Let's Build some PC Armies

[Catullus64]

This is a challenge derived from some conversations my friends and I have. Let's see if we can build the most effective twelve armies possible, each of which consists entirely of 1st-Level characters with a PC class level. The army can have as many 1st-Level builds as you like, but each army must consist only of a single class. We'll say the army is 1000 strong. To prevent this from being a thread mostly about feat choices, I'm going to say no Variant Humans. Use standard array, no Volo's Monstrous Races. Starting equipment only. Use as much detail as you care to. (I don't bother with exact stat placements or skill choices in my example, but feel free to.)

I'll get things started with the army that I think would be the most powerful in the field: Druids.

400 Hill Dwarves, The Heavy Infantry.
Cantrips: Shillelagh, Mending
Standard Spell Preparation: Healing Word, Longstrider, Thunderwave, Absorb Elements
Armed with shields and quarterstaves, these guys are going to be the center front line, doing most of the actual fighting.

300 Wood Elves, The Skirmishers
Cantrips: Magic Stone, Frostbite
Standard Spell Preparation: Entangle, Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds, Longstrider
Armed with shields, ranged cantrips, and a scimitar for backup, these guys would be on the flanks or in a skirmish line, slowing and harassing the advancing enemy. When things get to close grips, they could merge ranks with the Heavy infantry, providing Cure Wounds support.

100 Firbolgs, The Scouts
Cantrips: Produce Flame, Druidcraft
Standard Spell Preparation: Snare, Charm Person, Beast Bond, Speak with Animals
These guys make sure that the army has good intelligence, ready to solicit cooperation from both humanoids and wildlife, as well as to set traps to slow and annoy the enemy's advance. Definitely give them the Outlander background, for that free Hunting Trap. Firbolg's free Disguise Self makes them better spies as well.

200 Hill Dwarves, The Support
Cantrips: Mold Earth, Mending
Standard Spell Preparation: Goodberry, Purify Food and Drink, Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease
The real reason this army is OP. Feed the entire army without needing to maintain a supply line? Dig trenches and ramparts in minutes? Fix armor, weapons, and equipment? Diagnose epidemics before they spread? Got all of these things covered.

In short, this army has solid fighting ability, but is going to dominate utterly in a war thanks to its enormous logistical advantages. On top of all that, it's got a secret battle-language (Druidic) in which its officers can communicate orders without giving anything away to the enemy. The only other armies I might envy for logistics are the Rangers with their amazing mobility, and the Paladins with their airtight disease control.

Now someone else try with a different class! This is intended to be a cooperative, rather than competitive exercise.

[ImproperJustice]

The Holy Sit Storm!

400 Aracana Clerics: Who fire volleys of Command: Sit at the enemy.

500 Half Orc Fighters with massive two handed weapons that rush and beat the enemy who is now prone with great fury.

100 Tempest Clerics: who begin the battle by casting Fog Cloud to cover their allies approach.

May charge any enemy formations and unleash thunderwaves as needed, and act as a fall back against strong melee foes with their rebuke powers.

[JackPhoenix]

Rogue. More special operations than frontline fighters, for obvious reasons, but they do have some interesting uses. No numbers, but the army heavily relies on cooperation between different units.

'Rouge Riders':
Mounted rogues? It's more likely than you think!
High elves riding centaurs. Expertise in Athletics. Given the equipment constrains, you can't get horses, but centaurs are even better. They are medium, yet can serve as mounts for medium creatures. With their high movement speed, centaurs charge in, and the elves hit the enemies with their racial cantrip: Booming Blade, in this case. Riding centaurs grant them Sneak Attack, and BB discourage the opponents from pursuing once the centaurs disengage. This combo is no one-trick pony, though: both the mounts and riders can also use ranged attacks, though elves can't get longbows from rogue starting equipment, even if they are proficient with them. Another option is for the centaur to move in, the elf grapples an enemy (using the Athletics expertise and readied action if required) and the centaur dashes away. As grappling an opponent only halves the grappler's movement, not the centaur's, this tactics allows disruption of enemy formations without impacting mobility, or kidnapping of high value targets. The whole unit is known for its unusual choice of warpaint.

