Let's Build some PC Armies

[Amechra]

Why care about air superiority when you can rule the waves?

The Watery Horde

100 Triton Barbarians
Backgrounds: 50 Nobles, 50 Sages
Our charismatic leaders - what they lack in toughness, they make up for it by being able to talk to the fish that they set up as boundary guards for our watery lairs. They can also dump Fog Clouds all over the place to protect our Angry Boys from ranged attacks. No fair using ranged weapons!

250 Warforged Barbarians
Backgrounds: Undecided.
Our engineering core and some brutal fighters. I'm not set on what the "built-in" proficiencies are - still, they make excellent sentries (since they don't need sleep). They're slow down below in the deeps, but they make a solid first defense. Obviously, their second language is going to be Primordial.

350 Water Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: Undecided.
Our primary underwater forces. Concerted use of Shape Water can do some wacky things when you're surrounded by the stuff, and they'll have much better mobility under the waves than any invading force. They'll have little trouble capsizing boats and otherwise being a nuisance.

100 Air Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: 100 Outlander.
Our expeditionary forces. They can't speak underwater, but they can receive their orders. On top of that, they each have access to Levitate, which both serves as utility and a way to break up enemy forces. They serve as go-betweens between the Watery Horde and the Magmatic Brotherhood.

The Magmatic Brotherhood

100 Earth Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: 50 Criminals, 50 Pirates
The secret behind why the Brotherhood is so hard to catch - their ability to Pass Without Trace is somewhat frightening. They let our expeditionary forces strike into the heart of enemy camps without detection, letting us burn and pillage without fear of reprisal.

100 Fire Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: 100 Criminals
Stealthy blackguards with the ability to see in the dark and hurl Constitution-based fireballs. We don't like them, and they don't like us... but they're useful. Very useful.

---

Yeah, I know that the Earth and Fire Genasi break the "underwater" theme, but they were too good to pass up. That's why I made them their own separate force - a bunch of bandits that happen to be allied with the main horde.

Anyway, we pool money to buy at least a few of our Warforged some proper armor that they can Integrate (Integrated Scale armor easily gets them to 16-17 AC). Then we find a decent-sized body of water, and entrench. I hope you weren't relying on any sea-based trade!

[col_impact]

Why care about air superiority when you can rule the waves?

The Watery Horde

100 Triton Barbarians
Backgrounds: 50 Nobles, 50 Sages
Our charismatic leaders - what they lack in toughness, they make up for it by being able to talk to the fish that they set up as boundary guards for our watery lairs. They can also dump Fog Clouds all over the place to protect our Angry Boys from ranged attacks. No fair using ranged weapons!

250 Warforged Barbarians
Backgrounds: Undecided.
Our engineering core and some brutal fighters. I'm not set on what the "built-in" proficiencies are - still, they make excellent sentries (since they don't need sleep). They're slow down below in the deeps, but they make a solid first defense. Obviously, their second language is going to be Primordial.

350 Water Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: Undecided.
Our primary underwater forces. Concerted use of Shape Water can do some wacky things when you're surrounded by the stuff, and they'll have much better mobility under the waves than any invading force. They'll have little trouble capsizing boats and otherwise being a nuisance.

100 Air Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: 100 Outlander.
Our expeditionary forces. They can't speak underwater, but they can receive their orders. On top of that, they each have access to Levitate, which both serves as utility and a way to break up enemy forces. They serve as go-betweens between the Watery Horde and the Magmatic Brotherhood.

The Magmatic Brotherhood

100 Earth Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: 50 Criminals, 50 Pirates
The secret behind why the Brotherhood is so hard to catch - their ability to Pass Without Trace is somewhat frightening. They let our expeditionary forces strike into the heart of enemy camps without detection, letting us burn and pillage without fear of reprisal.

100 Fire Genasi Barbarians
Backgrounds: 100 Criminals
Stealthy blackguards with the ability to see in the dark and hurl Constitution-based fireballs. We don't like them, and they don't like us... but they're useful. Very useful.

---

Yeah, I know that the Earth and Fire Genasi break the "underwater" theme, but they were too good to pass up. That's why I made them their own separate force - a bunch of bandits that happen to be allied with the main horde.

