Wizards should be better than fighters.

[Rater202]

Let's look at a different genre: Less High Fantasy and more Modern Fantasy: superhero comics:

Who are the most powerful Superheroes? DC's got Superman, who has his powers inherently but is explicitly not magic, and the Green Lanterns who use science to manipulate cosmic forces.

Marvel Has Powerhouse, who has a genetic mutation that makes him omnipotent but is otherwise a normal human with no special training.

Magic-Users tend to be high up in both sets, but never the top and on average Magic-Users in MArvel are weaker than most superheroes becuase of the costs of using magic.

Going back to more High Fantasy like Kulan Gath is one of the most powerful sorcerers Marvel Comics ever created. His first modern-day appearance had him killing a dozen superheroes and being such a big threat that they had to basically reset the timeline and make it so his soul was never able to get a host int he first place. He was explicitly stronger than Doctor Strange

He regularly got his ass handed to him by Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja back in the Hyborean age(Marvel had the Conan license for a very long time.)

So no, Magic does not automatically mean "better than non-magic.

It comes down entirely to the setting and the constraints of the setting and there's no reason for non-magic users to be limited to being the Wizard's sidekick.

I've already explained how Fighter is the best class option for a build to get theoretically infinite attacks in a single round.

[Bartmanhomer]

There is never a reason for one imaginary thing to be more powerful than another imaginary thing because "It just makes sense." lol

But really, there's also nothing stopping say, a Skill Check, from being so high that it does things that are impossible by our standards... But that'd be unrealistic in a world full of dragons, trolls, gods, wizards who can replicate mythological feats of power and Lovecraftian horrors, that's the part that's too wild to believe. Not that this person isn't a bloody red paste or that these ungodly powerful beings are having so much trouble apparently (if we use abstractions) even hitting this mere mortal, the ability to do something impossible by our standards without magic is where the line is crossed... Sigh.



Well, Tolkien (and CS Lewis) wanted to read those types of stories, but nobody was writing such fiction at the time, so decided to write them themselves. It's not particularly original, but it's meant to emulate fantasy stories of older times... Not too sure how common these tropes were before Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia got into the spotlight though.



Agreed, a Fighter is currently just limited to the role of an unskilled brute who just pounds on the enemy until they go down from a mechanical point of view.

Maybe being given something to add to their Charisma-based skill checks or something would help. It's a bad way to replicate something like Lord of the Rings without multi-classing or being very careful with how you set up your character... And Kings aren't really the best for adventuring, they'd tend to be too busy in navigating the political theatre than going around and risking their lives by fighting monsters. Having knights fight for you is great, but it's not really your power at that point, and anyone with a similar amount of money could probably pull off what the King is doing...

A Wuxia style warrior would be able to remain competitive and feel like a character worthy of having a number higher than 6. To me, it feels like something like the Fighter has big numbers, but not abilities appropriate for a character of that level. Best way to describe a Fighter 1 is, "I move and hit stuff" and a Fighter 20 as, "I move and hit stuff OR I move slightly and hit stuff." The way to describe a Wizard 1 is, "I can do a variety of different things with plenty of different spell load-outs that vary in utility" and a Wizard 20 is "Reality Warper that's a few steps away from God." A Fighter is superhuman by that point, but it seems the D&D version doesn't want to do anything with it, while the Pathfinder version sort of does but doesn't commit and doesn't give you feats that show off amazing feats of power pass Level 9.

---

I'm aware of the Tiers, but this ties back into there not really being any reason for the magic to let the Wizard be able to do as much they can. The Wizard is only as strong or weak as the designers allow them to be.

The inverse is that there's no reason to have Fighters be as low as they are when they could have given them more class skills, more skill points, more passive bonuses to skills, the ability to Full Attack and move at full speed as something Fighters can just do, better Saves, more abilities, etc. to remain competitive at higher levels... But they don't have magic so they're not allowed to be as cool or fantastic as the magic users are something people seem to believe.

If the Fighter were homebrew then maybe it might turn the tables around and most homebrew Fighter class are meh in my opinion.

[sorcererlover]

Let's look at a different genre: Less High Fantasy and more Modern Fantasy: superhero comics:

Who are the most powerful Superheroes? DC's got Superman, who has his powers inherently but is explicitly not magic, and the Green Lanterns who use science to manipulate cosmic forces.

Superman is not human. Green Lantern uses science. The inventor of the Green Lantern is worlds more powerful than the user of the Green Lantern.

Marvel Has Powerhouse, who has a genetic mutation that makes him omnipotent but is otherwise a normal human with no special training.

Not human. For example: My human fighter got a genetic mutation so I get to start with a STR score of 100.

Magic-Users tend to be high up in both sets, but never the top and on average Magic-Users in MArvel are weaker than most superheroes becuase of the costs of using magic.

OP is comparing brain v.s. brawn. Magic, Science, Technology, Genetic Manipulation, Alien Artifacts, or just aliens, etc. > all humans in super hero settings. Hell even Batman beats all of his supernatural foes using brain. In order for this analogy to work in your favor, you need to use a superhero without any super powers or advanced technology. If you find one that uses everyday or readily available tools to take down mad scientist villains let me know.

Closest I could think of is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because the turtles are explicitly shown to be no better than humans seeing how they consistently get bested by other humans and triumph solely through skill. And even then they usually win with high technology either stolen from their foes or that purple turtle makes.

[Lucas Yew]

As it stands, Wizards definitely reign supreme. I won't deny that in the slightest. I don't like it, but it's the truth lol.

I'm more bothered people seem to think that there's a logical reasoning to one class being superior to another, as if having magic inherently means, "I win and am better than those without magic."

Exactly my problem as well. its all nonsense, its just wizard nonsense lines up with a nerds fantasy of book smarts-based empowerment which creates a bias.

All so true, and I'd like to add one more thought of mine.

I don't think external help (like WBL gear or GM fiat) truly count as a D&D character's true capability. They are, as stated, external/extra; on a no-gear plus high level situation, guess which archetype, warrior or spellcaster, is more toast.

...probably my (South) Korean cultural upbringing influenced me quite much too, though (AFAIK, modern Korean gamers in general tend to detest cashmancy in any gaming and heavily mock and ridicule who does so).

[OrbanSirgen]

OP is comparing brain v.s. brawn. Magic, Science, Technology, Genetic Manipulation, Alien Artifacts, or just aliens, etc. > all humans in super hero settings. Hell even Batman beats all of his supernatural foes using brain. In order for this analogy to work in your favor, you need to use a superhero without any super powers or advanced technology. If you find one that uses everyday or readily available tools to take down mad scientist villains let me know.

Closest I could think of is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because the turtles are explicitly shown to be no better than humans seeing how they consistently get bested by other humans and triumph solely through skill. And even then they usually win with high technology either stolen from their foes or that purple turtle makes.

