Wizards should be better than fighters.

[Bartmanhomer]

Don't forget to add salt.

Low sodium salt for me.

[lylsyly]

And I don't like the word mundane much for fantastic characters, mainly because it tends to mean "dull" and "uninteresting" or "ordinary." Which is pretty much the opposite of fantastic. When a guy can kill large predatory animals in a few seconds with a normal weapon or go into a group of them with only a pointy stick and come out slightly injured, I don't think they count as "mundane." Maybe not spell casters, but not mundane since even Captain America's returning shield can be replicated at Level 5, so it stands to reason Level 20 definitely left mundane behind a while ago...

---

Of course. Even Aragon was stated out at what? Level 6? The real question is How to make them comparable level by level for the whole 20. Of course homebrew like that is actually beyond the scope of the thread ..... . At our table we don't use much homebrew, but we are constantly adding more and more Pathfinder content. It's still not even close .................

[lylsyly]

Low sodium salt for me.

Off topic but try sea salt dude.

[Crichton]

And I don't like the word mundane much for fantastic characters, mainly because it tends to mean "dull" and "uninteresting" or "ordinary." Which is pretty much the opposite of fantastic. When a guy can kill large predatory animals in a few seconds with a normal weapon or go into a group of them with only a pointy stick and come out slightly injured, I don't think they count as "mundane." Maybe not spell casters, but not mundane since even Captain America's returning shield can be replicated at Level 5, so it stands to reason Level 20 definitely left mundane behind a while ago...

I don't disagree with you that it has that alternate meaning and connotations that can be distasteful, but what term would you suggest we standardize to use when referring to classes that explicitly have no innate abilities to do anything magical, supernatural or otherwise beyond the in-universe laws of normal physics? I sometimes use the term 'martials' but that includes classes that do have innate powers or abilities (like ToB classes, etc)

[AntiAuthority]

I don't disagree with you that it has that alternate meaning and connotations that can be distasteful, but what term would you suggest we standardize to use when referring to classes that explicitly have no innate abilities to do anything magical, supernatural or otherwise beyond the in-universe laws of normal physics? I sometimes use the term 'martials' but that includes classes that do have innate powers or abilities (like ToB classes, etc)

I think the word martial is fine, and I use it myself too.

I think the big thing is to stop using the word mundane though.

Off the top of my head, I'll list some possible names besides martial: Hero, Godlike, Prodigious, Extraordinary, Exceptionals, Mythological, Superhuman, Unreal, Fantastic (though this one is too broad for me, but whatever). Maybe put Martials after the end of each of those words to help carry the point across? I wish I could think of a word that captures being a warrior and beyond what a real world human, but the only thing that really comes to mind is Hero...

[Crichton]

I think the word martial is fine, and I use it myself too.

I think the big thing is to stop using the word mundane though.

Off the top of my head, I'll list some possible names besides martial: Hero, Godlike, Prodigious, Extraordinary, Exceptionals, Mythological, Superhuman, Unreal, Fantastic (though this one is too broad for me, but whatever). Maybe put Martials after the end of each of those words to help carry the point across? I wish I could think of a word that captures being a warrior and beyond what a real world human, but the only thing that really comes to mind is Hero...

I like where you're going with this, but remember that the word you're trying to replace (mundane) needs to have the same limitations: It needs to ONLY refer to classes that, while they can be stronger, faster, bigger, more dexterous/coordinated, etc than real-life humans, don't have any kind of innate magical or supernatural abilities at all (of which, the Fighter that this thread is arguing about is a good example). The suggestions you offer don't impose that limitations, nor does the term 'martial.'

In comics (since the Captain America example was used a couple posts ago), the term often used is 'peak human' implying that the character is at the extreme upper limit of what human physiology is capable of, but doesn't have any other abilities (though in reality those comics characters often exceed what is even 'peak' possible by some degree, while still not having any other special abilities). It's not so applicable here, because we need to refer to classes, regardless of race, and also because in comics, it describes the character as a whole, not separating race from class, etc, but it's a good equivalent, for using to come up with an equivalent applicable term, since y'all don't like the connotations of 'mundane' (I don't personally have any problem separating its 2 senses or usages)

[sandmote]

The balance factor when you compare whole characters, since you can't play a class alone, comes in the notion of how much they can do -at any one time-.

Yes, that was the point of writing out this out as a formula. Although I will update it to synthesize in your bits on optimization around here:

Ptotal = O(Rbase racial - RRHD & LA cost + W + Lall classes)

Where P power, O is the level of optimization, R is racial features, W is wealth (ie. acquired items) and L is levels.

So non comprehensive list of things included in the forumula

• the amount and availability of PrC
• That a wizard gets (by one of kelb's comments) +50% from W, and a fighter gets more than 50%.
• That we're either comparing Wizard 20 to fighter 20, or two characters with a bunch of PrC levels + possible multiclassing, not Wizard 20 to a maximally optimized PrC heavy martial.