Anyway, we pool money to buy at least a few of our Warforged some proper armor that they can Integrate (Integrated Scale armor easily gets them to 16-17 AC). Then we find a decent-sized body of water, and entrench. I hope you weren't relying on any sea-based trade!

My nation has 10 of every race in your army infiltrated. What do they tell me about your plans, weaknesses, choke points?

Can you double check that your army's races are even allowed per OP. Triton is Volo's, so that one is out, right off the bat.

[Sigreid]

The army that establishes the best spy network, that is the army that wins the war. Once you have eyes and ears on what the other army is doing, you win the war. WW2 was won by Alan Turing for example.

Not entirely true. While intelligence gathering does great things for helping make sure you spend your time and resources as efficiently as possible, it doesn't guarantee a win. WW2 was won by superior man power and manufacturing capacity.

[col_impact]

Not entirely true. While intelligence gathering does great things for helping make sure you spend your time and resources as efficiently as possible, it doesn't guarantee a win. WW2 was won by superior man power and manufacturing capacity.

Your historical analysis is incredibly flawed. The allied forces beat the axis because of the genius of one gay man. Once the Enigma code was cracked, the Germans started losing because the Allies could then strangle their war effort and target choke points. The Allied forces from that point on effectively read the Axis minds.

[Sigreid]

Your historical analysis is incredibly flawed. The allied forces beat the axis because of the genius of one gay man.

1. You clearly haven't done much military study.
2. Preference in horizontal pokey partners doesn't have any effect on anything.

[col_impact]

1. You clearly haven't done much military study.
2. Preference in horizontal pokey partners doesn't have any effect on anything.

I am hundred percent certain that my academic capacity to make the statement I made far exceeds yours. Go ahead and research Alan Turing, the Enigma machine, and the consequences the Axis powers suffered as a result of that. Let me know when you have more than an ad hominem attack to argue any counter point and I will happily engage in further discussion.

What point are you making with 2? Should I be interpreting that as a 'hate' statement?

[Amechra]

My nation has 10 of every race in your army infiltrated. What do they tell me about your plans, weaknesses, choke points?

Can you double check that your army's races are even allowed per OP. Triton is Volo's, so that one is out, right off the bat.

OP used Firbolgs, which are from Volo's, so I ignored that rule as not-thought-through-very-well.

Also, col_impact, I refuse to interact with your army unless you actually sit down and write up a nailed-down list. Having Schrodinger's army isn't clever, it's dull as heck and only exists so you can gloat about how much cleverer you are than everyone else.

(If I have to... my army casually challenges each-other to Rage-fueled duels to prove identities and test willingness to commit. Have fun with your weeny wizards¹ and their 8-9 HP!)

¹ Your original post never specifies a class, but I'm assuming Wizards.

[col_impact]

OP used Firbolgs, which are from Volo's, so I ignored that rule as not-thought-through-very-well.

Also, col_impact, I refuse to interact with your army unless you actually sit down and write up a nailed-down list. Having Schrodinger's army isn't clever, it's dull as heck and only exists so you can gloat about how much cleverer you are than everyone else.

(If I have to... my army casually challenges each-other to Rage-fueled duels to prove identities and test willingness to commit. Have fun with your weeny wizards¹ and their 8-9 HP!)

¹ Your original post never specifies a class, but I'm assuming Wizards.

I would just decline any such challenge and instead kidnap your leader at a time and place of my choosing and force you into an unwinnable position. It looks like I am the only guy here with any sense of actual tactics.

Sure, I will generate 1000 unique jedi warriors once this is more than just a thought experiment and there is an actual game to play. Otherwise my sketch outlines already the dominant strategy.

If my proposed solution is indeed better than yours then it is indeed 'clever-er'.

[Sigreid]

I am hundred percent certain that my academic capacity to make the statement I made far exceeds yours. Go ahead and research Alan Turing, the Enigma machine, and the consequences the Axis powers suffered as a result of that. Let me know when you have more than an ad hominem attack to argue any counter point and I will happily engage in further discussion.

What point are you making with 2? Should I be interpreting that as a 'hate' statement?

Point 2 was simply that what his preference was for partners is irrelevant to the discussion of the value of his machine, which was never disputed by me. Don't know how you turned that into a hate statement.

The best intelligence in the world doesn't win the war by itself. And as we learn more and more about what was really going on, the German use and abuse of drugs helped in the war effort too.

