[GUIDE] Inquisitor Lim's Miniguide to the Evoker

[LudicSavant]

If you're building your character to use that feature, you're screwing your character up. A purple rating is appropriate. I might even rate it red, since it encourages you to make suboptimal decisions.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. What "suboptimal decision" do you think it's encouraging? Taking Toll the Dead over Fire Bolt or Acid Splash? That's not a suboptimal decision at all, as the math demonstrates.

If anything, it seems like you're doing precisely the thing you're concerned about, except with EE: You appear to be foregoing demonstrably better cantrip options just because they don't work with Empowered Evocation.

A section talking about what countermeasures an evoker might expect against their magic missile of doom, and what countermeasures the evoker can take in turn, would also be very appreciated.

I've been over this before. And I will pretend that the magic missile of doom doesn't exist.

I'm sorry, but I will not humor a tactic, especially one with an unimaginative justification like 'but, Jeremy Crawford said'that has a high probability of getting someone labeled as a rules-lawyer munchkin.

Apologies if I'm misreading the tone here but it seems needlessly hostile, especially since you seem to be humoring something that's completely against the rules (Hex + Magic Missile) but not something that is supported by the rules.

It's an unfair representation of the case to say that people think it works that way just "because JC said" or because they're "unimaginative." Many people already thought it worked that way because the PHB said, have thought so since the PHB was released, and at some point someone asked JC if they were reading it right, and he confirmed the pre-existing expectation matched his.

The implication that some DMs allow Hex bonus damage (which is supposed to work only when an attack hits, excluding Magic Missile) but not Hexblade's Curse bonus damage (which is supposed to add to every damage roll, including Magic Missile)... that is interesting.

Yeah, that seems pretty strange to me.

Someone nerfing the MM combo I can certainly understand. The idea that Hex+MM is somehow more valid just seems bizarre to me.

[Corran]

Can you clarify the point about "hiding your miniature"? Maybe in general clarify what you are looking for besides ways to get out of the blast zone?

The idea is that our evoker will be using something like sickening radiance and our allies will aim to fight inside that area. If the enemies engage in melee it will be good because they'll take damage (assuming every ally of ours is relatively tanky to be able to stay long enough inside that area; less pressure on that if we are using overchannel), and if the enemies don't engage in melee it will be beneficial because we assume that the pc's have the upper hand in ranged combat. Obviously this will not work for every encounter, and it requires some degree of optimization (for example, allies with warlock dips are much preferable to barbarians), and there are ways for it to backfire (eg if the enemies can grapple or throw nasty AoE's). But before anything else, it is our own evoker that sabotages the plan here, as the idea is to not provide targets outside our spell's AoE, and we can't have our evoker inside it in the first place. So that's why I was trying to think of a way to make the evoker not targetable, at the very least by melee attacks. And ideally I would like to have a way that would work even when fighting in very tight spaces too, cause that could be another good opportunity for throwing down a sickening radiance.

Point of order: LudicSavant essentially means "one who is learned about games." "Ludic" by itself just means "of or relating to games." If you're going to give LudicSavant a nickname it should probably be Savant instead of Ludic, otherwise it won't make sense. : )

Ah, I see. In my mind, ''LudicSavant'' was like saying ''NickSavant'', because ''Ludic'' sounds like an eastern European name to me.

I've been over this before. And I will pretend that the magic missile of doom doesn't exist.

Fair enough. I read the guide (haven't gone into the spells yet) when it first came out, and I didn't remember that.

[MaxWilson]

IMO Potent Cantrip + Thunderclap is actually pretty good against mobs, especially for an armored wizard (like LudicSavant's Nuclear Wizard) who can afford to mix it up in melee if he wants to. Sometimes it's just fun to toss on a Blur spell and detonate 3d6+INT damage on four or five orcs per round, and it's nice not to have to worry about some of them potentially making their saves and getting off scott-free, significantly increasing how long it takes to kill them all. It becomes sort of a small, fun, free mini-Fireball to which your allies BTW are still immune. Furthermore LudicSavant is right about Toll the Dead: Potent Cantrip does make it do more damage than Fire Bolt in many cases.

Potent Cantrip is definitely good for something besides Acid Splash.

I'm not a huge fan of Create Bonfire though even with Potent Cantrip because it has such a small AoE and it takes concentration.

The idea is that our evoker will be using something like sickening radiance and our allies will aim to fight inside that area. If the enemies engage in melee it will be good because they'll take damage (assuming every ally of ours is relatively tanky to be able to stay long enough inside that area; less pressure on that if we are using overchannel), and if the enemies don't engage in melee it will be beneficial because we assume that the pc's have the upper hand in ranged combat. Obviously this will not work for every encounter, and it requires some degree of optimization (for example, allies with warlock dips are much preferable to barbarians), and there are ways for it to backfire (eg if the enemies can grapple or throw nasty AoE's). But before anything else, it is our own evoker that sabotages the plan here, as the idea is to not provide targets outside our spell's AoE, and we can't have our evoker inside it in the first place. So that's why I was trying to think of a way to make the evoker not targetable, at the very least by melee attacks. And ideally I would like to have a way that would work even when fighting in very tight spaces too, cause that could be another good opportunity for throwing down a sickening radiance.

Hmmm. The thing that confused me is that this goal here (avoiding melee attacks) doesn't really have anything at all to do with Sculpt Spells. Even if Sculpt Spells does protect the caster, you still need a way to avoid being attacked in melee, or else you risk losing concentration. All Sculpt Spells does is add another layer of deterrence, "if you charge up to me you risk taking radiant damage and exhaustion". The only way to definitely, for sure avoid melee attacks is what you already said--not to be there--but I think safety is not what you're really looking for--I think your real goal is probably to force melee enemies into a position where they voluntarily run into the Sickening Radiance for lack of a better option (instead of chasing after a fleeing spellcaster).

So the question then becomes, how to make that unprofitable for them, and force them to stay in the Sickening Radiance AoE for as long as possible while keeping yourself as safe as possible? The ideas that come to mind are:

(1) First and foremost, positioning. Your goal is to be standing somewhere where you're not in the Sickening Radiance, but anyone who could attack you in melee is. Move to a corner or behind a chokepoint blocked by another PC, before casting Sickening Radiance. With any luck there may be difficult terrain or previously-laid caltrops or other PCs threatening melee attacks to make charging up to you an even more difficult proposition, but the Sickening Radiance itself adds another layer of deterrence.

If you can't arrange this, then at least make it so that anyone who wants to attack you this turn has to run through the Sickening Radiance in order to get to you.

(2) Poor man's alternative to positioning: strong Con saves. If you play a Yuan-ti Evoker with Resilient (Con), for example, your odds of not taking damage from your own spell are pretty decent, and your odds of not losing concentration are also pretty decent. You can drop Sickening Radiance on your position with at least high probability that you won't break your own concentration by failing your own save against it.

Furthermore, even with the worst Concentration saves in the world, at least you've got one full round before Sickening Radiance starts to affect you: the spell will hit you at the beginning of your next turn.

(3) If you play a Goblin Evoker trained in Stealth, then after you cast Sickening Radiance you can Hide.

(4) You can become an unattractive target in all the usual ways: have high AC, be Dodging, someone casts a Sanctuary spell on you, an Arcane Archer protects you with a Beguiling Arrow, etc.

[Evaar]

I've been over this before. And I will pretend that the magic missile of doom doesn't exist.

I'm sorry, but I will not humor a tactic, especially one with an unimaginative justification like 'but, Jeremy Crawford said', that has a high probability of getting someone labeled as a rules-lawyer munchkin. You deserve better than that. Most tables I played at wouldn't allow this, even those who actually read Sage Advise, and for good reason. Just pretend that a 3rd-level Magic Missile with Empowered Evocation at INT 20 does 5d4+10 damage and things will be fine.

I think it’s fine to describe in your guide why you think most DMs will houserule the MMOD out of existence and even to warn against using it too much due to its spotlight stealing potential.

But it’s not accurate to portray it as a completely unreasonable interpretation of the rules without Crawford’s say so. I posted about this in another thread where people were disputing its legality.

Alright, let's back up.

Magic Missile being one damage roll for all darts wasn't in question until someone said there was an errata that changed it. The errata was posted and it, in fact, does not change anything about how Magic Missile works. Then the individual made a post about how they run things at their table, which isn't really relevant, so I pointed out that it wasn't relevant and that the rule about Magic Missile being one damage roll stands.

Now people are saying Crawford's clarification of RAW doesn't apply to Magic Missile, even though he is specifically addressing Magic Missile, because the rule he cites mentions Fireball and Flame Strike.

