Belkar hate

[Rrmcklin]

Honestly, I don't even care enough about him to hate him anymore. He's just a boring character now, an evil murderer that no longer allowed to murder anybody because of an unearned redemption plot.

No one "earns" becoming a better person. It can happen for a variety of reasons, and in this case the most important one is "the writer wanted to write his story that way". You can debate whether he's doing a good job writing it, but I'm at a lose for how a character could "earn" an arc like this in the first place.

Redemption, the act of becoming better, and forgiveness, those you've hurt letting go and (maybe) accepting the new you are not the same thing. Although, you also can't "earn" forgiveness either. Becoming a better person by no means obliges anyone you've hurt to forgive what you've done in the past to hurt them.

[Aquillion]

That the thrall personality and greg are explicitly (as of the Q&A) different, so deciding that Greg is not the same entity as Durkon based on the thrall's actions is arbitrary and not logically founded, even if the conclusion happens to be correct.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Belkar's actions were based at least partially on emotion and gut instinct.

I would argue that Evil!Durkon's behavior when confronted was fairly out-of-character and that that served to confirm Belkar's initial emotional impulse, but that Belkar's poor communication and lack of trust with the rest of the party prevented him from articulating this - that is, the party just brushed it off as "everyone hates Belkar", but Belkar himself, having seen Durkon sacrifice his life for him and knowing the difference between the previous slapstick and this, would recognize on some level that Durkon's actions (ie. responding to the accusations with logical arguments that mostly dismissed rather than trying to sooth Belkar's concerns, followed by throwing him off the ship) were jarringly out of character. He might have had trouble putting it into words, but at that point it was more than just a gut instinct.

More importantly, though, the point is that everyone else's actions were based on gut instinct too (ie. nobody knew for sure how vampires worked.) Except debatably V, but that was obviously flawed in its own way; the rational thing to do would have been to send someone to quiz clerics about how vampires work without Durkon present.

I also somewhat disagree with the idea that the thrall being different makes their actions meaningless. The important thing from Belkar's perspective is that the thrall's actions underscore that vampirism is a big deal and not something that can just be brushed off.

Also, Evil!Durkon doesn't even mention this idea of vampire spawns being mindless separate entities. Nobody in the comic had any reason to suspect it. Belkar can't read Rich's comments and doesn't know how canon vampirism works (which I feel taints the perception of some viewers), so to him, Durkon's behavior is plenty reason not to trust him, and that's not an illogical stance given what he knows - certainly it's a reason to be skeptical of Roy's willingness to dismiss vampirism as not a big deal.

In fact, at the point where he would logically have made the argument you did, he instead goes for "jump overboard." Again, this comes down to the more serious problem that Evil!Durkon response to Belkar's accusations is logical quibbling rather than trying to soothe an obviously distressed friend, ie. he presents the bare minimum of arguments to answer Belkar's points, followed by tossing him off the ship. And that is a much more serious issue.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm sorry, but someone who literally wants nothing but sex and refuses to even do the basic courtesy of buying you a sandwich too is absolutely, undeniably a bad boyfriend.

Thank you for sharing your criteria. I think you missed the bit where I pointed out how I do not care for how Belkar treated her. In fact, I have in a variety of threads expressed my distaste for how Belkar responded to her welcoming attitude. (The sandwich episode)

But let's reset this conversation to zero for a minute.
I am an actual person, with a sister, who would not want someone like Belkar, to date my sister. In that way my attitude likely reflects Roy's In World distaste for the idea of Belkar being a dating partner for his sister.

You are an actual person.

Jenny is a person in a story.

In World, for whatever reasons, however mysterious or inexplicable they may be, Jenny sees it differently than you (or I) do.

I find it troubling that any number of those responding to the point I made, somewhat in jest, seem to be unable to separate real life from a comic.

Yours is not the first such response in this discussion, so please do not feel that this answer is all directed to your post. It is not. It is a repository for all of the responses that have blurred the line between RL and the In Fiction thing that a character did. My initial one liner was based on an In World context.

[Lvl45DM!]

I'd argue that Jenny thought he was good hook-up material, rather than good boyfriend material.