Oh, you misunderstand - I'm completely fine with all the (bolded) examples you just listed. And you're right, all of that stuff is perfectly doable with a D&D fighter or barbarian today. Rather, I suspect that the folks complaining about caster-martial disparity have other deficiencies in mind than paltry actions such as these.

My argument is based on you being completely fine with the examples I listed. Because rather than being "paltry," they're more anime than a lot of the stuff that gets this response:

casters are ahead of martials in several respects, but martials can still contribute to the group's overall success without being warped into pseudo-casters themselves.

Frankly, I don't see how this isn't cherry picking. Some magical abilities are "paltry," while others are "too anime," and I the only delineation seems to be whether or not the martial classes can already do them in the material you like.

...And? Mages are clearly effective (and don't need to be carried to the battlefield in pieces, for that matter), so they should and would be targeted by anyone with the slightest grasp of tactics.

Sorry, I'm having trouble finding the part where you explain how the same principle applies to martials. Could you provide a quote to it? Particularly once the casters have a supply of summoning spells.

If that's not good enough, either multiclass or pick something else but -stop- blaming the fighter for not being a perfect representation of what -you- think a fighter should be and refusing solve your problem. Knights, swashbucklers, samurai, barbarians, non-caster rangers, and a whole slew of PrCs that extend any of them and the fighter exist.

...

Spoiler: comics

Show

Maybe look at the system as a whole rather than just the one class?

I'm blaming the fighter class in particular for not being a competent representation of anything. And if it were, I don't think you'd have to bring in non-PC options to compare it to:

The -entire- difference between the fighter PC class and the warrior NPC class is that talent. The former is a little tougher, a little more prone to figuring out the tricks of the trade, a little luckier perhaps. The same XP gets you the same number of levels and their training is in the same field. What else would you use to explain why one gets a larger HD and -way- more combat competency?

The Warrior is an NPC class and not in the running to match a fighter. Same way an Adept is fundamentally a weaker cleric and an expert is a rogue with fewer skill points and no combat features. So what you would use to explain the difference is that "they are for fundamentally different purposes."

It needs to ONLY refer to classes that, while they can be stronger, faster, bigger, more dexterous/coordinated, etc than real-life humans, don't have any kind of innate magical or supernatural abilities at all (of which, the Fighter that this thread is arguing about is a good example). The suggestions you offer don't impose that limitations, nor does the term 'martial.'

Supernatural levels of being "stronger, faster, bigger, more dexterous/coordinated, etc," are still supernatural, so if you exclude them you're excluding the fighter class anyway, much less every other martial.

[Crichton]

Supernatural levels of being "stronger, faster, bigger, more dexterous/coordinated, etc," are still supernatural, so if you exclude them you're excluding the fighter class anyway, much less every other martial.

Pretty sure you're misunderstanding the intent and the term's meaning. Those things aren't inherently supernatural. They can be at levels beyond what's normally possible in real life humans, but that doesn't make them Supernatural (in the game rule sense, nor in the generally accepted sense of something magical, otherworldly, or outside the known laws of physics, etc) And that's what I meant when I referred to classes without innate magical or supernatural abilities. Levels of strength greater than real life, or reaction times/reflexes quicker than real life aren't magical or supernatural, in the game's terms.


The whole point was that some people don't like using the term 'mundane' to refer to such classes, so in order to appease their sensibilities, we need to find another term that imposes the same boundaries.

[sandmote]

Pretty sure you're misunderstanding the intent and the term's meaning. Those things aren't inherently supernatural. They can be at levels beyond what's normally possible in real life humans, but that doesn't make them Supernatural (in the game rule sense, nor in the generally accepted sense of something magical, otherworldly, or outside the known laws of physics, etc) And that's what I meant when I referred to classes without innate magical or supernatural abilities. Levels of strength greater than real life, or reaction times/reflexes quicker than real life aren't magical or supernatural, in the game's terms.


The whole point was that some people don't like using the term 'mundane' to refer to such classes, so in order to appease their sensibilities, we need to find another term that imposes the same boundaries.

Good point. For 3.5e the specific term is Extraordinary, with the mechanical difference being how the feature interacts with an antimagic field.

I mostly jumped in "supernatural," as the first thing I remembered in contrast too "anime."

No, seriously, where is cutting through a person per second not anime? Getting eaten and then cutting your way out is what? Please, explain exactly how going toe to toe with an adult dragon with a sword and your hit points does not qualify already -- and D&D's dragons are heavily anime compared to the ones from Arthurian legend. If you've decided allowing fighters to do anything from the old mythology LotR was based on is "too anime," to be included for a martial, then they're already breaking your suspension of disbelief with the features you get from having hit dice.

