Entering T3, looking for ways to buff our monk as a Sorcelock (2 lock/x sorc)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

Our party is going to level up to level 10 and the DM said that we are going to level faster as we go.

I am playing a Hex-Shadow Sorcelock.

I am looking for new ways to buff our monk in higher levels as the player feel too weak in combat.

Right now I usually cast haste on him.

I don't use twinned metamagic as I don't want to(I have subtle, quicken and going to take carful next so he will be able to travel freely in my AOEs like sickening radiance with my dogos - hound of ill oman.)

Any ideas for spells to use on him?
Stuff to cast into his spell storing ring?


I prefer non concentration stuff so I will be able to use my darkness as a safe spot from abilities that requires line of sight and a shadow jump location for the monk.

We also have a:
Druid(not sure why, the player switch characters)
Wizard bladesinger
Warlock fiend(the strongest character in the table, the player sure he is the weakest because he doesn't have a use for his bonus action like the rest).

[Keravath]

1) Monks are pretty amazing. If they aren't using stun then they are missing the point. A monk does somewhat less damage but the ability to stun and get it all back on a short rest is amazing.

2) If you want to boost monk damage then it works best if the monk multiclasses. The simplest option is 1 level of war cleric which gets the divine favor spell automatically. Divine favor adds a d4 extra damage to every attack and it only needs to be cast once so it doesn't interfere with bonus action economy after the round it is cast (the monk also picks up some other useful spells - going 3 levels in cleric will give them all the spell slots they are likely to need for the day). The other options are either a level or two of warlock or two or three levels of gloomstalker ranger. Ranger adds hunters mark, warlock adds hex. Gloomstalker gives the monk invisibility in the dark and an extra attack in the first round of combat while a hexblade warlock gives hexblades curse 1/SR which adds damage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

1) Monks are pretty amazing. If they aren't using stun then they are missing the point. A monk does somewhat less damage but the ability to stun and get it all back on a short rest is amazing.

2) If you want to boost monk damage then it works best if the monk multiclasses. The simplest option is 1 level of war cleric which gets the divine favor spell automatically. Divine favor adds a d4 extra damage to every attack and it only needs to be cast once so it doesn't interfere with bonus action economy after the round it is cast (the monk also picks up some other useful spells - going 3 levels in cleric will give them all the spell slots they are likely to need for the day). The other options are either a level or two of warlock or two or three levels of gloomstalker ranger. Ranger adds hunters mark, warlock adds hex. Gloomstalker gives the monk invisibility in the dark and an extra attack in the first round of combat while a hexblade warlock gives hexblades curse 1/SR which adds damage.

He is using his stun when needed.
It is not that he doesn't do a thing, he is very useful and can do a lot but he feel like he lacks damage.

It is less about his character build and more about how the characters interact.

He do have a ring of spell storing for us to give him spells and our wizard do give him shadow blade and I give him shield and Armour of Agathys to use.

I am looking for stuff my character can do to help his character.

In game interactions are fun and making your super mobile monk into a beast is fun for the table.

*The thing is that I usually play multiclass characters and I don't use a lot of high level spells(this character was my first one to get a 4 level spell). I don't know what work well. Haste is good but it is better out of combat and for RP.

**We are doing dungeon of the mad mage and the ability to get the monk out of the dungeon to the city in 2-3 minutes to buy stuff/carry the party with a portable hole is useful (we counted the tiles he need to travel and calculated it with his speed).

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd replace Armor of Agathys with Hex.

+1d6 Necrotic damage per hit is a big deal when you hit 4 times a turn.

[CheddarChampion]

Any spell that makes a target easier to hit is kinda like an offensive buff. Web for example.
Enlarge/Reduce can grant the monk +1d4 damage per hit and helps if they like to grapple.
Greater Invisibility is also a good buff, but enemies will likely focus on creatures they can see.

[Keravath]

Any ideas for spells to use on him?
Stuff to cast into his spell storing ring?

I prefer non concentration stuff so I will be able to use my darkness as a safe spot from abilities that requires line of sight and a shadow jump location for the monk.

I would second the suggestion of dropping a hex spell or two into the ring of spell storing. It lets him boost damage by a d6 on every attack and is good against the tougher opponents. Not so useful on opponents that go down in one round since it takes a bonus action to move.

However, does your monk have devils sight? Is he also a warlock? Without devils sight he can't use the area of your darkness spell as a destination for his shadow step.