So here's the rule:


Note how it doesn't say "it deals damage in an area." It says "deals damage to more than one target at the same time." Magic Missile explicitly meets that definition, as the spell states "The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several." The rule gives two example spells, but just because you can point out ways those spells are different from Magic Missile doesn't change the rule - similarly, the rule also doesn't only apply to spells that deal fire damage, even though both of the example spells deal fire damage.

So intuitively you might think it shouldn't be that way, and you don't want to rule it that way. You might even say there's some ambiguity, because Nuclear Wizard focuses all the missiles on one target so technically it's not striking more than one target, so in that specific scenario it doesn't work, even though Crawford has explicitly said it does. That's fine, it's your game, your table. But in threads like this one, it's really only relevant to discuss RAW and, where RAW is ambiguous, to go for the most authoritative ruling we can get. Because it's kind of impossible and pointless to make and share builds assuming a bunch of house rules. Unless you're the Sorcerer King, I suppose.

By RAW, Nuclear Wizard works.

[Corran]

I think your real goal is probably to force melee enemies into a position where they voluntarily run into the Sickening Radiance for lack of a better option (instead of chasing after a fleeing spellcaster).

Exactly.

(1) First and foremost, positioning. Your goal is to be standing somewhere where you're not in the Sickening Radiance, but anyone who could attack you in melee is. Move to a corner or behind a chokepoint blocked by another PC, before casting Sickening Radiance. With any luck there may be difficult terrain or previously-laid caltrops or other PCs threatening melee attacks to make charging up to you an even more difficult proposition, but the Sickening Radiance itself adds another layer of deterrence.

This was my first thought too. Well, the choke point really, but I get that there are ways to improve on it (like the caltrops you mentioned). I can see this working well in most dungeons. We are already thinking under the assumption that the group of pc's has a strong collective ranged attack, so when there is no reason to press the attack (rush before the hostages get executed, or before the villain flees with the McGuffin, or before reinforcements arrive etc), we could always try to lure enemies back to this certain part of the dungeon where it would be suitable to use this plan (the alternative I see being that we could engage in a war of attrition, and again that's profitable because I am assuming that pc's are capable of regenerating health much faster than several enemies). Basically, I am interested to see how well I could make it work without relying on a choke point, cause if I've got the choke point I might not even have to rely on such a spell. Well, maybe for reducing the risk and consequently expediting the fight.

If you can't arrange this, then at least make it so that anyone who wants to attack you this turn has to run through the Sickening Radiance in order to get to you.

I am thinking more along the lines that if I can't prevent enemies from attacking me, or at the very least if I cannot prevent them from attacking me from inside my AoE, then I should use something else instead. Though perhaps I am setting a higher bar than I should here, and that may be because I don't value sickening radiance and dawn that much otherwise (and I could be wrong about that). I can't tell though if you are mentioning this for the sake of completion. Personally, I am still trying to figure out if I can translate sculpt SR/dawn and overchannel into an effective combat strategy that is not too niche, so that I include one of these spells in my list as an evoker in the first place. And not to make sure I get the best out of them after I have already included them.

(2) Poor man's alternative to positioning: strong Con saves. If you play a Yuan-ti Evoker with Resilient (Con), for example, your odds of not taking damage from your own spell are pretty decent, and your odds of not losing concentration are also pretty decent. You can drop Sickening Radiance on your position with at least high probability that you won't break your own concentration by failing your own save against it.

Furthermore, even with the worst Concentration saves in the world, at least you've got one full round before Sickening Radiance starts to affect you: the spell will hit you at the beginning of your next turn.

I had to check sickening radiance again, cause I thought it deals half damage on a failed save (also, I am assuming that exhaustion happens only after a failed save, which may be ambiguous). Now I see why dawn might justify a higher level slot, cause the movement alone (considering the change in timing for the saves) didn't cut it for me before. Yes, the odds are not bad. Btw, this is probably the idea I was looking for. How important do you think having an ally with access to warding bond would be in that case?

(3) If you play a Goblin Evoker trained in Stealth, then after you cast Sickening Radiance you can Hide.

I also like this a lot. Would you bother with the skulker feat?
Being around to throw a dispel magic (or better yet, a counterspell that wont get countered) should I need to (if for example an enemy casts their own AoE to force my allies out of SR's AoE) could be very useful.

(4) You can become an unattractive target in all the usual ways: have high AC, be Dodging, someone casts a Sanctuary spell on you, an Arcane Archer protects you with a Beguiling Arrow, etc.

Yes, anything that adds up will be useful. In the case of the goblin if stealth fails, in the case of the yuan-ti (who might stay inside their own AoE) so that we reduce the risk of losing concentration and dropping unconscious.

[TheUser]

You're missing the Dawn spell in your level 5 spells breakdown; big oof from me dawg.

Apart from that this is great; entirely endorsed and gets my seal of approval.

[HappyDaze]

I've enjoyed using Potent Cantrip with acid splash and thunderclap (with Sculpt Spell allowing one ally a free out from thunerclap) on a hobgoblin evocation school wizard that gets in close thanks to medium armor and a shield (had 13 Dex, Moderately Armored gained me a lot here).

[MaxWilson]

Exactly.

This was my first thought too. Well, the choke point really, but I get that there are ways to improve on it (like the caltrops you mentioned). I can see this working well in most dungeons. We are already thinking under the assumption that the group of pc's has a strong collective ranged attack, so when there is no reason to press the attack (rush before the hostages get executed, or before the villain flees with the McGuffin, or before reinforcements arrive etc), we could always try to lure enemies back to this certain part of the dungeon where it would be suitable to use this plan (the alternative I see being that we could engage in a war of attrition, and again that's profitable because I am assuming that pc's are capable of regenerating health much faster than several enemies). Basically, I am interested to see how well I could make it work without relying on a choke point, cause if I've got the choke point I might not even have to rely on such a spell. Well, maybe for reducing the risk and consequently expediting the fight.

I am thinking more along the lines that if I can't prevent enemies from attacking me, or at the very least if I cannot prevent them from attacking me from inside my AoE, then I should use something else instead. Though perhaps I am setting a higher bar than I should here, and that may be because I don't value sickening radiance and dawn that much otherwise (and I could be wrong about that). I can't tell though if you are mentioning this for the sake of completion. Personally, I am still trying to figure out if I can translate sculpt SR/dawn and overchannel into an effective combat strategy that is not too niche, so that I include one of these spells in my list as an evoker in the first place. And not to make sure I get the best out of them after I have already included them.

I had to check sickening radiance again, cause I thought it deals half damage on a failed save (also, I am assuming that exhaustion happens only after a failed save, which may be ambiguous). Now I see why dawn might justify a higher level slot, cause the movement alone (considering the change in timing for the saves) didn't cut it for me before. Yes, the odds are not bad. Btw, this is probably the idea I was looking for. How important do you think having an ally with access to warding bond would be in that case?

I also like this a lot. Would you bother with the skulker feat?
Being around to throw a dispel magic (or better yet, a counterspell that wont get countered) should I need to (if for example an enemy casts their own AoE to force my allies out of SR's AoE) could be very useful.

Yes, anything that adds up will be useful. In the case of the goblin if stealth fails, in the case of the yuan-ti (who might stay inside their own AoE) so that we reduce the risk of losing concentration and dropping unconscious.

As a Yuan-ti Resilient (Con) Evoker using Overchanneled Sickening Radiance: access to Warding Bond might be the difference between blowing a DC 20 concentration save and succeeding on a DC 10 one. Otherwise I'm relying almost purely on my ability to beat my own spell save Con DC. I think it would be helpful but not essential, especially if I had Bless--wouldn't stop me from trying the tactic if I didn't have Warding Bond, but if someone in the party could pre-cast Warding Bond it would be a good investment in spell slots and I would be dumb not to request it.

As a Goblin Evoker, would I take Skulker? Yes. There are DMs who run games for which Skulker wouldn't be valuable, but I probably wouldn't want to play a goblin in those games in the first place. Skulker takes everything fun about being a goblin and turns it up to 11. Not only would I abuse Skulker hiding in conjunction with Sickening Radiance, I'd abuse it constantly on every turn when my bonus action isn't busy with e.g. Hexblade's Curse. Normally the worry you have with Skulker is "won't they just target the rest of the party?" but Sculpt Spells (Sickening Radiance) takes care of that. (There are other ways to take care of it too including being way in front of the party as their stalking horse.)

But there are downsides to Goblin too, notably that if you roll an even-numbered Int like 15, taking Goblin + Skulker puts you still at 17 when a variant human Evoker would be at Int 20 (plus a feat). At level 11 when the human gets access to Empowered Evocation + Hexblade's Curse Magic Missile V for 7 x (d4+9) = 80 auto-damage, you're only doing 7 x (d4+7) = 66 damage, and your spells like Sickening Radiance are correspondingly weaker. Would that stop me? No. I'd rather have a versatile, fun no-concentration at-will ability from level 1 onwards than have a temporary damage advantage. But I'd still feel better about playing a goblin if I had rolled an even Int, hopefully at least Int 16, instead of an odd one.

