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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JumboWheat01's Avatar

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Wouldn't Temporary Damage be akin to the old "Non-lethal Damage" that you had in 3.x?
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Hit Points are not meat. When taking that into consideration, I don't think there's any further reason to try and explain it in an exhaustive way. I think anything that would cause LTD could explain how it occurs in a plethora of different ways.
    You quoted me saying HPs were a mix of physical/adrenaline/mental reserves, with only the last hit being a major wound. I agree that HPs are not meat. But they are a story telling tool. They tell the story of how someone gets worn down by fighting. I use it as a guide to narrate fights in game. What story does LTD facilitate telling? A necromantic curse that sucks up life magic? A particularly vicious poison that disrupts healing? The Wailing Death from Neverwinter Nights?

    See, I have to have a story explanation every game mechanic, but with an hour for the idea to gestate and some ideas come through.

    I don't think it's the best implementation for that idea, though. I would represent those stories as something else. Get just a few points of something that reduces healing received. Like the old 3.5 Barbarians' DR, except reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rules Text goes in boxes
    If you have 2 points of 'Enduring Damage' than every time you are healed by a magic or spending hit dice, you are healed for 2 less points than the dice say you should be (minimum of 0 healing). Enduring Damage doesn't stack, just keep the highest number. If there are saves involved, keep the highest save DC, and the worst frequency for making saves. Extended Damage might be cured automatically in a long rest, just as THPs expire on one, or might only allow a save in a Long Rest (depending on how harsh the source is.) Likewise Remove Curse might outright cure it, but with harsher forms of Enduring Damage the spell merely allows another save.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    Hit points are an illusion. Temporary hit points doubly so.
    Can you disbelieve your opponents' hit points?

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    AD&D 2e had something similar for unarmed combat... 25% was real, the rest would return with a turn's rest (a turn being 10 minutes). I would also use it for damage from illusions; if you go "burned" by a "fire elemental", you'd lose the damage once you realized you were fighting an illusion. If you reached 0 HP from a combination of real and temporary damage, then you were knocked unconscious, but you're wake up after a turn of rest (i.e. you were knocked out for 10 minutes or so). IIRC, magical healing also got rid of temporary damage, without reducing the amount of healing.... so if I was healed for 5 HP, I would gain 5 HP and lose 5 temporary damage.

    If I were to implement it in 5e, I'd make it reset at a short rest, since that mechanic exists. It's a useful mechanic for tracking things that won't actually kill you, but will knock you down if you do too much (like bumps and bruises or unarmed combat)
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    Can you disbelieve your opponents' hit points?

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spriteless View Post
    You quoted me saying HPs were a mix of physical/adrenaline/mental reserves, with only the last hit being a major wound.
    First things first, I didn't quote you by saying that. It was Keltest. I prefer to use only one username (yours truly) though I guess someone else might not want to follow the rules!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spriteless View Post
    I agree that HPs are not meat. But they are a story telling tool. They tell the story of how someone gets worn down by fighting. I use it as a guide to narrate fights in game. What story does LTD facilitate telling? A necromantic curse that sucks up life magic? A particularly vicious poison that disrupts healing? The Wailing Death from Neverwinter Nights?

    See, I have to have a story explanation every game mechanic, but with an hour for the idea to gestate and some ideas come through.

    I don't think it's the best implementation for that idea, though. I would represent those stories as something else. Get just a few points of something that reduces healing received. Like the old 3.5 Barbarians' DR, except reversed.
    I left the explanation vague intentionally, because the initial idea was just to realize what an opposite for Temporary Hit Points could/should/would look like. Flavor comes second, should I find the final mechanic worthwhile to implement (judging from the response, I'm starting to doubt if I will). That said, your guess is as good as mine. Whatever makes the most sense to you. If it doesn't, there's no obligation to use it.