"When you are in dim light or darkness, as a bonus action you can teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness."

If the monk can't see the space they can't use it as a destination for shadow step. So unless the monk can see through magical darkness (devils sight) they can't use a space inside a darkness spell as the destination for shadow step.

In addition, they have to also start off in dim light or darkness. If they are in a brightly lit area then they can't shadow step at all unfortunately. I have a level 9 shadow monk and have run into these limitations.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'd replace Armor of Agathys with Hex.

+1d6 Necrotic damage per hit is a big deal when you hit 4 times a turn.

Nice idea, our full warlock will be able to cast it for him(I don't have hex as spell known).
And no need to replace, Armor of Agathys have a duration of an hour our full warlock hex have 24 hours.

Any spell that makes a target easier to hit is kinda like an offensive buff. Web for example.
Enlarge/Reduce can grant the monk +1d4 damage per hit and helps if they like to grapple.
Greater Invisibility is also a good buff, but enemies will likely focus on creatures they can see.

Web sound great but we have CC and almost all his attacks already with adv.
Enlarge is an option.
Greater Invisibility have the problem you mention about him not being a target and his attack already have adv.

I would second the suggestion of dropping a hex spell or two into the ring of spell storing. It lets him boost damage by a d6 on every attack and is good against the tougher opponents. Not so useful on opponents that go down in one round since it takes a bonus action to move.

However, does your monk have devils sight? Is he also a warlock? Without devils sight he can't use the area of your darkness spell as a destination for his shadow step.

"When you are in dim light or darkness, as a bonus action you can teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness."

If the monk can't see the space they can't use it as a destination for shadow step. So unless the monk can see through magical darkness (devils sight) they can't use a space inside a darkness spell as the destination for shadow step.

In addition, they have to also start off in dim light or darkness. If they are in a brightly lit area then they can't shadow step at all unfortunately. I have a level 9 shadow monk and have run into these limitations.

He have a dagger of blindsight(forgot to mention it).
And we wont fight in the light as it is bad for us(we use combat as war kind of approach).

[Keravath]

Another item to remember ... the ring of spell storing holds 5 levels of spells, not 5 spells. So if you cast hex lasting 24 hours into the ring then that is a 5th level spell and fills the entire ring with one spell.

(I had this issue on my level 9 hexblade when I wanted to cast shield into a ring of spell storing I had found and could only fit one since I only had 5th level slots. I took a level of shadow sorcerer on my next level up because I was going to at some point and it made the ring of spell storing useful).

[FinnS]

Another item to remember ... the ring of spell storing holds 5 levels of spells, not 5 spells. So if you cast hex lasting 24 hours into the ring then that is a 5th level spell and fills the entire ring with one spell.

(I had this issue on my level 9 hexblade when I wanted to cast shield into a ring of spell storing I had found and could only fit one since I only had 5th level slots. I took a level of shadow sorcerer on my next level up because I was going to at some point and it made the ring of spell storing useful).

There's nothing that says a warlock has to cast his spells as level five slots. It's obviously more beneficial if he does so the vast majority of the time. He doesn't have to though.

As a side note with the Ring of spell storing, you can cast a concentration spell into the ring and when the monk uses it it doesn't use your concentration it uses the monk's concentration to maintain it.

Personally I would let him have Hex in the spell store and you cast haste on him.
That would give him five attacks per round all with an extra 1d6 necrotic damage, double his speed and +2AC AND he hexes the targets STR for easy grapples.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's nothing that says a warlock has to cast his spells as level five slots.

Well, there kind of is:

PHB p. 107
"The Warlock table shows how many spell slots you have. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level.
{snip}
... when you are 5th level, you have two 3rd‑level spell slots. To cast the 1st‑level spell Thunderwave, you must spend one of those slots, and you cast it as a 3rd‐‑level spell."

PHB p. 201
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.

[FinnS]

Well, there kind of is:

PHB p. 107
"The Warlock table shows how many spell slots you have. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level.
{snip}
... when you are 5th level, you have two 3rd‑level spell slots. To cast the 1st‑level spell Thunderwave, you must spend one of those slots, and you cast it as a 3rd‐‑level spell."

PHB p. 201
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.

Again there's nothing that says you have to cast it as a 5th level spell. Just like you can cast shield for example with a third level slot. It's still just a first level spell.
So yeah you can cast a first level spell with a 5th level slot and still have it only be a first-level spell. You do not have to cast it as the more powerful version if you do not want to.

