Opening cinematic of Baldur's Gate 3

[Narkis]

Yea, no. Pulled out my old AD&D books (not 2nd ed, just AD&D) just to be sure. No mention of Red Dragons in association with the Gith. Who don't generally live on Prime anyway, and so their contact with dragons of ANY color would be dubious at best. Reds in particular are too short-sighted and self-centered to agree to any such thing.

This sounds more apocryphal than factual. I don't recall hearing about it back in the 80's at least.

From the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual:

On the Prime Material plane, githyanki have a pact with a group of red dragons. These proud creatures will act as mounts and companions to the githyanki. When encountered on the Prime Material plane and outside their lair, a githyanki group will typically consist of the following:

One captain – 8th-level fighter
One warlock – 4th to 7th-level mage
Five lower githyankis – fighters of 1st-3rd level

Such a group will have two red dragons as steeds, transporting between four and six githyanki per dragon. The dragons will fight for the safety and well-being of the githyanki but will not directly risk their lives, fleeing when the battle is turned against them. Just what the githyanki offer the red dragons in return for these services is unknown.

Planescape went into more detail about how Gith went to Tiamat, made a pact that lasts to this day, and never returned, making Vlaakith the Queen. I can't be bothered to look for the specific passage though. It'll either be in the Planes of Law section about Baator, or more probably in the Guide to the Astral Plane. I, for one, appreciated that nod to continuity. It may not have been part of the lore in the 80s, but it was certainly there in the 90s.

Which is one of my problems with Spelljammer in the first place. No. Just... no. And STILL not relevant to Baldur's Gate. What's next, hopping over to Dragonlance to stock up on 'worthless' gold then back to FR to cash in? This is what happens when you cross settings. Everything breaks down. Spelljammer just facilitates this. It's a munchkin's wet dream, and a GM's nightmare.

That... is not how it works at all. You CANNOT just "hop over to Dragonlance". The journey is FAR more dangerous than, say, sailing to Calimshan to import spices to Waterdeep, and almost certainly less profitable. And, of course, no DM worth his salt would ever let his players get their hands on a Spelljammer if he wasn't prepared for the consequences. It's not like they can expect to buy one off the market somewhere.

[Eldan]

Yea, no. Pulled out my old AD&D books (not 2nd ed, just AD&D) just to be sure. No mention of Red Dragons in association with the Gith. Who don't generally live on Prime anyway, and so their contact with dragons of ANY color would be dubious at best. Reds in particular are too short-sighted and self-centered to agree to any such thing.

Planescape Lore, Guide to the Astral Plane. The Githyanki have a pact with Tiamat, very likely involving the soul of Gith herself. Gith, the hero of the Gith-Illithid wars (before they became Githyanki and Githzerai) and the first Githyanki queen went to Avernus to find allies against the Illithids, and only the queen came back, Gith was never seen again. And since then, red dragons are allied to the Githzerai.

[Yora]

It's even right in their first appearance in the Fiend Folio for 1st Edition.

"Githyanki have a pact with a group of red dragons which, in return for shelter, food and treasure, assist the githyanki when on the Prime Material Plane by acting as steeds." Gith and Tiamat came later, but the basic connection is there right from the start.

Google search result implies it comes from the 1e Fiend Folio about page 43/45 - if someone wants to have a check who has a hard copy (or digital one) to confirm, it's before my time.

Confirmed. (page 45)

[Cikomyr2]

It's even right in their first appearance in the Fiend Folio for 1st Edition.

"Githyanki have a pact with a group of red dragons which, in return for shelter, food and treasure, assist the githyanki when on the Prime Material Plane by acting as steeds." Gith and Tiamat came later, but the basic connection is there right from the start.


Confirmed. (page 45)

Someone didn't bothered to do their research...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Someone didn't bothered to do their research...

Someone doesn't particularly *care* about relatively minor details like that either.

This should never have been a Baldur's Gate title, it should have been its own D&D franchise. Some people might like it, but considering how completely I despise Spelljammer, I'm not one of them. I feel it is a mistake to try and hang the Baldur's Gate label on it since it is so tangential to the old game.

Should've been "D&D: Spelljammer" instead of "Baldur's Gate 3". Sadly, they had to go foul up one of the few decent D&D game franchises to make a quick buck. Unsurprising, but it is sad to see.