Has anyone read Cast in Shadow, by Michelle Sagara? The main character is a young police woman who grew up "on the wrong side of the tracks river", a lawless region ruled by crime lords. She lived there until she was 13, when she fled into another crime-lord's area where she lived for six months serving him, before crossing the river and attempting to assassinate one of the city's police chiefs. She failed, and joined the police force as a mascot for 5-6 years before being allowed to become an actual member of the force (rank: private). On several occasions she remarks that there is no justice, and she herself is part of the reason for it. She's done things she really can't be forgiven for (or tried for, as they occurred beyond the reach of the rule of law), and she can never make things up to those she hurt. But she still takes her job seriously, because she can try to bring justice to others, even if that justice will be incomplete.

Sounds like Angel.

200 years of murder rape and torture can never be atoned for. But you keep atoning anyway.

[GrayGriffin]

Thank you for sharing your criteria. I think you missed the bit where I pointed out how I do not care for how Belkar treated her. In fact, I have in a variety of threads expressed my distaste for how Belkar responded to her welcoming attitude. (The sandwich episode)

But let's reset this conversation to zero for a minute.
I am an actual person, with a sister, who would not want someone like Belkar, to date my sister. In that way my attitude likely reflects Roy's In World distaste for the idea of Belkar being a dating partner for his sister.

You are an actual person.

Jenny is a person in a story.

In World, for whatever reasons, however mysterious or inexplicable they may be, Jenny sees it differently than you (or I) do.

I find it troubling that any number of those responding to the point I made, somewhat in jest, seem to be unable to separate real life from a comic.

Yours is not the first such response in this discussion, so please do not feel that this answer is all directed to your post. It is not. It is a repository for all of the responses that have blurred the line between RL and the In Fiction thing that a character did. My initial one liner was based on an In World context.

I have no clue what "it's fiction" has to do with anything here. Someone who kills someone is a murderer. In fiction, a fictional person killing another fictional person is also called a murderer, in the context of the fiction. In the same way, there are signs beyond "a matter of taste" that make someone a bad boyfriend, whether it's in or out of fiction. Like seriously, "woman is attracted to guy who's obviously bad for her" is such a common fictional plot that it's really ridiculous to say that being a good or bad boyfriend is just "a matter of taste."

[factotum]

Like seriously, "woman is attracted to guy who's obviously bad for her" is such a common fictional plot that it's really ridiculous to say that being a good or bad boyfriend is just "a matter of taste."

It's also a fairly regular event in real life--how often do you read news reports about people marrying murderers who are in prison, or who keep going back to someone who regularly abuses them?

[Cazero]

In World, for whatever reasons, however mysterious or inexplicable they may be, Jenny sees it differently than you (or I) do.

Mysterious? Inexplicable? I don't think so.
She's a member of the Thieves guild of Greysky City. She only knows terrible people and stands alongside the worst of them. Her standards for "boyfriend material" must be pretty dang low. Like good kisser, or something in the bed. That's what boyfriends are for, right? The sexing only, because companionship doesn't exist?

[Fyraltari]

Thank you for sharing your criteria. I think you missed the bit where I pointed out how I do not care for how Belkar treated her. In fact, I have in a variety of threads expressed my distaste for how Belkar responded to her welcoming attitude. (The sandwich episode)

But let's reset this conversation to zero for a minute.
I am an actual person, with a sister, who would not want someone like Belkar, to date my sister. In that way my attitude likely reflects Roy's In World distaste for the idea of Belkar being a dating partner for his sister.

You are an actual person.

Jenny is a person in a story.

In World, for whatever reasons, however mysterious or inexplicable they may be, Jenny sees it differently than you (or I) do.

I find it troubling that any number of those responding to the point I made, somewhat in jest, seem to be unable to separate real life from a comic.

Yours is not the first such response in this discussion, so please do not feel that this answer is all directed to your post. It is not. It is a repository for all of the responses that have blurred the line between RL and the In Fiction thing that a character did. My initial one liner was based on an In World context.

Several things here.

First, if you agree that Belkar’s treatment of his partner is deplorable what exactly is your point of contention with those of us saying he isn’t fit to have any?

Second, what does Roy have to do with any of this? Roy never discussed the possibility of anybody dating Belkar. Roy being Julia’s older brother doesn’t give him any authority on who she dates.

(In fact nobody in-comic discussed anything like that but apparently Julia mentionning Belkar’s name is enough to get people to wonder wether she’ll fall for him. What that says about this forum I’m not sure but it ain’t exactly pretty.*)

Third, you seem pretty certain that Jenny did not mind Belkar’s lack of care (to the point of forgetting her name almost instantly) even though they have known each other less than a day and we don’t know what her opinion of him is since then.