And for this exact example the hexblade can put shield in that ring for the Monk and it's only a first level spell even though he's using a fifth level slot. There's absolutely nothing to say he can't do the same with Hex.

As RAW I see what you're saying but if I'm dming I'm not holding them to it. I would absolutely allow a warlock to cast a spell at a lower level.
You are basically punishing them for taking levels in the class.
Oh look a stone that can hold 4 spell levels. Warlock levels to 9...oh I'm sorry you can't use that stone anymore.
That's just dumb period!

Like c'mon, you're saying that the idiot fighter (INT 8) can take the Magic Initiate feat taking Shield. Spend 4 days filling the stone with Shield spells but it's just a hunk of rock to the natural Caster 9th level Warlock?
Yeah that sounds right....

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Another item to remember ... the ring of spell storing holds 5 levels of spells, not 5 spells. So if you cast hex lasting 24 hours into the ring then that is a 5th level spell and fills the entire ring with one spell.

(I had this issue on my level 9 hexblade when I wanted to cast shield into a ring of spell storing I had found and could only fit one since I only had 5th level slots. I took a level of shadow sorcerer on my next level up because I was going to at some point and it made the ring of spell storing useful).

This is not a problem as you can fill the ring more then one time a day. The 24 hours duration is a benefit.

There's nothing that says a warlock has to cast his spells as level five slots. It's obviously more beneficial if he does so the vast majority of the time. He doesn't have to though.

As a side note with the Ring of spell storing, you can cast a concentration spell into the ring and when the monk uses it it doesn't use your concentration it uses the monk's concentration to maintain it.

Personally I would let him have Hex in the spell store and you cast haste on him.
That would give him five attacks per round all with an extra 1d6 necrotic damage, double his speed and +2AC AND he hexes the targets STR for easy grapples.

We will try it in the table, the biggest problem is to find a round with an unused bonus action for the monk to use for hex.

The main problem is that it is not enough. We made ourselves a goal to buff the monk as much as possible. the player who play the druid was playing a cleric before and we planned on him using holy weapon on the shadow blade our hasted monk will cast from the ring.

[CTurbo]

This is half on topic and half off topic, but I'm really curious about this Monk and why it's so under powered. I've played a few Monks and I never at anytime felt them to be under powered at all. They aren't going to win DPR contests, but they are not bad at damage either.

The "problems" I see with the Monk are-
1. Monk's need more utility so I think Ritual Caster is a great feat for them. Magic Initiate: Cleric, Druid, Wizard, or Warlock is great too

2. Monks don't really benefit from any of the common DPR boosting feats like GWM, PAM, or SS. Sentinel can help with DPR though.

3. Monks are probably the most ASI dependent class of all leaving little room for any feats. I think maybe they should have gotten an extra feat like the Rogue.


Anyway, if his damage really is that bad, the DM could let him find some Bracers of Striking which would really improve his unarmed attacks. I assume at this level he is using a magic weapon? At level 11 he will be able to turn invisible all the time and his unarmed strikes become d8s. Assuming 20 Dex and a +2 magic weapon which is completely reasonable for a 11th level Monk, he should be doing a very reliable 2d8+14 + 1d8+5 with an optional additional 1d8+5 with a ki spent.

For comparison sake, lets remove magic weapons and assume max attack stat and let's compare some level 11 classes in DPR

1. Monk - 3d8+15 = 28.5(+9.5 with ki)
2. Rogue - 7d6+5 = 29.5 assuming sneak damage
3. Fighter S&B - 3d8+21 = 34.5
4. Fighter PAM - 3d10+1d4+20 = 37
5. Fighter GWM + Greataxe - 3d12+15+30 = 64.5(note DPR is not nearly as reliable)
6. Barb GWM + Greataxe + rage - 2d12+16+20 = 49(+conditional +6.5 on crit)
7. Ranger Hunter with Colossus Slayer, SS, and Hunter's Mark - 3d8+2d6+10+20 = 50.5(note DPR is not as reliable)
8. Paladin S&B using a single 1st lvl spell slot for smite - 7d8+14 = 45.5
9. Paladin with PAM using a single spell slot for smite - 2d10+6d8+1d4+15 = 55.5


So yeah a Monk is not ever going to be able to compete with a GWM Fighter, Paladin, Barb, or a SS Fighter, Ranger, but it's right on par with everything else. DPR is more versatile and reliable than a Rogue, and it as least similar to a 3 attack per round Fighter or raging Barbarian with no feats.

