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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Entelechist

    After the feedback provided I have done a massive rework of this subclass. I have left the original version at the bottom of this post to compare.

    Certain abilities were removed and used to create a 2nd Healing Rogue subclass. Found here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post24412279

    Rogues travel far and wide, in search of fortune and treasures. While traveling through such places, several rogues learned how to manipulate potential energies. In doing so, they gained the ability to supplement their prowess with new potent healing and combat abilities. Those that adhere to this archetype are "spiritual" healers, reiki practitioners, charlatan medics with hearts of gold and even some doctors in it purely for financial gain.

    Revelation

    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Medicine skill and with Cook's utensils, if you don't already have it. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those proficiencies.

    Additionally, you understand intrinsically how to maximize the restorative potential of any food you prepare. When using the Prepare Meals feature of the Cookís utensils, in addition to gaining 1 additional Hit Point per Hit Die rolled, you or anyone who partakes of the meal, can reroll any Hit Die used to recover hit points, but must use the new value rolled.

    Manipulation

    Starting at 3rd level, you also gain the ability to channel, manipulate and store potential energy. You gain a pool of Vitality dice equal to twice your Sneak Attack dice. This pool of Vitality dice increases as your level increases. You refill your Vitality pool on a long rest. Additionally, whenever you would deal Sneak Attack damage to a hostile creature in combat, you can choose not to roll any number of Sneak Attack dice to add an equal number of dice to your Vitality pool. If the rogue attempts to draw forth energy from intentionally attacking an ally, finds that the principles governing the flow of vital energy can be vindictive. Striking back at the rogue, dealing twice the maximum number of Sneak Attack dice as necrotic damage, yielding no Vitality dice. This damage ignores resistance and immunity.

    You are not able to store Vitality dice over your maximum number determined by your Vitality dice pool. At 9th level, once per Long Rest, whenever you would kill an enemy with your Sneak Attack, you can regain your maximum Sneak Attack dice in Vitality dice.

    Your ability to channel vital energy allows you to gain several new abilities. You can cast a limited number of spells by spending a number of Vitality dice and you unlock more spells, as your abilities improve. You are able to upcast these spells by spending the appropriate number of Vitality dice for the appropriate spell level.

    Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

    Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
    Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

    Spell level Vitality Dice Character Lvl Spells

    1st 2 3rd Guiding Bolt, Cure Wounds, Healing Word
    2nd 3 3rd Aid, Lesser Restoration
    3rd 5 5th Mass Healing Word, Revivify
    4th 6 7th Aura of Life, Aura of Purity
    5th 7 9th Greater Restoration, Holy Weapon, Mass Cure Wounds

    Luminous Strike

    Starting at 9th level, you learn how to charge your weapon with potential energy. As a bonus action, you may spend 1 Vitality die, to change any weapon(s)/ammunition you are holding in one or both hands with vital energy. For an hour, as long as you are holding these weapons, your attacks count as magical and deal radiant damage instead of slashing, piecing or bludgeoning. Ammunition and thrown weapons retain the charge long enough to strike/miss an indented target, unless they return to your hand(s) by the end of your turn.

    Whenever you use the Guiding Bolt spell, you can add your Intelligence modifier as a bonus to damage.

    Font of Life

    A healerís work is never done and on the battlefield, medics and healers are easy targets and eliminating them can swing the tide of battle in favor of the enemy. At 13th level, whenever you use your Uncanny Dodge class feature, you may heal yourself. You may roll up to Intelligence modifier in Vitality dice and restore the amount rolled to your hit points. You can only do this twice per Long Rest. At 17th level, you can do this up to 3 times per Long Rest.

    Life and Death Principle

    Starting at 17th level, your mastery over vital energies is complete. You gain two new abilities; Life and Death. You can use one or the other up to a total of your Intelligence modifier times per long rest.

    Life: You can immediately utilize the damaged life force of a target of your Sneak Attack, to bolster and strengthen you or your allies. Whenever you deal damage with your Sneak Attack dice, you can use your Reaction to give yourself or an ally within 30 ft equal to the amount rolled on the Sneak Attack dice as Temporary HP.

    Death: When an enemy dies from one of your Sneak Attack, you can spend your Reaction, to gather up the broken life energy of your enemy and use this energy to damage another enemy. Make an attack roll against a new target within range of your original attack. Ghostly figments of your attack heads toward the new target. You will utilize the same bonuses and penalties as the original attack, if this attack hits, roll the damage again number dice including Sneak Attack dice.



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    While discussing D&D yesterday with a friend of mine, we discussed the idea of a potential rogue archetype that specializes in healing and restorative abilites. We went back and forth on how could we make it work within 5e. He decided he would take the Arcane Trickster and retool the spell list and abilities to be able to cast healing spells. I decided on trying a different path. I liked the ideas I've come up with and I tried to avoid any potential and obvious abuses while trying to keep it's ability to heal on par with other subclasses that have been release. However, I'm not omniscient so would love some feedback, opinions, suggestions or ideas. Presenting the Reiki Shifu.


    Rogues travel far and wide and explore places such as the Feywilds and even the Plane of Life, in search of treasure and adventure. While traveling such locations, several rogues gained the ability to channel positive energy. After learning how to master these powers, they channeled this new ability to become incredibly potent healers.


    Chirurgeon
    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Medicine skill and with the Herbalism Kit, if you don't already have it. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those proficiencies.

    While using a Healerís Kit, you are able to enhance the kits ability to triage and treat damage.As an Action, you can spend up to your Intelligence modifier in charges from the Healerís Kit to heal 1d4+1 points of damage per charge. You are only able to do this up to your Intelligence modifier times per long rest.