Probably the best example (albeit non-comics) I can think of would be MacGuyver... The man can do pretty much anything with just random stuff...

[Peat]

As it stands, Wizards definitely reign supreme. I won't deny that in the slightest. I don't like it, but it's the truth lol.

I'm more bothered people seem to think that there's a logical reasoning to one class being superior to another, as if having magic inherently means, "I win and am better than those without magic."

This.

And honestly, I'm okay with it rolling that way in D&D. Why not have stories like that? But its the idea that this is the only logical way for it to be, and that stories where the very human hero tears a hole through severely limited (albeit powerful in their sphere) mages don't exist, is what galls me.

[AntiAuthority]

Let's look at a different genre: Less High Fantasy and more Modern Fantasy: superhero comics:

Who are the most powerful Superheroes? DC's got Superman, who has his powers inherently but is explicitly not magic, and the Green Lanterns who use science to manipulate cosmic forces.

Marvel Has Powerhouse, who has a genetic mutation that makes him omnipotent but is otherwise a normal human with no special training.

Magic-Users tend to be high up in both sets, but never the top and on average Magic-Users in MArvel are weaker than most superheroes becuase of the costs of using magic.

Going back to more High Fantasy like Kulan Gath is one of the most powerful sorcerers Marvel Comics ever created. His first modern-day appearance had him killing a dozen superheroes and being such a big threat that they had to basically reset the timeline and make it so his soul was never able to get a host int he first place. He was explicitly stronger than Doctor Strange

He regularly got his ass handed to him by Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja back in the Hyborean age(Marvel had the Conan license for a very long time.)

So no, Magic does not automatically mean "better than non-magic.

It comes down entirely to the setting and the constraints of the setting and there's no reason for non-magic users to be limited to being the Wizard's sidekick.

I've already explained how Fighter is the best class option for a build to get theoretically infinite attacks in a single round.

I like the way you think, and yes, we should look to the most powerful comic character... And anime characters lol. So I suppose Superman Prime might be a good place to start, as he's basically an evil version of Superman, was inspired by Silver Age Superman's abilities, is very resistant it not outright immune to magic and faster than the Flash. Nothing saying he should be weaker or stronger than anyone in the story because that's how he was written.

---

If the Fighter were homebrew then maybe it might turn the tables around and most homebrew Fighter class are meh in my opinion.

Not sure how I'd distribute them at levels, but I wrote an example of what I think a realistic Fighter would be capable of...

---

Superman is not human. Green Lantern uses science. The inventor of the Green Lantern is worlds more powerful than the user of the Green Lantern.



Not human. For example: My human fighter got a genetic mutation so I get to start with a STR score of 100.




OP is comparing brain v.s. brawn. Magic, Science, Technology, Genetic Manipulation, Alien Artifacts, or just aliens, etc. > all humans in super hero settings. Hell even Batman beats all of his supernatural foes using brain. In order for this analogy to work in your favor, you need to use a superhero without any super powers or advanced technology. If you find one that uses everyday or readily available tools to take down mad scientist villains let me know.

Closest I could think of is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because the turtles are explicitly shown to be no better than humans seeing how they consistently get bested by other humans and triumph solely through skill. And even then they usually win with high technology either stolen from their foes or that purple turtle makes.

First... A Fighter can be a Tiefling, Orc, whatever, so not human by default.

Second... This argument is meaningless and an unnecessary nerf to martial characters.

Fighters can't be like Superman because they're not aliens, so need to be as strong as a normal human? Cool, Superman isn't allowed to be as powerful as he is because he doesn't have divine hair (Biblical Samson), is a literal magic golem (the Golem) or has the blood of the King of Olympus running through his veins (Hercules). That super strength? Doesn't matter, he's not a demi-god/blessed by a god/a construct. That nigh invulnerability? Doesn't matter, he doesn't have an impenetrable fur pelt from a magic lion he slew. Well he's powered by the sun and lower gravity than his home planet...? That's stupid, his inspirations weren't powered by the sun, so he has to be divinely gifted or a literal golem to have his powers. By your logic. Why can he have powers similar to (and surpass) these beings he was inspired by? Because he's a fictional character and doesn't exist.

Green Lantern is a guy with high tech abilities... Cool, guess he can't surpass his inspiration of a normal railroad worker who was holding up a green lantern or the genie from Aladdin. So now Green Lantern needs to be a railroad worker and needs magic and is not allowed to use hyper advanced alien technology, by your own logic, because his inspirations didn't have those things. Why can he though? Because he's a fictional character and doesn't exist. By the way, the original Green Lantern did have magic... But nobody cares that the later ones began using alien tech because they're fictional characters and don't exist.


Goku was inspired by Sun Wukong... Goku wasn't born from a stone egg, a literal monkey god thing (pre-Super anyway), or anything... So, by this logic, Son Goku isn't allowed to be anything awesome because he's just a lowly alien and needs to be a literal monkey god who did a ritual where Heaven would try to assassinate him a bunch or times or some such to be awesome... Why can he though? Because he's a fiction character and doesn't exist.

Speaking of Goku, I guess all non-Saiyan Shonen Protagonists inspired by Goku must be bound by the limitations of real life humans because they're not Saiyans like the character they were inspired by... And Goku's not allowed to have god-like powers like Sun Wukong because he's just a lowly alien and not an immortal god like his inspiration. By this logic that, "You must be X to be able to do X", so Goku being a mortal alien means he shouldn't have the powers that would be considered god-like, and anyone inspired by Goku must be a Saiyan to have similar levels of strength to a Saiyan, if we're sticking to this logic for some reason. Congratulations, now every single Shonen Battle character with god-like strength (like Goku) or inspired by Goku that isn't a god must be limited to real-life human levels of power... Anything else is a double standard.

Nobody's saying we want a 100% copy of Superman, Green Lantern or Goku. We're saying we want to use them as inspirations for what martial characters should be capable of. Inspirations, not copies.

Anyone wants to bring up, "Superman's an alien, so he doesn't work for mortal warriors as inspirations for their powers" then congratulations, you've now opened the door to, "Hercules, Samson and the Golem were all divine or magic in some way, so they don't work as inspirations for a completely mortal, unblessed, none magic alien's powers." So now Superman isn't allowed to have powers either because, "He's not magic or divine like the people he was based on." Goku's not allowed to be cool either since aliens don't exist, and he HAS to be a god (pre-Super) like his mythological inspiration to have his powers. Green Lanterns aren't allowed to be anyone but railroad workers who find magic lamps because they were inspired by a railroad worker and a literal genie, so hyper advanced alien rings can't do anything since it's not a magic lamp/a genie.

