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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Allons, mon bon dragon, pourquoi s’en faire pour une simple langue ? Tu te rattrapes par tant de côtés.
    Uhhh... oui?
    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    But of course, the hard parts of the task are still (1) Roy destroying Xykon and (2) the other gods convincing The Dark One, who has a legitimate grievance against them. Compare to those, I think defeating Redcloak should be easy.
    New theory: The Dark One was presented as quite reasonable while alive, and much less so after deification (with reason, but still). Most goblinoids that we have seen are much more aggressively anti-human that TDO was while alive. We also know that belief shapes gods. Maybe some part of why he is less amenable is due to this, and if Redcloak harnesses his status as high priest and founder of Gobbotopia to change the goblinoid perception of him?
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    One thing Roy inherited from his father (and that he's apparently done a lot of work to overcome) is an unshakable belief that he's the smartest person in any given room and a need to make sure everyone knows it. Really glad he's made a fair bit of progress on that front.
    The same goes for his tendency to ignore other people’s problems..



    there's a solid chance that's also going to be MITD's reveal scene.
    Definitely.

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    Redcloak's niece is all things to all people.
    Every character is Redcloak’s niece. Except Redcloak’s niece; she’s actually Sabine.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    New theory: The Dark One was presented as quite reasonable while alive, and much less so after deification (with reason, but still). Most goblinoids that we have seen are much more aggressively anti-human that TDO was while alive. We also know that belief shapes gods. Maybe some part of why he is less amenable is due to this, and if Redcloak harnesses his status as high priest and founder of Gobbotopia to change the goblinoid perception of him?
    Ohhh, that's good. But how long will it take, does the world have the time required (holding on one gate only), and would TDO either not notice the effort or not try to interfere?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Uhhh... oui?
    Correct!


    New theory: The Dark One was presented as quite reasonable while alive, and much less so after deification (with reason, but still). Most goblinoids that we have seen are much more aggressively anti-human that TDO was while alive. We also know that belief shapes gods. Maybe some part of why he is less amenable is due to this, and if Redcloak harnesses his status as high priest and founder of Gobbotopia to change the goblinoid perception of him?
    I still think that TDO and Red will turn on each other before the end.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The uncertainty of the future remains intact. Will beating Xykon first truly work to convince Redcloak to listen? Or will it just suit Redcloak's needs?
    If they do it before the Gate ritual is completed, it screws over Redcloak. If they do it after, he might kiss them and toss them the phylactery himself.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaOldeWolf View Post
    Who would have though we would get some emptipnal moments between Roy and his sister.
    "Emptipnal" isn't a word. What do you mean here?

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Don't worry about it; your English is better that my French.
    *cough* And your English...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    *cough* And your English...
    Well there goes Morquard, he was eaten by a dragon and was never seen again.
    Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    *cough* And your English...
    I don't know what you're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Well there goes Morquard, he was eaten by a dragon and was never seen again.
    OK, that made me laugh.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Apatheism* ("not caring about gods") would probably be a better description. The Greenhilts don't question the existence of the gods. In OOTS-world (and other worlds where gods are demonstrably a thing), atheists would be the equivalent of rea-world flat earthers.

    *or maltheism if they came to the conclusion that the gods are bad people..
    Apatheists don't care what the gods think, but Atheists don't believe they are gods at all. They are, after all, merely really powerful wizards that figured out how to crowd source their magic. Fine line, I'll grant you, but I stand by my statement that it's one think to acknowledge gods exist, but give no damns about what they think, and another to label them not-gods.

    Same difference between those who ignore the king's law because they can't be bothered to follow it, and those who declare that there is no such thing as a king, just a guy with a metal hat who only gets to rule because his father wore a metal hat before him [bonus Galavant reference].

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Allons, mon bon dragon, pourquoi s’en faire pour une simple langue ? Tu te rattrapes par tant de côtés.
    OK, but where would he find any eels at this time of night?

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    "Emptipnal" isn't a word. What do you mean here?
    "Emotional"

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Airinyourtires View Post
    What if they use Julia’s modified Sending spell to contact Redcloak?

    I have no idea why I’m putting this here, as opposed to when she first explained it, but here it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Unless RedCloak is a blood relative of hers with an outstanding Blood Oath (and all signs point to "no and no"), that won't work. And the pipeline dream that that is a thing that can be fixed is the kind of dead end that many university projects run into, so I wouldn't be confident that that will be done in time.