SEAL(f)S:
Sea elves, Expertise in Athletics, get Animal Handling from background and also expertise in it. Equipment doesn't really matter, their MO is to climb aboard hostile ship, grapple the sailors and drag them into water. There, they either keep dragging them down to drown them, or, using their Aquamanelf racial ability, tell a bunch of shark or other beasts that the dinner is served. Triton would be slightly better (Fog Cloud and +1 Str helps), but alas, it's from VGtM.

SAS:
Aaracokra rogues. Stealth and Perception expertise. Mobile, flying, with ranged weapons. Can also drop oil or ball bearings (from burglar's pack equipment choice) to make things more unpleasant to the enemy. Nothing to see here. Specialize in nighttime operations despite the lack of darkvision, thanks to the following unit...

Drow Force:
Drow rogues, expertise in Stealth and Perception. With their increased darkvision range, they should be able to sneak upon the enemy unnoticed and paint the targets for an air strike with their Dancing Lights racial cantrip. They can also do some sniping themselves, but their main purpose is to serve as scouts.

Frogmen:
Grung rogues. Support unit. Somehow, they have Golgari Agent to get poisoner's kit and proficiency with it. A miserable lot, they beat each other unconscious and then extract their poison using DMG rules to supply the rest of the army with it. At least they don't have to worry about being poisoned themselves if they fail the check. If VGtM was allowed, the frog abuse would be the job of Yuan-ti, as +1 Int means better chance to make the check, and they would also try to persuade (through their racial Speak with Animals spell) any snake they find to share its venom for the same purpose.

[MaxWilson]

1000 War Clerics with high Dex, good armor, shields, rapiers and longbows or heavy crossbows will beat any other class. Having twice as many attacks as the other army (for two or three rounds) *and* spells on top (Cure Wounds, Shield of Faith) is hard to top.

Not to mention that in melee, massed Word of Radiance will absolutely wreck the enemy army. (Sacred flame/Word of Radiance trumps Barbarian Rage.)

[Cerefel]

I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned Warlock yet, considering how easy it is to specialize different warlocks for different roles, and how it's one of very few classes that can be effective at both melee and spellcasting at level 1

[MaxWilson]

I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned Warlock yet, considering how easy it is to specialize different warlocks for different roles, and how it's one of very few classes that can be effective at both melee and spellcasting at level 1

I initially posted about how awesome the Hexblade would be in this scenario due to good armor, mobility, etc. But then I changed my mind and decided the War Cleric is even better. (I always forget about clerics because I hate playing them, but for a first-level-only army their front-loading is ideal.)

I agree that warlocks are a strong contender though. Definitely stronger than clerics from a Combat As War standpoint.

[Xetheral]

MaxWilson... those War Clerics are going to be hard to beat, but I think I have something that can do it if the optional falling rules from Xanathar are in play and the battle is outdoors.

1000 Aarakocra Wizards with Magic Missile, Mage Armor, and Shield prepared. 16 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int. The Wizards cast Mage Armor at the beginning of the day, then short rest. When they're ready to attack, they fly 610 feet above your army and end their turn. Presumably, your War Clerics ready actions to shoot Heavy Crossbows (1 Cleric per Wizard) if the Wizards come within range. (If you buff with Bless instead, the Wizards fly away and come back in a couple minutes.) At the beginning of their next turn, the Wizards drop prone for free, instantly falling 500 feet and triggering your readied attacks. If your Clerics have a 16 dex they have +5 to hit, and the Wizards have AC 21 (with Shield, if needed), for a 6.2% hit chance with disadvantage from shooting a prone target. 60% of all hits are fatal, so 37 Wizards die. The remaining 963 Wizards cast Magic Missile. Assuming your Clerics have 14 Con, 68.75% of the spells are fatal, so 662 of your Clerics die. Then the Wizards use half their move to stand up from prone so that they stop falling (and fly up 25' if the Clerics are armed with longbows instead of crossbows.)