Note that I'd be taking advantage of other fun goblin abilities too, like zipping into the middle of a clump of bad guys to cast Potent Sculpted (Empowered?) Thunderclap before bonus action Disengaging back out (or Hiding if it's dark, and then moving away because being hidden also protects you from opportunity attacks).

Edit: comment on including Sickening Radiance in your combat list in the first place. I think you definitely want to do this because lots of creatures are resistant or immune to fire damage. I would hate to rely on something like Fireball to fight off a bunch of Shadows or Specters, for example, but Sickening Radiance does the trick nicely, even if they try to strafe you (hiding on the other side of walls when it's your turn). Normally I'd want at least one good non-fire-based AoE on a wizard PC for this reason, and Evard's Black Tentacles and Sickening Radiance would both be good candidates, but for an Evoker Sickening Radiance is clearly preferable. Fireball is still cheaper, higher-damage, and non-concentration of course.

Edit2: maybe it's obvious but as a goblin I'd also learn Longstrider because Nimble Escape + higher movement is another way to buy time for Sickening Radiance to kill, especially against monsters with blindsight, like Shambling Mounds and Blights, which Skulker won't help with. Of course you may not need it because Shambling Mounds and non-Needle Blights are already slow--depends on the situation.

Edit3: another fun thing for a Goblin Skulker to do when not throwing spells, is to throw nets/lassos. You have advantage for being hidden before you throw. You *don't* have disadvantage for being within 5' of a non-incapacitated hostile creature who can see you, because you're hidden. You attack at advantage, with proficiency because Hexblade 1, and if you miss you're still hidden because Skulker. Very resource-efficient, good alternative to cantrips.

[Corran]

I did a quick search to see if there are any ways to get resistance to radiant damage (relevant to using sickening radiance or dawn as a yuan-ti evoker and choosing to stay inside the AoE). The only thing of use to us is apparently a magic item called ring of radiant resistance (other options that don't really help us, were aasimar, totem barb 3, fiendlock 10 and transmuter 2).

As a Yuan-ti Resilient (Con) Evoker using Overchanneled Sickening Radiance: access to Warding Bond might be the difference between blowing a DC 20 concentration save and succeeding on a DC 10 one. Otherwise I'm relying almost purely on my ability to beat my own spell save Con DC.

That's a small number, but I was also thinking of our hp.

Spoiler: panic

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After some napkin math (assuming a hexblade 1 dip, and a 4 round encounter, calculating at cl 7 and 15 where getting hit by our SR is at its worst due to low hp and overchannel; each hit takes away about 1/3 of our hp; also I am assuming I'll succeed on concentration checks), there's a 42% chance we'll get hit once, 21% for 2 hits, and 5% for 3 or more hits, if we succeed on our concentration checks, which is something that we actually want). That's beside whatever damage we might take from the enemies. And I am thinking that if I am using my concentration (and overchannel at higher levels) for AoE damage, I better be doing it against enemies that hit hard. Bottom line, I think our hypothetical hp under that scenario need a boost. Otherwise we might be faced with the scenario where we are considering voluntarily dropping concentration on SR (possibly during a fight where it's pulling its weight), or more likely with using a dimension door to get to safety (which uses slots of the same level, and takes away actions we could be using against the enemies during subsequent rounds). So...

I think it would be helpful but not essential, especially if I had Bless--wouldn't stop me from trying the tactic if I didn't have Warding Bond, but if someone in the party could pre-cast Warding Bond it would be a good investment in spell slots and I would be dumb not to request it.

Spoiler: panic continues

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… I don't actually disagree with what you are saying. We have many things going for SR already to abandon it. After all, we always have the option to drop concentration or to teleport to safety. I guess bless would work too (better than WB probably, assuming committing concentration to it is not a huge deal for the caster). So would a paladin's aura (and lay on hands) or bardic inspiration and a good combat healing spell like heal. I am wondering though if you factored in the hp cost, and if not, I am wondering if the goblin stealthy approach (I am thinking that truesight/blindsight/etc is usually reserved for monsters that don't come in numbers) starts seeming like the more reliable one (cause my first instinct was that the yuan-ti that stays inside the AoE was the better option, but now, without additional support on my hp and or saves from allies, I am doubting it).

We've got good defenses. Advantage on saves and a good effective AC plus extra low level slots per day. The chances of what I am fearing regarding staying inside the SR's AoE are relatively small (quite small once I factor in concentration after taking damage from SR).

fun with goblins

I've been thinking. Dawn interacts with overchannel better than SR (thanks to half damage on failed save). Do you think it's worth to wait for dawn and skip SR completely, assuming you are playing with spells slots? Naturally, picking dawn instead of SR means less points for the yuan-ti that stays inside the AoE, and more points for a goblin that hides outside of it.

Edit: comment on including Sickening Radiance in your combat list in the first place. I think you definitely want to do this because lots of creatures are resistant or immune to fire damage. I would hate to rely on something like Fireball to fight off a bunch of Shadows or Specters, for example, but Sickening Radiance does the trick nicely, even if they try to strafe you (hiding on the other side of walls when it's your turn). Normally I'd want at least one good non-fire-based AoE on a wizard PC for this reason, and Evard's Black Tentacles and Sickening Radiance would both be good candidates, but for an Evoker Sickening Radiance is clearly preferable. Fireball is still cheaper, higher-damage, and non-concentration of course.

That makes sense. I was speaking hastily there.

Edit2: maybe it's obvious but as a goblin I'd also learn Longstrider because Nimble Escape + higher movement is another way to buy time for Sickening Radiance to kill, especially against monsters with blindsight, like Shambling Mounds and Blights, which Skulker won't help with. Of course you may not need it because Shambling Mounds and non-Needle Blights are already slow--depends on the situation.

With disengage as a bonus action at-will? Definitely. Longstrider would actually be useful anyway assuming a party with good ranged attacks, which is important to put sculpt SR/dawn to good use.

Edit3: another fun thing for a Goblin Skulker to do when not throwing spells, is to throw nets/lassos. You have advantage for being hidden before you throw. You *don't* have disadvantage for being within 5' of a non-incapacitated hostile creature who can see you, because you're hidden. You attack at advantage, with proficiency because Hexblade 1, and if you miss you're still hidden because Skulker. Very resource-efficient, good alternative to cantrips.

This is great. Wait... is there a concentration AoE evocation spell that targets dex saves?!!!
Nothing of real value as far as I can see. Best case scenario is combining this with wall of ice, but eh. Whirlwind would work nicely if it wasn't for the action economy clog. Shame...


Bonus question:

Spoiler: slightly off topic

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Say one of your players came to you and asked you for their evoker to research the anti-radiant version of absorb elements. And you know that this is not because for example the group is fighting an order of clerics or paladins, or a bunch of celestials, or for any other story related reason, but solely because the player was trying to do what we are discussing here, regarding the yuan-ti hexvoker that uses SR and stays inside the zone (I guess this is reason enough for the actual character to want to research some protection spell). Would you allow it, or do you think there is good reason that radiant resistance should remain a rare thing? And if you allowed it, what level would you have the spell be?

[MaxWilson]

Quick response, may edit to add later: I'm not actually very worried about needing to spend 4 rounds in an Overchanneled Sickening Radiance. That would require a bunch of enemies all with ~120+ HP each, in tight quarters where I myself have absolutely no option but to hide inside the Sickening Radiance and take it. Why am I not e.g. letting someone else cast Invisibility on me and then Hiding with my action on round 2?

If I did have to hide inside Overchanneled Sickening Radiance for extended periods without Bardic Inspiration/etc., yes, I'd worry about HP but I'd worry even more about exhaustion. Having failed three saves (5% chance) I'm now potentially at disadvantage on all rolls including saves, and half speed. Hopefully so are all the monsters, so at this point yes I absolutely would have already exited the Sickening Radiance via Misty Step/whatever, hoping that all of the surviving, half-speed monsters can be dealt with by the rest of the party.

Anyway, I'm not very worried that it would actually come to that, but the Goblin approach is absolutely more my style than the Yuan-ti approach. To my way of thinking, every time you rely on a saving throw to save you, you've already failed at least a little bit. Saves should be your last line of defense, not your first.

====================================

On a real computer now, adding more responses:

I did a quick search to see if there are any ways to get resistance to radiant damage (relevant to using sickening radiance or dawn as a yuan-ti evoker and choosing to stay inside the AoE). The only thing of use to us is apparently a magic item called ring of radiant resistance (other options that don't really help us, were aasimar, totem barb 3, fiendlock 10 and transmuter 2).

