Let's Build some PC Armies

[col_impact]

You can't. Thunderwave doesn't damage objects. It'll also helpfully inform the opponent you're there.

Honestly, I agree you sound more and more like He-who-shall-be-banned.



It's worse than that. You don't add your proficiency to that check, and starter character can have +3 to an ability score at best, and that's assuming a race with Int bonus.



Exactly. Being able to target object is not the same as being able to damage that object. The rules says the DM decide if the object is immune or resistant to the attack, and gives an example of trying to cut a rope with a club. Burning through stone works about as well.

At the end of the day, I can use bludgeoning damage from light clubs if I need to. Armies can definitely sap. You aren't defeating the strategy, only the time it takes to move into position.

Firebolt works just as the rules say they do.

Conjure Elemental (Earth) scroll works just fine too. Erupting Earth scroll as well.

[Ghost Nappa]

Huh? Which ruleset are you following? I can use thunderwave to dig underground if I have to, in order to get into position.

Source, or it didn't happen.

Spell slots replenish remember. My army is unstoppable.

That assumes you are given time to long rest.

And yet it does by the rules. So it does indeed weld through rock pretty dan easily. If you have a problem with that you have a problem with rules.

Source? If I can't read such a thing from a published book, I won't believe it.

Between firebolt, shape water, mold earth, thunderwave, tenser's floating disk, alarm, catapult I can engage in completely assymetric warfare.

Never mess with a Jedi Academy. Suffice it to say that none of you are match for a Jedi Academy.

The closest thing you've done to show a counter to Longbows is the inclusion of Catapult. Assuming you have Line of Sight to a bunch of light rocks 60 feet out from your fortifications, the farthest you can shoot something is 150 feet, on par with Longbow's normal range. They can easily just move five feet back and continue plucking away at you. If you are going to continue to invest in scroll shenanigans (which by the way, I still argue is unrealistic and wouldn't work), we can just buy more arrows or even trick arrows.

Aside: The spell list seems hardly indicative of a Jedi.

It's worse than that. You don't add your proficiency to that check, and starter character can have +3 to an ability score at best, and that's assuming a race with Int bonus.

Oh. I didn't even notice that. You're right, Make that a 50-50 at best.

[JNAProductions]

What's the AC and HP of a glass vase, col_impact?

[col_impact]

Source, or it didn't happen.


That assumes you are given time to long rest.


Source? If I can't read such a thing from a published book, I won't believe it.



The closest thing you've done to show a counter to Longbows is the inclusion of Catapult. Assuming you have Line of Sight to a bunch of light rocks 60 feet out from your fortifications, the farthest you can shoot something is 150 feet, on par with Longbow's normal range. They can easily just move five feet back and continue plucking away at you. If you are going to continue to invest in scroll shenanigans (which by the way, I still argue is unrealistic and wouldn't work), we can just buy more arrows or even trick arrows.

Aside: The spell list seems hardly indicative of a Jedi.

Erupting Earth scroll works just fine. Firebolt digs through rock just fine. Light hammers work just fine. Minor Illusion/Shape Water/ Tenser's Floating Disc gives me full cover on demand which shuts off all longbows. Alarm means my army will never be surprised.

[col_impact]

What's the AC and HP of a glass vase, col_impact?

Per DMG p. 246, AC 13, 2 hp.

[JNAProductions]

Per DMG p. 246, AC 13, 2 hp.

Please read the rest of that section, and explain how you can convince the DM that the entire bedrock doesn't count as a Huge or larger object that you'd need serious manpower to dig through, not a piddly Firebolt.

Not to mention, a vase isn't ACTUALLY listed. Sure, it's blindingly obvious what it'd be by those tables, but that's not the same as being actually listed.

[col_impact]

Please read the rest of that section, and explain how you can convince the DM that the entire bedrock doesn't count as a Huge or larger object that you'd need serious manpower to dig through, not a piddly Firebolt.

Not to mention, a vase isn't ACTUALLY listed. Sure, it's blindingly obvious what it'd be by those tables, but that's not the same as being actually listed.

What does the very top of that section say? Bedrock is not one giant Borg block, but much smaller boulders packed on top of each other. Only castle walls are giant contiguous rock. Follow the rules.

[JNAProductions]

What does the very top of that section say? Bedrock is not one giant Borg, but smaller boulders packed on top of each other. Only castle walls are giant.

Do you actually think a DM would let you tunnel through bedrock with Firebolt? Honest question.

[col_impact]

Do you actually think a DM would let you tunnel through bedrock with Firebolt? Honest question.

Yup. It is 100% supported by the rules and in common sense. Firebolt is a laser, plain and simple.

Remember all you need is a bludgeoning weapon to eventually get through any rock you will find except for castle walls. That is on p. 246 in the rules. Sapping is unstoppable.