    When you or your party take a Short Rest, you are able to enhance the abilities of a Healer's Kit to help triage and treat damage suffered by you or your party members. Whenever you or an ally would roll a Hit Die to recover HP, you are able to use a charge from the Healer's Kit to have that Hit Die roll the maximum number. You are only able to affect up to your Intelligence modifier number of Hit Dice per Short Rest. This ability does not interfere with your ability to recover during a short rest.

    Reiki

    Starting at 3rd level, you gain the learn to channel positive energy to both heal and inflict wounds. You gain a pool of d6 Reiki dice equal to twice your Sneak Attack dice. This pool of Reiki dice increases as your Sneak Attack dice increases. You regain any used Reiki dice when you finish a long rest.

    Additionally, whenever you would deal Sneak Attack damage to a hostile creature in combat, you can choose not to roll any number of Sneak Attack dice to add an equal number of dice to your Reiki pool. At 9th level, you regain your Sneak Attack dice as Reiki dice whenever you complete a short rest. At 13th level, whenever you Sneak Attack, you may regain 1 Reiki die. At 13th level, whenever you Sneak Attack, you may regain 3 Reiki die. At 17th level, whenever you Sneak Attack, you may regain 5 Reiki die.

    As a bonus action, you can heal one creature you can see within 60 feet of you, by spending dice from your Reiki pool. The maximum number of dice you can spend per heal is equals your Sneak Attack dice (minimum of one die). Roll the dice you spend, add them together, and restore a number of hit points equal to the total.

    Luminous Strike

    Starting at 9th level, you learn how to charge your weapon(s) with vibrant energy. As a bonus action, you can change any weapon(s) you are holding in one or both hands with radiant energy. As long as you are holding these weapons, your attacks count as magical and deal radiant damage instead of slashing, piecing or bludgeoning. Projectiles lose this energy once they strike their target.

    Font of Life

    Starting at 13th level, your ability to channel positive energy allows you to cast a limited number of Cleric and Paladin spells by spending an appropriate number of Reiki dice. You are able to upcast these spells by spending the number of Reiki dice for the appropriate spell level.

    Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

    Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
    Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

    Spell level Reiki Dice

    1st 2
    2nd 3
    3rd 5
    4th 6
    5th 7

    Your spells list: Guiding Bolt, Aid, Lesser Restoration, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Greater Restoration, Holy Weapon, Mass Cure Wounds and Raise Dead.

    You also gain the ability to use your Sneak Attack with the Guiding Bolt spell, all other requirements for Sneak Attack still apply

    Yin-Yang Principle

    Starting at 17th level, your mastery over vital energies is complete. You gain two new abilities; Yin and Yang. You can use one or the other up to a total of your Intelligence modifier times per long rest.

    Yang: You can immediately utilize the damaged life force of a target of your Sneak Attack, to bolster the strength of you or your allies. Whenever you deal damage with your Sneak Attack dice, you can use your Reaction to give yourself or an ally within 30 ft equal to the amount rolled on the Sneak Attack dice as Temporary HP.

    Yin: When an enemy dies from one of your Sneak Attack, you can spend your Reaction, to gather up the broken life energy of your enemy and use this energy to damage another enemy. Make an attack roll against a new target within range of your original attack. Ghostly echoes of your original attack rush toward the new target. Utilizing the same bonuses and penalties as the original attack, make a new attack roll. If this attack hits, roll the damage again number dice including Sneak Attack dice.
    Last edited by metalith; 2020-03-22 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Rework

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Rogue Archetype: Reiki Shifu. Opinions Requested

    Chirurgeon
    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Medicine skill and with the Herbalism Kit, if you don't already have it. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those proficiencies.

    While using a Healerís Kit, you are able to enhance the kits ability to triage and treat damage.As an Action, you can spend up to your Intelligence modifier in charges from the Healerís Kit to heal 1d4+1 points of damage per charge. You are only able to do this up to your Intelligence modifier times per long rest.
    An okay start, but I would instead make it more like "Once per short test, when using a healer's kit, the target gains hit points equal to your level in this class. No reason to go crazy here since you are adding other things later on.

    Reiki

    Starting at 3rd level, you gain the learn to channel positive energy to healing wounds. You gain a pool of Reiki dice equal to twice your Sneak Attack dice. This pool of Reiki dice increases as your Sneak Attack dice increases. You regain any used Reiki dice when you finish a long rest.

    Additionally, whenever you would deal Sneak Attack damage to a hostile creature in combat, you can choose not to roll any number of Sneak Attack dice to add an equal number of dice to your Reiki pool. At 9th level, you regain your Sneak Attack dice as Reiki dice whenever you complete a short rest. At 13th level, whenever you Sneak Attack, you may regain 1 Reiki die.

    As a bonus action, you can heal one creature you can see within 60 feet of you, by spending dice from your Reiki pool. The maximum number of dice you can spend per heal is equals your Sneak Attack dice (minimum of one die). Roll the dice you spend, add them together, and restore a number of hit points equal to the total.
    This is... complicated. I'll admit I don't know the reference, but why not just use a game term already established, Ki? And have it add Ki equal to half rogue level. Make it a Short rest resource, and at 13 have the character gain 1 when they sneak attack.

    The option to not hurt enemies to store healing for later is a tactically poor choice, although I see what you were attempting. It also fights with itself at higher levels.
    There is almost never a good reason to not take out a target, and this somewhat could lean into the classic bag-of-rats-problem, wherein you can keep not sneak attacking them to store up healing.

    No reason to have this be a 60ft range either, rogues are often within 30ft of allies and enemies, I would definitely take it down a notch for a bonus to a non-spellcaster class.

    If you took up my idea, I would change it to a bonus action heal a target for Xd6, where X is Ki spent. Again, this is with it as a short rest resource, which I think suites a rogue nicely.

