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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Mar 2016

    Default More DWK silliness?

    Most DWK debates surround about being a true dragon or not. This thread is not about that! (If you want a debate on that topic, open a separate thread and I will gladly join.)

    This tread is about the DWK feat:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonwrought Kobold feat
    You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103.


    and the Features listed for Dragon Types in the SRD
    Dragon Type

    A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.
    Features

    A dragon has the following features.

    - 12-sided Hit Dice.
    - Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
    - Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
    - Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.


    Traits

    A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

    Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
    Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
    Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
    Proficient with no armor.
    Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
    I marked the important parts.

    I can assume that the intention (RAI) was to refer to Racial Hit Dice, because at that point nobody would have thought that one day someone would be silly enough to release something like the DWK feat..^^

    But RAW doesn't limit any of the listed thing to racial hit die. The silly outcome out that is:
    - class hit dice are now d12..
    - BAB as fighter..
    - good saves for Fortitude, Reflex and Will..
    - 6+INT mod skills for all class lvl (x4 for lvl 1)..

    The silliness is caused by the fact that the features apply to all creatures of dragon type and don't have an exception like the traits do. And while the DWK doesn't explicitly say that you gain the features, it would need to deny it in the first place, since it is a general rule for "dragons"..

    Lets all prepare for the flood of Kobold gish builds that will be caused by this...^^
    I don't now if should be happy or cry as someone who like to make theoretical builds. This breaks the balance on so many scales..
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-02-28 at 05:24 AM.
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Jan 2019

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    While I am AFB and thus cannot provide a specific quote, this does not work for the same reason your non-dragonwrought kobold Sorcerer does not have d8 hit dice & good reflex saves as per the 'humanoid' racial traits.

    Nice try though 😏
    Last edited by YellowJohn; 2020-02-28 at 05:46 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Mar 2016

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Quote Originally Posted by YellowJohn View Post
    While I am AFB and thus cannot provide a specific quote, this does not work for the same reason your non-dragonwrought kobold Sorcerer does not have d8 hit dice & good reflex saves as per the 'humanoid' racial traits.

    Nice try though 😏
    A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
    Humanoid features notes exceptions. Dragon features don't.
    try again^^
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual
    MONSTERS AND CLASS LEVELS
    If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters described on pages 59–60 of the Player’s Handbook. The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. For example, an ogre normally has 4 HD. If it picks up one level of barbarian, it becomes a creature of 5 Hit Dice: 4d8 HD for its ogre levels, plus 1d12 HD for its barbarian level. A creature's “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

    - p.290
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual
    Features: A giant has the following features. [Note the lack of 'unless otherwise noted']
    —8-sided Hit Dice.
    —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).

    - p.310
    By your logic, the example Ogre Barbarian 1 should have 5d8 hit dice rather than the 4d8+1d12 stated (and would not gain a point of BAB on taking its Barbarian level).
    However, this is clearly not how it works in the example given in the Monster Manual. Instead, it shows the monster's racial hit dice working as a “monster class”. The racial 'Features' act as the class features of said Monster Class, but as with other classes its features would not interact with the features of any other classes it may have.

    What you CAN do is make a pretty solid argument that your first hit dice is Dragon, which might be worth taking over Barbarian for the better saves and increased Skill Points but I'm not sure if it's worth a caster level.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

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    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Unless Dragonwroguth Kobold says explictly otherwise, you won't gain any of the benefits of dragon racial HD, because you don't have any dragon racial HD. If you did, it would not be a feat, since a feast that gives you a free level (even a generally meh one like a racail HD one - though dragon is better than most) would be stupid-broken.

    You might, MAYBE argue you could multiclass as dragon racial HD, but I don't think even that is actually possible by RAW.

    Stuff that explictly changes retroactively your HD/BAB/skills etc is some Undead templates (and they often come with an Augmented subtype) and maybe one or two prestidge classes like dragon disciple and they all very explictly say so.

    Monks, for example, don't suddenly gain Outsider traits/HD/BAB/Saves/Skill points retroactively at 20th level when they become Outsiders. (Insert joke about how even if you did, it would not make core 3.5 monks suck any less as appropriate.)
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2020-02-28 at 10:20 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Mar 2016

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Quote Originally Posted by YellowJohn View Post
    By your logic, the example Ogre Barbarian 1 should have 5d8 hit dice rather than the 4d8+1d12 stated (and would not gain a point of BAB on taking its Barbarian level).
    However, this is clearly not how it works in the example given in the Monster Manual. Instead, it shows the monster's racial hit dice working as a “monster class”. The racial 'Features' act as the class features of said Monster Class, but as with other classes its features would not interact with the features of any other classes it may have.

