OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Tbh, I interpreted it as "it's the same power level as a ninth-level spell", but that it would still have to be a specific action.

Meta-wise, I feel like being able to just hijack a cast spell against his will would be too easy.

You interpret correctly:

No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

[Doctor West]

*de-lurks*
I suspect the meta reason Thor specified it had to be a ninth-level spell slot is to give us a readily apparent reason why it has to be Redcloak, and not just any cleric of the Dark One.
*re-lurks*

[danielxcutter]

It sounds like the ritual options for epic spells, where casters contribute spell slots to lower the Spellcraft DC.

[factotum]

You interpret correctly:

You know, I'm sure someone has quoted that at me before, but apparently my memory isn't what it used to be and I'd forgotten all about it. I'll try and remember the next time it comes up.

[Schroeswald]

You know, I'm sure someone has quoted that at me before, but apparently my memory isn't what it used to be and I'd forgotten all about it. I'll try and remember the next time it comes up.

I don't think anyone's quoted that at you before, I don't think this one has been used yet cause I was around when he made that post, but um, the Giant specifically quoted you when he said it.

[Worldsong]

Something like a quantum cat or Schroedinger's string ...

As to the differences between mortals and gods in OoTS verse: If we go back to Shojo's crayon montage on creation of the world, etc, and then Thor's follow up on that, the deities of OoTS verse came first and the general case is that the deities created all else. And they seem to have created a bit of a self licking ice cream cone in the process, with their followers feeding them various nutrients. (I am tempted to use analogy of a given farmer taking an unimproved plot of land and eventually putting enough effort into that plot to grow the crops that then sustain the farmer - parallel to deities create worlds/humanoids who then provide nutrients to deities). With this basic model in mind, we discover that, as far as confirmed deities go (not demigods), TDO is a novel exception to that rule of origin.
The ascension seems to be quite rare, and perhaps is a singularity.
(The dwarf example is in the demigod box).

I find the analogy Grey Wolf makes vis a vis the architect and the tenant to be a pretty good one insofar as weight of influence. That, and the ideas/thoughts being placed in the Astral plane - as depicted in comic - support that side of the discussion as well.
+1 for Wolf.
(While I like the nod to Plato and his cave, and the various shadows, I think that's best left for elsewhere)

If I understood the situation correctly ascension in itself is rare but not unheard of: what makes the Dark One unique is that he ascended to a quiddity which nobody even knew existed, with no connection to any of the other gods.

That is a nicely coherent theory, I love it!

Thanks.

[danielxcutter]

If I understood the situation correctly ascension in itself is rare but not unheard of: what makes the Dark One unique is that he ascended to a quiddity which nobody even knew existed, with no connection to any of the other gods.

I'm not sure if any other mortal has ascended to full-blown godhood yet (either in this world or any of the previous ones), though we do know of at least Dvalin if we include demigods. But ascension itself is not unheard of, yes.

[bunsen_h]

If I understood the situation correctly ascension in itself is rare but not unheard of: what makes the Dark One unique is that he ascended to a quiddity which nobody even knew existed, with no connection to any of the other gods.

My wild-ass guess is that it would involve the ascension of someone who truly hates all of the existing gods and their pantheons.

EDIT: What exactly is a demigod in this context? A mortal who either has ascended, or is the offspring of a mortal and a god?

[Fyraltari]

My wild-ass guess is that it would involve the ascension of someone who truly hates all of the existing gods and their pantheons.

EDIT: What exactly is a demigod in this context? A mortal who either has ascended, or is the offspring of a mortal and a god?

It’s unclear. D&D defines it as lesser god but despite her lack of power Hel isn’t one. Dvalin is a demigod and we know he ascended so maybe demigod means ascended mortal but The Dark One also ascended and nobody called him a demigod so perhaps not.

[Kantaki]

It’s unclear. D&D defines it as lesser god but despite her lack of power Hel isn’t one. Dvalin is a demigod and we know he ascended so maybe demigod means ascended mortal but The Dark One also ascended and nobody called him a demigod so perhaps not.

My guess would be deities with "lesser" domains and (some) ascended ones.
Hel is still a full goddess because her domain is Death, lack of worship or not, that's still a pretty essential part of creation.
The demigods on the other hand get what?
Beauty, messengers, stuff like that. important, sure, but not nearly as central as stuff like storms, fire or the sun.