That's a small number, but I was also thinking of our hp.

Spoiler: panic

Show

After some napkin math (assuming a hexblade 1 dip, and a 4 round encounter, calculating at cl 7 and 15 where getting hit by our SR is at its worst due to low hp and overchannel; each hit takes away about 1/3 of our hp; also I am assuming I'll succeed on concentration checks), there's a 42% chance we'll get hit once, 21% for 2 hits, and 5% for 3 or more hits, if we succeed on our concentration checks, which is something that we actually want). That's beside whatever damage we might take from the enemies. And I am thinking that if I am using my concentration (and overchannel at higher levels) for AoE damage, I better be doing it against enemies that hit hard. Bottom line, I think our hypothetical hp under that scenario need a boost. Otherwise we might be faced with the scenario where we are considering voluntarily dropping concentration on SR (possibly during a fight where it's pulling its weight), or more likely with using a dimension door to get to safety (which uses slots of the same level, and takes away actions we could be using against the enemies during subsequent rounds). So...

Spoiler: panic continues

Show

… I don't actually disagree with what you are saying. We have many things going for SR already to abandon it. After all, we always have the option to drop concentration or to teleport to safety. I guess bless would work too (better than WB probably, assuming committing concentration to it is not a huge deal for the caster). So would a paladin's aura (and lay on hands) or bardic inspiration and a good combat healing spell like heal. I am wondering though if you factored in the hp cost, and if not, I am wondering if the goblin stealthy approach (I am thinking that truesight/blindsight/etc is usually reserved for monsters that don't come in numbers) starts seeming like the more reliable one (cause my first instinct was that the yuan-ti that stays inside the AoE was the better option, but now, without additional support on my hp and or saves from allies, I am doubting it).

We've got good defenses. Advantage on saves and a good effective AC plus extra low level slots per day. The chances of what I am fearing regarding staying inside the SR's AoE are relatively small (quite small once I factor in concentration after taking damage from SR).

I've been thinking. Dawn interacts with overchannel better than SR (thanks to half damage on failed save). Do you think it's worth to wait for dawn and skip SR completely, assuming you are playing with spells slots? Naturally, picking dawn instead of SR means less points for the yuan-ti that stays inside the AoE, and more points for a goblin that hides outside of it.

That makes sense. I was speaking hastily there.

With disengage as a bonus action at-will? Definitely. Longstrider would actually be useful anyway assuming a party with good ranged attacks, which is important to put sculpt SR/dawn to good use.

This is great. Wait... is there a concentration AoE evocation spell that targets dex saves?!!!
Nothing of real value as far as I can see. Best case scenario is combining this with wall of ice, but eh. Whirlwind would work nicely if it wasn't for the action economy clog. Shame...

Bonus question:

Spoiler: slightly off topic

Show

Say one of your players came to you and asked you for their evoker to research the anti-radiant version of absorb elements. And you know that this is not because for example the group is fighting an order of clerics or paladins, or a bunch of celestials, or for any other story related reason, but solely because the player was trying to do what we are discussing here, regarding the yuan-ti hexvoker that uses SR and stays inside the zone (I guess this is reason enough for the actual character to want to research some protection spell). Would you allow it, or do you think there is good reason that radiant resistance should remain a rare thing? And if you allowed it, what level would you have the spell be?

Magic items... I'm not really into extrinsic boosters like magic items so no real opinion there. Ring of resistance sounds fine, cloak of elvenkind would be equally useful for goblins, but as a PC I'd be more excited to find a formula for Wands of Magic Missiles and start cranking out the wands. I don't actually want to Overchannel Sickening Radiance on myself often enough to make a ring pay off.

Spoiler: Absorb Elements

Show

As DM, if you wanted to re-research RAW Absorb Elements I'd call it natively a third-level spell, because it protects from five elements and also does some minor damage to the next guy you hit, which means that researching it as a first-level spell requires some pretty intense optimization--three successful weekly DC 21 Arcana checks. Like Shield, it's a very powerful spell: it's effectively permanent, no-concentration resistance to five whole elements, just for keeping the spell prepared. However, if you wanted to research a similar spell Absorb Radiance that works only against Radiance, I'd be fine calling that a first-level spell, so one weekly DC 11 Arcana check (in a level 1 research library) is all that's needed. If you tried to pack that into the existing Absorb Elements spell and protect against six elements I'd call that effectively a fourth-level spell, which would be four DC 14 checks to research as a fourth-level spell or four DC 26 checks if you tried to pack it all into a first-level spell slot. Four DC 22 checks if you tried to do it out of a second-level slot.

Basically you'd need to be a world-class spell hacker or the luckiest wizard alive to expand the existing Absorb Elements to cover acid/cold/fire/lightning/thunder/radiance.

I'm not super-impressed with Dawn, both because the ends-on-turn damage is easier to avoid (though still pretty decent if you're defending the party against melee enemies) and because it doesn't have the sweet, sweet, crippling effects that Sickening Radiance does. (It's kind of like a Slow spell with no save-every-round clause to end it.) The best thing about Dawn is the efficiency: if the party is kicking down doors and advancing through the dungeon, you can bring (Overchanneled?) Dawn along with you as you move, unlike Sickening Radiance. But it still only lasts a minute, and nothing is stopping you from sending a stalking horse ahead through the dungeon to kick in some doors and then fall back to prepared positions if they encounter heavy opposition... plus, it's fifth level, so it competes with Wall of Force/Animate Objects/Animate Dead V/Telekinesis/etc. for spell slots.

The save-for-half clause is nice too BTW against e.g. demons, could increase effective damage by about 50%, but still all else being equal I'd prefer Sickening Radiance. Cheaper + longer-lasting + more crippling beats more damaging + mobile in my mind.

RE: <<This is great. Wait... is there a concentration AoE evocation spell that targets dex saves?!!!>>

The point of restraining isn't so much the disadvantage on Dex saves, it's to (1) eat enemy actions trying to get out, (2) give advantage to other PCs attacking the creature, (3) buy more time for other PCs + potentially your (Overchannelled?) Sickening Radiance to kill the creature, without it doing anything in return. Hmm, I guess #1 and #3 are actually the same thing.

However, it is true that being restrained would impose disadvantage on saves against Fireball or Web/Evard's Black Tentacles (presumably cast by someone else since Mr. Goblin Evoker took Sickening Radiance instead), and that's not nothing. It's similar to granting advantage to the party Sharpshooter: worth doing.

BTW, technically Wall of Stone is a concentration AoE evocation spell that targets Dex saves, but I know it's not what you were really looking for. : )

One more comment on the Goblin Skulker Evoker thing: if you had a Goblin Skulker Moon Druid buddy with Pass Without Trace up life would be sweet! Good combo for a two-PC campaign.

[TheUser]

Quick response, may edit to add later: I'm not actually very worried about needing to spend 4 rounds in an Overchanneled Sickening Radiance. That would require a bunch of enemies all with ~120+ HP each, in tight quarters where I myself have absolutely no option but to hide inside the Sickening Radiance and take it. Why am I not e.g. letting someone else cast Invisibility on me and then Hiding with my action on round 2?

If Overchannel is on the table then you are not reliant on an ally at all as your simulacrum can cast level 3 invisibility on both of you.

[MaxWilson]

If Overchannel is on the table then you are not reliant on an ally at all as your simulacrum can cast level 3 invisibility on both of you.

You're not wrong, but blech, Simulacrum. I always overlook that spell because as DM I don't allow it in its RAW form.

Besides, a Simulacrum is still "someone else."

[TheUser]

You're not wrong, but blech, Simulacrum. I always overlook that spell because as DM I don't allow it in its RAW form.

Besides, a Simulacrum is still "someone else."

Incapable of learning, counts as a construct, a distinct lacking in autonomy and agency....it's more of a something than it is a someone as far as I am concerned :P

[Corran]

Anyway, I'm not very worried that it would actually come to that, but the Goblin approach is absolutely more my style than the Yuan-ti approach. To my way of thinking, every time you rely on a saving throw to save you, you've already failed at least a little bit. Saves should be your last line of defense, not your first.