We're looking at inspirations, not 100% copies of these characters. Forbid if any of these characters actually surpass their inspirations in terms of power... Except Goku can multiply his power by going Super Saiyan, shoot fireballs out of his hands, read minds, sense energy and teleport (unlike Sun Wukong), Superman has super speed, shoots lasers out of his eyes, can fly, punch the walls of reality and can potentially grow infinitely in power from sunlight (unlike Samson, the Golem and Hercules), and the Green Lanterns are capable of interplanetary travel through flight and can recharge their power supplies instead of having a finite number of wishes (unlike a magic lamp). Why? Because they're fictional characters and don't exist.

If it were up to people using this argument as some kind of defense, 100% of superheroes and anime characters who do blatantly impossible things would have divine blood and magic in some form to explain why they can do what they do. No aliens (goodbye Superman and Goku, you're not gods so you don't get super powers), no martial arts/ training (Goku again, the entire cast of Dragon Ball, most Shonen Battle manga, Ryu and Akuma from Street Fighter and Saitama... They all gotta go because there's not a drop of divine blood or magic in them), no super devices (Sayonara Green Lantern and all science fiction based heroes, you're only allowed magic), no radiation (Goodbye Spider-Man and the Incredible Hulk, no divine blood, magic or blessings... _{Don't bring up that Other or Immortal Hulk story lines, these characters were steeped in science fiction as to the cause of their powers and given their powers through radiation for decades, trying to use this as an excuse would be pedantic and ignores the literal decades of backstory and AUs where those mystical storylines don't exist... This isn't even getting into how those story lines might be rectonned at a later date}) and no mutations/evolutionary based superpowers (goodbye to the entirety of My Hero Academia, the X-Men, etc.). Only beings with magic, divine blood or blessings are allowed to do impossible things by this logic. But why are all these explanations accepted despite not being magic, having divine blood or being blessed by a god? Because they're fictional characters and don't eixst.

This argument is meaningless and says nothing. They're only as powerful as the creators want them to be.

Why? Because they're fictional characters and don't exist.

---

All so true, and I'd like to add one more thought of mine.

I don't think external help (like WBL gear or GM fiat) truly count as a D&D character's true capability. They are, as stated, external/extra; on a no-gear plus high level situation, guess which archetype, warrior or spellcaster, is more toast.

...probably my (South) Korean cultural upbringing influenced me quite much too, though (AFAIK, modern Korean gamers in general tend to detest cashmancy in any gaming and heavily mock and ridicule who does so).

Hm... I agree.

I'd rather a character's power come from their own abilities rather than their gear. A Fighter can fly with magic boots? That's not impressive, guy either found the books or just has a lot of money. The gear's impressive, the person wearing it isn't and anyone wearing such equipment could do similar things.

If a Fighter lacks magic equipment to fly, let them jump their way up to their enemy or something.

---

This.

And honestly, I'm okay with it rolling that way in D&D. Why not have stories like that? But its the idea that this is the only logical way for it to be, and that stories where the very human hero tears a hole through severely limited (albeit powerful in their sphere) mages don't exist, is what galls me.

Yep, no reason to say one or the other should be superior other than belief.

[danzibr]

@AntiAuthority: thanks!

"Cut through space" is a bit vague - technically every sword swing ever "cuts through space." If you mean something like teleportation or planar travel, I'd put heavy limitations on it, e.g. probably wouldn't be any more powerful than dimension door etc.

lolol

It’d be great (and has probably been done) for someone to do absolutely mundane “feats” but state them in such a way to make it sound extraordinary.

[sorcererlover]

First... A Fighter can be a Tiefling, Orc, whatever, so not human by default.

Second... This argument is meaningless and an unnecessary nerf to martial characters.

Fighters can't be like Superman because they're not aliens, so need to be as strong as a normal human? Cool, Superman isn't allowed to be as powerful as he is because he doesn't have divine hair (Biblical Samson), is a literal magic golem (the Golem) or has the son of the King of Olympus running through his veins (Hercules). That super strength? Doesn't matter, he's not a demi-god/blessed by a god/a construct. That nigh invulnerability? Doesn't matter, he doesn't have an impenetrable fur pelt from a magic lion he slew. Well he's powered by the sun and lower gravity than his home planet...? That's stupid, his inspirations weren't powered by the sun, so he has to be divinely gifted or a literal golem to have his powers. By your logic. Why can he have powers similar to (and surpass) these beings he was inspired by? Because he's a fictional character and doesn't exist.

Green Lantern is a guy with high tech abilities... Cool, guess he can't surpass his inspiration of a normal railroad worker who was holding up a green lantern or the genie from Aladdin. So now Green Lantern needs to be a railroad worker and needs magic and is not allowed to use hyper advanced alien technology, by your own logic, because his inspirations didn't have those things. Why can he though? Because he's a fictional character and doesn't exist. By the way, the original Green Lantern did have magic... But nobody cares that the later ones began using alien tech because they're fictional characters and don't exist.


Goku was inspired by Sun Wukong... Goku wasn't born from a stone egg, a literal monkey god thing (pre-Super anyway), or anything... So, by this logic, Son Goku isn't allowed to be anything awesome because he's just a lowly alien and needs to be a literal monkey god who did a ritual where Heaven would try to assassinate him a bunch or times or some such to be awesome... Why can he though? Because he's a fiction character and doesn't exist.

Speaking of Goku, I guess Luffy and Naruto must be bound by the limitations of real life humans because they're not Saiyans like the character they were inspired by... And Goku's not allowed to have powers like Sun Wukong (and then some, like teleportation) because he's just a lowly alien and not an immortal god like his inspiration. By this logic that, "You must be X to be able to do X", so Goku being a mortal alien means he shouldn't have the powers that would be considered god-like, if we're sticking to this logic for some reason.

Nobody's saying we want a 100% copy of Superman, Green Lantern or Goku. We're saying we want to use them as inspirations for what martial characters should be capable of. Inspirations, not copies.

Anyone wants to bring up, "Superman's an alien, so he doesn't work for mortal warriors as inspirations for their powers" then congratulations, you've now opened the door to, "Hercules, Samson and the Golem were all divine or magic in some way, so they don't work as inspirations for a completely mortal, unblessed, none magic alien's powers." So now Superman isn't allowed to have powers either because, "He's not magic or divine like the people he was based on." Goku's not allowed to be cool either since aliens don't exist, and he HAS to be a god (pre-Super) like his mythological inspiration to have his powers. Green Lanterns aren't allowed to be anyone but railroad workers who find magic lamps because they were inspired by a railroad worker and a literal genie, so hyper advanced alien rings can't do anything since it's not a magic lamp/a genie.

We're looking at inspirations, not 100% copies of these characters. Forbid if any of these characters actually surpass their inspirations in terms of power... Except Goku can multiply his power by going Super Saiyan, shoot fireballs out of his hands, read minds, sense energy and teleport (unlike Sun Wukong), Superman has super speed, shoots lasers out of his eyes, can fly, punch the walls of reality and can potentially grow infinitely in power from sunlight (unlike Samson, the Golem and Hercules), and the Green Lanterns are capable of interplanetary travel through flight and can recharge their power supplies instead of having a finite number of wishes (unlike a magic lamp). Why? Because they're fictional characters and don't exist.