[Psyren]

My argument is based on you being completely fine with the examples I listed. Because rather than being "paltry," they're more anime than a lot of the stuff that gets this response:
...
Frankly, I don't see how this isn't cherry picking. Some magical abilities are "paltry," while others are "too anime," and I the only delineation seems to be whether or not the martial classes can already do them in the material you like.

As a refresher, your bolded examples were:

• Cutting through an enemy per second (i.e. 6 enemies/round)
• Cutting your way out of a creature that swallowed you
• Fighting an adult dragon

Yes, martials can do all three of these just fine; I labeled them "paltry" because they don't even need much optimization (and no spellcasting either) to pull off.

Sorry, I'm having trouble finding the part where you explain how the same principle applies to martials. Could you provide a quote to it? Particularly once the casters have a supply of summoning spells.

You said, and I quote: "battlefield artillery didn't become a major target until it was an effective method of devastating the enemy." Casters are absolutely artillery by that definition, so them being a major target for any enemy capable of tactics is expected.

[OrbanSirgen]

You said, and I quote: "battlefield artillery didn't become a major target until it was an effective method of devastating the enemy." Casters are absolutely artillery by that definition, so them being a major target for any enemy capable of tactics is expected.

Also, if someone is seen casting a spell, any spell, they would be the first target simply for being unpredictable... A fighter is fairly predictable in that they would be fighting in some way, most likely with weapons... A caster, on the other hand, could have pretty much anything ready to let loose at any time... Why give them the chance?

[AntiAuthority]

I like where you're going with this, but remember that the word you're trying to replace (mundane) needs to have the same limitations: It needs to ONLY refer to classes that, while they can be stronger, faster, bigger, more dexterous/coordinated, etc than real-life humans, don't have any kind of innate magical or supernatural abilities at all (of which, the Fighter that this thread is arguing about is a good example). The suggestions you offer don't impose that limitations, nor does the term 'martial.'

In comics (since the Captain America example was used a couple posts ago), the term often used is 'peak human' implying that the character is at the extreme upper limit of what human physiology is capable of, but doesn't have any other abilities (though in reality those comics characters often exceed what is even 'peak' possible by some degree, while still not having any other special abilities). It's not so applicable here, because we need to refer to classes, regardless of race, and also because in comics, it describes the character as a whole, not separating race from class, etc, but it's a good equivalent, for using to come up with an equivalent applicable term, since y'all don't like the connotations of 'mundane' (I don't personally have any problem separating its 2 senses or usages)

... I can't think of a word in all honesty to refer specifically to superhuman martial classes. Maybe someone better with coming up with names can...?

[Bartmanhomer]

Off topic but try sea salt dude.

Sure. I'm going to try it. Anyway just to be on-topic Wizard is always going to better than Fighter even on Epic Levels.

[danzibr]

Sure. I'm going to try it. Anyway just to be on-topic Wizard is always going to better than Fighter even on Epic Levels.

... *even* on epic levels? The higher the level, the greater the gap.

Anyway, I really like the whole physically-you-can-do-extraordinary-things concept. Like swing your sword so masterfully you cut through space, or so hard you disintegrate part of a wall, or things like that.

[Bartmanhomer]

... *even* on epic levels? The higher the level, the greater the gap.

Anyway, I really like the whole physically-you-can-do-extraordinary-things concept. Like swing your sword so masterfully you cut through space, or so hard you disintegrate part of a wall or things like that.

Yes, Wizards can beat Fighter even on Epic Levels. That like saying Io can beat Godzilla or Doctor Strange can beat Superman.

[Segev]

Yes, Wizards can beat Fighter even on Epic Levels. That like saying Io can beat Godzilla or Doctor Strange can beat Superman.

*cough* To be fair, Superman has an explicit gap in his invulnerability when it comes to magic. I'd call it a "weakness" or "vulnerability," but he's no more vulnerable to it than a normal human. It's just that, for him, "as vulnerable as a normal human" IS a notable weakness.

[Bartmanhomer]

*cough* To be fair, Superman has an explicit gap in his invulnerability when it comes to magic. I'd call it a "weakness" or "vulnerability," but he's no more vulnerable to it than a normal human. It's just that, for him, "as vulnerable as a normal human" IS a notable weakness.

True but he's still weak against magic.

[Psyren]

True but he's still weak against magic.

I strongly advise you drop this analogy before it derails the entire thread

... *even* on epic levels? The higher the level, the greater the gap.

Anyway, I really like the whole physically-you-can-do-extraordinary-things concept. Like swing your sword so masterfully you cut through space, or so hard you disintegrate part of a wall, or things like that.

Disintegrating part of a wall is fine and is something martials can do now.

"Cut through space" is a bit vague - technically every sword swing ever "cuts through space." If you mean something like teleportation or planar travel, I'd put heavy limitations on it, e.g. probably wouldn't be any more powerful than dimension door etc.