I just see often how people complain that Monks are lacking in DPR but I just haven't seen that in actual gameplay.

If the player is REALLY unhappy with the amount of damage he's doing, a 3 level Ranger dip would help a lot. Gloom Stalker pairs perfectly with Shadow Monk. If allowed US Revised, he can select Humanoids as favored enemy. Combined with Hunter's Mark, that's an extra 4d6+8 DPR best case scenario. Hunter+ Colossus Slayer adds all the DPR plus an extra 1d8 at the cost of all of great Gloom Stalker goodies.

[HPisBS]

Even as dodgy as he is, he'd probably appreciate dishing out a Hellish Rebuke or two in addition to Armor of Agathys.

Hex is great, especially against beefier enemies. Enlarge is good if you want him to be who enemies focus on.


But, if he can make his concentration saves, then what he really needs is Shadow of Moil, since it's kinda like auto-Rebukes and provides his own shadows. That will be better at lvl 14, though.

Edit: I just realized you say you're a shadow sorc, but not what the monk's subclass is. Shadow of Moil is good for a shadow monk 'cuz it provides his own shadows to step into or turn invisible in (w/out blinding him like Darkness would). Its utility is much less for any other kind of monk.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

This is half on topic and half off topic, but I'm really curious about this Monk and why it's so under powered. I've played a few Monks and I never at anytime felt them to be under powered at all. They aren't going to win DPR contests, but they are not bad at damage either.

The "problems" I see with the Monk are-
1. Monk's need more utility so I think Ritual Caster is a great feat for them. Magic Initiate: Cleric, Druid, Wizard, or Warlock is great too

2. Monks don't really benefit from any of the common DPR boosting feats like GWM, PAM, or SS. Sentinel can help with DPR though.

3. Monks are probably the most ASI dependent class of all leaving little room for any feats. I think maybe they should have gotten an extra feat like the Rogue.


Anyway, if his damage really is that bad, the DM could let him find some Bracers of Striking which would really improve his unarmed attacks. I assume at this level he is using a magic weapon? At level 11 he will be able to turn invisible all the time and his unarmed strikes become d8s. Assuming 20 Dex and a +2 magic weapon which is completely reasonable for a 11th level Monk, he should be doing a very reliable 2d8+14 + 1d8+5 with an optional additional 1d8+5 with a ki spent.

For comparison sake, lets remove magic weapons and assume max attack stat and let's compare some level 11 classes in DPR

1. Monk - 3d8+15 = 28.5(+9.5 with ki)
2. Rogue - 7d6+5 = 29.5 assuming sneak damage
3. Fighter S&B - 3d8+21 = 34.5
4. Fighter PAM - 3d10+1d4+20 = 37
5. Fighter GWM + Greataxe - 3d12+15+30 = 64.5(note DPR is not nearly as reliable)
6. Barb GWM + Greataxe + rage - 2d12+16+20 = 49(+conditional +6.5 on crit)
7. Ranger Hunter with Colossus Slayer, SS, and Hunter's Mark - 3d8+2d6+10+20 = 50.5(note DPR is not as reliable)
8. Paladin S&B using a single 1st lvl spell slot for smite - 7d8+14 = 45.5
9. Paladin with PAM using a single spell slot for smite - 2d10+6d8+1d4+15 = 55.5


So yeah a Monk is not ever going to be able to compete with a GWM Fighter, Paladin, Barb, or a SS Fighter, Ranger, but it's right on par with everything else. DPR is more versatile and reliable than a Rogue, and it as least similar to a 3 attack per round Fighter or raging Barbarian with no feats.

I just see often how people complain that Monks are lacking in DPR but I just haven't seen that in actual gameplay.

If the player is REALLY unhappy with the amount of damage he's doing, a 3 level Ranger dip would help a lot. Gloom Stalker pairs perfectly with Shadow Monk. If allowed US Revised, he can select Humanoids as favored enemy. Combined with Hunter's Mark, that's an extra 4d6+8 DPR best case scenario. Hunter+ Colossus Slayer adds all the DPR plus an extra 1d8 at the cost of all of great Gloom Stalker goodies.

The problem is not that he doesn't do enough damage, is that he feel ike he doesn't do enough.
Feeling are stronger then facts(unless you do science).
Everyone in the table knows that he do a respectable amount of damage.
He is the main part of the party utility so there is no need for added utility.

