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Thread: Let's Build some PC Armies
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2020-03-21, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
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2020-03-21, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
I'm looking through Wayfinder's Guide, they do there unless that's illegal in this case?
Yeah they'll be walking anchors in the water but hey, it's something. Against fully aquatic opponents underwater they'll be outclassed but they should work fine for coastal, amphibious or naval operations.
Plus this is my chance to field a thousand HK-47s.
Oh, single class. Bummer. I guess i'd pick Cleric over Fighter and diversify through subclass.Last edited by Kane0; 2020-03-21 at 07:57 PM.
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2020-03-21, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
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2020-03-22, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Another way to stop magical infiltrations is equipment. Bards and wizards aren't proficient in medium armor and shields, which means they can't cast spells while using them, and if they only predent they have them, it's easily disproven: Disguise Self is not physical change, so something like hitting your shield with your weapon would be impossible to fake. Wearing armor all day has a long tradition in D&D.
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2020-03-22, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-03-22, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
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2020-03-22, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Both. If you observe the suspect, you'll notice any 'clipping issues', you'll notice if the sound doesn't come at the right time, and you'll notice if someone's casting Minor Illusion to fake the sound. You can also tell them to hit the shield in specific pattern, so MI sound can't be prepared in advance.
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2020-03-22, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2020-03-22, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
MI sound doesn't need to be prepared in advance, and doesn't require an action to control.
More significantly though, if you're close enough to detect clipping issues you're already too close--you've given up the range advantage which you otherwise would be able to rely on. So this is good only for preventing small-scale, long-term infiltration, which Disguise Self isn't good at achieving anyway. It won't prevent short-term Trojan Horse maneuvers designed to get close.
I think you're talking about something different than we are.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-03-22 at 03:11 PM.
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2020-03-24, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Let's try a sorcerer army, just for fun:
The Front Line - 300 Half-Orc Stone Sorcerers
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade
Spells: Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite [From the Metal Magic feature]
Equipment: Since Sorcerers only start with simple weapons from their starting equipment, let's give them all Spears, which they will wield in two hands for 1d8+Str. Stone Sorcerer grants proficiency in simple weapons, so great.
Notes: With the smite spells, the Front Line should be able to cause confusion in the front ranks, assuming a reasonable portion of opponents fail their saves. With Half-Orc and Stone Sorcerer abilities combined, the Front Line should be able to hold out for marginally longer than your average sorcerer.
The Phoenix Corps - 200 Tiefling Phoenix Sorcerers
Cantrips: Firebolt, Gust, Thaumaturgy [From Tiefling]
Spells: Burning Hands, Chaos Bolt
Equipment: No special notes here, just your arcane focus and a loaded crossbow.
Notes: Hanging back behind the Front Line, the Phoenix Corps blast their opponents with Chaos Bolts and Phoenix-boosted Firebolts, and enemies that get too close are pushed back by gust and torched with Burning Hands.
The Divine Bastards - 300 Protector Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerers
Cantrips: Firebolt, Mind Sliver, Light [From Aasimar]
Spells: Sleep, Shield, Cure Wounds [From Divine Soul]
Equipment: Again, no special notes.
Notes: Begin the battle by Mind Sliver-ing the enemy ranks, allowing the Front Lines to hopefully crash through, and continue the battle as medics or as a last-ditch effort against flying forces (Sleep on flying enemies would be interesting).
The Controllers - 150 Half-Elf Stone Giant Soul Sorcerers
Cantrips: Mold Earth, Frostbite, Resistance [From Mark of the Ordning]
Spells: Fog Cloud, Catapult, Entangle [From Mark of the Ordning]
Equipment: See above.
Notes: The Controllers seek to cause as much trouble for the enemy as possible, by Entangling the charging soldiers, Fog Clouding the ranged units, and Frostbiting the currently engaged ranks.
The Shadow Hand - 50 Changeling Shadow Sorcerers
Cantrips: Message, Poison Spray
Spells: Disguise Self, Comprehend Languages
Notes: The Shadow Hand are this armies spies and information-gatherers, using their unique abilities to pose as a member of an enemy camp if possible.
I really hope UA is allowed or this was all a waste of time.
