OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

[Schroeswald]

The problem is canonically two out of the big three are immune. They'll just have to leave the beastmaster and her Warg if they die of it.

And also Redcloak is a cleric and as such can cast Cure Disease, making everyone very quickly cured.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Eugene is so self-absorbed that the gods themselves are little more than more powerful versions of him.

Yep! I mean, I guess it's possible "wizard" was just a random word choice on Julia's part, but somehow I can't see Eugene theorizing the gods are powerful sorcerers or clerics or whatnot.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I guess it's just me, but the strip just comes across as the latest of a regular periodic screed of "gods and religion are bad and you are stupid if you cling to them" that the author keeps inserting, using the OotS story as metaphor/allegory/etc. to say the same about real life. It's totally his right to have that belief and to put it forth, I just find it grating and (ironically) preachy.

Also, by dramatic convention, we now undoubtedly know that destroying Xykon first and then forcing Redcloak into an arrangement is not what's going to happen, because it's been openly discussed. Something else will happen; Redcloak may fall first, or he may turn on Xykon somehow, I don't know, just that their loyalty is so shaky that it will not survive to the end. And there is the uber-powerful IFCC still to reveal their hand and maybe, maybe be thwartable, not to mention whatever mystery faction has carried off the paladins.

I can't help the sense that Redcloak is, at his core, so virulently anti-humanoid that whatever alliance Roy cares to potentially forge with him will not last. Mr. Burlew has already said elsewhere that the villains in this story are done in by their own choices and their own refusal to change for the better. I can only get the sense that in the end, Redcloak's venomous hatred of humanoids will win out and bring him to his doom. We already have the Monster as a "team evil member who is working towards reform" character, so Redcloak turning good would just be a pale eleventh-hour retread of that.

To paraphrase Adm. Painter from The Hunt for Red October, this business will get out of control; it will get out of control and the Order (and the world) will be lucky to live through it.

[M.A.D]

So, anyone think Julia might be compromised? Sounds like something Tarquin and Co. would do, starting from Julia to get to Roy. It feels to me like she might be captured by T., and he is forcing her to have this conversation with Roy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I guess it's just me, but the strip just comes across as the latest of a regular periodic screed of "gods and religion are bad and you are stupid if you cling to them" that the author keeps inserting, using the OotS story as metaphor/allegory/etc. to say the same about real life. It's totally his right to have that belief and to put it forth, I just find it grating and (ironically) preachy.

You seem to have missed every scene involving Durkon, Minrah and Thor, and just how happy their belief in him it makes them, and indeed how it encourages them to be the very best person they can be.

Grey Wolf

[NihhusHuotAliro]

This perspective is one that is sort of alien to me. The fact that you'll just get hungry again doesn't make eating a delicious meal pointless. Nor does the fact that, one way or another, every book ever written will eventually be rendered unreadable make the act of writing pointless either. Those soul get to live a life, enjoy art, find love, have kids, accomplish goals, and then move onto an afterlife that aligns with their ideals. We know Celestia in particular has the ascension up the mountain as a voluntary thing, that souls undertake when they outgrow the things that bind them to the world.

In truth, it boils down to real-life religious and philosophical matters best not discussed on this forum.

It's kind of like how, when you first learn about Entropy, when you first learn that even the stars eventually go out, it's utterly shattering (or at least it was for me).

Permanence is comforting to me. I find the idea of souls not being permanent absolutely terrifying and too bleak to fully engage with.

EDITED TO ADD:

So, anyone think Julia might be compromised? Sounds like something Tarquin and Co. would do, starting from Julia to get to Roy. It feels to me like she might be captured by T., and he is forcing her to have this conversation with Roy.

She does seem to have a strange amount of ellipses in this strip. You might be on to something.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As far as I know, that information (that souls are essentially glorified batteries and are not eternal) comes from the author's forum posts, rather than anything within the comic itself.

Canon: The gods slowly consume souls to power the outer planes & the afterlives.

Grey Wolf

[TheNecrocomicon]

You seem to have missed every scene involving Durkon, Minrah and Thor, and just how happy their belief in him makes them, and indeed how it encourages them to be the very best person they can be.

It seems like that positive angle has only been in there since late in the last book. Before that, the outlook was pretty much neutral to negative across the board, ranging from "gods are shortsighted blundering fools" to "gods are destructive jerkasses" with basically no exceptions.