    Luminous Strike

    Starting at 9th level, you learn how to charge your weapon(s) with vibrant energy. As a bonus action, you can change any weapon(s) you are holding in one or both hands with radiant energy. As long as you are holding these weapons, your attacks count as magical and deal radiant damage instead of slashing, piecing or bludgeoning. Projectiles lose this energy once they strike their target
    I like this, helps keep up combat wise for all the other things missed.

    If you wanted to add in more magic here, you could add in Guiding Bolt Int/short rest here, but I would keep it at level 1 casting. It would only be 1 dice weaker than a sneak attack, help allies, add free ranged attacks, etc.

    Font of Life

    Starting at 13th level, your ability to channel positive energy allows you to cast a limited number of Cleric and Paladin spells by spending an appropriate number of Reiki dice. You are able to upcast these spells by spending the number of Reiki dice for the appropriate spell level.

    Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

    Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
    Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

    Spell level Reiki Dice

    1st 2
    2nd 3
    3rd 5
    4th 6
    5th 7

    Your spells list: Guiding Bolt, Aid, Lesser Restoration, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Greater Restoration, Holy Weapon, Mass Cure Wounds and Raise Dead.

    You also gain the ability to use your Sneak Attack with the Guiding Bolt spell, all other requirements for Sneak Attack still apply
    Adding in 1/3rd casting at level 13 strikes me as odd. No one wants to wait for those kinds of things to come online, and they again feel complicated, why are we spending healing pool, our secondary resource on a tertiary thing? Don't add in spell casting so late to the game.
    This also feels like we would just make a "Divine Trickster" as your friend suggested and go that route. I don't think that's bad, for the record.

    I suggest improving the archetype in a new way. Try adding in a more common trait: "Whenever you heal a target with your Ki, you may also also cure one disease or a condition from the following list affecting the target: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned."
    I know it's not mechanically exciting, but those problems do pop up more at higher levels, giving our rogue a chance to help out more. Level 13 rogue abilities tend not to be outstanding as well, and this would add a lot.

    Yin-Yang Principle

    Starting at 17th level, your mastery over vital energies is complete. You gain two new abilities; Yin and Yang. You can use one or the other up to a total of your Intelligence modifier times per long rest.

    Yang: You can immediately utilize the damaged life force of a target of your Sneak Attack, to bolster the strength of you or your allies. Whenever you deal damage with your Sneak Attack dice, you can use your Reaction to give yourself or an ally within 30 ft equal to the amount rolled on the Sneak Attack dice as Temporary HP.

    Yin: When an enemy dies from one of your Sneak Attack, you can spend your Reaction, to gather up the broken life energy of your enemy and use this energy to damage another enemy. Make an attack roll against a new target within range of your original attack. Ghostly echoes of your original attack rush toward the new target. Utilizing the same bonuses and penalties as the original attack, make a new attack roll. If this attack hits, roll the damage again number dice including Sneak Attack dice.
    I like this. No real suggestions.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Rogue Archetype: Reiki Shifu. Opinions Requested

    I would suggest that Chirurgeon work like this:

    When you and your party take a short rest, choose a number of Hit Dice being rolled by you or another member of your party up to your intelligence modifier; instead of rolling these Hit Dice, they automatically score the maximum number on the die (plus the users Constitution modifier as normal). Each hit die affected in this way requires one use from a Healer's Kit.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Rogue Archetype: Reiki Shifu. Opinions Requested

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetakya View Post
    I would suggest that Chirurgeon work like this:

    When you and your party take a short rest, choose a number of Hit Dice being rolled by you or another member of your party up to your intelligence modifier; instead of rolling these Hit Dice, they automatically score the maximum number on the die (plus the users Constitution modifier as normal). Each hit die affected in this way requires one use from a Healer's Kit.
    I really like this idea. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Rogue Archetype: Reiki Shifu. Opinions Requested

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    An okay start, but I would instead make it more like "Once per short test, when using a healer's kit, the target gains hit points equal to your level in this class. No reason to go crazy here since you are adding other things later on.
    Well I was trying to avoid making this ability better outright in all ways then the Healer Feat. Since I wanted players who choose this archetype to still have reasons to want to get Healer feat if they choose to do so. Also for it to still be solid enough that in games where the DM does not allow feats to function. However, planning on replacing that section with the idea provided by the other responder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    This is... complicated. I'll admit I don't know the reference, but why not just use a game term already established, Ki? And have it add Ki equal to half rogue level. Make it a Short rest resource, and at 13 have the character gain 1 when they sneak attack.

    The option to not hurt enemies to store healing for later is a tactically poor choice, although I see what you were attempting. It also fights with itself at higher levels.
    There is almost never a good reason to not take out a target, and this somewhat could lean into the classic bag-of-rats-problem, wherein you can keep not sneak attacking them to store up healing.

    No reason to have this be a 60ft range either, rogues are often within 30ft of allies and enemies, I would definitely take it down a notch for a bonus to a non-spellcaster class.

    If you took up my idea, I would change it to a bonus action heal a target for Xd6, where X is Ki spent. Again, this is with it as a short rest resource, which I think suites a rogue nicely.
    I understand it's a little complicated. I was trying to avoid an outright Divine Trickster but as far as resource management goes, Rogues only really need to manage actions in combat and any items they are carrying. So taking inspiration from the Celestial Warlock I took an already established mechanic and gave it to this Rogue. The only problem was is that Warlocks also have spell casting and Eldritch Invocations to bolster and supplement their ability to heal/damage. Also as I was building this archetype I started feeling that this build leaned a little more towards ranged then melee. So tried to make it work with both in mind.

    I avoided using the name Ki since 5e have been more careful then previous editions in most cases avoiding to use the same term in multiple places to mean the same thing. Reiki being the term for "energy healing" practiced by several Eastern traditions, I felt most synergized with the goal for this class I had in mind.