The Dark One might be an exemption because the various goblinoids worship only him.
Sure, Dwalin gets some worship from the dwarves, but he's secondary at best.
The elven gods might be the primary focus of elvish worship, but they have to share, both with each other and probably some Western Gods.

And the DO has sheer numbers going for him. Goblins are basically everywhere and there's many of them.
And he gets them all, no matter which part of the world they live in.

[a_flemish_guy]

you know, I'm beginning to think that julia was needlesly dismissive of her spell back in 1192
I don't know how rare blood oaths are but she essentially made a way for them to have unlimited and instant communication over unlimited distance
put that in a scroll or other magic item and you've essentially made walkie-talkies, except better

[Kantaki]

you know, I'm beginning to think that julia was needlesly dismissive of her spell back in 1192
I don't know how rare blood oaths are but she essentially made a way for them to have unlimited and instant communication over unlimited distance
put that in a scroll or other magic item and you've essentially made walkie-talkies, except better

The issue with the spell using the blood oath to connect isn't really how rare those are.
The first problem is that right now it only works with one specific blood oath, which makes it relatively useless outside of annoying her big brother.
And even if she manages to expand it to anyone who has sworn a blood oath of vengeance, well it still requires everyone you might want to call- and you too, so they can call back -to undergo a magic ritual that's A) friggin painful and B) endangers your place in the afterlife.

I mean, I'm sure there might be worse phone set ups, but I can't think of any.

So yeah, I can see why Julia might think her spell needs work.

[a_flemish_guy]

The issue with the spell using the blood oath to connect isn't really how rare those are.
The first problem is that right now it only works with one specific blood oath, which makes it relatively useless outside of annoying her big brother.
And even if she manages to expand it to anyone who has sworn a blood oath of vengeance, well it still requires everyone you might want to call- and you too, so they can call back -to undergo a magic ritual that's A) friggin painful and B) endangers your place in the afterlife.

I mean, I'm sure there might be worse phone set ups, but I can't think of any.

So yeah, I can see why Julia might think her spell needs work.

sure, it could be improved, didn't say that it was perfect but I don't see it as some huge flaw that needs to be hidden from her tutors
my thoughts were more about what if you had a family of 5 siblings all under the same blood oath, they could effectively have multiple adventuring parties keeping each other updated in real time while being on the other side of the world (for example if you had to search multiple locations where something/someone could potentially be)

the thing is that she can keep trying to improve sending but the spell as it is is already perfectly useable if you're a person who it can be used by

[Kantaki]

sure, it could be improved, didn't say that it was perfect but I don't see it as some huge flaw that needs to be hidden from her tutors
my thoughts were more about what if you had a family of 5 siblings all under the same blood oath, they could effectively have multiple adventuring parties keeping each other updated in real time while being on the other side of the world (for example if you had to search multiple locations where something/someone could potentially be)

the thing is that she can keep trying to improve sending but the spell as it is is already perfectly useable if you're a person who it can be used by

Which right now are Julia and Roy.
Maybe it would be possible to piggyback off other families' blood oaths, but even then the bllod oath part is a massive drawback.
Even ignoring the consequences, what do you think her teachers are gonna say if Julia presents the spell as is?
Because if the goal is to improve the Sending spell the current product fails epically.

Mind you, it is a good start*, but with the current limitations sending is the better spell for most mages.

*For families in similar situations to the Greenhilt it might even be useful.
But for everyone else? Not so much.

[factotum]

I'm not sure if any other mortal has ascended to full-blown godhood yet (either in this world or any of the previous ones), though we do know of at least Dvalin if we include demigods. But ascension itself is not unheard of, yes.

The Elven gods are supposedly ascended mortals, but in their case they were sponsored by an existing pantheon (the Western one) and so joined them on their ascension.

[a_flemish_guy]

Which right now are Julia and Roy.
Maybe it would be possible to piggyback off other families' blood oaths, but even then the bllod oath part is a massive drawback.
Even ignoring the consequences, what do you think her teachers are gonna say if Julia presents the spell as is?
Because if the goal is to improve the Sending spell the current product fails epically.

Mind you, it is a good start*, but with the current limitations sending is the better spell for most mages.

*For families in similar situations to the Greenhilt it might even be useful.
But for everyone else? Not so much.