It only appears to be Thor and Loki who care about actually ending the Snarl, and Loki seems to be in it more to try and keep his daughter Hel alive than out of any actual concern for mortal beings. The Twelve Gods of the South might care because they collectively voted no to the world's destruction and intervened to de-power Miko when she destabilized Azure City's gate, but two data points hardly strikes me as conclusive, especially after what they let the South's paladins get away with in the past.

Thor certainly seems to be a good guy, finally, after multiple books of being portrayed as largely oblivious. And he seems to be far and away the best of the lot.

[Peelee]

It seems like that positive angle has only been in there since late in the last book. Before that, the outlook was pretty much neutral to negative across the board, ranging from "gods are shortsighted blundering fools" to "gods are destructive jerkasses" with basically no exceptions.

O-Chul is remarkably devout, and has been in the strip for quite some time now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It seems like that positive angle has only been in there since late in the last book. Before that, the outlook was pretty much neutral to negative across the board, ranging from "gods are shortsighted blundering fools" to "gods are destructive jerkasses" with basically no exceptions.

No, and I'm sorry to say that you are displaying a shocking amount of cherry-picking. Thor has been going out of his way to assist Durkon from the start - for example, the time he bent the rules to help Durkon in the battle against the inmune-to-everything-except-sonic trees.

The gods have only been a major part of the story since the last book anyway, so the positive angle was shown at the same time as the negative one.

Loki seems to be in it more to try and keep his daughter Hel alive than out of any actual concern for mortal beings.

Quite the contrary. Sorry, but that is a gross misrepresentation of Loki's position, and it weakens all your other assertions.

The Twelve Gods of the South might care because they collectively voted no to the world's destruction and intervened to de-power Miko when she destabilized Azure City's gate, but two data points hardly strikes me as conclusive.

Given your original argument depended in there being NO examples, and I've already pointed out like three or four, yes, it is conclusive. OotS is not some preachy pro-atheistic rant, like you claimed. It is a story with complex characters some of which are devout, and some of which are atheists. And you seem to be cherry-picking the examples that offend you in order to be claim some screed is going on - not unlike the people who cherry-picked female characters or non-het characters and claimed that those were the view points being rammed down their throats. And you are as wrong about your chosen subject as they were about theirs.

If anything can be said is the sheer amount of daddy issues in the main cast, something all too common in American media (to the point that I've seen commercials in other countries making fun of it), and by Rich's own admission, that was an outgrowth of random comments his characters made before there was a plot rather than any kind of message he was trying to send.

ETA: Found it:

I wish I could claim that this was some sort of statement about men and fathering and such, but the fact is it just sort of happened that way. The roles of the three human characters' parents were decided within the first 50 strips, long before I had even conceived any of the plots that are happening now (or even the main Gate plot). Haley told us that her father was a thief back in #8 in what was a throwaway joke; Roy's dad showed up just seven strips later. I have no idea why I used fathers for both, but it didn't matter at the time. There was no plot, no inner turmoil, just a bunch of D&D characters out to fight a lich.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

In truth, it boils down to real-life religious and philosophical matters best not discussed on this forum.

It's kind of like how, when you first learn about Entropy, when you first learn that even the stars eventually go out, it's utterly shattering (or at least it was for me).

Permanence is comforting to me. I find the idea of souls not being permanent absolutely terrifying and too bleak to fully engage with.

True enough, it probably isn't the place for getting too into it. I will simply say that learning that did not crush me, personally, and there are those who disagree.

As far as Tarquin capturing Julia, put me down for the likelihood of that being the case falling somewhere between Xykon getting a heel face turn and the world getting eaten by the snarl in a downer ending. The whole point of the way in which Tarquin was defeated is that he's not important, he won't be a legend, and the party will silently kick his butt off-screen later.

[Ruck]

Y'know I didn't even realize this was you at first and I knew that link was to your MitD post before clicking the link. I do agree with you on all this completely though

That's the kind of endorsement that keeps me writing.

New theory: Eric died when Eugene was trying to research a new spell, Backfire Shield.

I hope he at least got a free feat in Improved Irony out of it.

[Peelee]

I hope he at least got a free feat in Improved Irony out of it.

Nah, for Eugene that has Blindsight as a pre-req.

[TheNecrocomicon]

O-Chul is remarkably devout, and has been in the strip for quite some time now.

You're right, and I never denied that some believers have indeed been portrayed as good people -- O'Chul, Lien, Hinjo, Durkon and others. The difference is that the followers are not their gods, and their gods have, by and large, basically been characterized as uncaring to wantonly destructive with very few exceptions.