    I understand your point but I wanted the pool to be large enough to be able to provide enough resources without running dry after 1 or 2 heals. An earlier version I had written at level 9, the player would get his Sneak Attack dice back as Reiki dice during a short rest. At 13, they would get back 2 Reiki dice every time they performed a Sneak Attack and at 17, they would get back 5 Reiki dice everytime they performed a Sneak Attack. However, I felt that would prevent most Rogues from trading since they would recoup enough Reiki die in other ways that is was unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    I like this, helps keep up combat wise for all the other things missed.

    If you wanted to add in more magic here, you could add in Guiding Bolt Int/short rest here, but I would keep it at level 1 casting. It would only be 1 dice weaker than a sneak attack, help allies, add free ranged attacks, etc.
    Thank you. I really liked it as well since during turns where the party does need heals, the rogue can still attack but what could this one do that was unique or enhanced by this archetype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    Adding in 1/3rd casting at level 13 strikes me as odd. No one wants to wait for those kinds of things to come online, and they again feel complicated, why are we spending healing pool, our secondary resource on a tertiary thing? Don't add in spell casting so late to the game.
    This also feels like we would just make a "Divine Trickster" as your friend suggested and go that route. I don't think that's bad, for the record.

    I suggest improving the archetype in a new way. Try adding in a more common trait: "Whenever you heal a target with your Ki, you may also also cure one disease or a condition from the following list affecting the target: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned."
    I know it's not mechanically exciting, but those problems do pop up more at higher levels, giving our rogue a chance to help out more. Level 13 rogue abilities tend not to be outstanding as well, and this would add a lot.
    Understood. I would have preferred to have added this sooner, but the archetype breakdown for rogue did not make that friendly enough. The level 3 and 9 ability came easy enough, however when I started writing up the level 13 mechanic, I realized that AoE healing, status issues, and reviving a dead ally were all lacking from this archetype. If this was the primary/only healer in the party, they needed the ability to do so. I tried to come up with ways to mimic this abilities but nothing I came up with worked how I liked and I remembered the Four Elements Monk ability to speak Ki points to "cast spells". I thought about adding this to the level 3 ability but at that point just make a Divine Trickster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    I like this. No real suggestions.
    Honestly this was the hardest part of the writing up the archetype. Since I liked what I had established earlier and felt completed at 13. After several hours I was like WTF is the capstone ability of this archetype should be and bounced around the idea of turning into a being of Radiant energy for a while but did not feel right.
    Last edited by metalith; 2020-03-11 at 08:29 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    The ability to not sneak attack to gain healing dice is broken.

    Attack for 1d4+3 damage, to gain 2d6 dice of healing. And it only gets worse.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Yeah, this is way too strong. You can heal allies for Xd6 hit points indefinitely as long as you keep hitting enemies. I'd cap it in a variety of ways- you can only heal up to INTd6 at a time, you can't expand the healing pool beyond your Rogue level (a lot easier than saying twice your Sneak Attack), and you only regain half your Rogue level in Reiki on a short rest.

    Level 9 is a bit odd because there's pretty much no reason to not leave it on all the time. I'd make it "you can spend one Reiki die to convert all Sneak Attack damage to radiant damage."

    Spellcasting at 13 is pretty odd. I definitely wouldn't allow 5th level spells when the Arcane Trickster just gets 4th at 17, and the spellcasting cost is definitely too low. Another issue is that you can basically cast Guiding Bolt indefinitely- 9-12d6 + advantage on the next hit keeps you going forever and that's really really good. I think I'd limit it to Lesser Restoration for 5 Reiki, Revivify for 7, and Greater Restoration for 11.

    Yang is fine but Yin is still a bit too strong. Not sure the best way to fix only the one.
    Last edited by Nidgit; 2020-03-12 at 12:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Worse-you can hit an ally for chip damage, then heal them for a lot more.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Worse-you can hit an ally for chip damage, then heal them for a lot more.
    Right. This is why I suggested a short rest pool resource, and I still honestly think slapping this much healing potential on a Rogue is a bit nuts. Maybe make it like a lay-on-hands thing.

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    For starters: you can ask for this to be moved to the Homebrew section. You seem to have a complete Subclass, so it'd be best to have it sent there.

    Second...I'll have to be the negative opinion on this Roguish Archetype. I see the possibility, and I'm rather excited at the possibility, but I feel the concept per se doesn't fit the Rogue. For starters - Reiki. Now, I don't mean anything against the practice, and there's the Samurai and Monk so there's an argument towards "Asian-flavor" classes and subclasses, but I don't think the subclass was meant for the Rogue; I'd think about it if it were made for the Monk, but as you may have seen, the Unearthed Arcana's Way of Mercy pretty much does that, and adds it a twist.