    I get that in its current form LTD is not a symmetrical opposite to Temporary Hit Points, primarily because of its duration (in effect, I still argue it matches the ideal: THP are hit points that are reduced first when taking damage vs. LTD is damage that is reduced first when regaining hit points). I think Mark Hall's suggestion of resetting Temporary Damage on Short Rest is sufficient enough. Basically the function is to just make certain encounters more challenging. Also, while initially I felt Temporary Damage shouldn't follow too closely on the footsteps of non-lethal damage, I'm beginning to lean towards letting Temporary Damage knock you out if certain threshold is met. But I repeat, in case it wasn't clear enough: Just like THP, LTD is not supposed to stack with itself! Thus, taking something like 10.000 LTD is very unlikely, because the damage has to come from one source in the same instance.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-02-28 at 02:10 AM.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Essentially the idea was just to answer to a simple question: If Temporary Hit Points exist, why not its opposite as well, and if such a thing existed, what would it look like?
    If asked that question i probably would have replied 'max HP reduction'

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    If asked that question i probably would have replied 'max HP reduction'
    While I understand why you would think so, 'max HP reduction' is not symmetrical opposite to 'temporary HP' because 'max HP reduction' can kill you. If that were to be symmetrical, temporary hit points should be able to revive you. But it can't; if you have 0 hit points and are given temporary hit points afterwards, it doesn't cause you become stable - you are still at risk of dying and will have to continue to make death saving throws. Thus, whatever Temporary Damage turns out to be like, it shouldn't be able to kill you. That's the key point why I disagree on this.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-02-28 at 04:47 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Thus, taking something like 10.000 LTD is very unlikely, because the damage has to come from one source in the same instance.
    And for the sake of symmetry, I don't think there's anything in the rules that maxes out how many temp HP you can have at any one time. If the DM creates an item that grants 1d20 x 100 temp HP, you could end up with 2,000. While that might be broken, it's not technically against the rules (as opposed to, say, something that brings you to level 21, or gives you negative HP, or anything else that the system is incompatible with).

    I'm still not sure I'm into LTD in this way for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is I don't feel as though all elements must maintain symmetry. Where are our negative levels? Or what's the opposite of a saving throw? Why is 20 a crit but a 1 not some kind of anti-crit?

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    And for the sake of symmetry, I don't think there's anything in the rules that maxes out how many temp HP you can have at any one time. If the DM creates an item that grants 1d20 x 100 temp HP, you could end up with 2,000. While that might be broken, it's not technically against the rules (as opposed to, say, something that brings you to level 21, or gives you negative HP, or anything else that the system is incompatible with).

    I'm still not sure I'm into LTD in this way for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is I don't feel as though all elements must maintain symmetry. Where are our negative levels? Or what's the opposite of a saving throw? Why is 20 a crit but a 1 not some kind of anti-crit?
    True, but that's entirely in the hands of each individual DM's, and neither Temporary Hit Point's or LTD's fault. Mechanically the restriction is same for both, and that's the point.

    I agree there doesn't have to be symmetry in everything, but this whole topic is purely hypothetical and sprung from a intentionally simplified question. Ideally, should this end up being implemented, the resulting mechanic is satisfying for everyone.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    While I understand why you would think so, 'max HP reduction' is not symmetrical opposite to 'temporary HP' because 'max HP reduction' can kill you. If that were to be symmetrical, temporary hit points should be able to revive you. But it can't; if you have 0 hit points and are given temporary hit points afterwards, it doesn't cause you become stable - you are still at risk of dying and will have to continue to make death saving throws. Thus, whatever Temporary Damage turns out to be like, it shouldn't be able to kill you. That's the key point why I disagree on this.
    But your LTD absolutely can kill you. If you have it, your healer may be prevented from healing you when you drop to 0. And you can't wake from being unconscious on your own, as that happens when you regain 1 hp, either due to natural 20 or waiting while you're stable, but you can't do that if you have LTD. And, inability to be healed when you're close to death can kill you when an enemy gets lucky crit.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    You have conditions. Perhaps this could be considered temporary damage.

    Things like being restrained or grappled or poisoned create a temporary weakness.

    The awesome thing of temporary hit points is they last until a rest or 8 hours... no concentration or rage

    I'm not sure if temporary hit points make you braver.... But rage certainly does.

    It's an interesting thread. If you're poisoned do you avoid combat?

    A raging barbarian can be paralyzed? But if she/he had temporary HP it still exists.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    What do you want from us? When we try to workshop it into something usable, you say "But I wanted symmetry!" When we point out that stun damage used to be a thing, you say "But it's not enough like THP to be the opposite."

    I mean, did you want a pat on the back for coming up for something symmetric but not very usable? I only pat people for trying when it's clear they want to give the same reciprocity. Without that symmetry I feel I am being taken advantage of.