He doesn't want to multiclass into ranger, he do plan to get 2 levels in bladesinger and take the wizard headband of intelligent after the wizard will get his intelligent to 20.

And he the comparison he have to his damage is a shadow blade bladesinger and a machinegun sorcelock.

Even as dodgy as he is, he'd probably appreciate dishing out a Hellish Rebuke or two in addition to Armor of Agathys.

Hex is great, especially against beefier enemies. Enlarge is good if you want him to be who enemies focus on.


But, if he can make his concentration saves, then what he really needs is Shadow of Moil, since it's kinda like auto-Rebukes and provides his own shadows. That will be better at lvl 14, though.

Edit: I just realized you say you're a shadow sorc, but not what the monk's subclass is. Shadow of Moil is good for a shadow monk 'cuz it provides his own shadows to step into or turn invisible in (w/out blinding him like Darkness would). Its utility is much less for any other kind of monk.

Yes, shadow of moil is good suggestion. We will try it when we will have access to it.

And I am sure I also said he is a shadow monk(we are both shadow).

[Man_Over_Game]

1. Monk - 3d8+15 = 28.5(+9.5 with ki)

For reference, Fireball deals an average of 25 damage per creature hit (that's including a 40% save chance).

It hits in an 8x8 cube, which means anywhere between 1 and 64 targets are hit. Even if you only hit 4 targets, that's still 100 total damage.

Assuming the caster spends the next few rounds doing nothing but casting a cantrip, he'd do ~15 damage per turn. With the monk dealing ~+22 damage more per turn (assuming he uses Flurry of Blows regularly), the Monk would need about 3 rounds before he broke even with that caster.

And that was with just a single level 3 spell, hitting 6% of the maximum possible targets, with a 40% chance to fail, during a 4 round encounter, before counting the miss chance on attacks.
These 3 casters are level 10-11 and doing a lot more than one Fireball and spamming 15 damage cantrips.

Unless your DM plans on tacking on so many more encounters that it becomes a campaign of attrition, there'll be nothing that that Monk could reasonably do to maintain that same level of damage. He'll find more success making his own niche in the party.

[iTreeby]

If the real issue is that the monk feels like he isn't contributing maybe buffing isn't the answer?

I think you should cast hold person on enemies so every attack is a crit.

[Contrast]

Again there's nothing that says you have to cast it as a 5th level spell. Just like you can cast shield for example with a third level slot. It's still just a first level spell.
So yeah you can cast a first level spell with a 5th level slot and still have it only be a first-level spell. You do not have to cast it as the more powerful version if you do not want to.

And for this exact example the hexblade can put shield in that ring for the Monk and it's only a first level spell even though he's using a fifth level slot. There's absolutely nothing to say he can't do the same with Hex.

As RAW I see what you're saying but if I'm dming I'm not holding them to it. I would absolutely allow a warlock to cast a spell at a lower level.
You are basically punishing them for taking levels in the class.
Oh look a stone that can hold 4 spell levels. Warlock levels to 9...oh I'm sorry you can't use that stone anymore.
That's just dumb period!

Like c'mon, you're saying that the idiot fighter (INT 8) can take the Magic Initiate feat taking Shield. Spend 4 days filling the stone with Shield spells but it's just a hunk of rock to the natural Caster 9th level Warlock?
Yeah that sounds right....

Just to add another voice that RAW a high level warlock can't choose to cast a spell at a lower level (into a Ring of Spell Storing or otherwise). They don't have a 1st level spell slot - they only have 5th level spell slots. Theoretically a warlock who had regained a spell slot using a Pearl of Power could cast something into it as a 3rd level spell but thats the only situation I can think of. Of course if you're the DM/the DM says you can, you can do what you like

The pro of a warlock and a Ring of Spell Storing is that it's much easier for them to top it off through the day without costing resources if they happen to have spell slots left over as a short rest is about to happen, the downside is less flexibility on what goes in it.

Re the topic at hand - I feel like I need some more context. If you're already casting Darkness bubbles which he can see in using a Dagger of Blindsight along with getting other buffs, why exactly are they feeling underwhelming?

I would personally probably prefer Greater Invis to Haste but its much of a muchness really.

One issue might be that he's doing a lot of packets of small amounts of damage rather than the more flashy large damage amounts that other people can do so you could suggest (or do it yourself) keeping track of how much damage he's actually doing - it quickly adds up when you add it all together. Saying 8 damage, 6 damage, 9 damage sounds less impressive than 23 damage.