    Grey Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Ah-ha! The mystery is finally resolved!

    Julia is Redcloak's niece!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Oh, Thor. I walked right into that one, didn't I?

    Grey Wolf
    Yes, yes you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by lenon3579 View Post
    The gods are just fancy alien wizards who managed to crowdsource their magic.

    Actually the best ever definition of what the gods are.
    Not really. {scrubbed} That's a modern fantasy/gaming idea come up with by people who want a reason for the gods to demand worship and aren't willing to accept, "Because that's what powerful people do, tell everyone else to bow down and ask what they should do and pray for mercy and forgiveness for their transgressions."

    In D&D land, and in many modern fantasy stories, that it what gods do. But that can't be the definition, {scrubbed}. A creator god for example must, of necessity, have had a lot of power prior to there being any worshippers.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-16 at 10:42 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    confused Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Well. I, uh...I expected better from Roy than that. He's always been a "big picture" kind of man. But here he is being selfish and thinking small. If anything, this is out of character due to the self-sacrificing nature we've seen him display in the past. Lawful Good and all that.

    He doesn't have the full story that Durkon got. He's not aware that all of Creation is in peril. It's the Dunning-Krueger effect in action. He's too incompetent on this issue to even be aware that he's incompetent. The gods have bigger fish to fry, like finding a way to put a stop to the Snarl forever. His anti-authoritarianism is misplaced, though I get the idea that's his Daddy issues talking. He's willing to screw over everyone so that he can accomplish his short-term objectives. Oh well, it's not the first time he's strayed from the path. We can only hope that he finds the way back before the end.

    But the Oracle, who has never been wrong, has said Elan will get a happy ending, so we don't have to worry about the world being destroyed.
    Last edited by Finagle; 2020-03-16 at 10:45 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    In D&D land, and in many modern fantasy stories, that it what gods do. But that can't be the definition, {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. A creator god for example must, of necessity, have had a lot of power prior to there being any worshippers.
    I did like that in Forgotten Realms, this was a consequence of the actual creator deity just tired that his god-children where behaving like children rather than gods. "You use your worshipers as playthings? Well, you better quit it, because now you only get the power they give you."

    I didn't much enjoy the novels, but as a starting concept, I did like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm just wondering what is Durkon's point of view on this matter
    my first PC was a dwarven cleric

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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Not really. {scrub the post, scrub the quote} That's a modern fantasy/gaming idea come up with by people who want a reason for the gods to demand worship and aren't willing to accept, "Because that's what powerful people do, tell everyone else to bow down and ask what they should do and pray for mercy and forgiveness for their transgressions."
    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-16 at 10:45 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Apatheists don't care what the gods think, but Atheists don't believe they are gods at all. They are, after all, merely really powerful wizards that figured out how to crowd source their magic. Fine line, I'll grant you, but I stand by my statement that it's one think to acknowledge gods exist, but give no damns about what they think, and another to label them not-gods.
    But they don't label them "not-gods". They just get rid of the philosophical baggage. The Greenhilts keep calling them gods and acknowledge their existence they just think that the term god does not imply more than "immortal alien wizards who figured out a way to crowd source their magic [by creating the world]".

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Same difference between those who ignore the king's law because they can't be bothered to follow it, and those who declare that there is no such thing as a king, just a guy with a metal hat who only gets to rule because his father wore a metal hat before him [bonus Galavant reference].
    That's precisely what a king is though. A guy who says that the king rules by inheritance rather than by being a special person is not denying the existence the king.
    Likewise if I say that humans are just cells who banded together for feeding, reproduction and survival purposes, I am not denying that humans are a thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    OK, but where would he find any eels at this time of night?
    Pretty sure it's morning where he lives.
    Yes I know it's a reference to... something. Can't be bothered to look it up right now.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by P.LOC View Post
    I'm just wondering what is Durkon's point of view on this matter
    Thor is the best. And his buddy for life.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-03-16 at 10:52 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But they don't label them not gods. They just get rid of the philosophical baggage. The Greenhilts keep calling them gods and acknowledge their existence they just think that the term god does not imply more than "immortal alien wizards who figured out a way to crowd source their magic [by creating the world]".
    The philosophical baggage is what makes them gods and not powerful wizards. An apatheist acknowledges but ignores the baggage. An Atheist discards it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's precisely what a king is though.
    No, it really is not. It is in modern parlance, because kings are no longer relevant social constructs, but that didn't use to be the case.
    ETA: and that's all I'll say here, because down that route is politics. And religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Pretty sure it's morning where he lives.
    Yes I know it's a reference to... something. Can't be bothered to look it up right now.
    There is two references, actually. One is the standard "the only sentence I know in foreign language is "my hovercraft is full of eels"", and the other is a Pinky and the Brain reference where Pinky is completely out of touch with what the Brain is saying (in response to the famous "Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?").