[JNAProductions]

Yup. It is 100% supported by the rules and in common sense. Firebolt is a laser, plain and simple.

...

Point a laser pointer at a rock. A pebble. A piece of paper. See how long it takes to burn your way through.

Hell, a Firebolt isn't even lethal against a 4 HP Commoner unless you roll an 8+ on damage! That's NOT a rock-melting laser. If it can make magma from rock, it'd be doing butt-tons more damage.

[col_impact]

...

Point a laser pointer at a rock. A pebble. A piece of paper. See how long it takes to burn your way through.

Hell, a Firebolt isn't even lethal against a 4 HP Commoner unless you roll an 8+ on damage! That's NOT a rock-melting laser. If it can make magma from rock, it'd be doing butt-tons more damage.

Let's stick to the rules. Remember, 10 dudes wielding hammers munch through rock per p. 246.

Firebolt eats through rock per the rules. The rules do what they say they do.

[JNAProductions]

Let's stick to the rules. Remember, 10 dudes wielding hammers munch through rock per p. 246.

Firebolt eats through rock per the rules.

Unless the rock is considered Huge or Gargantuan, in which case the DM has free reign to declare you need something more powerful, such as giant mining equipment, explosives, spells like Move Earth...

And the DM is free to grant resistances or immunities to material as they see fit. As well as assigning Damage Thresholds.

In other words, your strategy relies on an INCREDIBLY generous DM. You might as well say "Every one of my Wizards found a Luckblade on their travels!"

[col_impact]

Unless the rock is considered Huge or Gargantuan, in which case the DM has free reign to declare you need something more powerful, such as giant mining equipment, explosives, spells like Move Earth...

And the DM is free to grant resistances or immunities to material as they see fit. As well as assigning Damage Thresholds.

In other words, your strategy relies on an INCREDIBLY generous DM. You might as well say "Every one of my Wizards found a Luckblade on their travels!"

Nope. Just a DM who plays by the rules as they are, which is standard and expected of AL DMs. So an AL DM would be expected to uphold the rules as they are, which means firebolt munches through rock.

[JNAProductions]

Nope. Just a DM who plays by the rules as they are, which is standard and expected of AL DMs.

Please, do us all a favor and reread the rules. Nowhere does it state "Firebolt can cut through rock." Nowhere does it state bedrock is comprised solely of Large or smaller rocks. Nowhere does it state the world bends to the whims of the players, regardless of RAW or what makes sense.

[Amechra]

So does anyone else want to post an army list

[col_impact]

Please, do us all a favor and reread the rules. Nowhere does it state "Firebolt can cut through rock." Nowhere does it state bedrock is comprised solely of Large or smaller rocks. Nowhere does it state the world bends to the whims of the players, regardless of RAW or what makes sense.

DMG, p. 246, first section.

[col_impact]

So does anyone else want to post an army list

Building up a database now. Don't expect to see it until this is actually a format to compete in. I don't tip my hand.

[JackPhoenix]

Firebolt eats through rock per the rules. The rules do what they say they do.

You know what the rules do? This: "For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects."

You know what's not discrete, inanimate item? Bedrock. Per the same rules, Firebolt can't target it.

The rules also say this: "Use common sense when determining a character's success at damaging an object."

Common sense says that fire that can be compared to being "Burned by coals, hit by a falling bookcase, pricked by a poison needle", which all does 1d10 damage per the rules for improvising damage, won't do a thing to a solid rock.

[Ghost Nappa]

Let's stick to the rules. Remember, 10 dudes wielding hammers munch through rock per p. 246.

Firebolt eats through rock per the rules. The rules do what they say they do.

How so?

A "mote of fire" is small. Assuming you have 5 foot wide tunnel, 24 Wizards can shoot Firebolt at a 5 by 5, 25-square-foot wall once every six seconds. Assuming that a "mote of fire" is capable of affecting 1 square foot of area (an area somewhat larger than a standard piece of notebook paper), there is still one square foot of the wall that is not being targeted in that time.

The conditions for which Bedrock typically melt are most commonly found near the core of the planet. Now, Bedrock is absolutely breakable and I do remember that this is in fact, fantasy, and not real life, but you're doing this with a cantrip.

If this is possible with a cantrip, it's not one round thing. This is a days long process to excavate in terrible conditions (you are far underground to be poking at bedrock) and people are at risk of asphyxiation. Not just from the lack of clean air, but the introduction of magma that you are making to dig through the bedrock.

Where is this magma going by the way? Are you going to drink it or something?