No, and I'm sorry to say that you are displaying a shocking amount of cherry-picking. Thor has been going out of his way to assist Durkon from the start - for example, the time he bent the rules to help Durkon in the battle against the immune-to-everything-except-sonic trees.

The gods have only been a major part of the story since the last book anyway, so the positive angle was shown at the same time as the negative one.

Quite the contrary. Sorry, but that is a gross misrepresentation of Loki's position, and it weakens all your other assertions.

Given your original argument depended in there being NO examples, and I've already pointed out like three or four, yes, it is conclusive. OotS is not some preachy pro-atheistic rant, like you claimed. It is a story with complex characters some of which are devout, and some of which are atheists. And you seem to be cherry-picking the examples that offend you in order to be claim some screed is going on - not unlike the people who cherry-picked female characters or non-het characters and claimed that those were the view points being rammed down their throats. And you are as wrong about your chosen subject as they were about theirs.

Sure, and then Thor went right back to getting drunk, pawing Sif, and not really caring if "the dwarf lives or dies" right afterwards, if I recall. Still callous behaviour, even if he did have some fun with a divinely empowered lightning strike and thunderclap in the moment.

The gods certainly have only been a major part of the story since the last book, but what gives me this sense is not just that recent period, but their sporadic appearances beforehand as well. Don't get me wrong, I am glad for the recent revelations showing how Thor definitely does care and whatever little shaky coalition he's managed to pull together sorta-does as well, and the potential for others on their level to come on board with saving the world and stopping the Snarl.

The positive deific portrayals just seem to me to have been definitely in the minority over the life of OotS, the exceptions to the rule, by a substantial proportion relative to the callous and negative portrayals. I overreacted when I wrote "basically no exceptions", but so be it, I'm not going back and sweeping that under the carpet just to unclamp the wolf's jaws from my leg for what feels like the thousandth time.

[Alex Warlorn]

What Roy and Julia's dad taught them is a load of minotaur.

It's a common misconception among wizards when thinking about the divine, they really can't comprehend the gods are NOT just "super duper powerful wizards" but are actually fundamental pillars of creation who deserve respect for THAT burden they bear. (Yes, even Hel and Loki.)

And Roy REALLY missed the point if he thinks it was "throw us under the bus" it was more like "GET THE KIDS OUT THE POOL BECAUSE THE SHARK BREAKS OUT OF ITS CAGE AGAIN!"

I know I'm going to be the minority here. But for this moment in time, I don't care.

[Peelee]

You're right, and I never denied that some believers have indeed been portrayed as good people -- O'Chul, Lien, Hinjo, Durkon and others. The difference is that the followers are not their gods, and their gods have, by and large, basically been characterized as uncaring to wantonly destructive with very few exceptions.



Sure, and then Thor went right back to getting drunk, pawing Sif, and not really caring if "the dwarf lives or dies" right afterwards, if I recall. Still callous behaviour, even if he did have some fun with a divinely empowered lightning strike and thunderclap in the moment.

The gods certainly have only been a major part of the story since the last book, but what gives me this sense is not just that recent period, but their sporadic appearances beforehand as well. Don't get me wrong, I am glad for the recent revelations showing how Thor definitely does care and whatever little shaky coalition he's managed to pull together sorta-does as well, and the potential for others on their level to come on board with saving the world and stopping the Snarl.

The positive deific portrayals just seem to me to have been definitely in the minority over the life of OotS, the exceptions to the rule, by a substantial proportion relative to the callous and negative portrayals. I overreacted when I wrote "basically no exceptions", but so be it, I'm not going back and sweeping that under the carpet just to unclamp the wolf's jaws from my leg for what feels like the thousandth time.

You're making an excellent case for why the gods by and large aren't doing anything to help the Order currently, which would drastically change how the story would finish.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You're right, and I never denied that some believers have indeed been portrayed as good people -- O'Chul, Lien, Hinjo, Durkon and others. The difference is that the followers are not their gods, and their gods have, by and large, basically been characterized as uncaring to wantonly destructive with very few exceptions.

Sorry, but again, no. Many of their followers have been shown to be who they are because of the inspiration of those same gods. Durkon at the forefront of that list and, given he is a main character, completely defeats your thesis. One's idols don't have to be perfect to make a positive influence in one's life. Again, I refer back to your assertion that "a regular periodic screed of "gods and religion are bad and you are stupid if you cling to them"". Do you really intend to stand by your assertion that Rich is trying to convey that Durkon is "stupid" for "clinging" to Thor?