[AntiAuthority]

Sure. I'm going to try it. Anyway just to be on-topic Wizard is always going to better than Fighter even on Epic Levels.

Yeah, but it's because of how the game was designed, not necessarily because of realism or anything like the title of this thread's title suggests.

---

... *even* on epic levels? The higher the level, the greater the gap.

Anyway, I really like the whole physically-you-can-do-extraordinary-things concept. Like swing your sword so masterfully you cut through space, or so hard you disintegrate part of a wall, or things like that.

I like the way you think.

Kenpachi from Bleach can cut space with his sword.

As can a character from Overlord that had a class that gave him the ability to cut the fabric of space and time. He was also stronger than the MC (who is heavily inspired by what a D&D Wizard can do, I believe the 3.5E version especially).

---

Yes, Wizards can beat Fighter even on Epic Levels. That like saying Io can beat Godzilla or Doctor Strange can beat Superman.

Magically isn't universally superior to martial warriors across the board though in comics and comic inspired material.

Thor also beats Loki plenty of times in comics (and one panel, Loki said his spells don't really work on Thor in his god form...).

World War Hulk also overpowered Dr. Strange...

In Hulk vs Thor, both Loki and the Enchantress were pretty much powerless after the Hulk broke free of their spell. They needed to remove Bruce Banner from the Hulk, and Loki pretty much hijacked the Hulk's body... Turns out that Loki's anger ended up fueling the Hulk's power (IIRC, the Enchantress noted the Hulk seemed to be resisting the spell on some level and was cautious of giving the Hulk anymore power, and was worried by Loki's frustrations making Hulk harder to control), then the Hulk broke free and was too angry to be controlled anymore by magic. So three gods (Loki, the Enchantress and later Hela), all powerful magic users, were pretty much powerless and wondering, "What do we do now with this thing on the loose?" Hela even compared the Hulk's rampage to Ragnarok...

---

*cough* To be fair, Superman has an explicit gap in his invulnerability when it comes to magic. I'd call it a "weakness" or "vulnerability," but he's no more vulnerable to it than a normal human. It's just that, for him, "as vulnerable as a normal human" IS a notable weakness.

True but he's still weak against magic.

Most versions of Superman are as vulnerable as the next person to magic, but Superman is infamous for his inability to handle magic.

Superman Prime isn't though lol. It's unclear if he's just highly resistant to magic or outright immune, either way, Black Adam's magic infused punches don't do anything except tickle him. Black Adam was clearly surprised as his magic punches usually worked on his universe's version of Superman, but Prime doesn't play by the same rules as the other versions of himself.

Same with Superman One Million, who's just a Superman who took a sunbath for a millennia or so, is mentioned to be immune to magic.

There's probably other versions of Superman with similar resistances that I'm not aware of. Definitely more comic heroes that are resistant/immune to magic outside of Superman too.

[Battleship789]

*snip*

Kenpachi from Bleach can cut space with his sword.

As can a character from Overlord that had a class that gave him the ability to cut the fabric of space and time. He was also stronger than the MC (who is heavily inspired by what a D&D Wizard can do, I believe the 3.5E version especially).

*snip*

The author has said that the Overlord MC is literally a level 40 3.5 necromancer with a homebrew epic prestige class, just recast in terms of a MMO (Mana instead of Vancian spellcasting, character progression is spread out over 100 levels).

[Lord Raziere]

... I can't think of a word in all honesty to refer specifically to superhuman martial classes. Maybe someone better with coming up with names can...?

I dunno, Powerhouses? Exemplars? Mightists? Wuxia? Martial Artists? Pinnacles? Peaks? Unlimited? Limitless? Improvers? Hypers? Determined? Honed? Fists? Epitomes? Paragons? Nonpareil? Potents? Talents? Masters? Courageous? Braves? Dedicated? Persistent? Valorous? Apexes? Maximums? Ascendants? Outbreakers? Aretes?

hm....

honestly I personally think Pinnacles is the best name out of all them because it leaves it open as to exactly what they are a Pinnacle OF, which is important I think.

[Bartmanhomer]

Yeah, but it's because of how the game was designed, not necessarily because of realism or anything like the title of this thread's title suggests.

---

I like the way you think.

Kenpachi from Bleach can cut space with his sword.

As can a character from Overlord that had a class that gave him the ability to cut the fabric of space and time. He was also stronger than the MC (who is heavily inspired by what a D&D Wizard can do, I believe the 3.5E version especially).

---

Magically isn't universally superior to martial warriors across the board though in comics and comic inspired material.

Thor also beats Loki plenty of times in comics (and one panel, Loki said his spells don't really work on Thor in his god form...).

World War Hulk also overpowered Dr. Strange...