    Let's go bit by bit on the subclass itself:
    • Chirurgeon is fine, since it maximizes Short Rest healing.
    • Reiki just adds an astounding amount of healing. Even as a long rest recovery, you're dealing with about 10d6 dice worth of healing by level 9. That's roughly the same amount of healing as a Celestial Warlock or a Paladin using Lay on Hands (5 x level means that by level 9 you heal 45 HP with a single touch), and that by itself would be fine, mechanically speaking. However, it's the recharge feature (gain 1 die per every die of Sneak Attack you sacrifice) that bothers me, since it essentially means you're providing your allies with free and unlimited healing, and a huge amount at that. Again - 10d6 is comparable to a Celestial Warlock's healing, but the Celestial Warlock doesn't recover its healing dice until a long rest, whereas you can recover your entire pool in two turns if you choose to deal normal damage. Sure, the dice get more uses later on, but the fact that you're most likely spreading healing slowly and thus essentially modulating your damage to handle that healing is just absurd. And then you add the 13th and 17th level abilities which essentially mean free healing every turn...especially when your healing is a bonus action. It's undoubtedly the best healing in the game, bar none. Life Cleric? Shepherd Druid? Alchemist Artificer? Celestial Warlock? None can compare to your healing potential. Combined, this makes this class feature way too OP, particularly since by level 13 you can just heal every turn and still deal tons of damage; the healing is probably less, but you're still healing 10 to 11 hp every turn with barely any effort. It's too good to be true.
    • Luminous Strike is fair, mechanically speaking - it makes you deadly against most undead, since they're often vulnerable to radiant damage. Radiant Damage Sneak Attacks one-shotting undead creatures is just absurdly fun. Except...the charge is unlimited. Again, way too overblown IMO, but it's a nice move.
    • Font of Life is just insane. Guiding Bolt + Sneak Attack? As in, "I deal damage with a slightly lower attack bonus, deal solid radiant damage PLUS Sneak Attack, and the next attack is made at advantage, which means that if I keep hitting them, I always have Sneak Attack, not to mention that I eventually get infinite Guiding Bolts by level 13 because I recover three Reiki dice when I do this?" But not just that: Mass Healing Word? Mass Cure Wounds? Raise Dead!? Sure, you spend a bit of dice, but you get a lot of dice, you recover them with a Short Rest, and if you need them in combat, it's just one or two Sneak Attacks away. Again - not just infinite healing, but potentially infinite spellcasting.
    • Yin and Yang Principle is about the only other mechanically sound feature. If it weren't because I'm not a fan of the subclass, I'd actually...screw that, I like the whole mechanic. Yin as a secondary Sneak Attack is viable, it has a reasonable trigger (requires the first target to die in order to activate it, so it's sort of a Cleave/GWM mechanic) and requires another attack roll, which can be beneficial or hindering. That you can do it with the same bonuses (i.e. Advantage, most likely) makes it fair. Yang providing a ton of temporary HP is a definite lifesaver. Limiting it to your Int modifier is a clever tactic. That said: while I love the mechanic, I weep because I don't like the subclass, and thus it remains orphaned. But kudos on this last one - it's mechanically lovely.


    My main problem is that it's a concept that I feel doesn't fit the Rogue at all, and has two class features that are IMO way too overpowered because of semi-infinite resources. If I had an attraction to the subclass, I'd have suggested heavy nerfs, but unfortunately, they'd be heavy nerfs to a subclass that I feel can't fit the Rogue.

    Now, why do I say that I'm excited at the possibility? Look at your first subclass feature - Chirurgeon. The concept behind a chirurgeon should ahve been the subclass instead. Let me explain: rather than give it a supernatural concept that better fits the Monk, why not make it a mundane healer that also happens to be exceptionally good and skilled? Instead of giving it a name such as "Reiki Shifu" (also - isn't Reiki a modern Japanese practice, yet you're giving it the Chinese term for "master"? Sorry - that alone makes me shiver...), you could make it something more mundane and fitting, such as "Chirurgeon" or "Barber Surgeon". As a practitioner of combat medicine, you could do certain things:

    • For starters, as with Chirurgeon, using the healer's kit to restore hit points more times per day. The Healer feat allows you to do that already, but this could be a non-feat option for games that don't allow feats. You could start with 1d4 + Int modifier, since Rogues favor Intelligence, or 1d4 + Wis modifier, since the Medicine skill depends on Religion.
    • As part of a short rest, you can perform surgery. This allows you to remove a disease currently affecting the creature, as well as allowing you to spend your own Hit Dice to heal allies.
    • Eventually, allow the Rogue to use its Cunning Action to use a healer's kit to patch an ally as a bonus action, thus allowing you to heal AND strike at the same time.
    • Something like using contaminated knives, thus modifying your Sneak Attack. Since you know Medicine, you can essentially poison a creature and deal maybe extra poison damage. I could say "turn all your Sneak Attack damage into poison damage", but poison is highly resisted.
    • Finally, and this is what I should consider the capstone - a surgery to revive a fallen ally. The ally must have not died before the last day (to make it fair), and you must spend a long rest to attempt a revival. If successful, your ally revives, but with one or more levels of exhaustion and all pre-existing conditions. It would be a more limited form of resurrection, but it could be done (in theory) an unlimited amount of times.


    Of course, these are mostly ideas on how you can make a badass mundane healer, and since you're adding it to an already exceptional chassis like that of the Rogue, you could have a character that's a great healer while at the same time capable of contributing in other areas because of what it does. And it fits the Rogue concept of "can do multiple things". As a barber (which, in its inception as a "barber surgeon" was essentially one of the world's first example of a historically-accurate paramedic), you could even add unconventional weapon proficiencies to the list, or the ability to use weapons as makeshift healer's kits or somesuch. Plus, you'd also be capable of granting your allies the most awesome haircut ever.
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Worse-you can hit an ally for chip damage, then heal them for a lot more.
    That was one of the immediate abuses I attempted to quell when I realized while codifying this mechanic and tried to add wording that required you being in combat with a hostile target in order to be able to trade out dice. Since I saw people trying to break the mechanic by abusing it in that way. Any suggestions or idea of how to stop or prevent that?