Because that is certainly not anywhere in the OotS I have read.

Sure, and then Thor went right back to getting drunk, pawing Sif, and not really caring if "the dwarf lives or dies" right afterwards, if I recall

You recall incorrectly. Again. He specifically asks his assistant to be told if Durkon makes it through. And yes, at the time we don't know why Thor didn't stay till the end, but soon enough we discover that he pissed off the Southern Gods with his intervention, and much later that such interventions are very dangerous for mortals themselves. Thor can only get away with it in very small doses, and thus it is not callous to cut his intervention as short as he can get away with.

Still callous behaviour, even if he did have some fun with a divinely empowered lightning strike and thunderclap in the moment.

Or maybe it is not callous, but acceptance that he can't be an eternal babysitter.

The gods certainly have only been a major part of the story since the last book, but what gives me this sense is not just that recent period, but their sporadic appearances beforehand as well.

Which we have already established that shows them in both good light and bad. A far cry from your "screed" accusation.

The positive deific portrayals just seem to me to have been definitely in the minority over the life of OotS, the exceptions to the rule, by a substantial proportion relative to the callous and negative portrayals.

And as we've seen, that is the result of broad cherry-picking on your part, and not something in the actual story.

I overreacted when I wrote "basically no exceptions", but so be it, I'm not going back and sweeping that under the carpet just to unclamp the wolf's jaws from my leg for what feels like the thousandth time.

So, your reaction to being shown to have utterly overreacted, misremembered and cherry-picked your way to a wrong conclusion is to stand by your incorrect statement?

That's a position, I'll grant you.

Grey Wolf

[TheNecrocomicon]

You're making an excellent case for why the gods by and large aren't doing anything to help the Order currently, which would drastically change how the story would finish.

Well ... what exactly are they doing? Thor's grand strategy seems to be "reveal stuff to Durkon so that the Order can get Redcloak to spend a top-level spell slot and hope for the best", which isn't really active help anymore. Unless there's some sort of offscreen diplomacy actually happening in the gods' domain(s) that we don't know about to bring more of them on-side with saving the world rather than casually unmaking it like the untold billions before to build another flawed prison and run the cycle anew.

Sorry, but again, no. Many of their followers have been shown to be who they are because of the inspiration of those same gods. Durkon at the forefront of that list and, given he is a main character, completely defeats your thesis. One's idols don't have to be perfect to make a positive influence in one's life. Again, I refer back to your assertion that "a regular periodic screed of "gods and religion are bad and you are stupid if you cling to them"". Do you really intend to stand by your assertion that Rich is trying to convey that Durkon is "stupid" for "clinging" to Thor?

Because that is certainly not anywhere in the OotS I have read.

You recall incorrectly. Again. He specifically asks his assistant to be told if Durkon makes it through. And yes, at the time we don't know why Thor didn't stay till the end, but soon enough we discover that he pissed off the Southern Gods with his intervention, and much later that such interventions are very dangerous for mortals themselves. Thor can only get away with it in very small doses, and thus it is not callous to cut his intervention as short as he can get away with.

Or maybe it is not callous, but acceptance that he can't be an eternal babysitter.

Which we have already established that shows them in both good light and bad. A far cry from your "screed" accusation.

And as we've seen, that is the result of broad cherry-picking on your part, and not something in the actual story.

So, your reaction to being shown to have utterly overreacted and cherry-picked your way to a wrong conclusion is to stand by your incorrect statement?

That's a position, I'll grant you.

Oh, you'll "grant me", will you? How wildly magnanimous of you. I do not need your approval to have an opinion.

Thor might have needed to keep his actual intervention as short as possible, but he couldn't even be bothered to stay and watch. That's literally the least he could have done afterwards, with no more material intrusion into another pantheon's domain, and he didn't care to do it. It said volumes about his attitude (at least then).

It's not just about him -- witness the farce poked at deism by Elan worshipping Banjo, or the casual and uncaring remarks of the gods voting on destroying the world, or Loki's incredibly blase and self-centered speech "in favour" of saving it, or the afterlives reducing souls to cookie-cutter "batteries" for deific sustenance, or a lifetime of exile on a whim, or the genocidal atrocities committed by the Sapphire Guard over decades while wielding power granted (and in most cases never taken away) by the Southern Gods, or casual bets damning large swaths of an entire race to a virtual eternity of torment for little reason at all other than the gods getting bored. I could go on, but I'm not inclined to scour 1195 strips and multiple side volumes I don't have at 1:50 AM just to argue pointlessly with someone who is already adamant that my viewpoint is allegedly utter trash.