    But I can brainstorm along your lines if it will help. In what ways is your perfectly symmetrical rule not symmetrical enough? How do you want help?
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    I like the idea... But HP is more than meat. It's confidence and mojo and blood... etc

    Just being at half HP makes players play less recklessly.

    But it's why I like exhaustion and conditions as they fill this niche of temporary damage.

    I do think 5E should've given out something negative for being less than half HP.

    A wizard say with 3 hp remaining from their 7 point max should be frightened of dying.

    Because in game the players themselves play differently when they have lost half HP or more. They're scared of dying
    Last edited by djreynolds; 2020-02-28 at 10:32 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    A wizard say with 3 hp remaining from their 7 point max should be frightened of dying.

    Because in game the players themselves play differently when they have lost half HP or more. They're scared of dying
    Doesn't that solve that problem, though? If the player is concerned with their PC dying at less than half HP, wouldn't that cause the PC to act similarly?

    A lot of "mechanical" things can be solved just by proper roleplaying.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    actual "temporary" damage that mirrors temporary HP would be effect worded such as "you take X damage, Y rounds/minutes/hours later, you are healed for X-Z , where Z is the amoutn of X damage you have already otherwise healed in some other way"

    I don't really see what added scope this would bring to the game tho

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by CorporateSlave View Post
    Although in all fairness, reductions in max HP loss can't be healed by Healing Word either - and if someone is dropped to 0 by such effects, they're generally dead.
    Generally, someone reduced to 0 by effects that reduce HP maximum isn't merely dead. Barring some sort of intervention, they're almost certainly coming back, and they're going to be hungry.

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    The idea is to be the "spiritual" opposite of Temporary Hit Points. Since taking damage reduces your Hit Points by an amount equal to excess points from reducing Temporary Hit Points (if any), Long-Term Damage would do the opposite to regaining hit points.
    I think something like this is supposed to be shown with Hit Dice, although its implementation is pretty weak.

    One thing I've started doing is having players roll HD to recover HP at the end of a Long Rest, regaining half their HD (as normal), and then spending those as needed as well, until they have filled their HP or they ran out of HD.

    This generates a similar scenario to yours, where the more stress someone takes now, the less they can take later. Someone who delves into dungeons 2 days in a row might not wake up with full HP on the third day, and have no more HD to fuel fights without additional rest.

    Coincidentally, this encourages more healing before resting (that is, closing wounds while they're early), which becomes a buff to the unused Medicine and Cure Wounds options, as well as rewarding any feature that improves Hit Dice (like some feats).
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-02-28 at 12:02 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    Doesn't that solve that problem, though? If the player is concerned with their PC dying at less than half HP, wouldn't that cause the PC to act similarly?

    A lot of "mechanical" things can be solved just by proper roleplaying.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    I dont know if anyone has mentioned it but there are a very few monsters that can temporarily lower your max hp.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Reading through all of this, I've kind of come up with another reason I don't like the idea of "Temporary Damage," which has to do with what HP essentially are (from a mechanical standpoint), which is to say just one of the resources a player has attached to their PC, just like Long Rest/Short Rest reset class abilities, Spell Slots, etc.

    Resources in general don't need any drain or blockage beyond simply using them, and needing to restore them via whatever mechanism the RAW has provided for such. I don't feel like we need a new way to prevent reacquisition of HP any more than we need a way to prevent restoration of Spell Slots or Superiority Dice upon rest. While concussion house rules could accomplish that same thing, and in a fairly "realistic" fashion, I have grown to appreciate 5e's relatively simple mechanics, even if some are better implemented than others.

    I know the OP didn't just want a "all damage is temporary" argument, but when you think about it, the inverse is also potentially true...all HP are temporary. Temporary HP are just an element of the HP resource that allows a PC to get beyond their level maximum of the HP resource for a short duration. The ability of Temporary HP to do this has been factored in to game balance. Temporary Damage would probably require significant rebalancing of the rules or else risk distorting the strength of various spells and class abilities in unintended ways.

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by CorporateSlave View Post
    While concussion house rules could accomplish that same thing, and in a fairly "realistic" fashion, I have grown to appreciate 5e's relatively simple mechanics, even if some are better implemented than others.
    I've found that 5e makes so much more sense the more you divorce the mechanics from the "reality" of the fiction. Hit points simply don't exist. They're a tool to make the game work as a game at the table. There's really nothing corresponding to them from the perspective of the characters themselves. When a feature provides, say, temp HP, it's not like the character actually gets something.* It just means for whatever reason that character has a better chance of surviving the next few successful attacks. Maybe that chance was already pretty high and the temp HP don't produce any noticeable benefit in the moment. Maybe the character was worn out and beat up, and the temp HP manifests as a second wind or solidifying of resolve. What it manifests as doesn't matter mechanically -- that's up to us to imagine.

