(TWF/Monk) *When* you use the Attack Action...

[Keltest]

Yep he said that and earlier he said it didn't matter, ask your DM, and the lack of a target within range doesn't prevent a player from taking an action with an attack component.

What on earth are you talking about?

[stoutstien]

What on earth are you talking about?

All of the sage advice over the years about flurry. Mostly RaW is the weakest ruling here.

[PhantomSoul]

All of the sage advice over the years about flurry. Mostly RaW is the weakest ruling here.

The Sage Advice you linked gave a different question... have they said something else about Flurry elsewhere?

[ad_hoc]

I agree with Phantomsoul - absent specific timing such as the word "immediately," "when" most likely just refers to "a Turn during which the Action you have selected is the Attack Action."

I feel like when the RAI wanted it to be "immediately after," the RAW says "immediately after."

Just to clarify - There is no 'selecting' an action. There is only doing the action.

The problem arises when you gain extra attack. Immediately after could mean before or after each attack which in turn can be broken up with movement. The timing being based on the action declaration never made sense to me.

The Attack action comprises of those 2 attacks.

Immediately after is immediately after you are finished with the attack action. You have not taken the action until you have taken it.

Breaking up the Attack action with movement is a special exemption. It should not be confused with a general rule of 'splitting' up actions into distinct parts which can be interrupted.

This is also why Shield Master's shove comes after the Attack action. The action needs to be taken for the Bonus Action to be available to be used.

There is no such thing as 'selecting' an action. You have either done the action or you haven't.

[Misterwhisper]

Just to clarify - There is no 'selecting' an action. There is only doing the action.



The Attack action comprises of those 2 attacks.

Immediately after is immediately after you are finished with the attack action. You have not taken the action until you have taken it.

Breaking up the Attack action with movement is a special exemption. It should not be confused with a general rule of 'splitting' up actions into distinct parts which can be interrupted.

This is also why Shield Master's shove comes after the Attack action. The action needs to be taken for the Bonus Action to be available to be used.

There is no such thing as 'selecting' an action. You have either done the action or you haven't.

Actually he went back and changed his mind on that little over a year ago, too many people complained so you can now shield shove before attacking because "You choose when to take a bonus action"

However they did not bother to errata the wording of flurry when they changed it back.

[stoutstien]

The Sage Advice you linked gave a different question... have they said something else about Flurry elsewhere?

It was mike who said they can move, before he's responses where not official. The movement question was actually about sanctuary/flurry if the monk flurry and then fails to pass the save. I'd have to wait till I'm home to provide the exact links.

[Keravath]

Taking an action is performing an action. I think youre reading an interpretation here that isn't supported by the language. There is no separation between taking the action and carrying it out.

I think the point of contention is ... "Is there a difference between TAKING an action and COMPLETING an action"? If I have extra attack and I make just one of the attacks then I can certainly say that I have TAKEN the attack action. It may not be completed but I have taken it.

Bonus actions can be gained by TAKING the attack action. Two weapon fighting for example. Flurry of blows though has the unusual wording of "immediately after taking the attack action". Depending on whether you consider TAKING to be the same as COMPLETING this could mean that the additional attacks could come after either the first attack, after the last attack or possibly, as the players choice, immediately after any of the attacks. Ultimately it is a DM call.

To the OP, when something grants a bonus action, the rules on bonus actions state that they can be taken at any time during the turn which would include during or after the attack action or at any time during a move.

[BarneyBent]

Just to complicate this further - is there anything that says you can't move between spending the ki point and making your first flurry attack?

For example, say my monk has a single enemy in front of him, with others further away, and takes the attack action. He immediately chooses to spend a ki point to Flurry. At that point, after the ki is spent but before the bonus action starts, the enemy uses a reaction or legendary action to disengage and move 15 ft away. Can my monk use his movement to follow, and then resolve the flurry? Or is he stuck punching air?

I reckon there's a decent case to be made that yes, you can. That "immediately" refers to the spending of the ki point, so it forces you to make the decision rather than delay, but having made it, you can move before making the next attack.