In my estimation, the good that has been done by a handful of prominent mortal characters just hasn't come anywhere near outweighing all that yet. And the running implication coming out of that is that "someone is stupid for worshipping deities because they are callous and destructive", which has only recently and belatedly started to be undone thanks to Thor turning out much more conscientious than he seemed earlier on, once he and Durkon and Minrah finally came face-to-face.

[skim172]

Eh. A universe where the afterlife and the divine provably exist, are well and systematically defined and regulated, and daily personal interactions with deities are not unusual ... doesn't really correlate with theological or philosophical debates of the real world. When individuals in reality are blasting the evils of religion, they don't typically mean the literal evil acts done by the literal gods standing literally right there. The similarity is only superficial.

The interactions between mortals of the Stickverse and their gods are more analogous to the relationship between people and their leaders, the masses and the powerful, the subjects and the rulers. It's more anti-authority than it is anti-religion.

[CriticalFailure]

Hey, gods not caring about mortals makes some great comedy.

Anyways, the MiTD isn’t really working to become not evil; he ever was evil. He’s learning to think for himself. That’s a very different dynamic than Redcloak eventually being forced to confront all the bad choices he’s made in his last. The MiTD is heavily implied to be a child who is learning what he believes. Redcloak knows exactly what he’s done but he has never been capable of dealing with it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Eh. A universe where the afterlife and the divine provably exist, are well and systematically defined and regulated, and daily personal interactions with deities are not unusual ... doesn't really correlate with theological or philosophical debates of the real world. When individuals in reality are blasting the evils of religion, they don't typically mean the literal evil acts done by the literal gods standing literally right there. The similarity is only superficial.

The interactions between mortals of the Stickverse and their gods are more analogous to the relationship between people and their leaders, the masses and the powerful, the subjects and the rulers. It's more anti-authority than it is anti-religion.

You know, that's a fair assessment. In that same vein, someone like Girard Draketooth (when he appeared via illusion) struck me as an author avatar with that exact same message, even if he was towards the "nasty" end of the personality scale.

And yet, we've had good and wise authority figures like Lord Hinjo, or the current High Priestess of Thor, and whatnot, so it's not a blanket "authority is bad" message either.

[skim172]

You know, that's a fair assessment. In that same vein, someone like Girard Draketooth (when he appeared via illusion) struck me as an author avatar with that exact same message, even if he was towards the "nasty" end of the personality scale.

And yet, we've had good and wise authority figures like Lord Hinjo, or the current High Priestess of Thor, and whatnot, so it's not a blanket "authority is bad" message either.

True. Perhaps more correct to say OOTS displays a distrust of authority. The central conflicts of the story are almost always initiated by the abuse or mishandling or oversights of power and authority - be it the power of a god, magic power, political machination, military might, personal strength, or parental trust.

But we also see counterexamples of such power and authority wielded wisely and conscientiously. In fact, the Giant seems to make a point of ensuring such a paragon always exists as a point of contrast.

[factotum]

The translators wouldn't have had the authority to refuse or remove the ad; that was a deal that the publishers cooked up. So to speak. The same bizarre interludes were added to at least one of the German-translated Star Trek novels, John M. Ford's The Final Reflection.

It doesn't really matter whether it was the translators or the publishers who put it in, it still negatively impacts the quality of the translation, which is the point being made.

[danielxcutter]

Re: souls - I think it’s less about the individual souls themselves and more of a “circle of life” thing. If you think of the “souls being digested” thing as more of a “organic matter decomposing” thing, it makes better sense. It’s a bit scary yeah, and probably why more than a few mages have tried to become immortal in one way or another, but is it really that different from reincarnation? Sure it’s less of the soul itself and more of the soul energy being reused, but yeah, it’s not too horrifying for me.

[Lvl45DM!]

You're right, and I never denied that some believers have indeed been portrayed as good people -- O'Chul, Lien, Hinjo, Durkon and others. The difference is that the followers are not their gods, and their gods have, by and large, basically been characterized as uncaring to wantonly destructive with very few exceptions.



Sure, and then Thor went right back to getting drunk, pawing Sif, and not really caring if "the dwarf lives or dies" right afterwards, if I recall. Still callous behaviour, even if he did have some fun with a divinely empowered lightning strike and thunderclap in the moment.