If it were up to people using this argument as some kind of defense, 100% of superheroes and anime characters who do blatantly impossible things would have divine blood and magic in some form to explain why they can do what they do. No aliens (goodbye Superman and Goku, you're not gods so you don't get super powers), no martial arts/ training (Goku again, the entire cast of Dragon Ball, most Shonen Battle manga, Ryu and Akuma from Street Fighter and Saitama... They all gotta go because there's not a drop of divine blood or magic in them), no super devices (Sayonara Green Lantern and all science fiction based heroes, you're only allowed magic), no radiation (Goodbye Spider-Man and the Incredible Hulk, no divine blood, magic or blessings... _{Don't bring up that Other or Immortal Hulk story lines, these characters were steeped in science fiction as to the cause of their powers and given their powers through radiation for decades, trying to use this as an excuse would be pedantic and ignores the literal decades of backstory and AUs where those mystical storylines don't exist... This isn't even getting into how those story lines might be rectonned at a later date}) and no mutations/evolutionary based superpowers (goodbye to the entirety of My Hero Academia, the X-Men, etc.). Only beings with magic, divine blood or blessings are allowed to do impossible things by this logic. But why are all these explanations accepted despite not being magic, having divine blood or being blessed by a god? Because they're fictional characters and don't eixst.

This argument is meaningless and says nothing. They're only as powerful as the creators want them to be.

Why? Because they're fictional characters and don't exist.

Ok. So I have a Pit Fiend Wizard, Gibbering Mouth Sorcerer, a Hagunemnon Cleric, and a Hecatoncheries Psion. Lets compare them to a human fighter and see which is better.

Yeah, using a mix of species in a discussion regarding pursuing martial crafts v.s. pursuing the magical and or scientific craft totally makes sense.

Whatever. Later.

[AntiAuthority]

@AntiAuthority: thanks!

You're welcome!

---

Ok. So I have a Pit Fiend Wizard, Gibbering Mouth Sorcerer, a Hagunemnon Cleric, and a Hecatoncheries Psion. Lets compare them to a human fighter and see which is better.

Yeah, using a mix of species in a discussion regarding pursuing martial crafts v.s. pursuing the magical and or scientific craft totally makes sense.

Whatever. Later.

That didn't address anything I said, but ok. Later then.

[Rater202]

Superman is not human. Green Lantern uses science.

Doesn't matter, the point is that they're not usig magic, they're using natural non-magical abilities and non-magical weapons.

Not human. For example: My human fighter got a genetic mutation so I get to start with a STR score of 100.

1: Master Mold disagrees with you and logically a single gene being differant isn't enough to make someone not human. 2: Irrelevant, the point is that he's not using magic, 3: congratualtions, you've made a fighter that's stronger than a magic-user. Now your'e getting it.

OP is comparing brain v.s. brawn. Magic, Science, Technology, Genetic Manipulation, Alien Artifacts, or just aliens, etc. > all humans in super hero settings. Hell even Batman beats all of his supernatural foes using brain. In order for this analogy to work in your favor, you need to use a superhero without any super powers or advanced technology. If you find one that uses everyday or readily available tools to take down mad scientist villains let me know.

OP is claiming that becuase technology is better than no technology, thus magic is better than non magic. An inherantly flawed premise, as the last eight pages of argument show.

And the I see you don't address Kulan Gath, a Wizard who killed Spider-Man and dozens of other heroes and magically altered reality in the state of New York, who required the X-Men and Doctor Strange to reset time to defeat, being killed by a normal woman wieling a normal sword. Being killed by Red Sonja was the whole reason he was in the modern age to begin with.

Ok. So I have a Pit Fiend Wizard, Gibbering Mouth Sorcerer, a Hagunemnon Cleric, and a Hecatoncheries Psion. Lets compare them to a human fighter and see which is better.

Yeah, using a mix of species in a discussion regarding pursuing martial crafts v.s. pursuing the magical and or scientific craft totally makes sense.

Whatever. Later.

Yes, it does. because it doesn't have to be a human fighter. A pit fiend Fighter easily kills a human wizard.

And a Shifter or Changeling Fighter 8+/Warshaper 4+ can kill all of those in one round using only their natural abilities trained up to their logical extreme for the purposes of combat.

[AntiAuthority]

Doesn't matter, the point is that they're not usig magic, they're using natural non-magical abilities and non-magical weapons.1: Master Mold disagrees with you and logically a single gene being differant isn't enough to make someone not human. 2: Irrelevant, the point is that he's not using magic, 3: congratualtions, you've made a fighter that's stronger than a magic-user. Now your'e getting it.

The race of the martial character doesn't really matter too much, I just don't think many people see the inconsistencies with using that logic as if it does...

Like I mentioned earlier, Goku and Superman have godlike strength and endurance despite being unblessed, non-magical mortals (unlike their inspirations), Flash has godlike speed despite being a mortal (unlike his inspiration of Hermes), so taking inspiration from their abilities, but not their race, makes sense.

Inspired by doesn't mean "copy entirely down to the smallest detail."

And the I see you don't address Kulan Gath, a Wizard who killed Spider-Man and dozens of other heroes and magically altered reality in the state of New York, who required the X-Men and Doctor Strange to reset time to defeat, being killed by a normal woman wieling a normal sword. Being killed by Red Sonja was the whole reason he was in the modern age to begin with.

I decided to check out Kulan Gath... Amazing lol. If I'm understanding it correctly, he can eat the hearts of other magic users to gain their powers? So, did he wind up in Manhattan and get a major buff to his abilities from eating the magic users there?

[Rater202]

Oh, no. Gath didn't really have a fleshed-out BAckstory utnil recently. He was created to be a generic evil Sorcerer for Conan the Brbarian to fight, then ended up as a Red Sonja villain before showing up in the modern age for a few stories an then vanishing for legal reasons when Marvel lost the Conan rights outside of an intercompany crossover they did with the people who got the Red Sonja rights after they did.

Now that Marvel has the Conan rights again, they're using Gath as the villain in Savage Avengers: Conan the Barbarian was stranded int he modern-day as a result of the Avengers going on a time-traveling mission. Now he's wandering around and being Conan in the modern Marvel Universe.

Gath being able to eat other Soercers to get their power(the Wiki is wrong, he eats the whole person. IT's just the first time he does it on screen eating a vaguely heart shared chunk of flesh is the first thing he does) was something introduced in Savage Avengers when they were fleshing out his backstory to make him a more suitable villain, in line with more modern comic book stories.