Notice that the scenario in the linked Sage Advice explicitly says the monk moves before spending the ki, so this interpretation doesn't contradict that. And if you assume the intent is to force the monk to make rapid decisions, not to arbitrarily have them stuck in place between their action and their bonus action (despite being able to move within them) then this interpretation seems much less of a stretch.

[MaxWilson]

I think the point of contention is ... "Is there a difference between TAKING an action and COMPLETING an action"? If I have extra attack and I make just one of the attacks then I can certainly say that I have TAKEN the attack action. It may not be completed but I have taken it.

Bonus actions can be gained by TAKING the attack action. Two weapon fighting for example. Flurry of blows though has the unusual wording of "immediately after taking the attack action". Depending on whether you consider TAKING to be the same as COMPLETING this could mean that the additional attacks could come after either the first attack, after the last attack or possibly, as the players choice, immediately after any of the attacks. Ultimately it is a DM call.

To the OP, when something grants a bonus action, the rules on bonus actions state that they can be taken at any time during the turn which would include during or after the attack action or at any time during a move.

Sometimes the difference is even relevant and important. For example, if I'm a 6th level Paladin concentrating on Wrathful Smite already when I start my turn, I can take the Attack action to make two attacks. If I hit on the first attack, the enemy has to save vs. Wrathful Smite, and if they do I may want to then spend my bonus action on re-casting Wrathful Smite before finishing my attacks, to force the enemy to save again.

Nothing in 5E says I can't use my bonus action in the middle of my attack sequence, and it's a natural interpretation.

[ZiddyT]

Flurry just requires that you use the attack action, not that it has to be with a monk weapon.

Amazes me how many people think they know the game better than the people who wrote it.

[Misterwhisper]

Amazes me how many people think they know the game better than the people who wrote it.

As stupid as it is, he is right. Only the MA bonus attack requires monk weapons.

As dumb as it is an elf can swing a long sword twice at level 5 and then flurry for two unarmed strikes but they can’t just bonus action one unarmed attack.

[ZiddyT]

So a drunken master can make 5 flurry attacks but they have to be against different targets AND arms reach of whoever you hit with your second normal attack because you can’t move.


No, that is just stupid.

You can move between the flurry attacks. You just can't move before activating the flurry (and I presume attacking at least once).

[Keravath]

Actually he went back and changed his mind on that little over a year ago, too many people complained so you can now shield shove before attacking because "You choose when to take a bonus action"

However they did not bother to errata the wording of flurry when they changed it back.

No. The text in the latest version of the sage advice compendium is the following.

"Shield Master[NEW] The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action? No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a pre-condition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play"

You must actually make an attack using the attack action to be considered to have "taken" the attack action and thus be eligible for either Shield bash or flurry of blows.

However, JC did tweet that in his game he would allow the shield bash after the first attack of the attack action if a character had the extra attack feature. Neither the sage advice compendium nor the PHB text say that the action must be COMPLETED before earning the bonus action, only that the attack action must be taken. If you have made at least one attack then you have taken the attack action even if it is not completed. This is sufficient to trigger any bonus actions that require "taking" the attack action.

[ZiddyT]

No. The text in the latest version of the sage advice compendium is the following.

"Shield Master[NEW] The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action? No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a pre-condition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play"

You must actually make an attack using the attack action to be considered to have "taken" the attack action and thus be eligible for either Shield bash or flurry of blows.

However, JC did tweet that in his game he would allow the shield bash after the first attack of the attack action if a character had the extra attack feature. Neither the sage advice compendium nor the PHB text say that the action must be COMPLETED before earning the bonus action, only that the attack action must be taken. If you have made at least one attack then you have taken the attack action even if it is not completed. This is sufficient to trigger any bonus actions that require "taking" the attack action.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/04...urry-of-blows/
Saying he would allow it in his game is not saying that's the RAW. All attacks must be completed for an attack action trigger to occur unless the DM rules otherwise (which is reasonable).