There's a lot to explore with the Gith/Illithid war. Maybe we'll see a resurgence of said conflict. It is certainly one of the most legendary of epic conflicts in D&D lore, so you've got plenty of room to go from Level 1 to Level Arbitrary, at least. Even in epic levels, you'll still have viable threats. And it looks like they've got a good team of graphics artists and designers, at least for the cutscenes, so it should be pretty and flashy. And if that's your thing... you do you.

Anyway. Thanks for sharing the video. I'm sure lots of people are excited about it, and I wish them well. But I'm just gonna go ahead and leave you to it. Haven't been this disappointed since F76, but I also realize I'm probably in the minority on that perspective. Peace out.

[Cikomyr2]

Someone doesn't particularly *care* about relatively minor details like that either.

It was one of the starting point of your entire rant. For all I know, you just make up everything else in your rant.

[Beleriphon]

I was joking, but honestly, in this world, I think if they'll want them to make an apperance, they can make it happen and just blame it on magic or something.

If it helps Minsc and Boo were turned into stone before the Spell Plague, and then back at some power after the Sundering. So they're both alive in the most recent years for the Realms.

As for being Baldru's Gate 3, the basic setup from what I've seen is that it is set in Baldur's Gate, and is about the Illithids invading. Spelljammers have been attached to FR since the Spelljammer setting was created. Evermeet is even supposed to have a spelljammer port.

[Millstone85]

Should've been "D&D: Spelljammer" instead of "Baldur's Gate 3".

That name would probably be equally ill-fitting.

In practice, we saw a city under attack by a flying ship. The magocracy of Halruaa, in South Faerûn, could have launched a similar offensive. Yes, the design is from Spelljammer, and there is an extraterrestrial feel to all things illithids, but it is too soon to tell if any actual spelljamming will occur.

I expect that most of the adventure will take place on Toril, in Faerûn, on the Sword Coast, perhaps with an extended visit to the githyanki capital of Tu'narath on the Astral Plane, none of which is Spelljammer.

[Psyren]

* I'm not sure why they felt the need to inject Spelljammer into Forgotten Realms, but I'm not on board with the idea at all

Technically FR (and all the other settings) are part of Spelljammer, since setting-hopping is kinda its thing.

This should never have been a Baldur's Gate title, it should have been its own D&D franchise. Some people might like it, but considering how completely I despise Spelljammer, I'm not one of them. I feel it is a mistake to try and hang the Baldur's Gate label on it since it is so tangential to the old game.
...
Should've been "D&D: Spelljammer" instead of "Baldur's Gate 3". Sadly, they had to go foul up one of the few decent D&D game franchises to make a quick buck. Unsurprising, but it is sad to see.

I get the annoyance at calling this "Baldur's Gate" when the scope appears to be so much broader than one city, but I'm sure the plot will make it central/relevant in some way. And frankly, making the plot about Bhaalspawn when the Time of Troubles is now so utterly stale wouldn't have been a great idea either. Besides which, the teleporting squid-ship and angry githyanki aside, we don't have any reason to believe there will be actual spelljamming here.

And unfortunately, yes, branding and marketing matters a great deal; for good or ill, we live in a (capitalist) society.

Anyway. Thanks for sharing the video. I'm sure lots of people are excited about it, and I wish them well. But I'm just gonna go ahead and leave you to it. Haven't been this disappointed since F76, but I also realize I'm probably in the minority on that perspective. Peace out.

Bye I guess.

Me, I'm stoked - Larian has earned my faith. I was doubtful that 5e could even be a video game, but if anyone can prove me wrong it's them!

[The Glyphstone]

I get the annoyance at calling this "Baldur's Gate" when the scope appears to be so much broader than one city, but I'm sure the plot will make it central/relevant in some way. And frankly, making the plot about Bhaalspawn when the Time of Troubles is now so utterly stale wouldn't have been a great idea either. Besides which, the teleporting squid-ship and angry githyanki aside, we don't have any reason to believe there will be actual spelljamming here.

And unfortunately, yes, branding and marketing matters a great deal; for good or ill, we live in a (capitalist) society.