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Second...I'll have to be the negative opinion on this Roguish Archetype. I see the possibility, and I'm rather excited at the possibility, but I feel the concept per se doesn't fit the Rogue. For starters - Reiki. Now, I don't mean anything against the practice, and there's the Samurai and Monk so there's an argument towards "Asian-flavor" classes and subclasses, but I don't think the subclass was meant for the Rogue; I'd think about it if it were made for the Monk, but as you may have seen, the Unearthed Arcana's Way of Mercy pretty much does that, and adds it a twist.
    Well, most people responding have had a negative opinion of the subclass so far, not so far off the course. :)

    Well, I decided on the term Reiki because I disliked the original term of pool of positive/vital energy dice. It was cumbersome and bland. I remembered that there are real word "Energy Healers" and most of them were things like Shamans/Wisemen/Wisewomen/etc. None of them felt right or inspiring until I came across Reiki. From the entomology of the word, most information I came across said it was a fusion of Chinese and Japanese terms. I originally was going to name it Reiki Master but if you are going for asthetic go for it 100% and it was a choice of Shifu vs Sifu if I was going for Asiatic terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Chirurgeon is fine, since it maximizes Short Rest healing.
    I really liked that suggest Zetakya's provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    [*]Reiki just adds an astounding amount of healing. Even as a long rest recovery, you're dealing with about 10d6 dice worth of healing by level 9. That's roughly the same amount of healing as a Celestial Warlock or a Paladin using Lay on Hands (5 x level means that by level 9 you heal 45 HP with a single touch), and that by itself would be fine, mechanically speaking. However, it's the recharge feature (gain 1 die per every die of Sneak Attack you sacrifice) that bothers me, since it essentially means you're providing your allies with free and unlimited healing, and a huge amount at that. Again - 10d6 is comparable to a Celestial Warlock's healing, but the Celestial Warlock doesn't recover its healing dice until a long rest, whereas you can recover your entire pool in two turns if you choose to deal normal damage. Sure, the dice get more uses later on, but the fact that you're most likely spreading healing slowly and thus essentially modulating your damage to handle that healing is just absurd. And then you add the 13th and 17th level abilities which essentially mean free healing every turn...especially when your healing is a bonus action. It's undoubtedly the best healing in the game, bar none. Life Cleric? Shepherd Druid? Alchemist Artificer? Celestial Warlock? None can compare to your healing potential. Combined, this makes this class feature way too OP, particularly since by level 13 you can just heal every turn and still deal tons of damage; the healing is probably less, but you're still healing 10 to 11 hp every turn with barely any effort. It's too good to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    [*]Luminous Strike is fair, mechanically speaking - it makes you deadly against most undead, since they're often vulnerable to radiant damage. Radiant Damage Sneak Attacks one-shotting undead creatures is just absurdly fun. Except...the charge is unlimited. Again, way too overblown IMO, but it's a nice move.
    Thanks
    [*]Font of Life is just insane. Guiding Bolt + Sneak Attack? As in, "I deal damage with a slightly lower attack bonus, deal solid radiant damage PLUS Sneak Attack, and the next attack is made at advantage, which means that if I keep hitting them, I always have Sneak Attack, not to mention that I eventually get infinite Guiding Bolts by level 13 because I recover three Reiki dice when I do this?" But not just that: Mass Healing Word? Mass Cure Wounds? Raise Dead!? Sure, you spend a bit of dice, but you get a lot of dice, you recover them with a Short Rest, and if you need them in combat, it's just one or two Sneak Attacks away. Again - not just infinite healing, but potentially infinite spellcasting.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    [*]Yin and Yang Principle is about the only other mechanically sound feature. If it weren't because I'm not a fan of the subclass, I'd actually...screw that, I like the whole mechanic. --- That said: while I love the mechanic, I weep because I don't like the subclass, and thus it remains orphaned. But kudos on this last one - it's mechanically lovely.[/LIST]
    I am happy you like this. Took me a while to get this concept down.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    My main problem is that it's a concept that I feel doesn't fit the Rogue at all, and has two class features that are IMO way too overpowered because of semi-infinite resources. If I had an attraction to the subclass, I'd have suggested heavy nerfs, but unfortunately, they'd be heavy nerfs to a subclass that I feel can't fit the Rogue.
    I am working to try and find a way to mitigate the semi-infinite resources, since i was trying to find a way to provide a resource. Since the other healers have spells to suppliment the other healing resources, such as Warlock spells with the Celestial Warlock's healing pool and those spells regen on a short rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Now, why do I say that I'm excited at the possibility? Look at your first subclass feature - Chirurgeon. The concept behind a chirurgeon should ahve been the subclass instead.
    During my first basic rough draft, the class was called Chirurgeon and was looking to basically using a Healers kit for everything, however, I was not liking it since other healers are not dependent on mundane items to heal and the healing spells only require V, S components. Ie to prevent, we take your kit and suddenly you can't heal at all.

    I can retool naming conventions. I understand the concern about being "Monky" feel. I don't mind heavy nerfs, to prevent and make sure it remains on par with other healers.

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    I suggested something similar back in 3e, sort of as a joke. I believe the idea was that, if you sneak attacked with a Cure Light Wounds, you should get sneak attack dice as additional healing, since it was positive energy being put directly to vulnerable places.
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Quote Originally Posted by metalith View Post
    Well, most people responding have had a negative opinion of the subclass so far, not so far off the course. :)
    Yeah, but their underlying worry was the mechanics, not necessarily the concept. Again - I tried to be fair despite loathing it, but I tried to be honest with it, and I tried to wrap it with nice, because I know critique can be harsh.

    Well, I decided on the term Reiki because I disliked the original term of pool of positive/vital energy dice. It was cumbersome and bland. I remembered that there are real word "Energy Healers" and most of them were things like Shamans/Wisemen/Wisewomen/etc. None of them felt right or inspiring until I came across Reiki. From the entomology of the word, most information I came across said it was a fusion of Chinese and Japanese terms. I originally was going to name it Reiki Master but if you are going for asthetic go for it 100% and it was a choice of Shifu vs Sifu if I was going for Asiatic terms.
    Reikijutsushi? Basically, think of Reiki as an art, or a technique, in the same way alchemy is one. Thanks to Fullmetal Alchemist, we know that alchemist itself is known in Japanese as renkinjutsu, and the end prefix "-shi" gives it the meaning of "one who practices". So, in total, it'd mean "one who practices the art/technique of Reiki".