I have to admit that I like the simplicity of the yuan-ti approach, always regarding the SR thing.
Recalculating the numbers and putting them in the correct perspective, the risk regarding everything, from duration, to hp and accumulating exhaustion, is pretty much minimal (at least as far as I understand). Even when overchannel kicks in, rearranging the feat order and prioritizing lucky to my last INT bump, brings the numbers almost back to where they were before overchannel. The biggest issue I see is if the enemies focus fire on us. I guess would could always try to dodge from round two. The goblin does not rely on saves, but it does rely on stealth and a lot more on positioning. So I see it as higher risk/ higher reward, but overall less reliable, cause it's very risky to pull this off with a goblin if say, you are facing melee cavalry on an open field, or if you are ambushed in a tight space. I can see some clear advantages that the goblin approach will have, for example being able to hide just after using a wall of force, or improved counterspelling while also having it easier to be within range, having a strong at will with the net, generally being able to disengage with a bonus action, etc, but in the end I think I am impressed with all the little synergies (SR not doing damage to us on round 1, no half damage on successful save, yuan-ti magic resistance and the build's generally good defenses, adding resilient con and eventually lucky -reserving the rolls for saves against OC SR and crits during this same fight- on top of everything else because we were already almost there so I keep thinking it's a shame not to give a small boost and use this approach; and for effectiveness of course sculpt and finally overchannel), which I think bring the risk (and thus probably the frequency we would have to deviate from the routine, say by moving out of SR's radius or by skipping using it for a day or two every once in a while to bring down any accumulated exhaustion) down to an acceptable level per my reading.

Spoiler: rant

Show

I have this thought in the back of my mind, that all this may be for naught. Combining every important evoker feature with the right spell and throwing all these bits of small synergies on top to make it work more reliably, even if this is (at most, due to bad lack leading to accumulated exhaustion) a 1/day thing, even if the enemies may have ways to ruin the plan of every pc being semi stationary, all this may be of little value simply because the effect does not really pull its weight. We basically end with an alternative version of spirit guardians. Improved significantly in some ways (more damage on average and more importantly with a greater radius), with some small but noticeable drawbacks (risk to damage yourself, damage is a lot more spiky). I am sure it will be good under the right situations, but honestly, at first glance (cause I haven't tested it), I would expect a bigger reward at the end of this whole optimization process, when you think that without any optimization you can just drop a wall of force or you get access to spells like forcecage and simulacrum.

Quick response, may edit to add later: I'm not actually very worried about needing to spend 4 rounds in an Overchanneled Sickening Radiance. That would require a bunch of enemies all with ~120+ HP each, in tight quarters where I myself have absolutely no option but to hide inside the Sickening Radiance and take it. Why am I not e.g. letting someone else cast Invisibility on me and then Hiding with my action on round 2?

Many more possibilities will open up once we start accounting for allies. Though I could justify bless coming from a paladin/hexblade2, I am less inclined to count on someone committing their concentration on invisibility. Maybe a twinned greater invisibility coming from a sorcerer ally would be a better easier for me to justify though.

If I did have to hide inside Overchanneled Sickening Radiance for extended periods without Bardic Inspiration/etc., yes, I'd worry about HP but I'd worry even more about exhaustion. Having failed three saves (5% chance) I'm now potentially at disadvantage on all rolls including saves, and half speed. Hopefully so are all the monsters, so at this point yes I absolutely would have already exited the Sickening Radiance via Misty Step/whatever, hoping that all of the surviving, half-speed monsters can be dealt with by the rest of the party.

If we cannot rely on sth like bless or bardic inspiration from allies, one option could be to take the lucky feat (I also assume resilient con). It drops the chance of accumulating exhaustion roughly to 4%. It would also help against crits, in the unlikely scenario we get critted during the fight we were using the overchanneled SR. I think the delay on the (second) INT bump is worth it for the yuan-ti build. And the low number of rerolls is not too bad considering our initial defenses (effective AC, saves, and to a lesser extent concentration).

Magic items... I'm not really into extrinsic boosters like magic items so no real opinion there. Ring of resistance sounds fine, cloak of elvenkind would be equally useful for goblins, but as a PC I'd be more excited to find a formula for Wands of Magic Missiles and start cranking out the wands. I don't actually want to Overchannel Sickening Radiance on myself often enough to make a ring pay off.

I am with you on the magic items. Crafting wands of magic missiles sounds like a very good use of coins.

Spoiler: wands of magic missile and the revolutionization of warfare

Show

Honestly, this sounds like something I might try incorporating in some campaign in some way. Magic research in the kingdom of X is close to finding a way of mass producing cheap wands of magic missile of doom. It will take them something like 1 year (subject to change) from the start of the campaign to pull it off, and say another year for enough soldiers to get trained in using them at least semi-effectively. The pc's start the campaign knowing nothing about this, and it is up to them if they'll try to get involved and how should they hear whispers of it. Otherwise, 2 years from the start of the campaign, the kingdom of X will start waging war and slowly become the empire of X, and the pc's just happened to live during a significant historical event. Or sth like that. Probably best for a spying type campaign. Might just have ignored a bunch of rules regarding magic item creation, but eh.

Spoiler: Absorb Elements

Show

As DM, if you wanted to re-research RAW Absorb Elements I'd call it natively a third-level spell, because it protects from five elements and also does some minor damage to the next guy you hit, which means that researching it as a first-level spell requires some pretty intense optimization--three successful weekly DC 21 Arcana checks. Like Shield, it's a very powerful spell: it's effectively permanent, no-concentration resistance to five whole elements, just for keeping the spell prepared. However, if you wanted to research a similar spell Absorb Radiance that works only against Radiance, I'd be fine calling that a first-level spell, so one weekly DC 11 Arcana check (in a level 1 research library) is all that's needed. If you tried to pack that into the existing Absorb Elements spell and protect against six elements I'd call that effectively a fourth-level spell, which would be four DC 14 checks to research as a fourth-level spell or four DC 26 checks if you tried to pack it all into a first-level spell slot. Four DC 22 checks if you tried to do it out of a second-level slot.

Basically you'd need to be a world-class spell hacker or the luckiest wizard alive to expand the existing Absorb Elements to cover acid/cold/fire/lightning/thunder/radiance.

Thanks for the detailed answer. Sounds very reasonable.

I'm not super-impressed with Dawn, both because the ends-on-turn damage is easier to avoid (though still pretty decent if you're defending the party against melee enemies) and because it doesn't have the sweet, sweet, crippling effects that Sickening Radiance does. (It's kind of like a Slow spell with no save-every-round clause to end it.) The best thing about Dawn is the efficiency: if the party is kicking down doors and advancing through the dungeon, you can bring (Overchanneled?) Dawn along with you as you move, unlike Sickening Radiance. But it still only lasts a minute, and nothing is stopping you from sending a stalking horse ahead through the dungeon to kick in some doors and then fall back to prepared positions if they encounter heavy opposition... plus, it's fifth level, so it competes with Wall of Force/Animate Objects/Animate Dead V/Telekinesis/etc. for spell slots.

I see. I have a hard time giving much weight to the exhaustion effect, simply because it takes so long to start making a difference. Maybe I just didn't have many long lasting fights so far. Would you change your mind if using spell points instead?

The save-for-half clause is nice too BTW against e.g. demons, could increase effective damage by about 50%, but still all else being equal I'd prefer Sickening Radiance. Cheaper + longer-lasting + more crippling beats more damaging + mobile in my mind.

50% increase is pretty significant though when it comes to concentration AoE. Spirit guardians is just a 33% increase when upcasting by 1 level, and it's not a bad spell at all (yes, for a cleric) to overcast. I am currently thinking that for a goblin playing with spell points I might go for it. Though again, this may just be because I don't usually have fights that last long enough to think that I would make something great out of the better duration and out of the exhaustion effect. It's also because I am oversimplifying all this and I am basically thinking that SR/dawn is a 1/day thing at most, which may be a mistake on my part (thinking again the example with the shadows/specters).

The point of restraining isn't so much the disadvantage on Dex saves, it's to (1) eat enemy actions trying to get out, (2) give advantage to other PCs attacking the creature, (3) buy more time for other PCs + potentially your (Overchannelled?) Sickening Radiance to kill the creature, without it doing anything in return. Hmm, I guess #1 and #3 are actually the same thing.

I get it. Sometimes I am easily tempted by a few points of extra damage without seeing the real potential. Disadvantage on the dex save would probably be something close to 8 extra points of damage to one target, while denying an enemy's melee attack might spare you from a lot more damage taken.

However, it is true that being restrained would impose disadvantage on saves against Fireball or Web/Evard's Black Tentacles (presumably cast by someone else since Mr. Goblin Evoker took Sickening Radiance instead), and that's not nothing. It's similar to granting advantage to the party Sharpshooter: worth doing.

Yeah, or setting up advantage against a priority target, agreed.

One more comment on the Goblin Skulker Evoker thing: if you had a Goblin Skulker Moon Druid buddy with Pass Without Trace up life would be sweet! Good combo for a two-PC campaign.

I get it(?), one pc nowhere to be found, so the enemies have to go through the sack of temp hp inside the SR. The lack of good ranged damage in this party scares me a little though.