Fourth, of course we all know that Belkar, Jenny and all the others aren’t real, but we judge fictional characters as if they were because a) that’s how empathy works and b) how could we possibly be invested in the story if we considered that nothing done in it mattered because it doesn’t happen to a real person?

*This isn’t directed at you in particular.

[Mox]

Malack ordered him not to drink all of it! - Belkar

Sorry I wasn't clear :
The argument "he said he wasn't the thrall" doesn't seem to hold (at least for me), because on the same strip, he says the order that Malack gave (to the thrall) waq given to him. ('He ordered me')

[Peelee]

It's also a fairly regular event in real life--how often do you read news reports about people marrying murderers who are in prison, or who keep going back to someone who regularly abuses them?

Someone winning the lottery is a fairly regular event in real life, but I wouldn't call it common.

Sorry I wasn't clear :
The argument "he said he wasn't the thrall" doesn't seem to hold (at least for me), because on the same strip, he says the order that Malack gave (to the thrall) waq given to him. ('He ordered me')

Ahhh, I getcha now.

[KorvinStarmast]

First, if you agree that Belkar’s treatment of his partner is deplorable what exactly is your point of contention with those of us saying he isn’t fit to have any?

I will repeat myself again, it seems, by necessity: some of the posters, in response to my one liner about Jenny, seem to be unable to differentiate betwen real life (we who post here) and a fictional character in the comic - Jenny - who seems to find Belkar eligible for her interest. Most (likely all) of us think he behaved to her in a bad manner. You ( a real person) made an absolutist statement. An in world character takes an opposing position. It isn't any more complicated than that.

I later explained why I think Rich may have dropped that in there - sometimes, people we know are attracted to jerks - but it may not have been that complicated. He may have dropped that in there simply to remind the audience that Belkar fills the role of "Jerk, Personified" in that part of the comic/story.
(Tarqin later fulfills the role of "Jerk, personified, but at a much larger scale" handsomely)

[Ruck]

There is in fact no indicator that Jenny considers Belkar "good boyfriend material."

[KorvinStarmast]

I am sorry: for Cazero:
The environment in Greysky City may be a factor: your thoughts on that are a reasonable inferences. We don't get much "Jenny character development" so we can only guess at that.

There is in fact no indicator that Jenny considers Belkar "good boyfriend material."

I have already addressed that elsewhere. I think that Greywolf mentioned that she might have just wanted a roll in the hay and nothing more. Possibly true. Yet even after Belkar does that ill mannered sandwich thing, she's smiling at him ande indicating a desire for more.

Note: she is not required to use someone elses's careless and ill defined terms "good boy friend material" to indicate her attraction to and interest in Belkar. (however ill advised) This attraction was demonstrated on screen in the cited comic, even though the cad did not offer her a sandwich. (Nor otherwise behave in a gentlemanly fashion)
Since you want to split hairs here: the post to which I responded offered no definition of "good boyfriend material" and as such it was a throwaway (rather like my initial reply)

The attempt here at hair splitting is not accepted as valid.

I smell glue, the horse is long dead.

[Fyraltari]

I will repeat myself again, it seems, by necessity: some of the posters, in response to my one liner about Jenny, seem to be unable to differentiate betwen real life (we who post here) and a fictional character in the comic - Jenny - who seems to find Belkar eligible for her interest. Most (likely all) of us think he behaved to her in a bad manner. You ( a real person) made an absolutist statement. An in world character takes an opposing position. It isn't any more complicated than that.

If that’s your issue, I assure you that no one here is under the delusion that the stick figures are real. And that you could think so from the posts in this thread is utterly bizarre.

I later explained why I think Rich may have dropped that in there - sometimes, people we know are attracted to jerks - but it may not have been that complicated. He may have dropped that in there simply to remind the audience that Belkar fills the role of "Jerk, Personified" in that part of the comic/story.
(Tarqin later fulfills the role of "Jerk, personified, but at a much larger scale" handsomely)

Nobody put that in question.

[GrayGriffin]

I will repeat myself again, it seems, by necessity: some of the posters, in response to my one liner about Jenny, seem to be unable to differentiate betwen real life (we who post here) and a fictional character in the comic - Jenny - who seems to find Belkar eligible for her interest. Most (likely all) of us think he behaved to her in a bad manner. You ( a real person) made an absolutist statement. An in world character takes an opposing position. It isn't any more complicated than that.