    And that's another frog dissected, to the enjoyment of no-one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Man, Roy is so mellow now. Wonder if this is a kind of stress response, trying to act overly relaxed.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The philosophical baggage is what makes them gods and not powerful wizards. An apatheist acknowledges but ignores the baggage. An Atheist discards it.
    That doesn't make sense to me. However I fear that delving deeper would get us into naughty territorry. so I suggest that we agree that we uses slightly different definitions and leave it at that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it really is not. It is in modern parlance, because kings are no longer relevant social constructs, but that didn't use to be the case.
    Even when they were relevant social constructs, they were guys who wore crowns on their heads and got to rule because theeir father did (legally, at least, in practice army-size was a more influnetial factor) and there wasn't anything actually making them different from anybody else of comparable background.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    There is two references, actually. One is the standard "the only sentence I know in foreign language is "my hovercraft is full of eels"
    Where is that one from?
    and the other is a Pinky and the Brain reference where Pinky is completely out of touch with what the Brain is saying.
    A "are you thinking what I am thinking" joke, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And that's another frog dissected, to the enjoyment of no-one.
    We may want to start raising* some of them to keep up with the mortality rate around here.


    *What's the noun for what a farmer does when they get some animals to reproduce so they have more animals later?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Well. I, uh...I expected better from Roy than that. He's always been a "big picture" kind of man. But here he is being selfish and thinking small. If anything, this is out of character due to the self-sacrificing nature we've seen him display in the past. Lawful Good and all that.
    It's not... quite that bad an attitude. If he takes down Redcloak, then the goal changes to "Find The Dark One's new high priest and convince them and get them up to at least level 17." Strictly speaking, they don't need Redcloak, they need a level 17+ Cleric of The Dark One. If Redcloak has his hands on the End World lever, it's arguably better to kick the can down the road than so there's still a purple-quiddity god out there to work with at all.

    Plus, it's not his call to make to decide if everyone in the world should sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good. He's trying to protect the helpless which, at the moment, includes "everyone in the world helpless against world-shattering forces."

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    He doesn't have the full story that Durkon got. He's not aware that all of Creation is in peril.
    Do we know that he doesn't know what Durkon knows? Up until this comic, it was an open question if Durkon had told any of the rest of the Order anything that he learned in the afterlife. I don't see any reason for him to give Roy the new plan, but withhold the understanding of what's at stake.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Where is that one from?
    Tvtropes has your back

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    A "are you thinking what I am thinking" joke, I guess.
    The standard answer to it, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What's the noun for what a farmer does when they get some animals to reproduce so they have more animals later?
    Animal husbandry:
    Quote Originally Posted by Feet of Clay, Terry Pratchett
    Sergeant Colon went back to his desk, surreptitiously opened his drawer and pulled out the book he was reading. It was called Animal Husbandry. He’d been a bit worried about the title - you heard stories about strange folk in the country - but it turned out to be nothing more than a book about how cattle and pigs and sheep should breed.
    Now he was wondering where to get a book that taught them how to read
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Roy and Julia's interactions are so sweet.

    Seeing Roy and Redcloak verbally duke it out would be pretty amazing, but I'm betting that Redcloak's going to take the OOTS' offer as an alliance (the more against Xykon the better), orrr intervene at a crucial moment in the OOTS vs Xykon fight, since there's no way the OOTS can take Xykon down by themselves.

    I have no idea where MiTD, Oona, and the paladins fit in this scenario.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    There is two references, actually. One is the standard "the only sentence I know in foreign language is "my hovercraft is full of eels"", and the other is a Pinky and the Brain reference where Pinky is completely out of touch with what the Brain is saying (in response to the famous "Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?").

    And that's another frog dissected, to the enjoyment of no-one.