I don't think her teachers expect everyone to be the next bigby or mordenkain
even if she never manages to improve sending she has effectively created a much better version of it for a limited target demographic
don't see the current version as a failed improvement of sending but as "greenhilt's blood-oath coordinator", something needn't be exactly the thing you're looking for or even work for everyone for it to be considered a succes
and yes, if she manages to get rid of the limitation then that would be a huge succes and make the current version obsolete but that's not a certain thing

[Kantaki]

I don't think her teachers expect everyone to be the next bigby or mordenkain
even if she never manages to improve sending she has effectively created a much better version of it for a limited target demographic
don't see the current version as a failed improvement of sending but as "greenhilt's blood-oath coordinator", something needn't be exactly the thing you're looking for or even work for everyone for it to be considered a succes
and yes, if she manages to get rid of the limitation then that would be a huge succes and make the current version obsolete but that's not a certain thing

But improving Sending is the whole point of the project.
And considering both Roy and Julia think the current state wouldn't be good enough I'M going to assume a "blood oath only" variant isn't good enough either- or at least not enough for a good grade.
Plus, if you get a spell named after you it should be one that's actually impressive.
Which this one isn't right now.

Basically, it would be a interesting spell, if of limited usefulness, but it would fall short of Julia's goal as well as her and(probably) her teachers' expectations.

Edit: Also, isn't Bigby the one with the hand-fetish?
I mean seriously, why do you need so many highly situational variants of the same spell?
Huh. I guess if Julia doesn't get rid of the blood oath limitation she would be roughly on that level.
Might be the bare minimum to pass though...

[Fyraltari]

The Elven gods are supposedly ascended mortals, but in their case they were sponsored by an existing pantheon (the Western one) and so joined them on their ascension.

We don’t know if any of them made it past demigodhood, though.

[danielxcutter]

Mechanics-wise, demigods have less Divine Ranks than full-blown gods but have more than zero, I think.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We know from Eugene's complaining that all other outstanding Blood Oaths have been resolved and the Oathspirits processed into Celestia. Roy is the only person Julia can talk to with this spell as it currently stands.

[Peelee]

We know from Eugene's complaining that all other outstanding Blood Oaths have been resolved and the Oathspirits processed into Celestia. Roy is the only person Julia can talk to with this spell as it currently stands.

We know of one other Blood Oath that was resolved, IIRC. Eugene may not wish to associate with any others that may be up there (or vice versa), and even then, the outside of Celestia looks mighty different than the outside of Valhalla or the outside of the Nine Hells, both of which we've seen. There could be oathspirits waiting out any number of them. Heck, even for Celestia alone, we know Southerners go to another side of the mountain. It's a very big cloud.

ETA: Roy is still the only person Julia could talk to regardless, because it's using the same connection forged by the Blood Oath, so even if there were thousands of oathspirits with living progeny, it'd be useless to Julia.

[Grey Watcher]

We know of one other Blood Oath that was resolved, IIRC. Eugene may not wish to associate with any others that may be up there (or vice versa), and even then, the outside of Celestia looks mighty different than the outside of Valhalla or the outside of the Nine Hells, both of which we've seen. There could be oathspirits waiting out any number of them. Heck, even for Celestia alone, we know Southerners go to another side of the mountain. It's a very big cloud.

ETA: Roy is still the only person Julia could talk to regardless, because it's using the same connection forged by the Blood Oath, so even if there were thousands of oathspirits with living progeny, it'd be useless to Julia.

Well, Eugene does claim to be "the last oathspirit up there now". Just what "up there" refers to might be open for interpretation: Celestia? Northern Celestia? It's certainly plausible that there are other oathspirits hanging around the front doors of other afterlives (Eugene probably wouldn't be able to talk to them either. Something tells me he's not allowed to leave, except to haunt his living descendants.) But, within whatever area he considers accessible, it's not a question of "no oathspirit willing to talk to him," but of "no oathspirits, period."

[Peelee]

Well, Eugene does claim to be "the last oathspirit up there now". Just what "up there" refers to might be open for interpretation: Celestia? Northern Celestia? It's certainly plausible that there are other oathspirits hanging around the front doors of other afterlives (Eugene probably wouldn't be able to talk to them either. Something tells me he's not allowed to leave, except to haunt his living descendants.) But, within whatever area he considers accessible, it's not a question of "no oathspirit willing to talk to him," but of "no oathspirits, period."