There have been 4 games in the Baldur's Gate series so far, after all, (5 if you count Tales of the Sword Coast), and only 1 of them actually involved the city of Baldur's Gate in any way. So the idea that not being centered in or around said city makes it ineligible to be called Baldur's Gate makes little sense to me.

On the other hand, It feels to me like they've done a decent job at carrying through the thematic essence of the original trilogy's character arc - specifically, the internal conflict of [PROTAGONIST] having unwanted power with a cost forced upon them. It's a illithid tadpole now instead of divine ancestry, but you're still faced with the question of whether to draw on those special abilities at the cost of making yourself weaker/more vulnerable down the line.

[Rynjin]

Me, I'm stoked - Larian has earned my faith. I was doubtful that 5e could even be a video game, but if anyone can prove me wrong it's them!

Really? I've always thought 5e would make a good video game.

All of the design choices I perceive as weaknesses in the game lend it very well to being a videogame. Relatively limited ruleset translates well to a game which will have to necessarily be less complex in the weird corner case rules. Relatively small amount of released content and overall player choice means Larian could potentially include everything ever released for 5e from the start, unlike say Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which has an impressive amount of player content but barely scratches the surface of released stuff.

5e was almost tailor made to be turned into a CRPG.

[Morty]

I don't see how 5E is any worse for a video game than the editions that already got those, yeah. And since BG3 will be turn-based, it'll avoid the very messy ways those mechanics interacted with real-time in the old IE games, NWN or (reportedly, I haven't played it and don't plan to) Kingmaker. The UI we saw even included a "bonus action" box - that's one thing 5E uses a lot that would be a pain to render in real-time.

My trust in Larian isn't terribly high, but using D&D rules will at least avoid some of the things that bugged me about DOS2, so who knows.

[JadedDM]

This should never have been a Baldur's Gate title, it should have been its own D&D franchise. Some people might like it, but considering how completely I despise Spelljammer, I'm not one of them. I feel it is a mistake to try and hang the Baldur's Gate label on it since it is so tangential to the old game.

Should've been "D&D: Spelljammer" instead of "Baldur's Gate 3". Sadly, they had to go foul up one of the few decent D&D game franchises to make a quick buck. Unsurprising, but it is sad to see.

You're making it sound like this is a straight up Spelljammer game, with planet-hopping and sailing through the phlogiston and encountering giff and neogi, and all that. Which, admittedly, would be awesome. But I'm pretty sure this game mostly takes place in the titular city and the surrounding Sword Coast area, and no actual Spelljamming occurs outside that single nautiloid in the opening cutscene.

If it helps Minsc and Boo were turned into stone before the Spell Plague, and then back at some power after the Sundering. So they're both alive in the most recent years for the Realms.

Wait, no kidding? I was just joking around, I didn't realize they'd actually still be around. That could be pretty cool if they made an appearance then.

There have been 4 games in the Baldur's Gate series so far, after all, (5 if you count Tales of the Sword Coast), and only 1 of them actually involved the city of Baldur's Gate in any way. So the idea that not being centered in or around said city makes it ineligible to be called Baldur's Gate makes little sense to me.

And of that one game, you don't even arrive to the titular city until pretty late in the game!

[Narkis]

Wait, no kidding? I was just joking around, I didn't realize they'd actually still be around. That could be pretty cool if they made an appearance then.

Yes. There's a comic series where a wild mage accidentally dispels the petrification and Minsc goes to adventures with a new party.

[Morty]

Wait, no kidding? I was just joking around, I didn't realize they'd actually still be around. That could be pretty cool if they made an appearance then.

I would honestly really rather they didn't. It would feel like a really cheap nostalgia cash-in. That they're still alive by now is already contrived.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As someone who's played through Neverwinter Nights 2 multiple times in college and fought lots of githyanki as a result, it will be interesting to see if in this new Baldur's Gate circumstance will make them our allies instead. Especially if we have githyanki characters who AREN'T one-dimensional jerkfaces going "Blah blah blah, stolen silver swords, blah blah blah, lich queen." Actual PERSONALITY like we've seen from githzerai characters.

[warty goblin]

I'm interested, if only because that trailer is some first rate fantasy nonsense, and I love me some fantasy nonsense. Also Larian games are always at least weird, and often good. Weirdness is far too uncommon in our tedious day and age. Will this be as weird as Dragon Commander, a game were you could play a third person dragon action game inside an RTS inside a TBS inside a geopolitical dating sim where you could marry a skeleton? Probably not, but that's a very high bar.