    Grey Wolf
    I appreciated the hovercraft-ells note, since I hadn't heard that one before. Also, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Brain decided to just go ahead and do whatever Pinky was thinking of. They certainly had the free time.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    It's not... quite that bad an attitude. If he takes down Redcloak, then the goal changes to "Find The Dark One's new high priest and convince them and get them up to at least level 17."
    And do that without TDO deciding he doesn't like that the new HPOTDO is working against The Plan and thus denying them spells.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Man, Roy is so mellow now. Wonder if this is a kind of stress response, trying to act overly relaxed.
    Or he may still be partly hungover and is trying to keep calm to keep the pain down.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Well. I, uh...I expected better from Roy than that. He's always been a "big picture" kind of man. But here he is being selfish and thinking small. If anything, this is out of character due to the self-sacrificing nature we've seen him display in the past. Lawful Good and all that.
    "Big picture" means different things for different people. Sacrificing the world for hypothetical future worlds isn't more big picture than his current plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    He doesn't have the full story that Durkon got. He's not aware that all of Creation is in peril.
    It's not. Worst case scenarion is the cycle continues as it has always done. Okay there's an even worse case scenarion : "TDO unleashes the Sanrls on the gods destroying any chance of makinga next world" but Roy's intened plan of action would stop that if it worked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    It's the Dunning-Krueger effect in action. He's too incompetent on this issue to even be aware that he's incompetent. The gods have bigger fish to fry, like finding a way to put a stop to the Snarl forever.
    On the contrary, most gods only care about themselves. Roy (and Thor) want to save every mortal living right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    His anti-authoritarianism is misplaced, though I get the idea that's his Daddy issues talking. He's willing to screw over everyone so that he can accomplish his short-term objectives. Oh well, it's not the first time he's strayed from the path. We can only hope that he finds the way back before the end.
    You do remeber that according to Thor The Dark One has very little chance of surving to the next world? If Redcloak cannot be made to listen he must not succeed.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Ah, the Mounty Pythons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The standard answer to it, yes.



    Animal husbandry:
    Thanks.

    Though, I'm not sure how to work that in a sentence:"We should start a husbandry of frogs" sounds wrong and not only for the right reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Man, Roy is so mellow now. Wonder if this is a kind of stress response, trying to act overly relaxed.
    Look either they live or everyone dies what is there to worry about?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-03-16 at 11:24 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    And do that without TDO deciding he doesn't like that the new HPOTDO is working against The Plan and thus denying them spells.
    Well, there's a good reason it's plan B. (Also, maybe I put those steps in the wrong order. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    On the contrary, most gods only care about themselves. Roy (and Thor) want to save every mortal living right now.
    Indeed. Most of the gods who aren't trying to work with TDO have excuses that boil down to, "Well, it's not a perfect solution, so I refuse to help solve the problem at all."

    Let's face, that's much more petty, selfish attitude than anything Roy's said here.
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2020-03-16 at 11:36 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    I am really enjoying this Roy/Julia interaction. Much more than Nale/Elan as far as siblings go in this comic.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Though, I'm not sure how to work that in a sentence:"We should start a husbandry of frogs" sounds wrong and not only for the right reasons.
    You can say "frog breeding". Animal husbandry is the vague official term that nobody use.
    Except munchkins, who weaponize the vagueness.
    Last edited by Cazero; 2020-03-16 at 11:48 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    Well. I, uh...I expected better from Roy than that. He's always been a "big picture" kind of man. But here he is being selfish and thinking small. If anything, this is out of character due to the self-sacrificing nature we've seen him display in the past. Lawful Good and all that.

    He doesn't have the full story that Durkon got. He's not aware that all of Creation is in peril. It's the Dunning-Krueger effect in action. He's too incompetent on this issue to even be aware that he's incompetent. The gods have bigger fish to fry, like finding a way to put a stop to the Snarl forever. His anti-authoritarianism is misplaced, though I get the idea that's his Daddy issues talking. He's willing to screw over everyone so that he can accomplish his short-term objectives. Oh well, it's not the first time he's strayed from the path. We can only hope that he finds the way back before the end.

    But the Oracle, who has never been wrong, has said Elan will get a happy ending, so we don't have to worry about the world being destroyed.
    I'm not sure you could call it selfish if his main motivation is protecting the people who are currently alive.

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