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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    After creating this thread, someone pointed out that there isn't much difference between the sorcerer and wizard chassis. This got me to dust off a revised sorcerer homebrew I made a year ago and touch it up. This isn't actually the first time I've posted about this homebrew, but I've since made a few changes.

    Without further ado: Greywander's Revised Sorcerer

    Things that have been added or modified are in blue text to make it easier to parse and see what's actually changed from the PHB sorcerer. Here's a quick summary of some of the changes:
    • Sorcerers now cast spells using sorcery points, rather than spell slots. Similar to the spell points variant.
    • Sorcerers get fewer sorcery points than the spell points variant, but regain some sorcery points on a short rest.
    • Sorcerous Paths let you gish, skill monkey, or just be a better caster, without needing to multiclass.
    • Various metamagic tweaks, including new metamagics, new ways to use existing metamagics, and more total metamagics.
    • Sorcerous Restoration is slightly more useful, and also not the only capstone.
    • Some tweaks to Draconic and Wild Magic subclasses, as they were lagging a bit behind XGtE subclasses.

    Still not sure what to do with Shaped Spell. I don't like either throwing in a bunch of math or having them look up area shapes and sizes on a table, but I don't really see any other options. I'm also still mulling over the exact mechanics of Wild Spell.

    Feel free to chime in with comments and suggestions.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    At the moment I haven't time to screen it all but it seems interesting. The first thing that jump on my eyes, anyway, is that the sorcerous path are a bit too much invasive. I will put them in a dedicated subclass.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX View Post
    At the moment I haven't time to screen it all but it seems interesting. The first thing that jump on my eyes, anyway, is that the sorcerous path are a bit too much invasive. I will put them in a dedicated subclass.
    I'll admit, the paths were thrown together pretty quickly, but I don't know that they're "invasive". I was thinking of the warlock's pact boons while designing them. It could also work to build a subclass around them, but that means you're locked into that subclass if you want that playstyle. Having the paths as separate, much like with the warlock pacts, allows you to mix them with different subclasses, creating a lot more build options.

    One of the thematic issues I have with the sorcerer that sort of lead to adding the sorcerous paths was that, unlike all the other classes (with the possible exception of, say, the cleric), a sorcerer is something you are, not something you do. Anyone can train to become a fighter, wizard, or rogue, but a sorcerer is born that way. To me, it would make more sense for sorcerers to be a race, or, more likely, a template that can be applied on top of a race. Making sorcerer a class is not that different from having monster classes. For example, instead of just becoming a vampire or werewolf, you'd have to spend class levels on a vampire or werewolf class to gain the respective powers of each monster.

    Now, it does make sense that by choosing to continue taking levels in sorcerer, that means you're specifically training to hone your innate magical ability, instead of, say, practicing your swordsmanship. So if you wanted to be a sorcerer who chose to be a warrior or thief, you could just multiclass out of sorcerer. But I wanted to allow the player to choose their "path" without needing to multiclass or grab specific feats. Maybe there's ways the sorcerous paths could be tweaked to be improved, or maybe they do need to be replaced with something else.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    KOLE's Avatar

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    That's funny, I've been doing some Sorcerer revising myself, off the forums for the meantime until I felt like I had a good chassis, and we've come up with some very similar solutions! I think this is a solid start- and probably better than my own ideas.

    I like that you included eschew materials- to me, that should be a baseline part of the class, since Sorcerers are innate spellcasters, why the heck should they need a wand?! I have long been skeptical of using the spell point variant for Sorcs since it just feels like too much. I think your idea of using it as baseline and reducing the amount of points is an excellent solution- much better than my own, which relied on standard spell slots, sorcery points that came back on a short rest (once per day), and the inability to use SP to make slots. Yours is elegant- but it might take some fine tuning.

    However, I have two complaints- for one, the restriction on 6th and higher spells is an absolute nerf. To me, this is really holding back the class. Wizards can sling 6th+ spells all day long and recharge their 6th level slot before the day is done. Sorcs get one 6th-9th slot and they're done for the day? This is not a good solution. Can one still spend the points to upcast a spell to 6th-9th level? That would help, but only a little.