Damnit, now I need to go install Dragon Commander.

[Mando Knight]

As someone who's played through Neverwinter Nights 2 multiple times in college and fought lots of githyanki as a result, it will be interesting to see if in this new Baldur's Gate circumstance will make them our allies instead. Especially if we have githyanki characters who AREN'T one-dimensional jerkfaces going "Blah blah blah, stolen silver swords, blah blah blah, lich queen." Actual PERSONALITY like we've seen from githzerai characters.

From the gameplay, you can play as a Githyanki, including the one in the intro as one of the pre-generated characters.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

From the gameplay, you can play as a Githyanki, including the one in the intro as one of the pre-generated characters.

WAT

I thought you could only play an elf.

[Morty]

I thought you could only play an elf.

That sounds like a pretty unsupported assumption, not to mention it'd be a spectacularly poor decision on Larian's part.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That sounds like a pretty unsupported assumption, not to mention it'd be a spectacularly poor decision on Larian's part.

I just stumbled across this meme and I'm not quite sure what they're getting at by saying the protagonist can only be an elf vampire or something.

Spoiler

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Like...I get that it's clearly making fun of BG3, but I didn't think there was enough information out there about the game to make fun of it like this.

[The Glyphstone]

One of the pre-gen characters is an elven vampire.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

One of the pre-gen characters is an elven vampire.

Wait right at the start?

Can you ONLY play the pregenerated characters?

[The Glyphstone]

Wait right at the start?

Can you ONLY play the pregenerated characters?

No. It's like Divinity: Original Sin 2, where you can either play one of the 'Origin' pre-generated characters, or a custom-created one. Origins get unique dialogue and pre-programmed personal story quests, that a generic character will not.

[warty goblin]

Wait right at the start?

Can you ONLY play the pregenerated characters?

No, they just get playable backstories and some extra dialog stuff. It sounded a lot like the system they used for Original Sin 2.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No. It's like Divinity: Original Sin 2, where you can either play one of the 'Origin' pre-generated characters, or a custom-created one. Origins get unique dialogue and pre-programmed personal story quests, that a generic character will not.

Why bother with a custom character then, if the pregens get tied to the story better?

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler

Show

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I don't care how innaccurate this is, it's freaking HILARIOUS!




FINALLY, after all these years, it's finally sinkign in! Liches for the win!

No. It's like Divinity: Original Sin 2, where you can either play one of the 'Origin' pre-generated characters, or a custom-created one. Origins get unique dialogue and pre-programmed personal story quests, that a generic character will not.

Which is, if you ask me, a rather neat system. Especially if they keep the system whereby you can choose whatever character class you like for you and your NPCs, which was as stroke of genius on D:OS. Them as is happy to be playin' a set character with more plot could if they wanted, AND you didn't get locked out of any companions you wanted mechanically. So you could pick whichever characters you liked most and still have the advantage of a completely custom-made party.

Class, it was. Don't really expect it to be quite like that in BG 3, though, more's the pity.

[Keltest]

Why bother with a custom character then, if the pregens get tied to the story better?

Well, in DoS at least there are certain mechanical advantages to using a custom character. You can pick and choose your favorite "tags" ie your background elements that reflect certain abilities and dialogue options in the game. For example, there is a book that can only be read by somebody with the "scholar" tag, and only a scholar will be able to perform brain surgery (yes, really) for a certain quest competently enough to get the good ending. The custom-character exclusive ability is also probably the best of the character-specific abilities. Perhaps most importantly, it lets it be *your* character, that you built from the ground up. You can play as your character from the actual tabletop game, or how you imagine you yourself would be, or whatever you feel like playing.

[JadedDM]

I've never played the Divinity games before. Should I check them out? How do they compare with Kingmaker or Pillars of Eternity?

[Rynjin]

I've never played the Divinity games before. Should I check them out? How do they compare with Kingmaker or Pillars of Eternity?

Didn't play PoE, but Original Sin 2 is far better than Kingmaker, at least when comparing unmodded versions of the game. It runs smoother, is a little faster, has turn based combat, and directly supports actual multiplayer.

And I actually like Kingmaker, mind you.