So does anyone else want to post an army list

I like the sound of 1000 Triton Rangers. They're one of the more Extremophile combinations, can fight from a variety of ranges in multiple environments. I don't know if they could win any given matchup, but there's a cool versatility and well-roundedness from what I've seen, which I like in an army. They're only true weakness is how vulnerable they could be at night, but I think Rangers are sturdy and stealthy enough to still be difficult to completely surprise. Might swap some Tritons out for Wood Elves as Night Scouts if I thought experiment enough.

Look at best you are going to put me on Catapult and Chromatic Orb or a Conjure Elemental scroll. Those have no problem munching through bedrock. Let's face it Wizards can't be stopped.

We also seem to be overlooking that you simply won't have a castle. You have to purchase that. How much do castles cost? You don't get to have a free castle on bedrock. Lol.

You have not solved the unreliably and expensiveness of using Spell Scrolls beyond Level 1. Spell Scrolls are a 1 play move, and even then, they have an unavoidable risk of failure with Level 1 Wizards. Sure, it could work. But that doesn't mean it will.

If you're going to assume we can guarantee the results of a spell scroll, I'll replace one of my guys with a Wizard and give him a Wish Scroll. It's theoretically possible he makes the spellcasting ability check and say wishes for the complete rout of your forces, so it's perfectly fair to assume it succeeds and that the wish's result pans out exactly as I wanted, right? Man, I'm so glad we specified Level 1 characters OP.

[col_impact]

You know what the rules do? This: "For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects."

You know what's not discrete, inanimate item? Bedrock. Per the same rules, Firebolt can't target it.

The rules also say this: "Use common sense when determining a character's success at damaging an object."

Common sense says that fire that can be compared to being "Burned by coals, hit by a falling bookcase, pricked by a poison needle", which all does 1d10 damage per the rules for improvising damage, won't do a thing to a solid rock.

Look at best you are going to put me on Catapult and Chromatic Orb or a Conjure Elemental scroll. Those have no problem munching through bedrock. Let's face it Wizards can't be stopped.

We also seem to be overlooking that you simply won't have a castle. You have to purchase that. How much do castles cost? You don't get to have a free castle on bedrock. Lol.

[Aeriox]

You can’t target an object with chromatic orb, only a creature.

[col_impact]

You can’t target an object with chromatic orb, only a creature.

Catapult can, just fine. 3d8 magical bludgeoning will eventually get through anything, including the imaginary castle you didn't pay for. Wizards are good. I would not mess with my ghostwise halfling named Yoda.

[Aeriox]

So by that logic you would be able to tunnel with arrows, right?

[col_impact]

How so?

A "mote of fire" is small. Assuming you have 5 foot wide tunnel, 24 Wizards can shoot Firebolt at a 5 by 5, 25-square-foot wall once every six seconds. Assuming that a "mote of fire" is capable of affecting 1 square foot of area (an area somewhat larger than a standard piece of notebook paper), there is still one square foot of the wall that is not being targeted in that time.

The conditions for which Bedrock typically melt are most commonly found near the core of the planet. Now, Bedrock is absolutely breakable and I do remember that this is in fact, fantasy, and not real life, but you're doing this with a cantrip.

If this is possible with a cantrip, it's not one round thing. This is a days long process to excavate in terrible conditions (you are far underground to be poking at bedrock) and people are at risk of asphyxiation. Not just from the lack of clean air, but the introduction of magma that you are making to dig through the bedrock.

Where is this magma going by the way? Are you going to drink it or something?



I like the sound of 1000 Triton Rangers. They're one of the more Extremophile combinations, can fight from a variety of ranges in multiple environments. I don't know if they could win any given matchup, but there's a cool versatility and well-roundedness from what I've seen, which I like in an army. They're only true weakness is how vulnerable they could be at night, but I think Rangers are sturdy and stealthy enough to still be difficult to completely surprise. Might swap some Tritons out for Wood Elves as Night Scouts if I thought experiment enough.



You have not solved the unreliably and expensiveness of using Spell Scrolls beyond Level 1. Spell Scrolls are a 1 play move, and even then, they have an unavoidable risk of failure with Level 1 Wizards. Sure, it could work. But that doesn't mean it will.

If you're going to assume we can guarantee the results of a spell scroll, I'll replace one of my guys with a Wizard and give him a Wish Scroll. It's theoretically possible he makes the spellcasting ability check and say wishes for the complete rout of your forces, so it's perfectly fair to assume it succeeds and that the wish's result pans out exactly as I wanted, right? Man, I'm so glad we specified Level 1 characters OP.

I think the bigger question you need to answer is how you have a castle you didn't pay for. Lol.

[col_impact]

So by that logic you would be able to tunnel with arrows, right?

What logic? Are you saying Catapult doesn't work as it says?

Also, how did you guys get a castle? Clarify.

But hey I appreciate a challenge and I have proven I can plow into a castle with Catapult. Keep in mind if you get a castle I get a castle.