    If you're concerned spell points allow this Sorcerer to sling too many high level spells, you either need to tweak SP costs to discourage it, or accept the possibility that a player can burn all their points for three high level spells and have to rely on cantrips the rest of the day. I'm honestly okay with that; but I understand why others may not be. Making it a short rest instead of long rest would help, but I think you need to scrap that entirely, as I would rather play a PHB Sorc rather than accept that limitation.

    My other complaint is the Sorcerer paths feel far too powerful and I have to agree, quite invasive. I think this is much better accomplished by making them new Sorcerous Origins, or integrating them in old ones.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    However, I have two complaints- for one, the restriction on 6th and higher spells is an absolute nerf. To me, this is really holding back the class. Wizards can sling 6th+ spells all day long and recharge their 6th level slot before the day is done. Sorcs get one 6th-9th slot and they're done for the day? This is not a good solution. Can one still spend the points to upcast a spell to 6th-9th level? That would help, but only a little.
    Only getting one spell from 6th to 9th is standard for the SP variant. That being said, I was not aware that Wizards could use Arcane Recovery to recover 6th level slots. Everything else caps at 5th level, so that feels like an oversight.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Only getting one spell from 6th to 9th is standard for the SP variant. That being said, I was not aware that Wizards could use Arcane Recovery to recover 6th level slots. Everything else caps at 5th level, so that feels like an oversight.
    You are right.
    Wizards cannot recover any spell slot of 6th level or higher.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    I like that you included eschew materials- to me, that should be a baseline part of the class, since Sorcerers are innate spellcasters, why the heck should they need a wand?!
    This one was actually a last minute addition. It was something I saw a while back in another homebrew sorcerer revision, and decided, why not? It is kind of weird that they would need a focus, given that their magic is innate, but I decided that an arcane focus could still be used, e.g. if you found a Wand of the War Mage or Staff of Power.

    However, I have two complaints- for one, the restriction on 6th and higher spells is an absolute nerf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Only getting one spell from 6th to 9th is standard for the SP variant. That being said, I was not aware that Wizards could use Arcane Recovery to recover 6th level slots. Everything else caps at 5th level, so that feels like an oversight.
    Amechra is correct, this is the standard for the spell point variant. When I first posted my revised sorcerer, there were no restrictions on casting higher level spells, and some people pointed this out. I tried added an escalating cost e.g. each time you cast a spell of 6th level or higher, the cost to cast another spell of 6th level or higher increases by 1 sorcery point. People still didn't think this was enough. When I recently revisited this homebrew, I decided that they were probably right, and it really needed to change.

    Just to be clear, though, it's not "one spell of 6th level or higher per long rest". It's "one spell for each level of 6th and higher". It's true that higher level casters will get two spell slots for 6th and 7th level, and I did consider allowing you to cast 6th and 7th level spells after a short rest, but it seemed like it would get to complicated. Maybe I can work something else out on that front.

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    My other complaint is the Sorcerer paths feel far too powerful and I have to agree, quite invasive. I think this is much better accomplished by making them new Sorcerous Origins, or integrating them in old ones.
    I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by "invasive", though I'm inferring it's something like, "this should be a different class". Perhaps you're right that they should be their own origin, a full spellblade subclass could be pretty cool. On the subject of being too powerful, let's focus on the Path of Meditation, as that's kind of the "default" option and what would likely be left over if paths got removed. Do you feel the Path of Meditation is too strong? I designed it in part to address one of the common complaints of the sorcerer (not enough spells known), while also playing into the concept of a spontaneous caster (only wizards can cast spells they don't have prepared, and even then only as rituals). Maybe the cost needs to be tweaked, maybe it needs to be limited to once per day (perhaps increasing to 3 times per day as you level?), or maybe the cost should escalate each time you use it until you rest.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    Neat, I like it, I'm in the works of making the sorcerer a half caster with just oodles of SP.

    I love when a sorcerer Homebrew isn't just a wizard.
    Last edited by SpawnOfMorbo; 2020-03-20 at 05:05 AM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Return of the Revised Sorcerer

    Just wanted to pop back in to say you're 100% right; my apologies for that oversight. I also thought full casters got more slots of 6th level and higher- another mistake on my part. With this in mind, I'll recheck your 'brew when I get some time!
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    My homebrew:
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    Circle of Ironwood, a true Gish option for the 5e Druid.
    The Ranger Remixed, winner of the 5e Base Class Contest VII!
    Mageblood, a Roguish Archetype adding a touch of inherent casting!

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