    I am happy you like this. Took me a while to get this concept down.
    Praise to where it should go.

    There was this class in 3.5, very late in the edition, called the Shadow Sun Monk. It was on the (infamous but awesome) Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords, and it had this feel of someone who dabbled with light and darkness, by practicing two of the nine disciplines the book offered - one that had a supernatural approach to Shadows, and the other being basically fantasy Jujitsu (because of its emphasis on locks and dealing with larger opponents). One of the things it had was to manifest one effect (generally the shadow effect) and next turn be capable of manifesting the opposite effect (generally the light/sun effect). So, you could, for example, generate an aura of shadow that granted cold resistance, and next turn you could shoot a bolt of light to the opponent.

    I got this vibe when I saw it, but what I really liked was how the mechanics worked on their own. If you dissect it, each feature is relatively balanced (you get a ton of THP, but that's no issue, and there's a precedent for a second attack dealing Sneak Attack with the Scout), but then you offer a unified resource that's limited, and you add triggers to it. There is the issue that the Yin technique requires making a second attack roll (so the attack could fail), but that's as far as it goes - it would be too restrictive if you then added a Saving Throw, so keeping it with a relatively simple trigger (enemy dies) and a fair restriction (make a second attack roll) with an attenuant (you get the same bonuses and penalties, so if you had good bonuses, you have a fair chance to hit the character) and boons (has a fair range) to compensate makes it usable. Since your job is basically dealing a lot of damage, the trigger is not as difficult to pull, so the feature will see quite a lot of action, unless you're always fighting single creatures, but that's a thing with the DM, not with the feature itself.

    That's the kind of thought that makes a class feature shine.

    I am working to try and find a way to mitigate the semi-infinite resources, since i was trying to find a way to provide a resource. Since the other healers have spells to suppliment the other healing resources, such as Warlock spells with the Celestial Warlock's healing pool and those spells regen on a short rest.
    Mechanically (as I mentioned, I have issues with the subclass itself), the problem lies in that Reiki is too easy to recharge. Reiki, as someone mentioned, works pretty much like the Monk's Ki mechanic with its main use being the Celestial Warlock's healing feature. At first, it recharges on a long rest, where you have the least amount of resources - those first few levels, the "faith healer" can only use its features sparingly, because it has very few dice to work with. Monks have the same issue, except by level 5 they recharge on a short rest. However, since you wanted that to appear later (like with the Bard's Bardic Inspiration dice), you give it a cool recharging mechanic. But then things go haywire when you allow it to recharge with a successful Sneak Attack...which is something you always do. By the time you reach level 13, you essentially have infinite healing, because all you need is a short rest to recover all your features, and if you don't, you can just lower your Sneak Attack dice by a third and still do exceptional damage while recharging a resource that's far more useful and valuable than your Sneak Attack. In fact, you already have that, but you still have one healing dice recharged even if you go full blast.

    As you said, the other healers have spells (save for the Monk's Way of Mercy, just so you know), but they're limited resources, since they recharge on a long rest (unlike the Warlock, which has a special form of magic which leaves it with less spells per day than the other classes). To boot:

    • Aritificers have limited access to healing, which gets further delayed as being half-casters. The Alchemist has it better with extra healing by 5th level and access to more healing spells for free (making it a poor-man's Life Cleric), but the spells are recharged as a long rest, as well as its Heal breakthrough benefit.
    • Bards have Song of Rest to assist with healing, but their healing is limited mostly to Healing Word and Power Word: Heal, as well as other assorted healing spells.
    • Clerics are designed with healing in mind, but their spells don't recharge on a short rest. And of those, the Life Cleric (the healer par excellence) is the only one who gets a "rechargeable" resource, but Font of Life (sp?) only heals damage below half your maximum HP. Trust me when I tell you this, because I used that CD a LOT in the latter half of the last game I played.
    • Druids are not as skilled as Clerics because they lack Healing Word, but they got Healing Sphere which is a phenomenal out-of-battle healing source. (That, plus Goodberries!) Of those, the best one is the Circle of Shepherd Druid with its Unicorn spirit, but you can only trigger that spirti once per short rest (IIRC). On the other hand, it's exceptional healing.
    • Monk's Way of Mercy (still on UA, but I mention it for purposes of completion), as I mentioned, doesn't have any spells. Its healing is touch-based, and requires an action to pull, unless you use flurry of blows in which you can use it as part of that same action. However, even though their Ki recharges on a short rest, they can still be limited on what they can do.
    • Paladins get Lay on Hands, which is a long-rest tied resource, and their access to their best healing spell (Aura of Vitality) is delayed to level 9. The only class with a healing mechanic that can recharge on a short rest is the Oath of the Crown, and it works exactly as the Life Cleric's Font of Life, except even MORE limited.
    • Rangers have the issues of the Druid (not many healing spells) and Paladin (delayed spell access) combined. They tie with Bards as classes that have healing as an afterthought. However, they also have access to Healing Spirit, which is awesome.
    • Divine Soul Sorcerers have access to healing spells like a Cleric, but limited spell slots, so every spell you take to heal is one less spell you take to blast, which is what the Sorcerer does best. And Empowered Healing won't work as well except once you get Mass Cure Wounds, unless you upcast your spells.
    • Celestial Warlock, as you mentioned, is the only class/subclass pairing that has spell slots that recharge on a short rest. However, only a handful of spells (mainly Cure Wounds) are part of the list, and you need to spend one of your spells known to learn it. And, the Healing Light mechanic recharges on a LONG rest.


