost every night out of never feeling certain enough to kill a target.

Oh yeah, heavily dislike the role as a general rule when I'm town. Love it when I'm a wolf. A wolf+vig kill in the night is strictly speaking worse than two wolf kills, sure, since the vig might accidentally hit a wolf, but that's kinda the thing: 99% of the time a vig hits a wolf, it's definitely an accident.

A trigger-happy vig can ruin things for town even if everything else is going pretty great for them.

A vig that is at least as good at finding wolves as the lynch voting is makes the game faster, but shifts the ratio of kills in the favor of ones that can actually kill wolves. Whether the person who gets the role is good enough at scum-hunting for that to work out is still a toss up, of course. So I would probably be more of the philosophy that vig kills should be used sparingly.

I would say though that judicious use of vig power can be helpful even if the vig isn't confident in their scum-hunting. If the next day's lynch is a foregone conclusion (if someone got caught in a fake-claim, as a clear example), then vigging the inevitable victim skips a day that wouldn't provide much information anyway and so essentially denies the wolves an NK. Somewhat less clear-cut, if there is a complex day with competing wagons that go back and forth before finally lynching a townie, and so potentially has a lot of information to be gained from who voted where and when, vigging the other wagon gives a quicker answer to whether the competing wagons were town-town or town-wolf.

So, I think the information side of things could be just as important to consider as simply the pure likelihood of the target being a wolf. If someone's death gives town useful information, without losing too much from not having the voting pattern, then it can be worth it to essentially skip an NK.

[Thingyman]

Hi guys

Avatar’s Championship game has been scheduled :)

GAME 9 (JUNE 8, 48/24, 12 PM EDT EOD)
AvatarVecna (Giant in the Playground)
BleedsIsDead (Football Forums)
Boquise (MafiaManiac)
Gomes (Hattrick.org (Portuguese))
Hermynator (Further Entertainment)
Holyflare (Team Liquid)
Hyde1085 (Mafia - A Game Of Trust And Deception)
kjeremyth (GreyWolf Werewolf Club)
MagykalWagykal (Flight Rising)
mewtini (The Cave of Dragonflies)
Poison (AnimeBase)
Samusamu (Mediavida)
SkyWalker (Shannii Writes)
Sunset (Werwolf Online)
SuperSaiyan (Wrestling Clique)

Do you wish to spectate and/or talk with players from other communities?
We have a big server on Discord (1,000+ members) for those that want to spectate and talk about these games. The representatives will be added to this channel too after they die. Or if you just want to chat with people from other communities, we have a general chat too that is unrelated to the Mafia Championship.

1) CLICK HERE TO JOIN: discord. gg/CwDKmjQ

2) Upon joining the server, please inform us of who you are and which community you are from. We will then give you the necessary permissions to see the spectator channel. This is necessary to avoid the wrong people (the representatives and their backups) joining the channel.

You don't need to have Discord installed in order to join the channel, as there is a web version.

Do you want to have your own private community spectator chat?
This is definitely both allowed and encouraged. However, I ask that you please do everything possible to make this chat private and inaccessible to your representative, backup and your representative's opponents. It's important that your thoughts and comments don't influence the game. In other words, please don't post about the game in public threads -- this is very important.

Mafia Championship Podcast
For the first time ever, there will be a Mafia Championship podcast.

The first episode goes live on Twitch at Sunday 4 PM Eastern - i.e. tomorrow. It will feature 4 former winners. There will also be podcasts on the following Sundays.

It will go live here, if you are interested: twitch. tv/mrthingyman/

Where do I get more info?
Refer to this thread: mafiauniverse. com/forums/threads/25499-Season-7-General-Information

This thread will tell you all the details about this season. It also includes a list of the 165 participating communities and their representatives.

__________

If you need to get in contact with me, my Discord is Thingyman#6075

[AvatarVecna]

Do you wish to spectate and/or talk with players from other communities?
We have a big server on Discord (1,000+ members) for those that want to spectate and talk about these games. The representatives will be added to this channel too after they die. Or if you just want to chat with people from other communities, we have a general chat too that is unrelated to the Mafia Championship.