[MaxWilson]

I have to admit that I like the simplicity of the yuan-ti approach, always regarding the SR thing.
Recalculating the numbers and putting them in the correct perspective, the risk regarding everything, from duration, to hp and accumulating exhaustion, is pretty much minimal (at least as far as I understand). Even when overchannel kicks in, rearranging the feat order and prioritizing lucky to my last INT bump, brings the numbers almost back to where they were before overchannel. The biggest issue I see is if the enemies focus fire on us. I guess would could always try to dodge from round two. The goblin does not rely on saves, but it does rely on stealth and a lot more on positioning. So I see it as higher risk/ higher reward, but overall less reliable, cause it's very risky to pull this off with a goblin if say, you are facing melee cavalry on an open field, or if you are ambushed in a tight space. I can see some clear advantages that the goblin approach will have, for example being able to hide just after using a wall of force, or improved counterspelling while also having it easier to be within range, having a strong at will with the net, generally being able to disengage with a bonus action, etc, but in the end I think I am impressed with all the little synergies (SR not doing damage to us on round 1, no half damage on successful save, yuan-ti magic resistance and the build's generally good defenses, adding resilient con and eventually lucky -reserving the rolls for saves against OC SR and crits during this same fight- on top of everything else because we were already almost there so I keep thinking it's a shame not to give a small boost and use this approach; and for effectiveness of course sculpt and finally overchannel), which I think bring the risk (and thus probably the frequency we would have to deviate from the routine, say by moving out of SR's radius or by skipping using it for a day or two every once in a while to bring down any accumulated exhaustion) down to an acceptable level per my reading.

Spoiler: rant

Show

I have this thought in the back of my mind, that all this may be for naught. Combining every important evoker feature with the right spell and throwing all these bits of small synergies on top to make it work more reliably, even if this is (at most, due to bad lack leading to accumulated exhaustion) a 1/day thing, even if the enemies may have ways to ruin the plan of every pc being semi stationary, all this may be of little value simply because the effect does not really pull its weight. We basically end with an alternative version of spirit guardians. Improved significantly in some ways (more damage on average and more importantly with a greater radius), with some small but noticeable drawbacks (risk to damage yourself, damage is a lot more spiky). I am sure it will be good under the right situations, but honestly, at first glance (cause I haven't tested it), I would expect a bigger reward at the end of this whole optimization process, when you think that without any optimization you can just drop a wall of force or you get access to spells like forcecage and simulacrum.

Many more possibilities will open up once we start accounting for allies. Though I could justify bless coming from a paladin/hexblade2, I am less inclined to count on someone committing their concentration on invisibility. Maybe a twinned greater invisibility coming from a sorcerer ally would be a better easier for me to justify though.

If we cannot rely on sth like bless or bardic inspiration from allies, one option could be to take the lucky feat (I also assume resilient con). It drops the chance of accumulating exhaustion roughly to 4%. It would also help against crits, in the unlikely scenario we get critted during the fight we were using the overchanneled SR. I think the delay on the (second) INT bump is worth it for the yuan-ti build. And the low number of rerolls is not too bad considering our initial defenses (effective AC, saves, and to a lesser extent concentration).

I am with you on the magic items. Crafting wands of magic missiles sounds like a very good use of coins.

Spoiler: wands of magic missile and the revolutionization of warfare

Show

Honestly, this sounds like something I might try incorporating in some campaign in some way. Magic research in the kingdom of X is close to finding a way of mass producing cheap wands of magic missile of doom. It will take them something like 1 year (subject to change) from the start of the campaign to pull it off, and say another year for enough soldiers to get trained in using them at least semi-effectively. The pc's start the campaign knowing nothing about this, and it is up to them if they'll try to get involved and how should they hear whispers of it. Otherwise, 2 years from the start of the campaign, the kingdom of X will start waging war and slowly become the empire of X, and the pc's just happened to live during a significant historical event. Or sth like that. Probably best for a spying type campaign. Might just have ignored a bunch of rules regarding magic item creation, but eh.

Thanks for the detailed answer. Sounds very reasonable.

I see. I have a hard time giving much weight to the exhaustion effect, simply because it takes so long to start making a difference. Maybe I just didn't have many long lasting fights so far. Would you change your mind if using spell points instead?

50% increase is pretty significant though when it comes to concentration AoE. Spirit guardians is just a 33% increase when upcasting by 1 level, and it's not a bad spell at all (yes, for a cleric) to overcast. I am currently thinking that for a goblin playing with spell points I might go for it. Though again, this may just be because I don't usually have fights that last long enough to think that I would make something great out of the better duration and out of the exhaustion effect. It's also because I am oversimplifying all this and I am basically thinking that SR/dawn is a 1/day thing at most, which may be a mistake on my part (thinking again the example with the shadows/specters).

I get it. Sometimes I am easily tempted by a few points of extra damage without seeing the real potential. Disadvantage on the dex save would probably be something close to 8 extra points of damage to one target, while denying an enemy's melee attack might spare you from a lot more damage taken.

Yeah, or setting up advantage against a priority target, agreed.

I get it(?), one pc nowhere to be found, so the enemies have to go through the sack of temp hp inside the SR. The lack of good ranged damage in this party scares me a little though.

In no particular order:

(1) I agree about ranged firepower. Having poor ranged firepower is the biggest Achilles Heel of druids, IMO, but it's so hard to fit all of the roles into a two-man party. In a two-man party I would probably take a second level of Warlock on the Hexblade (eventually) to pick up Eldritch Spear and Agonizing Blast, and then also Spell Sniper. There will be many cases where you can instead of stealth (Pass Without Trace, Earth Glide from an elemental, Dimension Door) to get close enough that you don't need to beat a longbow's range, but it still makes me feel better to be able to win an archery duel if need be. However, I would leave Charisma at its starting value (14ish probably, maybe 16) and still focus on maxing INT (eventually, by my fourth feat at Evoker 16/Hexblade 2) to maximize the effectiveness of my presumed bandolier of Wands of Magic Missiles which I ought to have created by then. If I did get into a long-range duel with e.g. a hobgoblin army, having that 4 x +8 for d10+2 attack that ignores partial cover, plus partial cover of my own from Mold Earth, plus healing from my druid buddy, is enough to make me confident that I'm not helpless in that scenario. In closer-ranged scenarios Evokers are fine.

(2) Speaking of closer-ranged scenarios... I wouldn't use Overchanneled Sickening Radiance (or Dawn) even against melee cavalry. There's too much risk they'll just ride out of range and wait out the spell, and now you've lost an Overchannel for nothing. Obviously a ranged-heavy party can make this painful for them, but in a ranged-heavy party they don't really need the Evoker to handle the melee cavalry anyway. Goblin is free to do whatever, whether that is getting out in front and Dodging to provoke attacks/buy time, or doing a Fog Cloud + Hide combo to try to make himself safe (plus by RAW at least provide advantage on ranged attacks out of the cloud, although in my game I don't grant advantage on ranged attacks to unseen attackers because it doesn't make any sense and makes it too easy to get ranged advantage), or chucking Fireballs whenever there's a particularly large cluster of cavalry all together, or pew-pewing away with cantrips. Could also Polymorph somebody into a Giant Ape and THEN start Dodging, or cast a Web and hide the whole party inside of it, to buy more time and make the cavalry bunch up for later Firebalsl, etc. Remember that you can always drop the Web by ceasing concentration at any time, even in the middle of an enemy's attack sequence e.g. if someone squishy has been Restrained by the web and you don't want the enemy to have advantage against them. Also remember that Webs create light obscurement so they synergize with your Skulker feat: cast Web on yourself and immediately Hide and move elsewhere within the Web, and you don't risk getting restrained until your next turn.

Fundamentally I'm comfortable just treating "melee cavalry in a wide-open field" as something out of scope for the goblin Hexvoker, but there are still a bunch of things you can do that would be fun even though it's off-specialty.

(3) My opinion on Dawn doesn't change with spell points. I habitually run spell points, although I allow two kinds: DMG spell points (which are more complicated at high levels because you have to still keep track of slots as well as spell points), and my smoothed-out version: https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com...iant-rule.html which just makes high-level spells outrageously expensive. DMG is more commonly chosen but if I were playing I'd probably prefer the other version just for the cognitive simplicity.

(4) Sickening Radiance doesn't really take that long to kick in. After one failed save, enemies have disadvantage on ability checks until you cease concentration. After two failed saves, they have halved move (and I don't need to tell you how great that is for a ranged-heavy party). After three failed saves, they have disadvantage on attack rolls. For a goblin relying on Stealth, even one failed save is pretty crippling: -5 to passive Perception, and any allies doing grapple/prone tricks have an even easier time taking opponents out of combat--even zombies will have a good chance of grappling, and that's true even after the enemy leaves the Sickening Radiance zone. If an enemy fails two saves, any melee enemy without at least 60' of movement is basically toast. If an enemy fails three saves, it's all over but the shouting even if they do have good ranged attacks. (I'm oversimplifying--some monsters like Krakens could still put up a good fight, especially if they target the Sickening Radiance caster to break concentration and end the exhaustion.)