In Hulk vs Thor, both Loki and the Enchantress were pretty much powerless after the Hulk broke free of their spell. They needed to remove Bruce Banner from the Hulk, and Loki pretty much hijacked the Hulk's body... Turns out that Loki's anger ended up fueling the Hulk's power (IIRC, the Enchantress noted the Hulk seemed to be resisting the spell on some level and was cautious of giving the Hulk anymore power, and was worried by Loki's frustrations making Hulk harder to control), then the Hulk broke free and was too angry to be controlled anymore by magic. So three gods (Loki, the Enchantress and later Hela), all powerful magic users, were pretty much powerless and wondering, "What do we do now with this thing on the loose?" Hela even compared the Hulk's rampage to Ragnarok...

---

Most versions of Superman are as vulnerable as the next person to magic, but Superman is infamous for his inability to handle magic.

Superman Prime isn't though lol. It's unclear if he's just highly resistant to magic or outright immune, either way, Black Adam's magic infused punches don't do anything except tickle him. Black Adam was clearly surprised as his magic punches usually worked on his universe's version of Superman, but Prime doesn't play by the same rules as the other versions of himself.

Same with Superman One Million, who's just a Superman who took a sunbath for a millennia or so, is mentioned to be immune to magic.

There's probably other versions of Superman with similar resistances that I'm not aware of. Definitely, more comic heroes that are resistant/immune to magic outside of Superman too.

Ok maybe to some degree that some martial warriors can outmatch magic users.

[AntiAuthority]

The author has said that the Overlord MC is literally a level 40 3.5 necromancer with a homebrew epic prestige class, just recast in terms of a MMO (Mana instead of Vancian spellcasting, character progression is spread out over 100 levels).

I also remember that Ainz apparently has Pay to Win items to fall back on if his 700~ spells aren't enough for the job. So a Necromancer with a ton of artifacts.

---

I dunno, Powerhouses? Exemplars? Mightists? Wuxia? Martial Artists? Pinnacles? Peaks? Unlimited? Limitless? Improvers? Hypers? Determined? Honed? Fists? Epitomes? Paragons? Nonpareil? Potents? Talents? Masters? Courageous? Braves? Dedicated? Persistent? Valorous? Apexes? Maximums? Ascendants? Outbreakers? Aretes?

hm....

honestly I personally think Pinnacles is the best name out of all them because it leaves it open as to exactly what they are a Pinnacle OF, which is important I think.

I'm actually good with pretty much all of those, Wuxia because they're doing things beyond what real humans can do, martial artists because that what they are, as well as Limitless. Ascendant sticks out the best to me though, gives the impression of becoming something greater. Pinnacles has the same feeling to it, as well as putting on what they're the pinnacles of...

Wuxia might make the most sense though....

---

Ok maybe to some degree that some martial warriors can outmatch magic users.

I don't think it's as overwhelming as you seem to imply it is, but I don't know 100% of every story ever, so I can't say that for sure. I'd say it's probably around even though.

In Dragon Ball, King Piccolo was able to instantly kill the nigh omnipotent dragon, Vegeta resisted Babidi's control (and admitted he allowed himself to get possessed in the first place), Shenron admitted his spells don't work on beings more powerful than himself and magic users tend to be weaker than martial artists.

Kratos in God of War is pretty much a Barbarian/Fighter that tears through plenty of magic wielding enemies, including the Greek pantheonand some of the Norse pantheon so far.

Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden is a ninja with weapons who defeats creator deities, armies of demons and magic users.

Dante from Devil May Cry is a martial who defeats plenty of powerful demons, is mentioned to have surpassed the power of his legendary father, has defeated several magic (or elemental) wielding demons as well as Demon Lord-category demons... He rarely takes the god-like beings seriously in some games as well. Mundus, for example, can apparently create his own dimension, create projections of himself, strike enemies down from a distance with lightning and Dante... Is just a half-demon with weapons he takes/transforms his enemies into and can become a demon for short periods of time.

Asura from Asura's Wrath beat the creator deity of his world to death with his bare fists and wrath.

Link from Legend of Zelda is usually just a guy with a sword who picks up magic/non-magical items and techniques along the way, but ends up routinely defeating Ganondorf, who is very competent with the magic he performs (the curses, the creatures he creates, being able to harness the power of his Triforce more completely than the other two).

Asta from Black Clover has Anti-Magic flowing through his body and exists in a world where literally everyone can perform magic.

Samurai Jack defeats magic users, and his main antagonist is basically a magic user that he (eventually) killed... It was clear Aku was perfectly aware he couldn't beat Jack so just hid himself for 50 years because he thought Jack would eventually kill him. Jack won their first fight by all means, regardless of whatever shape shifting Aku pulled out, and Jack's Father beat Aku too in the past.

He-Man defeats Skeletor constantly.

There was that time Mythological Thor was tricked by a giant magic user and ended up making valleys, lifting the world serpent and wrestling with the personification of Old Age, scaring the giant magic user so much that he decided to just teleport away for fear of revenge. Thor was apparently the most terrifying enemy to face, regardless of magic.