The gods certainly have only been a major part of the story since the last book, but what gives me this sense is not just that recent period, but their sporadic appearances beforehand as well. Don't get me wrong, I am glad for the recent revelations showing how Thor definitely does care and whatever little shaky coalition he's managed to pull together sorta-does as well, and the potential for others on their level to come on board with saving the world and stopping the Snarl.

The positive deific portrayals just seem to me to have been definitely in the minority over the life of OotS, the exceptions to the rule, by a substantial proportion relative to the callous and negative portrayals. I overreacted when I wrote "basically no exceptions", but so be it, I'm not going back and sweeping that under the carpet just to unclamp the wolf's jaws from my leg for what feels like the thousandth time.

I'm gonna Summon Banana on the specific quote, but the gods were jackasses before they had plot relevance because its a comedy-drama, the same reason none of the Order's happy and healthy family members make an appearance. A kind, loving, actively involved god would solve the Order's problems which removes both comedy and drama. So you have a drunk moron Thor and a senile Odin. Same reason we have very little interaction with Elan's happy mother, who shows up for, i believe, two panels in the entire story. V's parents im sure are nice people and as long as V's spouse was happily married Inkyrius stayed offscreen as well.

Basically all the times that the gods aren't being jackasses we dont see it, cos its not good comedy or drama. When it is funny or dramatic the gods show. The 12 Gods certainly did something positive by smiting the blue outta Miko, and Thor tried to help Durkon in Azure City as well, but was stopped by Tiger who was defending his territory. Hells, Tiamat seems a nice enough god to her worshippers, givin out miracles without cleric levels and personally taking the IFCC to task.

Thats like saying the portrayal of Wizards in OotS has been largely negative. Vaarsuvius is a blowhard, arrogant, genocidal, cold, rude and emotionally and mentally damaged person, the Azure City wizard was a drunk, Pompey was a lech and a weakling, Zzdri is evil and boring, the two wizards who sold potions are morons who dont understand economics etc. etc.

Well ... what exactly are they doing? Thor's grand strategy seems to be "reveal stuff to Durkon so that the Order can get Redcloak to spend a top-level spell slot and hope for the best", which isn't really active help anymore. Unless there's some sort of offscreen diplomacy actually happening in the gods' domain(s) that we don't know about to bring more of them on-side with saving the world rather than casually unmaking it like the untold billions before to build another flawed prison and run the cycle anew.Thor might have needed to keep his actual intervention as short as possible, but he couldn't even be bothered to stay and watch. That's literally the least he could have done afterwards, with no more material intrusion into another pantheon's domain, and he didn't care to do it. It said volumes about his attitude (at least then).

He also gave Durkon access to a powerful set of magic items and he literally can't do more. What should he do? Lightning bolt Xykon? Liches are immune to electricity and even if he popped down and smote him then all the evil gods get to pop up and smite the Order. And then the gods fight and then theres another Snarl. As for watching, he has a literally millions of other worshippers.

It's not just about him -- witness the farce poked at deism by Elan worshipping Banjo, or the casual and uncaring remarks of the gods voting on destroying the world, or Loki's incredibly blase and self-centered speech "in favour" of saving it, or the afterlives reducing souls to cookie-cutter "batteries" for deific sustenance, or a lifetime of exile on a whim, or the genocidal atrocities committed by the Sapphire Guard over decades while wielding power granted (and in most cases never taken away) by the Southern Gods, or casual bets damning large swaths of an entire race to a virtual eternity of torment for little reason at all other than the gods getting bored. I could go on, but I'm not inclined to scour 1195 strips and multiple side volumes I don't have at 1:50 AM just to argue pointlessly with someone who is already adamant that my viewpoint is allegedly utter trash.

Oh a farce? In a comedy? Heavens no!
And Banjo? You mean the god that turned a group of violent savage orcs into peaceful pie-eaters with help of Giggles? Or is that anything thats not a 'real' god being worshipped that so offends you?
Loki? The god of lies? Being selfish?
The afterlife thing is a) taken from DnD proper and b) not really that bad if you think about it, in heaven you reach enlightenment at your own pace you arent forced into anything and c) doing a great job of making a world with a provable heaven still have stakes and meaning.
The exile was for the best as well.

In my estimation, the good that has been done by a handful of prominent mortal characters just hasn't come anywhere near outweighing all that yet. And the running implication coming out of that is that "someone is stupid for worshipping deities because they are callous and destructive", which has only recently and belatedly started to be undone thanks to Thor turning out much more conscientious than he seemed earlier on, once he and Durkon and Minrah finally came face-to-face.