[Amechra]

Sure, I will generate 1000 unique jedi warriors once this is more than just a thought experiment and there is an actual game to play.

Sure, and I'll start ignoring you until you do so.

We're copacetic? Great.

[MaxWilson]

The best intelligence in the world doesn't win the war by itself. And as we learn more and more about what was really going on, the German use and abuse of drugs helped in the war effort too.

There's definitely value in having an Intel capability, but the nice thing is that since the dominant battlefield strategy appears to "Aarakocra wizards" anyway, you get that for free. Just have some of them learn Disguise Self, others learn Comprehend Languages, and all of them learn Find Familiar. (And of course Minor Illusion, Message, Mold Earth, etc. as-needed.)

Amechra makes a good point: it wouldn't be a bad idea to swap a handful of Aarakocras for Earth Genasi to give the army an extreme-stealth capability. 990 Aarakocras is plenty.

[JackPhoenix]

And remember that nothing actually stops Aarakocra wizards from using longbows too

The fact longbow isn't available starting equipment for a wizard stops them, just as it stops my rogues from having them, even if they are actually proficient.

[col_impact]

Sure, and I'll start ignoring you until you do so.

We're copacetic? Great.

Please do ignore me. I have outlined an unbeatable army and by ignoring it and offering no counter, that claim remains uncontested by you.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, Amechra's army just... Kinda screws yours over all the way. Your picks don't breathe water.

[MaxWilson]

The fact longbow isn't available starting equipment for a wizard stops them, just as it stops my rogues from having them, even if they are actually proficient.

Not so. Starting gold for a wizard is 3d4 x 10 gp, which is about 75 gp, which is more than enough to buy a longbow.

Yeah, Amechra's army just... Kinda screws yours over all the way. Your picks don't breathe water.

I'm skeptical about going all-in aquatic. Amechra's army is great for defending a waterway against invasion, but not particularly good at taking and holding territory on land, where the action is. Would be great in an archipelago/underwater campaign though.

[col_impact]

Yeah, Amechra's army just... Kinda screws yours over all the way. Your picks don't breathe water.

You make claims without substantiating them. Prove it.

[JNAProductions]

1000 Wizard Ghostwise Halfling, Wood Elf, Hill Dwarf, Gnome (or really from all the allowable races like a true school) Jedi Peace Corp

Jedis wil draw from a variety of backgrounds (like a true academy would) with care to assure we have enough healer's kits and potions of healing.

Cantrips from among Minor Illusion, [ranged cantrip], Mold Earth, Shocking Grasp, GFB, BB, Shape Water (ice cover), Friends

Default jedi will pack Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Find Familiar (flavored as a drone droid), Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic, Catapult, Disguise Self.

Some will pack from among Silent Image, Sleep, Charm Person to set up initial intrusion, cover, and paralyze tactics

Many battles will be won by digging networks of tunnels underneath opposing armies camp. Or just an illusionary fog rolling in and jedi disguised as the enemy (or child version of the enemy). Or just you know attack out of nowhere with the element of surprise and then disappear into the crowds or the mist. Jedi.

Each particular jedi will have at least one thing that is totally unique to that character such as racial feat, skill, tool, spell prepared so I have a giant swiss army knife of options when we burrow down to the individual jedi.

I see no tritons, water genasi, warforged, or air genasi listed.

Now, of course, you're free to change that-but as someone said earlier, schrodinger's army is cheating.

[JackPhoenix]

Not so. Starting gold for a wizard is 3d4 x 10 gp, which is about 75 gp, which is more than enough to buy a longbow.

Rolling for gold is not "starting equipment only".

[MaxWilson]

Rolling for gold is not "starting equipment only".

The PHB disagrees.

Starting Equipment
When you create your character, you receive equipment based on a combination of your class and background. Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this section. See the Starting Wealth by Class table to determine how much gold you have to spend.

[col_impact]

I see no tritons, water genasi, warforged, or air genasi listed.

Now, of course, you're free to change that-but as someone said earlier, schrodinger's army is cheating.

I indicated that I have 1000/n number of contingencies by race where n is the number of allowable races. My strategy is to spy, infiltrate, and overthrow. I pick and choose my engagements. No one has presented a counter so my army is uncontested.