So while canonically eating other Sorcerers is why he's so powerful, canonically he did not do so in that particular storyline.

[magicalmagicman]

OP is claiming that becuase technology is better than no technology, thus magic is better than non magic. An inherantly flawed premise, as the last eight pages of argument show.

No i'm not. I'm saying study of technology or magic leads to thermonuclear bombs, robotic armies and factories, and body augmentations or changes that result in greater strength and reflexes than the human body can ever achieve, immortality, and other amazing feats, where as spending your life training your body results in at best beating several humans simultaneously in combat and you are defeated by old age, disease since you are incapable of creating cures, lack of access to air or food, and other stuff. Can't even throw a car.

So in conclusion wizards are better than fighters because spending your time unraveling the mysteries of the world and manipulating them is superior to training your body until it helpless dies to disease or old age.

And d&d implements this marvelously by giving wizards spells and tools that let them do everything above from building your own army where each unit is superior to fighters in every way to creating nukes that wipe out entire cities in one go and by giving fighters no other ability than increase their human combat prowess which is pathetic without a wizard giving him expensive gear because he can't make his own.

The fact that you want to pit a superman against a normal human scientist shows your desperation.

[JNAProductions]

No i'm not. I'm saying study of technology or magic leads to thermonuclear bombs, robotic armies and factories, and body augmentations or changes that result in greater strength and reflexes than the human body can ever achieve, immortality, and other amazing feats, where as spending your life training your body results in at best beating several humans simultaneously in combat and you are defeated by old age, disease since you are incapable of creating cures, lack of access to air or food, and other stuff. Can't even throw a car.

So in conclusion wizards are better than fighters because spending your time unraveling the mysteries of the world and manipulating them is superior to training your body until it helpless dies to disease or old age.

And d&d implements this marvelously by giving wizards spells and tools that let them do everything above from building your own army where each unit is superior to fighters in every way to creating nukes that wipe out entire cities in one go and by giving fighters no other ability than increase their human combat prowess which is pathetic without a wizard giving him expensive gear because he can't make his own.

The fact that you want to pit a superman against a normal human scientist shows your desperation.

Magic is fictional. Who says magic obeys rules? What if, after a hundred years of study, the only thing you've conclusively learned is that magic is random?

Moreover, D&D (any edition) is a game. A game. Meant to be played for fun-it is NOT meant to simulate reality. It does attempt to maintain verisimilitude, because consistency generally helps people get invested, but even if you say "By logic and realism, Magic should be better!" who cares?

Finally, if we're really getting realistic... Wizards don't gain HP. They don't train their bodies, so don't get inured to injuries-you're stuck with 4+Con Mod HP forever. It's only realistic, right?

[Drathon'Tal]

a low level wizard and a low level figher, will find that many things can beat them. but still they fight on, to progress into a better state, while doing quests, and other pc things.

a mid level wizard, can now start telling his foes to sit down and shut up, and a mid level fighter, can kick some butt, but still get regularly tromped. and they fight on...

A high level wizard, tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up, and a high level fighter, finds that he must do more than just fight things, to succeed. and they kick more butt than they did before.

an epic level wizard can tell deities and demigods to sit down and shut up, and an epic level fighter is still stuck fighting foes that the wizard long vanquished. do not mess with these people...

all that being said.

all wizards, and all fighters can still be felled by the smallest mistake, and or basic arrows when their concentration is elsewhere. so sure wizards can do more than fighters at higher levels. but dont get cocky, becuase all it takes is for you to roll a 1. and I dont care what you can do, it can still get you killed, easy. while dungeons and dragons is a game about power, control, numbers, odds, fantasy. there is still enough reality in it, that you can not just ignore reality, and expect it to not bite you in the rear sooner or later. play on, and stay humble. and aware of the possiblities, and your PCs will stay alive longer.

good luck on your adventures.

[AntiAuthority]

Oh, no. Gath didn't really have a fleshed-out BAckstory utnil recently. He was created to be a generic evil Sorcerer for Conan the Brbarian to fight, then ended up as a Red Sonja villain before showing up in the modern age for a few stories an then vanishing for legal reasons when Marvel lost the Conan rights outside of an intercompany crossover they did with the people who got the Red Sonja rights after they did.

Now that Marvel has the Conan rights again, they're using Gath as the villain in Savage Avengers: Conan the Barbarian was stranded int he modern-day as a result of the Avengers going on a time-traveling mission. Now he's wandering around and being Conan in the modern Marvel Universe.

Gath being able to eat other Soercers to get their power(the Wiki is wrong, he eats the whole person. IT's just the first time he does it on screen eating a vaguely heart shared chunk of flesh is the first thing he does) was something introduced in Savage Avengers when they were fleshing out his backstory to make him a more suitable villain, in line with more modern comic book stories.

So while canonically eating other Sorcerers is why he's so powerful, canonically he did not do so in that particular storyline.

... So this Wizard capable of bringing the 616 universe to its knees is beaten by Red Sonja... Lol. And looking at a respect thread for her, she has impressive feats.

---

No i'm not. I'm saying study of technology or magic leads to thermonuclear bombs, robotic armies and factories, and body augmentations or changes that result in greater strength and reflexes than the human body can ever achieve, immortality, and other amazing feats, where as spending your life training your body results in at best beating several humans simultaneously in combat and you are defeated by old age, disease since you are incapable of creating cures, lack of access to air or food, and other stuff. Can't even throw a car.

So in conclusion wizards are better than fighters because spending your time unraveling the mysteries of the world and manipulating them is superior to training your body until it helpless dies to disease or old age.

And d&d implements this marvelously by giving wizards spells and tools that let them do everything above from building your own army where each unit is superior to fighters in every way to creating nukes that wipe out entire cities in one go and by giving fighters no other ability than increase their human combat prowess which is pathetic without a wizard giving him expensive gear because he can't make his own.

The fact that you want to pit a superman against a normal human scientist shows your desperation.

Paul Bunyan vs Santa Claus. Magic doesn't exist, you're trying to say one is "more realistic" than the other when talking about something that's unrealistic. You might as well be arguing the Tooth Fairy being stronger than a Pecos Bill makes sense too while you're at it.

Magic... Doesn't exist... You want there to be some realism to an inherently unrealistic thing being tied to intelligence and being inherently stronger than martial prowess. This logic doesn't make sense. Why? Because magic doesn't eixst and isn't realistic. Much like how it wouldn't be realistic for martial prowess to be inherently stronger than magic... Why? Because superhuman martials don't exist and isn't realistic.

You're being awfully selective with realism here...

And a counterpoint... That you want to pit a reality warper against a normal human soldier shows your desperation. This logic works both ways, you're just being selective with its application and ignoring the double standard.

I've already covered this but... Maybe you'll listen to this guy's thoughts on realistic power levels between two unrealistic powers.