I mean, to quote Thor, you could also take into account all the amazing magical powers the gods give their worshippers every day. Or does the ability to restore life not count somehow?

[Anarion]

I think this comic is a really good encapsulation of Roy's beliefs. It's a much more thoughtful explanation of his similar conversation with the Celestial where he just had said he didn't want to be anyone's errand boy. Here, he's more critically distancing himself from the gods based on his own experiences. I'd love to see him discuss his thoughts with Durkon at some point (though I think it's unlikely because it's not a great topic to set up a joke or advance the plot). It would be interesting to see Durkon react and explain how his faith in Thor causes him to view Roy's stance on the deities in the OOTS universe.

[Fyraltari]

The struggle to prevent the snarl unmaking everything is, in my personal opinion, entirely pointless so long as souls are not eternal.

This is such an odd mindset.

it's Rich Burlew's story to write as he pleases.

That I can agree with.

It seems like that positive angle has only been in there since late in the last book. Before that, the outlook was pretty much neutral to negative across the board, ranging from "gods are shortsighted blundering fools" to "gods are destructive jerkasses" with basically no exceptions.

That’s a necessity of having gods in your story without them being the main characters. If they weren’t unwilling or somehow unable to solve the heroes’ problems then there would be no story.

If anything can be said is the sheer amount of daddy issues in the main cast, something all too common in American media (to the point that I've seen commercials in other countries making fun of it),

I understand one single word of this but it still made me laugh because of how common that cliché is in American productions.

You're right, and I never denied that some believers have indeed been portrayed as good people -- O'Chul, Lien, Hinjo, Durkon and others. The difference is that the followers are not their gods, and their gods have, by and large, basically been characterized as uncaring to wantonly destructive with very few exceptions.

So you take offense to the fact that there are more non-good gods than good ones? Then your beef is with Wizard of the Coast, not The Giant.

What Roy and Julia's dad taught them is a load of minotaur.

It's a common misconception among wizards when thinking about the divine, they really can't comprehend the gods are NOT just "super duper powerful wizards" but are actually fundamental pillars of creation who deserve respect for THAT burden they bear. (Yes, even Hel and Loki.)

Are they though? As far as I can tell if both the gods and the Snarl were to croak at the end of the comic the only one who would have to change their daily routines are the theistic clerics. And only for so long that new gods for them to worship don’t arise.

And Roy REALLY missed the point if he thinks it was "throw us under the bus" it was more like "GET THE KIDS OUT THE POOL BECAUSE THE SHARK BREAKS OUT OF ITS CAGE AGAIN!"

Quoth probably-Tyr ‘I’d rather continue this cycle for eternity rather than give an inch to that damn goblin.’ Quoth Njord ‘I was getting bored with that world anyway’. Quoth Thrym (probably) ‘Can I be your consort if I help you destroy this world?’ Quoth Fenrir ‘Burn the world! Kill everyone! Piss on their graves!’

Well ... what exactly are they doing? Thor's grand strategy seems to be "reveal stuff to Durkon so that the Order can get Redcloak to spend a top-level spell slot and hope for the best", which isn't really active help anymore.

Maybe he could grant Durkon and Minrah awesome supernatural powers every morning. Or give Durkon a fancy replacement hammer with lightning powers. Or stop Hel from giving him a heart attack. Do you think that would help?

Thor might have needed to keep his actual intervention as short as possible, but he couldn't even be bothered to stay and watch. That's literally the least he could have done afterwards, with no more material intrusion into another pantheon's domain, and he didn't care to do it. It said volumes about his attitude (at least then).

Thor has thousands of followers to protect, a senile father to care for, Loki and Surtur (and probably some others) to occasionally smite, hundreds of dead dwarves to argue for a day and only 24 hours each day to do so. He doesn’t have much time for himself so he doesn’t waste what little he has by worrying about things he can’t affect anymore.
Do you know any doctor? Because I assure you they don’t spend time worrying about their patients when they’ve done all they can. That way lies madness. In fact knowing when to stop caring is the most important and most difficult lesson that anyone working to save lives has to learn.

It's not just about him -- witness the farce poked at deism by Elan worshipping Banjo[/quote]
Do you mean animism?

You know, that's a fair assessment. In that same vein, someone like Girard Draketooth (when he appeared via illusion) struck me as an author avatar with that exact same message, even if he was towards the "nasty" end of the personality scale.