At this point I have 963 Wizards, about 770 of whom didn't need to cast Shield and so still have a spell slot left. You have 338 Clerics remaining. It doesn't really matter what you do next: there will be enough Magic Missiles on the next round to kill the rest of the Clerics. (You'd do somewhat better if your Clerics were 14 Dex, 16 Con, but it still doesn't end well for you.)

You fare slightly worse with Longbows, but you should probably be carrying Longbows anyway. Otherwise 1000 Aarakocra archery Fighters with Longbows can kill you with impunity. (By the same token, if your Clerics were also Aarakocra, you could keep the Wizards at bay indefinitely with your superior range.)

Actually, 1000 Aarakocra War Clerics vs 1000 Aarakocra Fighters with archery style would be an interesting battle. It would come down to whether the extra attacks can give the Clerics enough of an early lead to get past the Fighters' higher hit chance and Second Wind. But it's much more complicated to calculate.

[col_impact]

1000 Wizard Ghostwise Halfling, Wood Elf, Hill Dwarf, Gnome (or really from all the allowable races like a true school) Jedi Peace Corp

Jedis wil draw from a variety of backgrounds (like a true academy would) with care to assure we have enough healer's kits and potions of healing.

Cantrips from among Minor Illusion, [ranged cantrip], Mold Earth, Shocking Grasp, GFB, BB, Shape Water (ice cover), Friends

Default jedi will pack Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Find Familiar (flavored as a drone droid), Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic, Catapult, Disguise Self.

Some will pack from among Silent Image, Sleep, Charm Person to set up initial intrusion, cover, and paralyze tactics

Many battles will be won by digging networks of tunnels underneath opposing armies camp. Or just an illusionary fog rolling in and jedi disguised as the enemy (or child version of the enemy). Or just you know attack out of nowhere with the element of surprise and then disappear into the crowds or the mist. Jedi.

Each particular jedi will have at least one thing that is totally unique to that character such as racial feat, skill, tool, spell prepared so I have a giant swiss army knife of options when we burrow down to the individual jedi.

[JackPhoenix]

I like how many people instantly started ignoring OP's limitations.

[col_impact]

I like how many people instantly started ignoring OP's limitations.

Does this apply to me? If so let me know so I can adjust my answer.

[MaxWilson]

MaxWilson... those War Clerics are going to be hard to beat, but I think I have something that can do it if the optional falling rules from Xanathar are in play and the battle is outdoors.

1000 Aarakocra Wizards with Magic Missile, Mage Armor, and Shield prepared. 16 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int.

Yep, under those conditions I think the wizards would win. Their alpha strike is big enough that Healing Word/Cure Wounds won't put the cleric army back together in time.

They can also do fun things with mass Mold Earth.

Being able to win outdoor battles, and having higher mobility, gives the wizards the strategic initiative, which wins wars.

Edit: Goliath War Clerics might still win though.

[col_impact]

Yep, under those conditions I think the wizards would win. Their alpha strike is big enough that Healing Word/Cure Wounds won't put the cleric army back together in time.

They can also do fun things with mass Mold Earth.

Being able to win outdoor battles, and having higher mobility, gives the wizards the strategic initiative.

However I think Aarakocra are illegal for this contest, aren't they?

What do you think of my alpha strike?

[MaxWilson]

What do you think of my alpha strike?

I think you described a strategy, not an alpha strike. It's hard for me to judge out of context how well that strategy would work. Combat As War tactics are hard to evaluate in a vacuum.

[Cantankerous80]

The first thing I thought of when I read the thread description was 1k high elf Wizards spamming auto-hit spells like Magic Missile and Shield for defense. Any casters not caught in melee can fire into someone elses melee if the enemy is able to close through the firing line.