---

Magic is fictional. Who says magic obeys rules? What if, after a hundred years of study, the only thing you've conclusively learned is that magic is random?

Moreover, D&D (any edition) is a game. A game. Meant to be played for fun-it is NOT meant to simulate reality. It does attempt to maintain verisimilitude, because consistency generally helps people get invested, but even if you say "By logic and realism, Magic should be better!" who cares?

Finally, if we're really getting realistic... Wizards don't gain HP. They don't train their bodies, so don't get inured to injuries-you're stuck with 4+Con Mod HP forever. It's only realistic, right?

The OP is going by selective realism here and arguing this one imaginary thing should be inherently better than this other imaginary thing because realism and unrealistic things can apparently coexist and make perfect sense or something.

If we're really bringing up realism, like you said, Wizards shouldn't even get HP as they just wander around watching fights and miraculously get more Hit Points because... Selective Realism?

[Batcathat]

The fact that you want to pit a superman against a normal human scientist shows your desperation.

You're the only one equating wizards with scientists though. Based on... what exactly? Sure, I guess both use intelligence but saying that means wizards are scientists is like saying bards are politicians because both use charisma.

So in conclusion wizards are better than fighters because spending your time unraveling the mysteries of the world and manipulating them is superior to training your body until it helpless dies to disease or old age.

But "unraveling the mysteries of the world" as a wizard (which is entirely different than unraveling the mysteries of the world as a scientist, the same way both a painter and a god can "create landscapes" but aren't the same thing) only means whatever the creator of the game, book, movie or whatever want it to mean. I could make a game where a wizard had to study for fifty years before mentally flipping on a light switch and it would be just as realistic as a game where wizards can warp reality to their desires.

[Lord Raziere]

A realistic game of DnD would just be playing bandits and raiders in medieval europe like place with no magic, no alignment, no races other than human but maybe a higher percentage of short people represented by halflings. there'd be no monsters other than real animals that actually existed, the classes would be fighter, rogue and maybe a magic-less ranger. any "magic" that does exist would be pure con artist baloney and tricks to fool people. and even then its more profitable to fool people into thinking your blessed by a god than to fool people into thinking your a witch, because if your blessed by a god you can make people donate to the "cause" while if you make people think your a witch they're going to shun you, witch hunts are rare but generally not a good idea to make people think your using magic from a realistic standpoint, fake priest is a much better scam, more community and values focused while magic is generally seen as too outcast and individual to connect, gotta get that "make sure I get into Celestia when I die" cash, thats where the big money is. gotta emphasize the "its not magic, its miracles from my god" hair splitting difference, real important to the common folk.

so technically realistically speaking, fighters are better than wizards, because fighters have actually existed and killed people and thus would exist in any realistic game of DnD while the wizard would not. even the cleric is better realistically speaking as while it doesn't exist either, it at least provides you benefits from fooling people into thinking it does.

but seriously screw realism, you don't want realistic DnD.

[AntiAuthority]

Thinking about the OP, there's one issue I have with it, that I feel the OP hasn't considered. OP believes D&D reflects reality because smart people are capable of unraveling the secrets of the universe, so it makes sense that Wizards (the thing OP compared real life intellectuals to) should be able to bend reality and should be far more powerful than those who just rely on their physical prowess. OP claims intellect focused classes ought to be better because it reflects reality (in the form or smart people creating nukes and drones and such). "Intelligence lets you unravel reality, and no amount of training muscles or being a charismatic/wise/intelligent leader (like a IRL warrior would be) is going to let you get to that level." and all that... Right?


So... What about the wise idiots playing with reality like Druids and Clerics? They're Tier 1 too. Then there's the charismatic idiots like Sorcerers who are a lower tier (still higher than Fighters though) but still messing around with reality. Technically, I could even make a Druid, Cleric or Sorcerer feral and incapable of understanding languages yet still have the capability to play around with physics through using spells that they don't understand on an intellectual level, but can still perform from having such a strong personality or instinctual understanding of things that are too complex for their primitive minds to comprehend. Average intelligence, lower than average intelligence, or animalistic levels of intelligence... Still playing with reality. Sorcerers and Wizards have the same spells, while Druids and Clerics share some spells with Wizards, yet none of them have the Wizard's Intelligence as a requirement to cast spells that put them in Tier 1-2...

There's no real reason to say Wizards should be better than Fighters because realistically, athletes don't get as far in life as intelligent people when people with low intellects but high charisma or wisdom can mess around with reality on a similar level all the same as the educated people with high Intelligence Scores. It's not portraying reality at all, it's just an imbalanced system that people defend with realism.

As an aside, I realize I was basically describing Azathoth with the "idiotic reality warper" thing lol. Knowing a complete idiot with barely any sense of self could mess with reality or cause untold amounts of destruction any random moment is much more terrifying to me than a smart, evil wizard that's able to play around with reality.

[NigelWalmsley]

Magic is fictional. Who says magic obeys rules? What if, after a hundred years of study, the only thing you've conclusively learned is that magic is random?

Because that dynamic doesn't work well for TTRPGs, particularly if one of the characters is going to be a "guy who does magic". Magic has to have consistent, predictable effects because it is being used to tell a story. If the effect of "casting a spell" is "lolrandum happens", that's a big problem for the game. It's true that magic working that way is no less "realistic" than what D&D does, but practically that's not a viable dynamic.

Broadly, while it's true that you could make magic kinda weak and pointless, you're clearly not actually going to do that in the context we're discussing. D&D is a game about going into dungeons and fighting the things that live there, and it has classes that contribute to that by "doing magic". So clearly magic is going to be at least good enough that a guy who "does magic" is someone you take into a cave full of Orcs.

So in conclusion wizards are better than fighters because spending your time unraveling the mysteries of the world and manipulating them is superior to training your body until it helpless dies to disease or old age.

But why does this need to be true in a world in which the "mysteries of the world" include "make fire with your mind"? If you can study until you master the secrets of beguiling the minds of men, why can't you train until you can balance on the clouds? In the real world, studying doesn't make you a badass. It mostly doesn't even let "you" build cool stuff individually. But in D&D it does. If we're lifting the restriction that says "no matter how many books you read, you'll never be Dr. Strange" it seems like we should also be able to lift the one that says "no matter how many pushups you do, you'll never be Superman".

[Lord Raziere]

As an aside, I realize I was basically describing Azathoth with the "idiotic reality warper" thing lol. Knowing a complete idiot with barely any sense of self could mess with reality or cause untold amounts of destruction any random moment is much more terrifying to me than a smart, evil wizard that's able to play around with reality.