Just off the top of my head, definitely more that I'm not aware of, but I don't think it's like a super rare thing for martials to defeat dedicated magic users or anything. Probably fairly common in older stories where the protagonists often used their strength of arms to defeat the evil mage.

---

Point of the list (Not really directed at just you, but I feel this needs to be said because of the original post and other threads and comments like it) is there isn't anything in reality saying that magic should be superior to martial prowess, or that martial prowess should be superior to magic. Neither exist, thus there is no reason to try to apply realism to say "magic should be stronger than martials because magic doesn't exist and martials do exist" when magic is inherently unrealistic, much like there is no reason to apply realism to say "superhuman martials should be stronger than magic because magic doesn't exist while martials do so magic shouldn't do anything at all" when superhuman martials are equally as unrealistic. Either one can be as strong or weak as the creators want them to be, neither is inherently superior or inferior to the other in terms of power because neither one exist. Arguing either one should be inherently superior or inferior to another might as well be like arguing Santa Clause should be better than Paul Bunyan because, "It just makes sense Santa Clause is more powerful than Paul Bunyan, he's magic!" when neither one of these fantastic characters exist and someone could just as easily say the opposite has to be true because, "It just makes sense Paul Bunyan is more powerful than Santa Clause, he's a giant!" One has magic, the other's an impossibly big guy, neither exist, both do impossible things just by existing and there is no precedent that one should be better than the other... It's only entirely subjective which one people believe should be better, but nothing objective.

If anyone sees a superhuman Fighter deflect a boulder with a sword lose to a Wizard throwing Fireballs, ok, cool... If you see a Wizard that's hurling lightning get decapitated by a swordsman who can dodge lightning bolts, great... I will change my thoughts entirely if either of these two fantastic individuals exist in real life, but until then, neither one of those two exist, so arguing which one is supposed to be better goes back to the Paul Bunyan vs Santa Clause thing and "It just makes sense because it just does." Which isn't an argument for anything beyond feelings and circular reasoning.

[Bartmanhomer]

I also remember that Ainz apparently has Pay to Win items to fall back on if his 700~ spells aren't enough for the job. So a Necromancer with a ton of artifacts.

---

I'm actually good with pretty much all of those, Wuxia because they're doing things beyond what real humans can do, martial artists because that what they are, as well as Limitless. Ascendant sticks out the best to me though, gives the impression of becoming something greater. Pinnacles has the same feeling to it, as well as putting on what they're the pinnacles of...

Wuxia might make the most sense though....

---

I don't think it's as overwhelming as you seem to imply it is, but I don't know 100% of every story ever, so I can't say that for sure. I'd say it's probably around even though.

In Dragon Ball, King Piccolo was able to instantly kill the nigh omnipotent dragon, Vegeta resisted Babidi's control (and admitted he allowed himself to get possessed in the first place), Shenron admitted his spells don't work on beings more powerful than himself and magic users tend to be weaker than martial artists.

Kratos in God of War is pretty much a Barbarian/Fighter that tears through plenty of magic wielding enemies, including the Greek pantheonand some of the Norse pantheon so far.

Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden is a ninja with weapons who defeats creator deities, armies of demons and magic users.

Dante from Devil May Cry is a martial who defeats plenty of powerful demons, is mentioned to have surpassed the power of his legendary father, has defeated several magic (or elemental) wielding demons as well as Demon Lord-category demons... He rarely takes the god-like beings seriously in some games as well. Mundus, for example, can apparently create his own dimension, create projections of himself, strike enemies down from a distance with lightning and Dante... Is just a half-demon with weapons he takes/transforms his enemies into and can become a demon for short periods of time.

Asura from Asura's Wrath beat the creator deity of his world to death with his bare fists and wrath.

Link from Legend of Zelda is usually just a guy with a sword who picks up magic/non-magical items and techniques along the way, but ends up routinely defeating Ganondorf, who is very competent with the magic he performs (the curses, the creatures he creates, being able to harness the power of his Triforce more completely than the other two).

Asta from Black Clover has Anti-Magic flowing through his body and exists in a world where literally everyone can perform magic.

Samurai Jack defeats magic users, and his main antagonist is basically a magic user that he (eventually) killed... It was clear Aku was perfectly aware he couldn't beat Jack so just hid himself for 50 years because he thought Jack would eventually kill him. Jack won their first fight by all means, regardless of whatever shape shifting Aku pulled out, and Jack's Father beat Aku too in the past.

He-Man defeats Skeletor constantly.

There was that time Mythological Thor was tricked by a giant magic user and ended up making valleys, lifting the world serpent and wrestling with the personification of Old Age, scaring the giant magic user so much that he decided to just teleport away for fear of revenge. Thor was apparently the most terrifying enemy to face, regardless of magic.