The differences between Sickening Radiance and Slow are (1) Slow puts time pressure on the party to kill the monsters before effects wear off. With Sickening Radiance, time is purely on the PCs' side. (2) Con saves vs. Wisdom saves. Mostly a wash I guess although big tough brutes like Purple Worms are less vulnerable to Sickening Radiance. (3) Sickening Radiance is better at killing mobs, like whole battalions of Duergar cavalry in a confined space--again, in an open plain they'd probably just decline to engage. (4) Slow acts faster to (temporarily) disable big monsters. With Sickening Radiance you need to buy another round or two for the second-stage effects (halved movement) to kick in. Goes well with other delaying spells like Web, or tactics like Dodging.

Anyway, that's why I prefer Sickening Radiance over Dawn. It has more interesting synergies than just doing a bunch of damage. (Also, spells with only a 1-minute duration scare me a little because they're too easy to wait out. You can't even really pause to regroup and rethink your tactics, or the spell will run out before you've finished talking to each other.)

(5) "Is all this optimization even worth it?" That's why I wouldn't go the Yuan-ti route for just SR, or specifically get rings of radiant resistance. To me this whole Sickening Radiance thing is just a sideshow to use against mobs. I still fully expect to use nuclear Magic Missile when a nova is needed, invest in Planar Binding Invisible Stalkers/Earth Elementals/Efreets, etc. I don't even really care about the Overchannel thing although I would willingly use it with Sickening Radiance because it's pretty decent--better than Forcecage for dealing with melee mobs, even on open plains against cavalry. : ) Might get lucky and they'll just charge right in.

Anyway, the point is that against serious opposition, where it's about survival and not just earning XP, the game changes. I always have that change in the back of my mind unless I'm playing something deliberately simple like a Zealot.

BTW I acknowledge that Yuan-ti does have some real advantages when it comes to dealing with enemy mages (e.g. bunches of Neogi Masters slinging multiple upcast Hold Person spells every round), and also having good stats for warlocking. It's not completely Sickening Radiance-oriented and I would consider it for Hexvokering.

[TheUser]

You don't need to keep creatures inside of the Dawn spell...it literally has a 30ft Radius and can be moved with a bonus action; just keep dumping it on top of the monsters engaged in melee with your party and they are eat AoO's or spend their action disengaging and fleeing; win win situation as far as I am concerned.

Also in tight spaces sometimes you can't really get away from something 60ft wide....

[MaxWilson]

You don't need to keep creatures inside of the Dawn spell...it literally has a 30ft Radius and can be moved with a bonus action; just keep dumping it on top of the monsters engaged in melee with your party and they are eat AoO's or spend their action disengaging and fleeing; win win situation as far as I am concerned.

Also in tight spaces sometimes you can't really get away from something 60ft wide....

The movement thing is definitely still an issue. You only have so many opportunity attacks, and e.g. the melee cavalry from upthread could just goblin conga line you to death. They make N attacks per round on you, and all Overchannelled Dawn gets you in return is one opportunity attack. You might as well not even have Overchannelled it. At least Sickening Radiance would have forced N saves!

We know based on experience with Silence (40' diameter in 5e) that there are cases where Dawn could be useful because yes, sometimes PCs can grapple or move aggressively to block the exits and/or an enemy is physically too slow to move 30' - 60' even while Dashing. But it's still pretty niche.

[KorvinStarmast]

Link to the guide here

This guide has been a long time coming.

Based on the opinion of a player in our weekly group (he's playing an evoker, straight, not MC, and is at 7th level) the guide is insufferably long. TL/DR was his remark when I provided the link.

What plans do you have for a round of serious liposuction? I ask because you built this from "at table play experience" rather than White Board optimization. My first look at it found some nice nuggets.

As an aside: I am not sure that you wouldn't be better off naming this the Hexblade/Evoker guide, given your strong recommendation to build an evoker, from scratch, with an initial level in Warlock/HB.

[Deathtongue]

Treantmonk's latest video about how DPR-focused wizards suck and how DPR is a bad tool got me all salty. Especially because Tasha's, and to a lesser extent Wildemount and Xanathar's, made DPR-focused wizards much, MUCH more viable than they were at the start of this edition. To that end, I overhauled this guide and added a lot more. Big changes are:

• A cheeky title change.
• A shift in design philosophy from 'blasting' to 'DPR'. DPR now includes blasting, summoning, AND enabling. Blasting will still form the backbone of your DPR, especially as most tables won't tolerate you making twenty d20+4 attack rolls against a creature with an AC of 19 every round, but I wanted to broaden the horizons a bit. In the end, an enemy with 0 hit points is still one with 0 hit points.
• A brief history of the changes between 2E, 3E, 4E, and 5E with respect to monster hit points and why I think a lot of people miss how instantaneous and average DPR is a much more respectful first principle in 5E than it was in 3E/4E.
• Suggestion of wizard builds aside from Hexvokers. I think that as of Tasha's splashing levels of Sorcerer and Order Domain Cleric are now much more competitive and even in many cases superior to Hexvokers in the realm of DPR.
• Making it more Evoker-agnostic. There are some other really strong DPR-focused wizards who would pick the same spells Evokers would, like Theurgists and Necromancers. I changed up the spell ratings to assume that you're playing any kind of wizard that thirsts for DPR -- of course making dual-ratings for spells that change significantly in the hands of certain wizards. I found that this was most common with Evokers, so the guide uses them as a straw-model.

TO-DO:

• Magical items ratings. I talk a lot about the busted magical items Tasha's introduced, but didn't actually rate them individually. No matter, anyone can see how busted they are, it doesn't change the overall thrust of the guide.
• Additional builds and breakpoints, especially in late T2 and early T3.
• Things to put in a Contingency. Thinking of just copying from my Bladesinger Guide.
• Things to summon with Summon Greater Demon / Infernal Calling. I generally think Summon Whatever is better because they give you merely modestly worse DPR while being MUCH more sustainable, but there are certain wizards who can make casting those spells 95-100% safe if, again, the DM allows those broken Tasha's magical items.
• Additional tactics for Wizards in general. I definitely want to have sections on Tactical Light Usage, Avoiding Stealth Nerfs of Illusions, Combat Pre-Casting, and Tactical Door Usage for examples.

[Dork_Forge]

He makes a lot of... just silly claims (phew, managed to self edit that one!) the notion that damage is a bad tool is ridiculous. Damage is how you end 99% of encounters.

What's even more surprising is that he would make this claim after having made up his own {Scrubbed} damage threshold for effectiveness.

[Deathtongue]

Based on the opinion of a player in our weekly group (he's playing an evoker, straight, not MC, and is at 7th level) the guide is insufferably long. TL/DR was his remark when I provided the link.

What plans do you have for a round of serious liposuction? I ask because you built this from "at table play experience" rather than White Board optimization. My first look at it found some nice nuggets.

This reaction, and it's by no means the first, is why I changed Miniguide to Guide.

That said: I'm shooting for people who already have considerable experience at the tabletop and are looking for a way to marry up white room theorycrafting with RAI or the typical D&D metagame. It's not focused solely towards number-crunching nerds, which is why except in some cases where the devil is in fact in the details (like the Summoning Spells versus Disintegrate) I try to avoid numbers and stick to relative comparisons and possibilities.

But this guide was made with the expectation that the person reading this guide has played as or at least with blasters before. They may not consider themselves an optimizer, but they have thrown out a few Fireballs, felt excited for a few levels over how much better it is than Shatter/Thunderwave, yet have felt their effectiveness dwindle as the game goes on... to the point where they're nodding their head at people going 'actually, wizards focused on DPR are weak because the best spells like Shatter and Fireball and even Animate Objects are no match for crushing the encounter with Hypnotic Pattern or Wall of Force'. If you haven't given much thought to the D&D metagame beyond 'which spells should my blaster wizard pick', then this guide is going to be tl;dr. Why is this dude suggesting you pick weird spells like Dark Star and Create Bonfire and even Earth Tremor? But if you want to know WHY I think Disintegrate is kind of pants and why you should choose Summon Undead over Fireball, even if DPR is your pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, there's going to be some tl;dr -- especially if you haven't experienced the counterintuitive reality of being a DPR-Wizard firsthand. It'll just feel like I'm padding the guide, rather than just me getting straight to the 'use these spells, profit'.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Necro thread, arise! Thread re-opened with permission.