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2020-03-24, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
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2020-03-24, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
The use of Disguise Self for infiltrations during a war scenario? Or did I miss something along the way? The wording of the spell implies that the person interacting with it realises it's an illusion. Even if you argue by that point they're already too close, how so? They've approached presumably the encampment guards and failed an identity validation, they are now at the front door of the enemy, significantly out numbered and probably not in battle formation. If they have been checked inside the camp I have to ask what the point of having that security measure only inside the camp is. If the other side is aware that DS is available, then it'd only be reasonable to screen their personnel through closely guarded passwords, languages and physical inspections at camp checkpoints (probably under archer supervision).
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2020-03-24, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
I think you're talking about person A touching person B when person B is using an illusion, and we are talking about person A asking person B to bang B's own weapon on B's (illusionary) shield when person B is using an illusion. That's why we're talking about clipping and making fake clashing sounds.
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-03-24 at 07:31 PM.
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2020-03-25, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
It comes down to who are the better archers.
The fact that longbows can target 600 feet away means nothing else is really going to be very relevant on the field. Sure there are going to be some engagements with heavy cover that can be used to fortify a position, but those guys under heavy cover are basically locked down by the archers. Nighttime only does so much to fix this problem: while many spells simply cannot be fired without being able to see the other guy, ranged attacks have no such complication, they have to "guess" where their target is, and one-on-one that's a great prohibition, but for two forces of 1000 men much less so: the archers all simply "guess" a different spot on the battlefield. And this is supposing the fighter-army doesn't have drow night-scouts ready to light up the other guys with faerie fire if they spot them leaving cover.
In actuality, night actually helps the archers because of the stupid way vision works with advantage and disadvantage. The advantage the archers get from attacking creatures that can't see them cancels out both their disadvantage from attacking something they cannot see and the disadvantage they get from attacking at long range. Plus any other sources of disadvantage they might have. The archers are better at hitting targets when they can't see them.
War clerics have been mentioned here, and you could get more mileage out of them by making half the army Forge clerics who supply them their weapons, for +1 to attack and damage, plus bless on everybody. It's a pretty strong contender. The forge guys form a tight front-line and give the war cleric archers 1/2 cover while the war clerics fire their +1 longbows at the other guys, rolling an extra d4 on the attack roll. And hell, since only 1/3 of them need to cast bless to cover the entire army, let's go ahead and have all the war clerics casting Divine Favor on themselves. Without it, one hit from a longbow is unlikely to kill (due to max HP at level 1), but with it, it becomes a distinct possibility. And killing even a handful of the other guys in round one when you take zero hard losses yourself is a massive benefit.
Cantrips: Clerics can do things like casting Light on the arrows for their first volley to light up the whole enemy army, again that whole "nighttime counters archers" thing is silly. Guidance means that the clerics will have more of their guys winning initiative. Even Thaumaturgy, for communication on a battlefield, is a significant boon.
Fighters are interesting at first glance because the fighting styles allow for what is effectively a phalanx formation via the Protection fighting style, but this falls apart once you realize all Protection does is assign disadvantage... which we already have, because the bulk of combat will occur at 600 feet and possibly at night. The archery fighting style's +2 to ranged attacks is outclassed by the clerics' +1 weapons + bless. Fighters' extra 2 HP is taken care of and then some by those same +1 weapons and Divine Favor.
The clerics will obviously beat out the fighters on healing: Second Wind is self-only and can't be used to wake up a fallen ally. It heals an average of 6.5 compared to a cleric's
Clerics win on logistics too: they can cast Purify Food and Drink and Create or Destroy Water, which isn't quite as useful for this purpose as druids' Goodberry but it's better than the fighters can manage, which is entirely reliant on the ability to live off the land, which isn't going to be easy if you're pinned down behind cover and under siege. You can help mitigate this by using Warforged as the bulk of your forces, but that leaves the clerics free to pick wood elves or centaurs or catfolk or some other highly-mobile race.
The idea of wizards being able to sneak around and infiltrate enemy forces with any kind of reliability is silly, not when you've got a force composed entirely of guys with +3 wis, insight proficiency and guidance on tap. The rogue army, with expertise in deception along with a race like changelings who can actually infiltrate worth a damn? Yes, absolutely they could pull it off, but not wizards.