Just off the top of my head, definitely more that I'm not aware of, but I don't think it's like a super rare thing for martials to defeat dedicated magic users or anything. Probably fairly common in older stories where the protagonists often used their strength of arms to defeat the evil mage.

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Point of the list (Not really directed at just you, but I feel this needs to be said because of the original post and other threads and comments like it) is there isn't anything in reality saying that magic should be superior to martial prowess, or that martial prowess should be superior to magic. Neither exist, thus there is no reason to try to apply realism to say "magic should be stronger than martials because magic doesn't exist and martials do exist" when magic is inherently unrealistic, much like there is no reason to apply realism to say "superhuman martials should be stronger than magic because magic doesn't exist while martials do so magic shouldn't do anything at all" when superhuman martials are equally as unrealistic. Either one can be as strong or weak as the creators want them to be, neither is inherently superior or inferior to the other in terms of power because neither one exist. Arguing either one should be inherently superior or inferior to another might as well be like arguing Santa Clause should be better than Paul Bunyan because, "It just makes sense Santa Clause is more powerful than Paul Bunyan, he's magic!" when neither one of these fantastic characters exist and someone could just as easily say the opposite has to be true because, "It just makes sense Paul Bunyan is more powerful than Santa Clause, he's a giant!" One has magic, the other's an impossibly big guy, neither exist, both do impossible things just by existing and there is no precedent that one should be better than the other... It's only entirely subjective which one people believe should be better, but nothing objective.

If anyone sees a superhuman Fighter deflect a boulder with a sword lose to a Wizard throwing Fireballs, ok, cool... If you see a Wizard that's hurling lightning get decapitated by a swordsman who can dodge lightning bolts, great... I will change my thoughts entirely if either of these two fantastic individuals exist in real life, but until then, neither one of those two exist, so arguing which one is supposed to be better goes back to the Paul Bunyan vs Santa Clause thing and "It just makes sense because it just does." Which isn't an argument for anything beyond feelings and circular reasoning.

Ok I see your point. If this was different roleplaying system such as Mutants & Masterminds my opinions will changed But at the end of the day in D&D 3.5 Wizard will always trumps Fighter.

[AntiAuthority]

Ok I see your point. If this was different roleplaying system such as Mutants & Masterminds my opinions will changed But at the end of the day in D&D 3.5 Wizard will always trumps Fighter.

As it stands, Wizards definitely reign supreme. I won't deny that in the slightest. I don't like it, but it's the truth lol.

I'm more bothered people seem to think that there's a logical reasoning to one class being superior to another, as if having magic inherently means, "I win and am better than those without magic."

[Lord Raziere]

As it stands, Wizards definitely reign supreme. I won't deny that in the slightest. I don't like it, but it's the truth lol.

I'm more bothered people seem to think that there's a logical reasoning to one class being superior to another, as if having magic inherently means, "I win and am better than those without magic."

Exactly my problem as well. its all nonsense, its just wizard nonsense lines up with a nerds fantasy of book smarts-based empowerment which creates a bias.

also Aragorn and others like him are only interesting for one story, and the more you retread it, the more generic it gets: oh that badass with a sword? he becomes a king I never could've guessed, does he get a princess to marry to? he does? oh what a surprise. oh but wait the princess wants to be more than that and has a stubborn rebellious side to show she is more than a delicate princess? not even special anymore. do we get lessons on how rulership is more than just X? yes we probably do. oh how heavy the burden of leadership is blah blah blah, interferes with love life blah, must put up a front to give people hope blah blah, and so on.
though even then, a fighter does that badly: they simply don't have the charisma stats, or the ability to train those stats up or grow into them as the levels progress to become a leader of people, DnD simply isn't built for that, even less so than allowing the Wuxia. the Wuxia can at least fight on the same scale as wizards, a king character has to have a way to flex his leadership in mechanics or its all just fluff and GM allowance, and we already have Bards for support through shouting beautifully at people. and if your king, why go out and do things yourself, don't you have knights and such to kill things for you? doesn't really gel with adventuring. a king can be powerful but their power isn't really relevant to the adventuring lifestyle.

[Bartmanhomer]

As it stands, Wizards definitely reign supreme. I won't deny that in the slightest. I don't like it, but it's the truth lol.

I'm more bothered people seem to think that there's a logical reasoning to one class being superior to another, as if having magic inherently means, "I win and am better than those without magic."

That because there are Tiers for each class by showing how versatile and good each class are for Roleplaying situation. Wizard are Tier 1 because they can do just about everything in any situation. The fighter is Tier 5 because they are little useful but not that much.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have really been enjoying this discussion. However, to me the bottom line is CASTERS are better than MUNDANES because that is the way the game is designed. Let's face it. Wizard 20 with just the SRD is how much more powerful than a fighter 20 with full splatbook support?