[MaxWilson]

But this guide was made with the expectation that the person reading this guide has played as or at least with blasters before. They may not consider themselves an optimizer, but they have thrown out a few Fireballs, felt excited for a few levels over how much better it is than Shatter/Thunderwave, yet have felt their effectiveness dwindle as the game goes on... to the point where they're nodding their head at people going 'actually, wizards focused on DPR are weak because the best spells like Shatter and Fireball and even Animate Objects are no match for crushing the encounter with Hypnotic Pattern or Wall of Force'. If you haven't given much thought to the D&D metagame beyond 'which spells should my blaster wizard pick', then this guide is going to be tl;dr. Why is this dude suggesting you pick weird spells like Dark Star and Create Bonfire and even Earth Tremor? But if you want to know WHY I think Disintegrate is kind of pants and why you should choose Summon Undead over Fireball, even if DPR is your pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, there's going to be some tl;dr -- especially if you haven't experienced the counterintuitive reality of being a DPR-Wizard firsthand. It'll just feel like I'm padding the guide, rather than just me getting straight to the 'use these spells, profit'.

FWIW, you've just sold me on reading it. Sounds like a fun read!

[ff7hero]

Oh, I saw this at a great time, since I'm currently in the pre-planning stage of building an Evoker myself. I'm working my way through it, but I wanted to pick a few nits while they were fresh in my mind.

First one is small, because it's more implied than stated, but the section for for Potent Cantrip and it's inclusion in the Cantrips section seems to imply Acid Splash is an Evocation spell, when it is actually Conjuration. Frostbite could probably replace it in the first section, and I think might warrant a mention in the Cantrips section as well.

The other one is in the section for Overchannel. You caution about the damage "unless you're using Warding Bond cheese." Assuming this just mean "casting Warding Bond on the Evoker" [1] this doesn't work anyway, and is actually a nonbo [2]. Warding Bond does it's thing by granting it's recipient Resistance, which Overchannel ignores, so both target and caster would take full Overchannel damage.

[1]As opposed to some combo involving Warding Bond I am not aware of.
[2]A combination of abilities which appear synergistic but are actually anti-synergestic. Rhymes with and opposite of "combo."

ETA: Since I started, might as well continue. From the Post Tasha's bit in the beginning of the Multiclassing section, this bit "This means that a DPR-Wizard can now not only only recharge their" seems to have an extra "only."

ETA 2, Electric Bugaloo: from the section on High Elves: "An extra wizard cantrip (unless you’re using that Unearthed Arcana psionics article) isn’t a killer app" I don't know what article this refers to and Google isn't helping. I don't see any replacement racial features for High Elves (or any races at all) in either "Psionic Options" (Psychic Warrior and Psi Knight) or in the (I think, it was #3) most recent Mystic article. This one I'm just curious about, because I'm a Psionics fanboy and thought I was aware of all of the Psionic UAs.

ETA3: "Crusher - Being limited to attack rolls makes it only really useful with Catapult and Magic Stone but those cantrips are also only really good at lower level anyway. " Catapult is a 1st level spell that forces a Dex save. This mistake is repeated in the analysis of Catapult, resulting in recommendations to use it with Hex or Spirit Shroud.

[estein]

Great guide, I am looking forward to combining elements of this and LudicSavant's Nuclear Wizard and Jorasco Physician in an upcoming campaign.

Just a quick note, for Mind Sliver, you have it dealing 1d4*tier damage, it's actually 1d6 damage and then the 1d4 penalty to saving throws.

[Deathtongue]

Guide updated per the comments in this thread.

I've been playing another Order Domain Cleric 1 / Evoker X, up to character level 11 from starting level 3. Game has frequent long rests -- I've never gone more than three encounters between long rests -- almost nothing in the way of magical items (the best drop we've had so far is a +1 Full Plate), standard point buy. No Wildemount or UA or any expansion material besides Xanathar's and Tasha's. Feats and multiclassing allowed.

Order Domain Cleric is an absolutely disgusting add-on. Better than even a level of Hexblade, which under Point Buy I won't be able to fit in until very late-game anyway. Dropping Fireballs or Melf's Minute Meteors to squeeze extra attacks out of the party's paladin not only makes my character really popular at the table but is also really strong. I'm tempted to use Feather Fall cheese to squeeze out even more attacks, but there's been no need for that yet. DM lets me not only use Voice of Authority with Sculpt Spells, but allows repeated taps of the effect with Melf's Minute Meteors.

[RogueJK]

I'm tempted to use Feather Fall cheese to squeeze out even more attacks

That could be pretty tough to set up. Feather Fall can only be cast as a Reaction "when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls". So you'd be dependent on your ally having the proper positioning to use their movement on their turn to walk off a ledge/cliff, and still be within range of an enemy to be able to make a weapon attack while falling (especially tricky if they're a melee fighter like your party's Paladin).

[Thunderous Mojo]

Dropping Fireballs or Melf's Minute Meteors to squeeze extra attacks out of the party's paladin

Technically Fireball should not trigger Voice of Authority.
Per the PHB pg 202:
RANGE
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.

Voice of Authority states:
VOICE OFAUTHORITY
1st-level Order Domain feature
You can invoke the power of law to embolden an
ally to attack. If you cast a spell with aspell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, that ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see.
If the spell targets more than one ally, you choose the ally who can make the attack.

The PHB uses the Fireball spell, (explicitly), to demonstrate that area effect spells in 5e do not target creatures directly, area effects, instead, Target the space of origin.

To pose a counterfactual implication: If Area Effects Spells did not explicitly target the space of the effect's origin, but instead targeted creatures directly, then one would be unable to cast Area Effect spells at the Interstices of the Game Board Squares...as most of the time, Creatures---Unlike Spells---are required to be in Board Squares.

Speaking purely factually: Deathtongue's Experience is due to a single campaign's, idiosyncratic, interpretations of the PHB targeting rules...(Which is the Table's Right to do!)...but, Gentle Reader, just be aware one should not presume this deviation from the text is universal.

In other words...a DM would be backed by RAW to state: "Sorry Fireballing your friends doesn't trigger Voice of Authority".

Bless would work..since it Targets specific creatures.

I'm not trying to start any beef...do what your group finds fun.

[Dork_Forge]

Technically Fireball should not trigger Voice of Authority.
Per the PHB pg 202:
RANGE
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.

Voice of Authority states:
VOICE OFAUTHORITY
1st-level Order Domain feature
You can invoke the power of law to embolden an
ally to attack. If you cast a spell with aspell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, that ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see.
If the spell targets more than one ally, you choose the ally who can make the attack.

The PHB uses the Fireball spell, (explicitly), to demonstrate that area effect spells in 5e do not target creatures directly, area effects Target the space of origin.

To pose a counterfactual implication: If Area Effects Spells did not explicitly target their space of origin, but instead targeted creatures directly, then one would be unable to cast Area Effect spells at the Interstices of the Game Board Squares...as most of the time, Creatures---Unlike Spells---are required to be in Board Squares.

Speaking purely factually: Deathtongue's Experience is due to a single campaign's, idiosyncratic, interpretations of the PHB targeting rules...(Which is the Table's Right to do!)...but, Gentle Reader, just be aware one should not presume this deviation from the text is universal.

In other words...a DM would be backed by RAW to state: "Sorry Fireballing your friends doesn't trigger Voice of Authority".

Blesswould work..since it Targets specific creatures.

I'm not trying to start any beef...do what your group finds fun.

I agree with your post, I just have a nagging feeling that Crawford tweeted that people hit by AOEs are targets at some point. I don't agree with that, but I feel like that was a thing at one point (tweets aren't official, just whatever that's worth).

[Thunderous Mojo]

I agree with your post, I just have a nagging feeling that Crawford tweeted that people hit by AOEs are targets at some point. I don't agree with that, but I feel like that was a thing at one point (tweets aren't official, just whatever that's worth).

This falls under Wittgenstein's criticism that natural language lacks precise clarity.

In other words, the designers of 5e needed a thesaurus.

Fireball Targets a space..Target here meaning the point of the spell's origin of effect...once the Fireball detonates...due to the vagaries of the English Language, one could also refer to those in the area of effect as "Targets".

Think of it this way...if a Military Force launches a Drone Strike to kill a particular person, let's call them Person 1, and in so doing also envelope Person 2, Person 3 and Person 4 in the blast...the Military that launched the attacks typically do not classify Persons 2+ as the Target, the Military refers to them as Collateral Damage.

To channel Monty Python: The people responsible for writing and editing the 5e rules should be sacked!

One of my dear friends, and player of 20 years in my game is an Editor;
She has edited pieces for the New Republic, for Literary Magazines, and for Medical Technical journals, and many other publications over her decades long career.

Her, Professional, opinion is the 5e rules represent a failure of editing...at all levels...the rules neither conform to Literary nor Technical Editorial standards...the 5e rules, editorially speaking...suck no matter the Editorial Lenses one uses to examine them.