[JNAProductions]

I indicated that I have 1000/n number of contingencies by race where n is the number of allowable races. My strategy is to spy, infiltrate, and overthrow. I pick and choose my engagements. No one has presented a counter so my army is uncontested.

Yes, because every single one of those thousand will, of course, never be caught. How could they be, when Disguise Self lasts an ENTIRE HOUR! And, of course, even if the unthinkable happens, and they do get caught, they will be guaranteed to get away and leave the opposing army absolutely NO suspicion that there might be more spies! Why, that's inconceivable!

Also, how are they even getting orders or communicating with the general? They're not high level enough for Sending or anything like that.

[Xetheral]

No, I don't agree with that summary.

I think Aarakocra Wizards beat the Aarakocra War Clerics or fighters, not least because they can use Expeditious Retreat to ensure that they are the ones dive-bombing the clerics or fighters instead of vice versa. (Also, Healing Word is less useful in aerial combat, because you can't pop-up heal someone who just fell out of the sky.)

Fair enough. The Aarakocra wizards will take more damage (or have less offense) because they can't cast Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Sleep in the same combat, but using Expeditious Retreat to get above the Aarakocra Clerics or Fighters should be enough to win.

And remember that nothing actually stops Aarakocra wizards from using longbows too--they will have lower to-hit but it's not like they don't have a ranged option to go with their Shield spell. I expect the wizards to do quite well in long-ranged archery duels against e.g. human fighters. Don't forget that they will also be better at concentrating their attacks via the aerial equivalent of goblin conga lines.

Spoiler: Aerial goblin conga lines

Show

You could wind up with 900 of 1000 human fighters more than 630' away from the Aarakocras and so unable to attack this turn, but with 500 to maybe a full 100 Aarakocras within 665' of the humans and able to therefore both attack at 600' and withdraw back to 635'+ range afterward, thanks to Expeditious Retreat and 50' flying speed. Result: Aarakocras are making 5x as many attacks or more.

Of course this only works if the DM allows everyone to have a very precise awareness of exact distance. It's fairly unrealistic actually.

That's a great tactic. You can probably even get all 1000 Aarakocra involved each turn by doing staggered dive bombing around the periphery of the enemy and then "standing up" and flying 50' horizontally. Given the low hit rate there might actually be a problem killing all the humans before Expeditious Retreat expires, but I did indeed underestimate wizards with longbows.

[col_impact]

Yes, because every single one of those thousand will, of course, never be caught. How could they be, when Disguise Self lasts an ENTIRE HOUR! And, of course, even if the unthinkable happens, and they do get caught, they will be guaranteed to get away and leave the opposing army absolutely NO suspicion that there might be more spies! Why, that's inconceivable!

Also, how are they even getting orders or communicating with the general? They're not high level enough for Sending or anything like that.

How long do false identities last? Permanent.

[JNAProductions]

How long do false identities last? Permanent.

That is an unsatisfactory answer, especially since it ignores a pretty crucial issue.

[col_impact]

That is an unsatisfactory answer, especially since it ignores a pretty crucial issue.

I am satisfied by my answer, and since I am the only one displaying advanced tactical knowledge and no one has offered any counter, I am going with Jedi as unbeatable strategy.

[JNAProductions]

So, how do you establish the identities to start? How do you know, ahead of time, which armies need to be infiltrated? How do you communicate orders to them once they're hidden, if they manage to get hidden?

Because currently, you're basically saying "I'm the smartest one and I know all the answers, neener neener!" and not actually showing any work.

[MaxWilson]

Fair enough. The Aarakocra wizards will take more damage (or have less offense) because they can't cast Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Sleep in the same combat, but using Expeditious Retreat to get above the Aarakocra Clerics or Fighters should be enough to win.

Yeah, the way I'd view this is that Shielding is better than dying, but knocking out ~2 enemy clerics with a Sleep spell is better than being forced to Shield. It's sort of like the strategy you mentioned earlier where Aarakocras who haven't Shielded on round 1 cast a second Magic Missile on round 2, except with no round 1.

Another alternative is to split off a third of your army and have them Longstrider the other wizards to save on spell slots. They'll be out of spell slots but you can still use that third of your army to shoot arrows or act as decoys (see below) or whatever.