    As you can see, most of the resources either recharge on a long rest, or recharge on a short rest but have further limitations (such as working to heal up until half your maximum HP, or have less slots to work with). This subclass, on the other hand, has the following ways to recharge:

    • First, it has the ability to sacrifice Sneak Attack damage dice to recharge. This on its own is enough - you either choose to deal damage or recharge your healing pool. In fact, this is a very creative way to recharge the pool; again, credit to where it's due.
    • Then, short rest recharge. Fair enough; however, you already have that sacrifice mechanic in play.
    • Then, you get auto-recharges on levels 13 and 17. If you use your pool tactically, you can essentially get infinite resources from it, since you still have a chance for heavy damage.


    See how it stacks up to infinite recharges?

    The idea here should be to limit yourself to one of those three recharge mechanics (plus full recharge on long rest). If you choose to recharge it as part of a short rest, then it's basically refluffed Ki. If you choose to recharge it by sacrificing your Sneak Attack dice, you add a tactical element to the subclass, since you're sacrificing something you're good at (damage dealing) to gain something you're also very good at (healing). And if you choose for the auto-recharge, make it a logical recharge: three healing dice by level 17 is fair enough, and you could even keep it up to 4. However, the issue is having the three recharge mechanics at once...

    ...on a class feature that's already insanely good. That's the other issue. For one, it's ranged healing - it works exactly as the Celestial Warlock's Healing Light, except that feature recharges on a LONG rest (again, weights and counterweights). The only other sources of ranged healing are the Paladin's Aura of Vitality, and spells (save for Cure Wounds, unless you have the Artificer use its homunculus servant to cast it from a distance). And again, those spells are limited and rechargeable on a LONG rest. It's evident that, in order to "keep" up, you basically took the best features of all the healer classes (in particular the Celestial Warlock) and tried to merge them. Right now, the subclass takes the Celestial Warlock's Healing Light and ties it to the Monk's Ki mechanic, then pulls off a Way of Shadow Monk with its limited spell list. That on its own makes it a far more efficient healer than the rest, because its resource recharges relatively fast. However, once you add the sacrifice recharge mechanic to it, all bets are off.

    Since you seem too attached to the subclass...how about this?

    • Rather than tie them to an esoteric mechanic, why not tie them to your Hit Dice? You'll end up with 20 Hit Dice, after all. And your Hit Dice are d8s, which are superb. You don't add your Constitution modifier to the healing unless you use them yourself, but it gives the vibe of using your own life energy, which ties greatly with the sacrifice mechanic.
    • Then, keep the sacrifice recharge mechanic, but limit it. You could even have a hybrid of the two. Make it so that you can sacrifice a number of Sneak Attack dice up to your...Intelligence? Constitution? modifier to recharge it. Then, let's say that, if you kill someone with a Sneak Attack, you recharge a number of dice equal to that maximum. That way, you have a recharge mechanic that's more tactical and doesn't hinder your resources. And, since it deals with your Hit Dice, it's always competitive. Spent all your HD? Well, you can't heal on your own on a short rest!
    • Finally, consider having the spells be spread out, and not gained at once. For example: by 3rd level, you get 1st level spells (like Cure Wounds). Each time you gain a new subclass feature, you gain the next level of spells, up until level 17th where you get 5th level spells.


    This gives it a tactical feel - you have a limited resource which you have to spread out, but with a fair recharge mechanic. Again: not a fan of the subclass, but I still don't mind brainstorming ideas that you could use.

    During my first basic rough draft, the class was called Chirurgeon and was looking to basically using a Healers kit for everything, however, I was not liking it since other healers are not dependent on mundane items to heal and the healing spells only require V, S components. Ie to prevent, we take your kit and suddenly you can't heal at all.
    That's why one of the class features involves improvising the kit. Or not depending on a healer's kit at all. If a DM takes your healer's kit, it must have a good reason, and I doubt it'll be because of the healing. And technically the Artificer depends on mundane items, since it can use artisan's tools as spellcasting focuses; in fact, the Alchemist's 5th level ability all but requires you to use alchemist's supplies as a focus to apply the extra bonus.

    However, it's not out of the way to have a mundane healer recharge or improvise a healer's kit to use its features. By 11th level, it's essentially a thing it should already know: use a dagger to make surgery, torn clothes as bandages, maybe find something fluffy as a feather to use as gauze, any form of ale... Considering that historical barber surgeons believed in bloodletting, you may even look to keep live leeches! If by 11th level you can't improvise a healer's kit to heal your allies, the subclass isn't as cool. And I'd personally dig a mundane healer that can shank anyone trying to harm its patient. I feel 5e could use it.

    I can retool naming conventions. I understand the concern about being "Monky" feel. I don't mind heavy nerfs, to prevent and make sure it remains on par with other healers.
    Thing is, in an attempt to keep it on "par", you jumped the gun a lot.

    And as for the "Monky" feel, it's mostly because I feel it should have been a Monk subclass, not a Rogue subclass. That's non-negotiable...and I feel the Way of Mercy does exactly this, making it slightly redundant concept-wise.
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    If you gain any healing ability from attacking, I suggest having the healing require an action to spend, and any way to reduce it to a bonus action has stringent limitations.

    If you want to have Reiki dice from attacking, maybe allow them to convert sneak attack dice to Reiki dice after the damage is rolled, and don't allow them to be converted back until used to heal someone? That would mostly stop the character from gaining Reiki dice until the tail end of combat, when the PC is trying to balance getting healing out of the combat without crippling their damage output.

    But yes, getting dice from resting, giving up damage, and on a hit is way too much. Maybe if you give a default list after a rest and additional ones that are lost at the end of the turn (with those mentioned limits on spending them as a bonus action.
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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Reiki Shifu.

    Thanks for the suggestions. Sorry haven't replied been working on re-engineering this. I prefer the purely sacrifice option since that was the initial mechanic I fell in love with. I love tactical mechanics, to do one thing you sacrifice in another.

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    Default Re: Homebrew: Opinions Requested - Rogue Healing Archetype: Entelechist

    Rework completed. Hopefully much more polished then the previous form.

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