I later explained why I think Rich may have dropped that in there - sometimes, people we know are attracted to jerks - but it may not have been that complicated. He may have dropped that in there simply to remind the audience that Belkar fills the role of "Jerk, Personified" in that part of the comic/story.
(Tarqin later fulfills the role of "Jerk, personified, but at a much larger scale" handsomely)

Dude, all we're saying is that this fictional character is, in the story, not good boyfriend material. Heck, in your second paragraph you're happy to call him "jerk, personified." Isn't whether or not someone is a jerk just as much of a matter of taste as whether or not they're good boyfriend material?

[CriticalFailure]

this is the longest conversation i've ever read about whether a serial killer would make a good boyfriend

[Quizatzhaderac]

Unimportant point: While Belkar handled the sandwich thing in the worst possible manner, remember that he hadn't been able to properly keep a meal down for...
assume OotS world is the same size as earth; compare the world view from 639 to the southern continent map showing Sunken valley and Greysky; divide by overland travel speed for Haley...
80 days. He really did need that second sandwich much more then Jenny. Rich probably didn't do an exact time calculation, and the mark of justice probably allows you to digest something, but Belkar had clearly gone past "hangry" to "legitimate medical concern".

[factotum]

I think the scene as shown was clearly some time *after* Belkar had recovered from the Mark, and given the...ahem...activity he'd been involved doing, I'm pretty sure he was adequately well fed at that point.

[Peelee]

this is the longest conversation i've ever read about whether a serial killer would make a good boyfriend

Can I sig this?

[hroþila]

Next on the OotS forum: Does Haley like money?

[Jasdoif]

Next on the OotS forum: Does Haley like money?

Money in the abstract, or only as coinage?

[Cazero]

Money in the abstract, or only as coinage?

By coinage, do you mean real, solid metallic coins, or the fake pretend coinage made of paper?

[hroþila]

I had underestimated you guys, I'm impressed.

[Jasdoif]

By coinage, do you mean real, solid metallic coins, or the fake pretend coinage made of paper?

Hmm...I suppose she didn't say specifically, but she did say she valued the shininess of gold pieces.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Money in the abstract, or only as coinage?

She definitely loves the coinage more. The physical presence of the money is a constant reminder of the security and freedom it provides, as well as the successes that led to it.


On a related note, what happened to the black dragon's hoard?

It gold combustible in OotS world?
Did Haley remember it was there but was physically dragged off by Miko before she could retrieve it? f so will she go back for it at some point.
Did the owner of the inn find it? And if they abandoned the rubble is it still there?
Did it turn into a gold elemental because _{something, something} magic?

[Kantaki]

On a related note, what happened to the black dragon's hoard?

Considering the size of that boom the gold probably rained down all over the general area.
So, I guess there might've been a small gold rush.

[Quebbster]

Considering the size of that boom the gold probably rained down all over the general area.
So, I guess there might've been a small gold rush.

I guess that's where the gold adventurers find after defeating random encounters come from... Various explosions.

[Peelee]

I guess that's where the gold adventurers find after defeating random encounters come from... Various explosions.

.....headcanon'd.

[Emanick]

I think the scene as shown was clearly some time *after* Belkar had recovered from the Mark, and given the...ahem...activity he'd been involved doing, I'm pretty sure he was adequately well fed at that point.

Given that Belkar had been specifically craving a sandwich for ages, and that the sandwiches had just arrived, I think the implication is that he was specifically waiting for those sandwiches to eat. Belkar probably has a very high Constitution score, and he didn't seem too fatigued while fighting, so I'm guessing he wasn't in any immediate physical danger... but I do feel a bit more forgiving of him for the specific sin of eating both sandwiches after being reminded of how ravenous and underfed he likely was.

Of course, on Belkar's list of sins, "not sharing his sandwiches with his hookup" probably ranks as like #1,107,255 in significance, so that's not saying a lot.

[Aquillion]

The scene was obviously just a gag to let readers know that Belkar was still a jerk and hadn't become a great person just because of his vision quest. I think people are overthinking it.

Also "good boyfriend" is a subjective judgment based on what people's desires and expectations are, but yeah, Belkar is a petty, selfish murderer so I can't imagine very many people would consider him a great catch... although it's also true that he's changed a bit over time, with some of his more recent scenes implying a degree of ability to care (not just this one but, maybe more importantly, his rejection of the gnome saleslady earlier, which implied he felt guilty for cheating her and would feel even more guilty in that context.)