That's a great tactic. You can probably even get all 1000 Aarakocra involved each turn by doing staggered dive bombing around the periphery of the enemy and then "standing up" and flying 50' horizontally. Given the low hit rate there might actually be a problem killing all the humans before Expeditious Retreat expires, but I did indeed underestimate wizards with longbows.

Yeah, but I don't want to lean too heavily on the tactic because it is pretty unrealistic to expect to judge distances to within 5'. Using it in actual play would harm suspension of disbelief.

I've seen it used in land battles, in ways that don't break my suspension of disbelief, e.g. coming just far enough out from behind total cover to shoot a few bad guys (ignoring partial cover because Sharpshooter) and then duck back behind cover, without ever giving the majority of the bad guys a shot at you. But it would be much harder to do that in a large-scale battle with some or all aerial combatants.

I have no qualms about using it more strategically, of course. "Threaten three soft targets to force the enemy to split his forces to defend them all, and then re-concentrate your forces and annihilate his forces in detail."

[col_impact]

So, how do you establish the identities to start? How do you know, ahead of time, which armies need to be infiltrated? How do you communicate orders to them once they're hidden, if they manage to get hidden?

Because currently, you're basically saying "I'm the smartest one and I know all the answers, neener neener!" and not actually showing any work.

Don't worry. All worked out. WW2 spycraft techniques hold up just fine in D&D.

[BarneyBent]

Just a point, OP ruled out Volo's Monstrous races, not all VGTM races. Firbolgs and Tritons are fine, Kobolds and Yuan-Ti are not.

As for countering the Jedi Army, just have a mathematically-appropriate number of soldiers with proficiency in Insight and Investigation. We work in a bounded accuracy system. Even the most proficient disguised wizards will be found out if you have enough opponents rolling checks. Even if every single Jedi wizard has proficiency in Deception and maxes CHA instead of INT, that's simply not enough to maintain any sort of long-term infiltration and would severely undermine both the "Swiss Army Knife" value and the soldiers' optimisation as actual wizards.

Jedi Army is cool but it's far from unbeatable. This is Sorcerer King ****.

[Ghost Nappa]

This is a challenge derived from some conversations my friends and I have. Let's see if we can build the most effective twelve armies possible, each of which consists entirely of 1st-Level characters with a PC class level. The army can have as many 1st-Level builds as you like, but each army must consist only of a single class. We'll say the army is 1000 strong. To prevent this from being a thread mostly about feat choices, I'm going to say no Variant Humans. Use standard array, no Volo's Monstrous Races. Starting equipment only. Use as much detail as you care to. (I don't bother with exact stat placements or skill choices in my example, but feel free to.)

*snip*
Now someone else try with a different class! This is intended to be a cooperative, rather than competitive exercise.

Firstly: While the Aarakocra Wizards mentioned earlier on in the thread are likely the most capable fighting force overall, the OP is somewhat unclear as to the logistics of the army. How far does the army need to actually travel for the fight? If you optimize the Wizard's like the way you would as an individual character, you should theoretically have a large number of 8 STR Birdmen stuck carrying their belongings over some distance. That's a maximum carrying capacity of 120 pounds per individual. I don't know if that's going to be enough for a war? You need to be able to carry food, tents/sleeping bags, and depending on where you're trying to invade, you may need to carry more.

Depending on the expected terrain, this is *not* an advantage. One of the other posters has already mentioned the waves, but D&D is home to a number of races and environments that are subterranean.
In the tight and thin caves below the surface, the mobility of the Aarakocra is wasted.

Granted, above ground, flight is undeniably the single most drastic advantage that can be offered. I don't think the ideal army should drop them at all, but I think composing all 1000 soldiers seems short-sighted given that there are no defined tactical conditions.

Notably, I think Aarakocra Wizards are the least likely for espionage to be effective on. Even Changelings cannot perfectly copy them. If they need to share information they can just fly into the air and discuss things above the ground: out of range of weapons, copycats, and wandering ears.

The prompt is also unclear to what degree the influence of a commander or higher level characters have during the campaign. Level 1 characters cannot communicate over long distances but even a Level 5 Cleric or Wizard can make a significant impact on coordinating with a fighting force.

tl;dr the prompt is very open ended and I want more information before I start just throwing out numbers.

• Are we using Encumberance rules?
• Are you allowing higher level characters as CO's, Generals, etc?
• What geography/terrain is the army expecting to fight on?