[Segev]

The way I've been running Dread Ambusher for my Ranger is that Dread Ambusher says it triggers as your second attack on the first round of combat. Which means that my Ranger is rolling an attack, then rolling the Dread Ambusher attack, then rolling his extra attack. And sometimes also using a bonus action for an off-hand attack. We have to be very consistent on the Dread Ambusher attack being second or the Ranger's player gets confused about what attacks get which dice.

[CapnWildefyr]

OK, just summarizing the Sage Advice for the OP:
1. Monk attacks.
2. Monk Starts flurry of blows. If desired, monk can move between FOB attacks, or after, but not immediately before.

If the monk has extra attack, then the monk can take FOB after either attack, and can move between the main attacks and between the FOB attacks, as long as FOB starts right after one of the two attacks. (Just to overkill this, only 1 FOB allowed per round.)

Sound about right?
BTW thanks everyone for the SA lookups, it helped!

EDIT: no specific restriction on who FOB targets - just when it must begin.

[Keravath]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/04...urry-of-blows/
Saying he would allow it in his game is not saying that's the RAW. All attacks must be completed for an attack action trigger to occur unless the DM rules otherwise (which is reasonable).

RAW says the following:

"FLURRY OF BLOWS
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend I ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action."

"TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."

"SHIELD MASTER
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield."


"BONUS ACTIONS
You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. ...
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified."

"MOVING BETWEEN ATTACKS
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks."

"ATTACK
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.

Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action."


This is all RAW has to say on the matter. Depending on how a DM prefers to define the meaning of "TAKING", both interpretation or neither are RAW since this is all that RAW has to say on the matter.

The ATTACK action requires only ONE attack to be made. Using the attack action states specifically that it gives you one attack and that other features like extra attack may give you additional attacks that can be used as part of the attack action.

The rules allow movement between attacks of the attack action. If you have a bonus action available, the rules specifically state that it can be taken at ANY time during your turn. This means that a rogue could dash or disengage between attacks of the attack action (if they have the extra attack feature). A paladin could cast a bonus action smite spell. A cleric could cast healing word between the attacks.

Depending on how the DM chooses to define "Taking" the attack action, bonus actions like shoving using the Shield Master feat, attacking with an off-hand weapon or flurry of blows ALL become available after the first attack of the attack action since Taking the attack action gives you one attack unless you have a feature like extra attack that allows multiple attacks as part of the attack action. NONE of the RAW text says "When you have completed the attack action." ... the text uses "when you take the attack action", "if you take the attack action" and "after taking the attack action". None of which state or imply, after you FINISH or COMPLETE the attack action. As a result, the entire argument boils down to how the DM chooses to define "Taking" in the context of game mechanics. To me, RAW pretty clearly indicates that the attack action has been taken after completing at least one attack. Obviously, other folks think that the RAW interpretation of "Taking" means "have finished their attack action". Neither interpretation is wrong and potentially both could be considered RAW depending on which definition of "Taking" is accepted. Personally, I go for "taking" to mean that the attack action has been taken but not necessarily completed while others go for "taking" to mean the attack action has been completed.

[CorporateSlave]

Just to clarify - There is no 'selecting' an action. There is only doing the action.

There is no such thing as 'selecting' an action. You have either done the action or you haven't.

Geez it gets lawyery around here!

Of course there is such a thing as 'selecting' an Action. What there is not is such a thing as 'Selecting' an Action. (With capitalization generally used by myself in lawyery fashion to denote common usage vs. an actual game term from the RAW)

As in, the player selects the Action their PC will take.

The PC then takes the Action. (which is the part that is rules relevant as you state)

Admittedly I wasn't perfectly clear about that in my post, but what I meant by "you" is the player, not the PC...

So: ..."when" most likely just refers to "a Turn during which the Action you have selected is the Attack Action." The player (Player?) has to decide and choose what Action their PC will do/take/perform/complete on any given Turn after all.