Forgot about that part, yeah.

[GrayGriffin]

But improving Sending is the whole point of the project.
And considering both Roy and Julia think the current state wouldn't be good enough I'M going to assume a "blood oath only" variant isn't good enough either- or at least not enough for a good grade.
Plus, if you get a spell named after you it should be one that's actually impressive.
Which this one isn't right now.

Basically, it would be a interesting spell, if of limited usefulness, but it would fall short of Julia's goal as well as her and(probably) her teachers' expectations.

Edit: Also, isn't Bigby the one with the hand-fetish?
I mean seriously, why do you need so many highly situational variants of the same spell?
Huh. I guess if Julia doesn't get rid of the blood oath limitation she would be roughly on that level.
Might be the bare minimum to pass though...

She's both lowered the level and increased the ability to properly communicate, though. It's possible someone else could build on her work to find another specific but more accessible limitation to make it more usable.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Traditionally, that's either upping the casting time (already ridiculously long with Sending) or adding a pricey material component (which is starting to move into using a crystal ball territory).

[bunsen_h]

Which right now are Julia and Roy.
Maybe it would be possible to piggyback off other families' blood oaths, but even then the bllod oath part is a massive drawback.
Even ignoring the consequences, what do you think her teachers are gonna say if Julia presents the spell as is?
Because if the goal is to improve the Sending spell the current product fails epically.

It's still an impressive bit of research. The point is to demonstrate one's skill, that one has achieved mastery of the craft, not necessarily to create a result with a great deal of applicability. It's nice if the student comes up with something that lots of people can use, but that's just a bonus.

Two days before my master's thesis defense, I did my usual weekly perusal of the journals that had come into the departmental library, and found a paper that pretty much obsoleted my work. (A group had come up with an algebraic solution for a problem that had previously been dealt with by successive approximations.) But it didn't invalidate what I'd done. I didn't hesitate to present it to the committee, though that paper did give my self-confidence a hearty thwack.

[Peelee]

Two days before my master's thesis defense, I did my usual weekly perusal of the journals that had come into the departmental library, and found a paper that pretty much obsoleted my work. (A group had come up with an algebraic solution for a problem that had previously been dealt with by successive approximations.) But it didn't invalidate what I'd done. I didn't hesitate to present it to the committee, though that paper did give my self-confidence a hearty thwack.

One of the many bones I have to pick with academia is that upon completion of a higher-level dissertation, you would be awarded with the title of Doctor bunsen_h, but upon completion of your stated dissertation, you were not awarded with the title of Master bunsen_h.

And, for the record, I think you should buck that trend, and absolutely introduce yourself in the future as "bunsen_h, Master of Mathematics" of whatever field you did get your MS in.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Even ignoring the consequences, what do you think her teachers are gonna say if Julia presents the spell as is?

She's a high-schooler.

Creating a new spell that anyone would bother to learn is pretty much equivalent of a Ph.D. thesis. Just being a first level wizard at her age puts her in the top 3%

But improving Sending is the whole point of the project.

Look at it like this, suppose in high school you write a paper on solutions to <major political conflict>. What would the teacher expect of you?

Well, in my schools you would be expected to:
Find, read, and understand appropriate sources, then cite them according to some very specific format.
Organize on the problem and present it in a clear manner.
Bonus points for actually having independent critical thought on the subject.

I would not be expected to author the strategy the UN uses to resolve the issue, because that's way beyond the scope of a high-schooler; just the basic understanding on how these problems our solved is plenty.

One of the many bones I have to pick with academia is that upon completion of a higher-level dissertation, you would be awarded with the title of Doctor bunsen_h, but upon completion of your stated dissertation, you were not awarded with the title of Master bunsen_h.

That's because free adult in the anglosphere is already granted that title. It's just that it's spelt with an 'i'.

[Peelee]

That's because free adult in the anglosphere is already granted that title. It's just that it's spelt with an 'i'.

Well, if we're talking etymologically, then every teacher in the anglosphere is already granted the title of "doctor," it's just spelled with a "t" instead of a "d," "ea" instead of the first "o", "h" instead of "t", and "e" instead of the second "o".

So let's not talk etymologically, then.

[KorvinStarmast]

Plus, if you get a spell named after you it should be one that's actually impressive.

two suggestions...

Julia's Jabberwalkietalkie

jPhone