See, this is the kind of statement that's just so blatantly wrong that it could only be born from an echo-chamber.

You can more than close the gap on wealth alone in that scenario.

I'm not, and never have been, denying that casters have a substantial advantage over non-casters within the overall frame of the sytsem. I've always been arguing that they're not at nearly as massive a one as people think when you look at actual characters in play, with all that entails, rather than focusing exclusively on class based build options.

[Psyren]

I'm more bothered people seem to think that there's a logical reasoning to one class being superior to another, as if having magic inherently means, "I win and am better than those without magic."

That's exactly what it means, but it doesn't mean that you have to be a caster to acess it. "Magic" means more than just spells after all - in D&D terms it also means SLAs and Supernatural abilities, both of which could easily be made available to non-spellcasting classes.

[AntiAuthority]

Exactly my problem as well. its all nonsense, its just wizard nonsense lines up with a nerds fantasy of book smarts-based empowerment which creates a bias.

There is never a reason for one imaginary thing to be more powerful than another imaginary thing because, "It just makes sense." lol

But really, there's also nothing stopping say, a Skill Check, from being so high that it does things that are impossible by our standards... But that'd be unrealistic in a world full of dragons, trolls, gods, wizards who can replicate mythological feats of power and Lovecraftian horrors, that's the part that's too wild to believe. Not that this person isn't a bloody red paste or that these ungodly powerful beings are having so much trouble apparently (if we use abstractions) even hitting this mere mortal, the ability to do something impossible by our standards without magic is where the line is crossed... Sigh.

also Aragorn and others like him are only interesting for one story, and the more you retread it, the more generic it gets: oh that badass with a sword? he becomes a king I never could've guessed, does he get a princess to marry to? he does? oh what a surprise. oh but wait the princess wants to be more than that and has a stubborn rebellious side to show she is more than a delicate princess? not even special anymore. do we get lessons on how rulership is more than just X? yes we probably do. oh how heavy the burden of leadership is blah blah blah, interferes with love life blah, must put up a front to give people hope blah blah, and so on.

Well, Tolkien (and CS Lewis) wanted to read those types of stories, but nobody was writing such fiction at the time, so decided to write them themselves. It's not particularly original, but it's meant to emulate fantasy stories of older tiimes... Not too sure how common these tropes were before Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia got into the spotlight though.

though even then, a fighter does that badly: they simply don't have the charisma stats, or the ability to train those stats up or grow into them as the levels progress to become a leader of people, DnD simply isn't built for that, even less so than allowing the Wuxia. the Wuxia can at least fight on the same scale as wizards, a king character has to have a way to flex his leadership in mechanics or its all just fluff and GM allowance, and we already have Bards for support through shouting beautifully at people. and if your king, why go out and do things yourself, don't you have knights and such to kill things for you? doesn't really gel with adventuring. a king can be powerful but their power isn't really relevant to the adventuring lifestyle.

Agreed, a Fighter is currently just limited to the role of unskilled brute who just pounds on the enemy until they go down from a mechanical point of view.

Maybe being given something to add to their Charisma based skill checks or something would help. It's a bad way to replicate something like Lord of the Rings without multi-classing or being very careful with how you set up your character... And Kings aren't really the best for adventuring, they'd tend to be too busy in navigating the political theater than going around and risking their lives by fighting monsters. Having knights fight for you is great, but it's not really your power at that point, and anyone with a similar amount of money could probably pull off what the King is doing...

A Wuxia style warrior would be able to remain competitive and feel like a character worthy of having a number higher than 6. To me, it feels like something like the Fighter has big numbers, but not abilities appropriate for a character of that level. Best way to to describe a Fighter 1 is, "I move and hit stuff" and a Fighter 20 as, "I move and hit stuff OR I move slightly and hit stuff." The way to describe a Wizard 1 is, "I can do a variety of different things with plenty of different spell load outs that vary in utility" and a Wizard 20 is "Reality Warper that's a few steps away from God." A Fighter is superhuman by that point, but it seems the D&D version doesn't want to do anything with it, while the Pathfinder version sort of does but doesn't commit and doesn't give you feats that show off amazing feats of power pass Level 9.

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That because there are Tiers for each class by showing how versatile and good each class are for Roleplaying situation. Wizard are Tier 1 because they can do just about everything in any situation. The fighter is Tier 5 because they are little useful but not that much.

I'm aware of the Tiers, but this ties back into there not really being any reason for magic to let the Wizard be able to do as much they can. The Wizard is only as strong or weak as the designers allow them to be.

The inverse is that there's no reason to have Fighters be as low as they are, when they could have given them more class skills, more skill points, more passive bonuses to skills, the ability to Full Attack and move at full speed as something Fighters can just do, better Saves, more abilities, etc. to remain competitive at higher levels... But they don't have magic so they're not allowed to be as cool or fantastic as the magic users is something people seem to believe.