Aye. the smart one has restraint, and has to jump through hoops to get to the point where they can play around with reality, furthermore it implies that you can't make use of the reality warping without intelligence to guide it so that things actually happen, it means there are rules, limitations and such that require you the creativity to exploit them as long you know what they are. furthermore it means that the being is a person and is subject to the same flaws of any other person.

an idiotic reality warper on the other hand can't be reasoned with, has no restraint and doesn't need cunning or intelligence to make things happen, which means the rules of their warping are looser and cannot be predicted or planned for. after all, if this being can make things happen with idiotic aimless fumbling, thats more dangerous than someone needing specific rituals to make them happen and higher brain power to remember how to do them.

[Quertus]

I don't think external help (like WBL gear or GM fiat) truly count as a D&D character's true capability. They are, as stated, external/extra; on a no-gear plus high level situation, guess which archetype, warrior or spellcaster, is more toast.

The Wizard archetype is toast. Without wealth, both only equipped with the clothes on their back (free) and a free walking stick, the Fighter has a better chassis. Spell Component Pouch is part of WBL (no matter how small a part).

[AntiAuthority]

Aye. the smart one has restraint, and has to jump through hoops to get to the point where they can play around with reality, furthermore it implies that you can't make use of the reality warping without intelligence to guide it so that things actually happen, it means there are rules, limitations and such that require you the creativity to exploit them as long you know what they are. furthermore it means that the being is a person and is subject to the same flaws of any other person.

an idiotic reality warper on the other hand can't be reasoned with, has no restraint and doesn't need cunning or intelligence to make things happen, which means the rules of their warping are looser and cannot be predicted or planned for. after all, if this being can make things happen with idiotic aimless fumbling, thats more dangerous than someone needing specific rituals to make them happen and higher brain power to remember how to do them.

Such a person would be akin to a force of nature... Just Chaotic Stupid and with the power to help, hinder or do some third other thing with no rhyme or reason. The evil reality warper might at least be predictable on some level, not the idiotic reality warper who might accidentally hurt themselves just as much as anyone else lol.

This trope page sums it up...

---

The Wizard archetype is toast. Without wealth, both only equipped with the clothes on their back (free) and a free walking stick, the Fighter has a better chassis. Spell Component Pouch is part of WBL (no matter how small a part).

I wouldn't say they're toast. Yeah, they need spell components, but not all spell components have a listed price. Even for spells without such physical components you'd carry around in a pouch, it's possible to Time Stop, World Wave, use Energy Drain, cast Meteor Swarm, Elemental Body and other spells with just Verbal and Somatic components.

If we bring in the Pathfinder 1st Level spell Blood Money (which has a material component in the form of drawing your own blood and using them to replace components ranging from 500-999 GP per 1 Strength and 1 HP damage every set), they can perform these spells in exchange for HP and Strength Damage, combine that with Limited Wish to gain access to spells with material component cost for free (as long as the components are below 1000GP). With Limited Wish, they're now able to perform any 6th level or lower spell from non-Wizard spell lists in exchange for something they can sleep off (HP and Strength damage), assuming this is a Universalist Wizard. Even without Limited Wish, Blood Money can cover material components of higher level spells like Shapechange (1500 GP) for example

Besides, I don't think (correct me if I'm misunderstanding) Lucas Yew is saying, "No money ever." More I think they're in favor of giving classes like the Fighter class features that make them less gear dependent like needing magic boots to get up to a flying enemy and attack. Wizards aren't quite as gear dependent... Let's take a floating building or something for example, that's floating hundreds of feet above the ground. The Fighter's not getting up there through class features alone, and nothing in the Fighter's class features are going to let them get up there... They need magic boots (created by someone else) to get up there without asking a magic user to help them. Any random commoner (even a child with no levels) who puts on these magic boots can fly, the boots are impressive, not the person wearing them so they're reliant on these boots to fly. A Wizard could just go around asking butchers if they can pluck feathers from some chickens, look around the area for dead birds or something... Or use Commune with Birds to ask birds if they can have some of their wing feathers to cast Fly (normal or Mass), Cloud Shape to slowly float up there, Angelic Aspect to fly up there, Overland Flight to fly up there, or Winds of Vengeance to get up there without using components beyond verbal and somatic. This isn't including spells with material components that would be easy to come by or don't have a set price (like gauze as part of Gaseous Form or bird feathers for Fly, I doubt gauze is expensive and bird feathers can be found in nature or at a farm or butchery) so wouldn't be a drain on the Wizard's resources except for what the DM decides these things are set at, or a Wizard could just craft flying boots for 4000 if they don't feel safe being able to fly whenever they want because of limited spell slots, while a Fighter needs to spend 8000 to buy magic boots to emulate a class that gets this thing from simply leveling up. Technically you could also use Elemental Body and turn yourself into an air elemental to fly up to the floating building, the only material component is air (which is everywhere). If a Fighter has magic boots, yay... What about the rest of the party getting up to this floating building? Say about 4 party members total, that's 40,000 GP... While a Wizard can let all of them fly for a few wing feathers they might or might not have found lying on the ground/convinced some charitable birds to part with through Mass Fly. All this is based on Pathfinder 1E, as I'm the most familiar with that system, if that makes a difference compared to D&D 3E.

This might have gotten confusing, but basically, "Casters get another (free to technically free (is air free if it's a component?) to so low in price it doesn't mattet etc.) dimension of movement from just leveling up, while Warriors need to invest in gear in order to get another dimension of movement... Or ask a magic user to cast a spell on them, instead of being able to do so through being a high level Fighter." That's how I interpreted it anyway.

Sort of like how this comic page here demonstrates it.

[Psyren]

Moreover, D&D (any edition) is a game. A game. Meant to be played for fun-it is NOT meant to simulate reality. It does attempt to maintain verisimilitude, because consistency generally helps people get invested, but even if you say "By logic and realism, Magic should be better!" who cares?

The "force equality because fun" argument doesn't make sense to me. The only real way we have to measure that most people are having fun with a particular design is its popularity, and spellcasting being superior to not-spellcasting has not harmed the popularity of any edition of the game. In fact, the one edition that did come the closest to forcing this equality between casters and not-casters ended up being the most reviled of them all, and led directly to the birth of D&D's biggest competitor.

Like I mentioned earlier, Goku and Superman have godlike strength and endurance despite being unblessed, non-magical mortals (unlike their inspirations), Flash has godlike speed despite being a mortal (unlike his inspiration of Hermes), so taking inspiration from their abilities, but not their race, makes sense.

The reason people bring race into this discussion is because folks like Goku and Superman would most accurately be represented in D&D terms via a template of some kind, or at the very least an ancillary power source like Mythic. No human, no matter how long he trains, can become an alien like a Saiyan or Kryptonian - and even in their own universes, humans equaling the potential of one is nigh-impossible without some kind of external force.

As for Flash - in addition to the scientific aspects of his origin (i.e. external due to technology), he's empowered by what amounts to a divine force in the DCU (external again).

So... What about the wise idiots playing with reality like Druids and Clerics? They're Tier 1 too. Then there's the charismatic idiots like Sorcerers who are a lower tier but still messing around with reality.