[col_impact]

I think you described a strategy, not an alpha strike. It's hard for me to judge out of context how well that strategy would work. Combat As War tactics are hard to evaluate in a vacuum.

My army comes into your camp shielded in mist and disguised as your army but with a signature flair that marks my army, casts sleep bombs to paralyze swathes of you, disarms you by taking your weapons or you bag of spell components, gags you, and ties you all up, often having shed no blood. The leader (Yoda) a ghostwise halfling will then have a telepathic conversation with their leader to present him/her with the option of swearing allegiance and loyalty to the jedi order or dying. Is that a good alpha strike?

[MaxWilson]

My army comes into your camp shielded in mist and disguised as your army but with a signature flair that marks my army, casts sleep bombs to paralyze swathes of you, disarms you by taking your weapons or you bag of spell components, gags you, and ties you up all while you are sleeping. The leader (Yoda) a ghostwise halfling will then have a telepathic conversation with your leader. Is that a good alpha strike?

Disguise Self is great for disguising a handful of characters, and I would absolutely buy that you might be able to sneak a few troops in. But a whole army? Army B knows perfectly well that Army A isn't also Army B, no matter how well Army A's illusions are crafted, because there are too many of them.

I think that just results in your army starting a fight while they're down on spell slots from Disguise Self and Fog Cloud spells. You can't assume that your army has the strategic initiative, or that other armies will just blithely accept your illusions at face value.

================================================== =============

@Xethereal, after more thinking I have concluded that Goliath War Clerics with Healing Word beat Aarakocra dive-bombing with Magic Missile alpha strikes, but that Aarakocra's spamming Sleep (with Magic Missile and Acid Splash in reserve) beat the Goliaths. So I think Aarakocra a dominant race here, and Wizards are a dominant class pick because they have the most spell slots at that level and the most useful spell list (especially with cantrips) and because Aarakocra can't use heavier armors anyway.

This doesn't necessarily mean that an Aarakocra Wizard army would win 100% of the time against e.g. an Aarakocra Hexblade army. Tactics still matter. But you've persuaded me that the wizards have the best set of strategies available to them, once all counterstrategies and counter-counterstrategies are taken into account.

[col_impact]

Disguise Self is great for disguising a handful of characters, and I would absolutely buy that you might be able to sneak a few troops in. But a whole army? Army B knows perfectly well that Army A isn't also Army B, no matter how well Army A's illusions are crafted, because there are too many of them.

I think that just results in your army starting a fight while they're down on spell slots from Disguise Self and Fog Cloud spells. You can't assume that your army has the strategic initiative, or that other armies will just blithely accept your illusions at face value.

Not Fog Cloud, we use Silent Image aka Trojan Horse which imposes a huge debuff on your army (disadvantage to hit, cannot target me with spells requiring seeing target). They do not come in all at the same time but strategically isolate sections of your army and 'replaces' them with agents who are loyal to me. Espionage, guerilla tactics, etc.

[MaxWilson]

Not Fog Cloud, we use Silent Image aka Trojan Horse which imposes a huge debuff on your army (disadvantage to hit, cannot target me with spells requiring seeing target). They do not come in all at the same time but strategically isolate sections of your army and 'replaces' them with agents who are loyal to me. Espionage, guerilla tactics, etc.

Well, it could work. It could also result in your army getting destroyed in detail by an alert enemy.

I'm pretty sure it would fail miserably against the Aarakocra wizard army, anyway. You'll never convince them you're Aarakocras because you can't fly. And they're faster and more mobile than you are, so it's probably going to be them raiding your camps at night instead of vice versa.

[col_impact]

Well, it could work. It could also result in your army getting destroyed in detail by an alert enemy.

I'm pretty sure it would fail miserably against the Aarakocra wizard army, anyway. You'll never convince them you're Aarakocras because you can't fly. And they're faster and more mobile than you are, so it's probably going to be them raiding your camps at night instead of vice versa.