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2020-03-25, 03:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Well I've been trying to read through several pages in hopes of not missing any rules.
That said- an army of 1000 Bards would be something to see indeed.
https://youtu.be/87xYGDR_eME?t=43
They might die, they might be grievously injured, but it'll be one hell of a show nonetheless.It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.
Original online work - I've Been Reborn as a Dungeon Monster?
Tvtropes
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2020-03-25, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-03-25, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Bards are the second best option for a Jedi Academy style build imho. Druid or Warlock is also a solid pick.
But to sort out which is best you start getting into questions of how exactly level progression works for armies.
For example, can armies progress to second level?
If yes, consider the ramifications of your choice.
Having access to 400-2000 Divination dice each day is insane for hit and run tactics. Or having access to 1000 brown bears is nothing to sneeze at either. Or 1000 troops with Jack of All Trades. Wow! And we haven't even mentioned 2nd level Warlocks with always on Invocations.
If leveling has an absolute cap at 1 then Wizards gets you the most bang for buck. If leveling goes all the way to 20 then Wizard is also arguably the best (with Bard and Druid possibly as good or better), but you will get a serious run for your money at certain levels versus similar builds. Sorceror is also very viable for those who are very experienced with D&D (high difficulty settings choice).
A wizard army that implements full cover, free illusionary feints to deplete your ammunition, and saps your encampment will be a rude awakening for you, sir. Mwahahaha.Last edited by col_impact; 2020-03-25 at 02:26 PM.
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2020-03-25, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
There's not much an army of wizards can do against a mass of clerics all cloaked in bless and readied resistance and sanctuary except run away. Which, granted, they can do pretty well due to expeditious retreat. But they would have to leave their cover before the clerics closed to 600 feet or they would get gunned down as they fled. Magic missiles wouldn't kill enough of them to justify the lives lost as the wizards retreat if they let them within 120 feet, and no other spells are seriously worth considering, seeing as it's very unlikely they would land against a blessed, sanctuaried dex-cleric with a buddy standing next to him readying resistance. Clerics are effectively anti-wizards, this frankly isn't really a fair matchup.
full cover
free illusionary feints
saps your encampment
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2020-03-25, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Clerics don’t get longbows though.
Edit: Does anyone else see the benefit of death clerics? Free doubled Chill touch against adjacent targets plus the rider is actually good against armies that would otherwise be using second wind/healing word. Toss in some sanctuary or other buffs during approach and you have a nasty bite.Last edited by Kane0; 2020-03-25 at 05:40 PM.
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2020-03-25, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
You're overselling this. Even if clerics do have longbows--although the OP later clarified that the gold option for starting equipment is not supposed to be used--even then it's more of a standoff or siege than a curb stomp. Wizards can dig trenches and erect cover with cantrips, and if clerics get close, Sleep and Magic Missile put them down very effectively.
Also the wizards can shoot back with longbows too, from behind partial cover.
So the clerical advantage is more about the wizards' difficulty assaulting the clerics in an open field, and the clerics' ability to create water (not food) and maintain a siege. But there's a lot of ways the cleric strategy can go wrong, especially at night, against wizards.
In a daytime battle in the open field, yes, clerics win handily. If the wizards fort up I'll call it a tossup: outcome depends on which general is better.
Good call. Worth considering.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-03-25 at 05:55 PM.
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2020-03-25, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2020-03-25, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
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2020-03-25, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
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2020-03-27, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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- United States
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Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
Reflecting upon how much certain strategies depend upon equipment, I'm seeing the value of the Guild Artisan background: versatile access to artisan's tools of every stripe provides the army with a lot more potential to expand on its options. Plus, the idea of a tradesman's association commanding its own armed forces has some very interesting role-play considerations.
The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.
What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.
Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.
Nothing is given so generously as advice.
We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.
-Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld
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2020-03-27, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2017
Re: Let's Build some PC Armies
an army of a 1000 halflings with their giant grotesque 5e heads.
class doesnt matter as they win by dying horribly as their deformed bodies long for death.