The guy who founded a children-kidnpping borderline cult struck you as Ann author avatar as he delivered a speech proving he was completely unable of understanding the mindset of the person he aimed it at? Why?

EDIT:

That’s like saying the portrayal of Wizards in OotS has been largely negative. Vaarsuvius is a blowhard, arrogant, genocidal, cold, rude and emotionally and mentally damaged person, the Azure City wizard was a drunk, Pompey was a lech and a weakling, Zzdri is evil and boring, the two wizards who sold potions are morons who dont understand economics etc. etc.

... Eugene being Eugene, the Iron Wizard contestant not realizing what casting a fire spell with a larger area of effect than range would do, Fyron, Xavion and Dorukan looking down on sorcerers, Grubwigler being back-alley pseudo-necromancer, the headmaster not caring that one his pupil got murdered...
[sarcasm]Wow, this comic really goes out of its way to ridicule and insult wizards. It’s preaching anti-intellectualism and that is making me uncomfortable.[/sarcasm]

It would be interesting to see Durkon react and explain how his faith in Thor causes him to view Roy's stance on the deities in the OOTS universe.

It would be a great character scene, I think. And I really want to see Durkon, Roy and Redcloak have a talk about this. It could also advance the plot somehow. Malack and Durkon’s discussion on theology introduced us to Hel and set up the bloodwart gag.

[b_jonas]

Uh citation on a nonmagical crown taking up a magic item slot?

Xykon isn't wearing the badass crown in #484. This is after the battle when he has had time to reequip it, and he was wearing it in #473. He took it off because it takes up the same slot as Dorukan's headband, and he needs the headband to cast the Cloister spell. He takes off the headband by his next appearance in #541.

Also what book/strip does Eugene guess it being magical?

Start of Darkness page 26 eleventh panel. Again, he doesn't know that it's the crown.

[Worldsong]

On the topic of the comic being anti-theistic...

For most of the comic the gods have only really shown up for gags, which means they're almost inevitably going to be portrayed as kind of silly in one form or another. I think the very first time we do see the gods in a scenario where they aren't part of a gag is when the Twelve Gods take away Miko's powers for going a bit too far with her self-perceived sense of justice. So the first time the gods aren't just there for the sake of a joke they show that they have limits to what behaviour they tolerate in their followers (even if I imagine many people would argue that they are still too tolerant).

Thor helps Durkon in a manner which is technically breaking the rules of both the world and the gods specifically and then gets the hell outta dodge because he's also got other business to attend to and because he wants to avoid a conflict with the Southern gods. if he'd stuck around to watch Durkon's fight resolve itself the Southern gods might have showed up and chewed him out for breaking the rules and then having the gall to stick around. In the current scenario the highest priority of all the gods is minimizing the chances of the Snarl breaking free or another Snarl forming. Which may sound callous until you remember that if there's a Snarl on the loose then everyone loses, gods and mortals alike.

And yes the gods sound rather uncaring during the Godsmoot, but I believe Rich explained somewhere that the intended message is that the gods have spent so long watching all their creations get torn apart by the Snarl that they're mentally exhausted. They're not going to give up any time soon but they can't muster up much enthusiasm for saving the world because it's probably just going to be another one destroyed by the Snarl. And I'd vehemently argue against any suggestion that the fact that they can grow weary after eons of the Snarl destroying all their creations means they don't really care.

Arguably if the OotS succeeds and the gods get their hands on a more permanent solution for the Snarl they might actually regain some of their vitality and enthusiasm, as they no longer have to constantly fear for their own safety or look at the world and wonder when the Snarl is going to break out and devour everything.

The comic, by and large, mocks everything. It's part of the sense of humour it's built on. I did not get the impression that the comic was meant to convey any message of 'the gods are bad and you should feel bad for following them.' My personal interpretation was more along the lines of 'the gods are not infallible and have their own problems.' So as someone else has already said, it's more anti-authoritarian than anti-theistic.

[RatElemental]

What Roy and Julia's dad taught them is a load of minotaur.

It's a common misconception among wizards when thinking about the divine, they really can't comprehend the gods are NOT just "super duper powerful wizards" but are actually fundamental pillars of creation who deserve respect for THAT burden they bear. (Yes, even Hel and Loki.)

In settings like the Forgotten Realms, yes. In this one the gods make the world, the world shapes them a little, then they unmake it (or it gets unmade for them) and they have to make a new one.

In FR if you kill Mystra, magic stops working right. In OotS, if you kill Odin, Odin stops contributing his ideas to future worlds.