Incorrect. I am 100% confident that I can take on any other army with my giant swiss army knife jedi school. My first action will be to launch an extensive spy campaign against you from far away. Every single one of my jedi can be a lone ranger when required. If Aarokara is legal, my army will have a contingency of them for just this purpose. How many allowable races are there? Let's say 100 for easy math. If I have 1000 jedi, then I have 10 Aarokara each with a different skill set, unique spell, etc.

Remember, my army essentially has access to every skill, every cantrip, every 1st level spell, every race

[MaxWilson]

Incorrect. I am 100% confident that I can take on any other army with my giant swiss army knife jedi school.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I had thought you were asking for my opinion, but I see now that you were just asking for your own opinion. I'll shut my mouth now.

[Xetheral]

Disguise Self is great for disguising a handful of characters, and I would absolutely buy that you might be able to sneak a few troops in. But a whole army? Army B knows perfectly well that Army A isn't also Army B, no matter how well Army A's illusions are crafted, because there are too many of them.

I think that just results in your army starting a fight while they're down on spell slots from Disguise Self and Fog Cloud spells. You can't assume that your army has the strategic initiative, or that other armies will just blithely accept your illusions at face value.

================================================== =============

@Xethereal, after more thinking I have concluded that Goliath War Clerics with Healing Word beat Aarakocra dive-bombing with Magic Missile alpha strikes, but that Aarakocra's spamming Sleep (with Magic Missile and Acid Splash in reserve) beat the Goliaths. So I think Aarakocra a dominant race here, and Wizards are a dominant class pick because they have the most spell slots at that level and the most useful spell list (especially with cantrips) and because Aarakocra can't use heavier armors anyway.

This doesn't necessarily mean that an Aarakocra Wizard army would win 100% of the time against e.g. an Aarakocra Hexblade army. Tactics still matter. But you've persuaded me that the wizards have the best set of strategies available to them, once all counterstrategies and counter-counterstrategies are taken into account.

Good call on the Goliaths being able to survive the Magic Missile spell, and on the ultity of Sleep. I'm thinking Aarakocra War Clerics or Fighters might be more dominant than the Aaracokra Wizards against a wider variety of enemies, and also have a lot more staying power. But Aarakocra Clerics or Fighters can't kill their land-based peers nearly as well as the Wizards can.

Would you agree with this summary?

Aarakocra Wizards: Can rapidly kill anything land-based, using all available resources.
Aarakocra War Clerics or Fighters: Can efficiently but slowly kill anything land-based except other War Clerics or Fighters (the Aarakocra lose to Goliaths, roughly balanced odds against any other race). Can also drive off (but not kill) Aarakocra Wizards.

[col_impact]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I had thought you were asking for my opinion, but I see now that you were just asking for your own opinion. I'll shut my mouth now.

He says as the realization dawns upon him that my army is more or less the Harper faction.

[col_impact]

Good call on the Goliaths being able to survive the Magic Missile spell, and on the ultity of Sleep. I'm thinking Aarakocra War Clerics or Fighters might be more dominant than the Aaracokra Wizards against a wider variety of enemies, and also have a lot more staying power. But Aarakocra Clerics or Fighters can't kill their land-based peers nearly as well as the Wizards can.

Would you agree with this summary?

Aarakocra Wizards: Can rapidly kill anything land-based, using all available resources.
Aarakocra War Clerics or Fighters: Can efficiently but slowly kill anything land-based except other War Clerics or Fighters (the Aarakocra lose to Goliaths, roughly balanced odds against any other race). Can also drive off (but not kill) Aarakocra Wizards.

Pff. My army has agents in position as we speak to kidnap your leader and force you to surrender. Your leader dissappears down a mold earthed network of tunnels filled with traps and illusions. To get your leader back your army must now go down into a dungeon of my making in single file.