    * Yes, certain features may package the temp HP as a protective field or something, but not all do.

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Are you thinking of permenant HP reduction, like some powerful Undead (like Vampires) are capable of? Because otherwise it seems far too complicated to keep track of multiple health values. Temp HP is easy and doesn't stack, so at most you have a two digit number to keep track of, meanwhile you don't have to keep track of your health. This sounds like suddenly you'd have to keep track of regular health damage and temp damage and possibly temp hp and everything else on your character sheet, and figure out how everything interacts all over again. (AoA? Arcane Ward? Resistances? HAM?)
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Hmm. Just realized there is no instances of anti THP effects. Like a spell/ablity that solely targets them.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Hmm. Just realized there is no instances of anti THP effects. Like a spell/ablity that solely targets them.
    Life drain effects technically do. RAW, they both steal from your HP and still deal it's damage to your THP.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Hmm. Just realized there is no instances of anti THP effects. Like a spell/ablity that solely targets them.
    Not sure why there would need to be. Regular damage usually gets rid of them just fine. Any ability that dealt, I don't know, 100 points of damage to only temporary HP would be incredibly niche.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Not sure why there would need to be. Regular damage usually gets rid of them just fine. Any ability that dealt, I don't know, 100 points of damage to only temporary HP would be incredibly niche.
    It was just an observation that temporary hit points aren't treated as different from normal HP as far as how they are represented mechanically so negative THP are only separated for the non stacking rule and not bringing someone up from being unconscious rather as being a specific type of HP.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    It was just an observation that temporary hit points aren't treated as different from normal HP as far as how they are represented mechanically so negative THP are only separated for the non stacking rule and not bringing someone up from being unconscious rather as being a specific type of HP.
    I assume that's why they call them temporary hit points, as opposed to shield points or barrier points or something else.
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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post
    Are you thinking of permenant HP reduction, like some powerful Undead (like Vampires) are capable of? Because otherwise it seems far too complicated to keep track of multiple health values. Temp HP is easy and doesn't stack, so at most you have a two digit number to keep track of, meanwhile you don't have to keep track of your health. This sounds like suddenly you'd have to keep track of regular health damage and temp damage and possibly temp hp and everything else on your character sheet, and figure out how everything interacts all over again. (AoA? Arcane Ward? Resistances? HAM?)
    If I was thinking of Permanent anything, I wouldn't have called it Temporary

    The following is not directed at you, but instead in general:
    I'm aware this would add more complexity. But if I were to add a houserule such as this, there's no reason that I'd have to use it non-stop. If anything, I would probably make it an encounter hazard that might only occur if the circumstances are right.
    And yes, most likely related to the presence of undeath.

    Being the "equal" opposite of THP doesn't have to mean it's a thing players could use at their whim on a regular basis. The only thing I find necessary, even hypothetically speaking, to be by any means "equal" is the core mechanic that I have explained time and time again, but everyone simply seem to ignore it, and instead cry about the added complexity.

    Multiclassing and Feats are optional rules and both add complexity to the game, for crying out loud. Why temporary damage should be treated any differently than any other optional rule?
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-03-02 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: If Temporary Hit Points exist, then why not Temporary Damage?

    I'd say its probably because it doesnt add much beyond busywork and an extra layer of death to worry about.

    There are a very long list of ways to cripple players. I wager its enough. These usually take thr form of an injury in other games, which seldom target your hp and just make it harder to fight instead.

    Thinking about it, temporary damage would make the most sense to be counteracted by temporary hp. But they dont work together that way. Or atleast I imagine it wouldn't

    Oh to your last general point:
    Feats and mutliclasses dont try to kill you. They make 'your character' more complex .what has been suggested so far is just a healing penalty by the sound of things.

    It can be complex. Perhaps it's even a good idea. The jury is out on whether the major of people who play 5e want it.

    If my dm told me hes introducing temporary damage that needs to be healed away all I would ask is "Why?"
    Last edited by Sindal; 2020-03-03 at 04:59 AM.

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