1) CLICK HERE TO JOIN: discord. gg/CwDKmjQ

2) Upon joining the server, please inform us of who you are and which community you are from. We will then give you the necessary permissions to see the spectator channel. This is necessary to avoid the wrong people (the representatives and their backups) joining the channel.

Fixing the link, since Thingyman doesn't meet the prerequisite for posting links ITP: discord.gg/CwDKmjQ

[Valmark]

I'm curious- those of you who have more experience with games completely devoid of power roles (meaning those that played more then one) what do you think of them? That game I was in ended up pretty one-sided (also because Town got into a pretty big argument between itself) and internet seems to confirm my idea of those kind of games being heavily stacked in favor of the wolves (the wiki even stated that the wolves' win should be almost certain) but I wanted to know how it held up in practice.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm curious- those of you who have more experience with games completely devoid of power roles (meaning those that played more then one) what do you think of them? That game I was in ended up pretty one-sided (also because Town got into a pretty big argument between itself) and internet seems to confirm my idea of those kind of games being heavily stacked in favor of the wolves (the wiki even stated that the wolves' win should be almost certain) but I wanted to know how it held up in practice.

Default mafia at least assumes a lone seer, so a no-PR game has to account for that a bit in order to avoid balancing things in the scum's favor by default. Such a game is thus less viable than normal in a community where player numbers tend to be lower.

Low/No PR games tend to lean extremely heavily on analysis since that's all there is to go on, and "town doesnt dig into things or gather information" is a fantastic way to hand the game to the wolves even if they're not trying. Such a game is thus less viable than normal in a community where players are relatively quiet and occasionally entirely absent.

I've previously laid out my opinion on why new players are drawn to PR-heavy games - that they want a hand in how the game goes, and that's a heck of a lot easier to get if it's handed to you by your role than if you have to work hard for it while you're still trying to familiarize yourself with both the game in general and your particular community. A low/no PR game throws all players into the deep end to sink or swim on their bare skill/experience, and games with lower overall experience present tend to swing wolf just as a matter of course. Such a game is thus less viable than normal in a community where a significant percentage of the player base hasn't exactly been playing for years and years.

There are probably communities out there absolutely brimming with talkative experienced players, communities where a low/no PR game can totally go town's way. But that's not gonna be the norm. Most communities are going to have low player numbers, or quiet players, or new players, or some combination of the three.

[Unavenger]

The correct ratio for a no-PR setup is usually around 4-5 town per wolf, and that's for a community that actually does day analysis properly and has longer days. The setup we had was one of 3.5 town per wolf (which is about right for a game with a town power role for each wolf, and long enough days to do something about it), shorter days, and in a community where analysis gets you lynched. Of course the wolves were going to win.

[AvatarVecna]

There's now an "Out Of Context Quotes" section in the Lulz post of this thread. I'll be keeping an eye out for stuff worth adding to it, but if you've got submissions you'd like added, holler 'em at me here.

[Valmark]

I should point out that my game should be "urban", not "general".

Also, Snow's game is missing the link, assuming it should have it in the first place >.>

[AvatarVecna]

I should point out that my game should be "urban", not "general".

Also, Snow's game is missing the link, assuming it should have it in the first place >.>

I'll adjust that stuff, apologies.

- - - Updated - - -

Updated.

[Valmark]

This makes me realize something.

After Snow's game starts I'm up, aren't I? Did Durzan reply?

[AvatarVecna]

This makes me realize something.

After Snow's game starts I'm up, aren't I? Did Durzan reply?

I keep moving Durzan back, but I should honestly remove him from the schedule. Hasn't replied to PMs, or publicly.

So...I suppose so.

[Valmark]

Getting cold knees. On another note, I'll probably let people go nuts on QTs- night phase is terribly dull for me without talks.

[JeenLeen]

Getting cold knees.

If that's the same meaning as "cold feet": if you want more time to plan your game, someone later in the queue would probably be happy to switch with you.

[Valmark]

Nah, I'll do it, thank you. And yeah, that's the same meaning... Wonder where I heard knees, maybe I just got the body part wrong.