[MaxWilson]

Good call on the Goliaths being able to survive the Magic Missile spell, and on the ultity of Sleep. I'm thinking Aarakocra War Clerics or Fighters might be more dominant than the Aaracokra Wizards against a wider variety of enemies, and also have a lot more staying power. But Aarakocra Clerics or Fighters can't kill their land-based peers nearly as well as the Wizards can.

Would you agree with this summary?

Aarakocra Wizards: Can rapidly kill anything land-based, using all available resources.
Aarakocra War Clerics or Fighters: Can efficiently but slowly kill anything land-based except other War Clerics or Fighters (the Aarakocra lose to Goliaths, roughly balanced odds against any other race). Can also drive off (but not kill) Aarakocra Wizards.

No, I don't agree with that summary.

I think Aarakocra Wizards beat the Aarakocra War Clerics or fighters, not least because they can use Expeditious Retreat to ensure that they are the ones dive-bombing the clerics or fighters instead of vice versa. (Also, Healing Word is less useful in aerial combat, because you can't pop-up heal someone who just fell out of the sky.) And remember that nothing actually stops Aarakocra wizards from using longbows too--they will have lower to-hit but it's not like they don't have a ranged option to go with their Shield spell. I expect the wizards to do quite well in long-ranged archery duels against e.g. human fighters. Don't forget that they will also be better at concentrating their attacks via the aerial equivalent of goblin conga lines.

Spoiler: Aerial goblin conga lines

Show

You could wind up with 900 of 1000 human fighters more than 630' away from the Aarakocras and so unable to attack this turn, but with 500 to maybe a full 100 Aarakocras within 665' of the humans and able to therefore both attack at 600' and withdraw back to 635'+ range afterward, thanks to Expeditious Retreat and 50' flying speed. Result: Aarakocras are making 5x as many attacks or more.

Of course this only works if the DM allows everyone to have a very precise awareness of exact distance. It's fairly unrealistic actually.

Dive-bombing an alpha strike (when you've got both Magic Missile and Sleep) is a dominant tactic, and mobility gives you better odds of being the ones to dive-bomb, and wizards are better than fighters or clerics at mobility, therefore Aarakocra wizards dominate Aarakocra clerics and fighters. QED.

To put it another way, Aarakocra Wizards get to the high ground the firstest with the mostest, and that's how you win wars.

[col_impact]

To put it another way, Aarakocra Wizards get to the high ground the firstest with the mostest, and that's how you win wars.

The army that establishes the best spy network, that is the army that wins the war. Once you have eyes and ears on what the other army is doing, you win the war. WW2 was won by Alan Turing for example.

[MaxWilson]

The army that establishes the best spy network, that is the army that wins the war. Once you have eyes and ears on what the other army is doing, you win the war. WW2 was won by Alan Turing for example.

You've already established that you're not listening to anybody but yourself, so I have no reason to engage with you. Good day, sir.

[col_impact]

You've already established that you're not listening to anybody but yourself, so I have no reason to engage with you. Good day, sir.

No need for an ad hominem argument, my army simply outclasses yours. I outlined how my army can defeat any other and you have no counter. Check and mate.

[MaxWilson]

No need for an ad hominem argument, my army simply outclasses yours. I outlined how my army can defeat any other and you have no counter. Check and mate.

Ad hominem would be if I said, basically, "you're wrong because you're a bad person." This is "I'm not interested in persuading you of anything because you have been rude and close-minded."

[col_impact]

Ad hominem would be if I said, basically, "you're wrong because you're a bad person." This is "I'm not interested in persuading you of anything because you have been rude and close-minded."

Revealing my winning strategy should not be considered "rude". Ad hominem is when I bested you and now I am suddenly "rude". You are trying to conceal the fact that you simply lost to my better conceived army.

[Sigreid]

In the end it depends on what kind of war you are fighting and where. A war against a dwarf kingdom for their halls would be nearly impossible for a bird man army. A war for the mountain peaks would almost certainly go to the bird folk. Nearly any army that is prepared will defeat an army that has no idea the fight is coming.