There's no real reason to say Wizards should be better than Fighters because realism and intelligence and muscle training when dumb but charismatic people or dumb but wise people get be approaching or are on the same general level of power.

Wizards are the most common reference for these discussions because they are closest to Fighters in how they acquire power - i.e. purely by study and practice, without needing the favor of a higher power with its own agenda or via an accident of bloodline or circumstance. You're correct that a cleric or druid can approach a wizard in power without necessarily needing as much personal training, but they also have more restrictions as a consequence of - clerics and druids need to show piety and observe various practices regularly to keep their powers (to say nothing of alignment), while no amount of training will make you into a sorcerer or warlock if you aren't one. And the rarity of this kind of providence is borne out by the DMG Population Tables, in which sorcerers are among the least commonly-found classes in a typical city.

[Rater202]

The reason people bring race into this discussion is because folks like Goku and Superman would most accurately be represented in D&D terms via a template of some kind, or at the very least an ancillary power source like Mythic. No human, no matter how long he trains, can become an alien like a Saiyan or Kryptonian - and even in their own universes, humans equaling the potential of one is nigh-impossible without some kind of external force.

99.9% Of Goku's everything is pure martial arts training.

The reasons humans can't match Goku is becuase the humans don't spend all day every day training to get better.

Being a Saiyan is actually a very small part of what Goku does and he wouldn't have been strong enough to become a Super Saiyan int he first place without a lifetime of martial arts training.

And his greatest power, Autonomous Ultra Instinct, is explicitly something that literally anyone can do if they train enough and, if you didn't notice, is completely exclusive with his Super Saiyan forms.

(The Manga version of the Tournament of Power Arc explicitly states that Muten Roshi, a long-lived but otherwise normal human who has nothing by martial arts training, has almost achieved a passive, that is to say, better than Goku's, version of UIltra Instinct just from pure skill and experience.)

It's reasonable to assume that a human who trained to the same degree as Goku would have a similar degree of power.

[sorcererlover]

99.9% Of Goku's everything is pure martial arts training.

The reasons humans can't match Goku is becuase the humans don't spend all day every day training to get better.

hahahahahahahahahaha

You clearly haven't been on a DBZ board. Tien fans are crazy ******ed.

Tien trains harder and more than Goku because he doesn't have a Chi Chi forcing him to farm. Yet he is not even DBZ Frieza tier.

So no, 99.9% of Goku is his saiyan heritage.

[JNAProductions]

hahahahahahahahahaha

You clearly haven't been on a DBZ board. Tien fans are crazy ******ed.

Tien trains harder and more than Goku because he doesn't have a Chi Chi forcing him to farm. Yet he is not even DBZ Frieza tier.

So no, 99.9% of Goku is his saiyan heritage.

Then how come he was able to take on Semi-Perfect Cell and fight him to a draw, even for a little bit?

Frieza's weaker than Trunks.
Trunks is weaker than the Androids.
The Androids are weaker than Imperfect Cell
Imperfect Cell is weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell.

So, even if you rank Tien below Semi-Perfect Cell, he's still around the level of the Androids or Imperfect Cell, who can kick Frieza's tuckus.

Or, to put another way...

Power levels are bull. :P

[sorcererlover]

Then how come he was able to take on Semi-Perfect Cell and fight him to a draw, even for a little bit?

Frieza's weaker than Trunks.
Trunks is weaker than the Androids.
The Androids are weaker than Imperfect Cell
Imperfect Cell is weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell.

So, even if you rank Tien below Semi-Perfect Cell, he's still around the level of the Androids or Imperfect Cell, who can kick Frieza's tuckus.

Or, to put another way...

Power levels are bull. :P

I'll admit I haven't paid too much attention to Tien, because the debates get real ugly about what is anime and what is manga, what is canon and what is filler, does DBS use manga or anime canon, blah blah blah.

So I'll defer to your knowledge and say even if you are right, you can't deny that Tien trains just as hard as Goku if not more, and the power difference only grows between them. So Rater202 is wrong when he says Goku's race is not the biggest factor of his power growth and cap. It is his biggest factor. His training/genius sets him apart from other saiyans, but it is his race that sets him apart from earthlings.

Zamasu got most of his power from his race change to Saiyan.

[AntiAuthority]

So I'll defer to your knowledge and say even if you are right, you can't deny that Tien trains just as hard as Goku if not more, and the power difference only grows between them. So Rater202 is wrong when he says Goku's race is not the biggest factor of his power growth and cap. It is his biggest factor. His training/genius sets him apart from other saiyans, but it is his race that sets him apart from earthlings.

Zamasu got most of his power from his race change to Saiyan.

Yes and no. TL;DR at the bottom.

This is a condensed version of what I was thinking, but Goku's not that talented. By the standards of his own race, he's pretty weak (Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta). He only beat his stronger opponents through being a martial artist. By the standards of most aliens (possibly even some humans, read below if you're curious), he's not that talented. Even Namekian Warriors had a higher power level than Goku did in the beginning of Z, along with the average Frieza Force soldier. Especially not when compared to beings from other dimensions. If Goku just relied on being a Saiyan without using techniques or anything, he'd have died, he needs techniques (Vegeta was actually stronger than Goku in the Saiyan Saga, Goku needed to wreck his body with the Kaioken to keep up) and transformations (Frieza for example) to keep up with stronger enemies.

Goku wasn't worlds stronger than the humans until after he drank the Ultra Divine Water to unleash his potential to beat King Piccolo. Then he trained with Kami for three years and was able to beat Piccolo Jr. For sake of reference, when the humans trained with Kami with a power level around the same league as the one Goku had, they went in for 1/3 of the time and came out stronger than Raditz. If Kami had trained one of them instead of Goku, Piccolo Jr. would have been broken in half by any of the Earthlings if they bothered to drink the Ultra Divine Water to get on Goku's level and trained with Kami for 3 full years.

Goku has access to multipliers in the form of Super Saiyan... For some bizarre reason, neither he nor King Kai decided to teach humans how to do the Kaioken. There's also evidence that Tien and Krillin's base forms are stronger in the Cell Saga than Goku's Base Form (and likely Vegeta's) in the Super continuity based on what Beerus said to Goku... Now if they had access to the Kaioken to deal with the multiplier business...

Power scaling's weird and characters become as strong as they do because of the plot is the simple answer if you want to get down to it, but that's pretty much any story ever lol.

TL;DR: Goku got a bunch of advantages earlier than everyone else, and there's evidence that the human cast might be around the same level of talent (or possibly even more talented) than Goku is through how fast they gain power compared to him in the same situations, and might have remained relevant far longer if they did get the same advantages and trained more seriously (like learning the Kaioken or Special Beam Cannon and training like they knew the Saiyans or Androids were coming).