    What you CAN do is make a pretty solid argument that your first hit dice is Dragon, which might be worth taking over Barbarian for the better saves and increased Skill Points but I'm not sure if it's worth a caster level.
    Ok, that's a full counter^^ I missed the part in the MM, since I was reading in the SDR..
    And the inconsistency in the type description is misleading without the MM reference.

    But your 2nd argument is interesting. I hope I got it right. Are you suggesting to take a single dragon racial lvl at lvl 1? Maybe not so good for a gish, but maybe for a mundane damage dealer that tend to be squishy the first level. And the (6+int)x4 skillpoints at lvl1 can be appealing too. Not game breaking, but interesting enough to keep in mind.
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhamBamSam's Avatar

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    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Yeah. That's pretty clearly describing RHD. That is relevant if you get RHD from somewhere, like Multiheaded, though. Multiheaded Dragonwrought Kobold is not the worst if you're looking for a weird race or can buy off LA, and want to do Rapidstrike stuff.

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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Are you suggesting to take a single dragon racial lvl at lvl 1? Maybe not so good for a gish, but maybe for a mundane damage dealer that tend to be squishy the first level.
    That is my suggestion, yes.

    The relevant passage is on page 290 of the Monster Manual, just after the the quote in my previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual
    Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD
    replace their monster levels with their character levels. For
    example, a goblin sorcerer loses its humanoid attack bonus, saving
    throw bonuses, skills, and feats, and gains the attack bonus, save
    bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level sorcerer

    [Emphasis in original text]
    Since the bold section of the text claims the passage refers specifically to Humanoids, RAW says that dragons like you don't get to swap your single racial HD for a class level. I, as a DM, would not play it like that and I suspect most DM's would agree.

    >>

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    And the (6+int)x4 skillpoints at lvl1 can be appealing too. Not game breaking, but interesting enough to keep in mind.
    I am a little wary about the value of the skill points, as there is nothing defining your Class Skills meaning that all skills would be cross-class for you.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Mar 2016

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    Quote Originally Posted by YellowJohn View Post

    I am a little wary about the value of the skill points, as there is nothing defining your Class Skills meaning that all skills would be cross-class for you.

    you get class skills for your RHD:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Monsters As Races
    Skills

    All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Kobold
    Kobold Skills
    Craft (trapmaking) +2, Hide +6, Listen +2, Move Silently +2, Profession (miner) +2, Search +2, Spot +2
    So a Kobold Dragons racial HD class skills are:
    Concentration, Craft (trapmaking), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Profession (miner), Search, Sense Motive, Spot & Use Magic device.

    A pretty long list with most of the important skills.
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    [QUOTE=Gruftzwerg;24379565]you get class skills for your RHD:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Monsters As Races
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Skills

    All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)
    Now hold your horses there. This isn't posted in the 'Monsters as Races' section. It's not even
    posted in the section where Dragon Racial Hit Dice are described. This quote is found in the 'True Dragons' entry, which a Dragonwrought Kobold, IMO, is not - though I will concede I am not familiar with the arguments to the contrary even though that discussion has apparently been done to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Kobold Skills
    Craft (trapmaking) +2, Hide +6, Listen +2, Move Silently +2, Profession (miner) +2, Search +2, Spot +2
    Ok, fair - as a DM I'd let you have these as class skills. But I can understand why a ref wouldn't, because you've lost your 'kobold level' for a level of dragon. Either way, it's hardly an inspiring list.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Mar 2016

    Default Re: More DWK silliness?

    [QUOTE=YellowJohn;24380061]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    ...
    Now hold your horses there. This isn't posted in the 'Monsters as Races' section. It's not even
    posted in the section where Dragon Racial Hit Dice are described. This quote is found in the 'True Dragons' entry, which a Dragonwrought Kobold, IMO, is not - though I will concede I am not familiar with the arguments to the contrary even though that discussion has apparently been done to death.



    Ok, fair - as a DM I'd let you have these as class skills. But I can understand why a ref wouldn't, because you've lost your 'kobold level' for a level of dragon. Either way, it's hardly an inspiring list.
    Well, I'm on the DWK are true dragons by RAW side. So, for me at least that ain't a problem^^
    (as always: If someone want's to discuss "DWK true or not", pls make a separate thread for it)
    El Mariachi dual double-hand-crossbow action
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

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