[MaxWilson]

Firebolt does not cut through rocks.

Technically in 5E even bare fists can damage rock. It's unclear at best, though, what happens when the rock hits 0 HP.

[col_impact]

Technically in 5E even bare fists can damage rock. It's unclear at best, though, what happens when the rock hits 0 HP.

Pulverized obviously. Objects are removed from the table once hp equal zero. At best they become difficult terrain.

[Ghost Nappa]

I think the bigger question you need to answer is how you have a castle you didn't pay for. Lol.

A few people seem to have pointed out the vagueness of my original post, that it didn't provide tactical specifics about what the army is required for. I suppose that my idea was not to build a perfect unit for a single, specialized purpose (although some classes are absolutely better suited to that), but a generally effective fighting unit that could respond effectively to many scenarios, such as might arise in a war.

The one sentence I wish people had taken more to heart (and for which I should have provided more clarification) is this one: "This is intended to be a cooperative, not competitive exercise." I guess what I meant by that is that I wasn't interested in figuring out which army of purpose-built PCs could beat another army of purpose-built PCs. That way lies bickering, and turns the conversation from building an army to be useful in a war to building an army to dominate in hyper-optimized D&D rulesfest.

Those considerations are why I preferred the Druid army. In an isolated 1000 vs. 1000 battle, I would perhaps prefer an army of Barbarians or Fighters; but given that I don't know exactly what enemy, terrain, or conditions I would be fighting, I went with an army that I thought could deal effectively with a wide range of logistical, strategic, and tactical demands

Bolded emphasis mine.

Apart from the fact that the scenario does not truly specify what environment or location we are fighting in, I don't think it would be too difficult for a fighting force of a legitimate army to get permission from an ally to deploy at one; or to not assume a fighting force this large couldn't muscle in on one somewhere along the way (or: shocker, use all of this money you're carpooling for your guys into a defensive structures). Forget being given one for the purpose of a scenario test. That would be ridiculous.

The OP's variety of scenarios makes it unclear how far some elements should be interpreted, but I would wager you are making more assumptions than is valid for a general examination.

We have no idea how some War elements would even work:

• Morale
• Casus Belli
• Win Conditions
• Environmental Hazards
• Economy
• Racial Availability (see: OP forgot Aarakocra existed)
• Logistics
• Politics
• Diplomacy
• Setting availability of magic

Admittedly, the last one is sort of a stinker: most casters don't work in a setting like Game of Thrones, and I feel like the thread in general has been under the tacit implication we weren't hard banning High Magic.

[MaxWilson]

So does anyone else want to post an army list

900 Wood Elf Fighters with Archery style. 600 of them have Chain Mail, Shield, and Longbow, plus Light Crossbow with 20 Bolts. 300 have Leather, Longbow, 20 Arrows, 2 Rapiers, and Light Crossbow with 20 Bolts. Arrows and extra rapiers get shared out across the army.

80 more High Elf Fighters with Mold Earth (30), Shape Water (10), Message (10), Minor Illusion (10), Create Bonfire (10), Light (10). Similar equipment mix as above.

20 Drow. Same equipment mix.

Wood Elves are the main combat force thanks to higher movement rate (35') which lets them actually chase down other armies and force them to engage, plus the ability to break contact and disengage when outnumbered. Mask of the Wild enhances stealth opportunities.

The High Elves and drow are the sappers, special ops, and nighttime specialists.

Everybody proficient in Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception.

If Eberron is an option swap all 300 of the leather-armored Wood Elves for House Canaith humans, for Magic Weapon.

[col_impact]

Bolded emphasis mine.

Apart from the fact that the scenario does not truly specify what environment or location we are fighting in, I don't think it would be too difficult for a fighting force of a legitimate army to get permission from an ally to deploy at one; or to not assume a fighting force this large couldn't muscle in on one somewhere along the way (or: shocker, use all of this money you're carpooling for your guys into a defensive structures). Forget being given one for the purpose of a scenario test. That would be ridiculous.

The OP's variety of scenarios makes it unclear how far some elements should be interpreted, but I would wager you are making more assumptions than is valid for a general examination.

We have no idea how some War elements would even work:

• Morale
• Casus Belli
• Win Conditions
• Environmental Hazards
• Economy
• Racial Availability (see: OP forgot Aarakocra existed)
• Logistics
• Politics
• Diplomacy
• Setting availability of magic

Admittedly, the last one is sort of a stinker: most casters don't work in a setting like Game of Thrones, and I feel like the thread in general has been under the tacit implication we weren't hard banning High Magic.

No problem, my jedi academy can beat you even if you get a free castle. That is how thoroughly dominant my build is. And I have no problem with any Aarakockra builds.