Terrible episodes of great shows.

[Rodin]

There's a good guide to TNG here. I skipped season 1 on general principles and started watching through everything with a 3 or above. While I didn't always agree with the rating it's a pretty good list for screening out the crap.

[tomandtish]

"Threshold" for Voyager... Or all of Star Trek in general, really.

While Voyager is not nearly as good as TNG and DS9, I actually enjoy it and never got the hate and hyperbolic criticism it gets... But by all gods, is "Threshold" bad! I don't think I've ever watched a worse ST episode (maybe there's one hiding in Enterprise, since I only watched 2~3 episodes of that show).

Voyager suffered the curse of extremely inconsistent writing. When it was good, it was really good (several Voyager episodes on my top 10 favorite Trek episodes in general). And when it was bad it was really bad.

I'd actually like to suggest something harder. Are there any great episodes of shows you don't like? In that vein:

Definitely harder. After all, I generally give a show 5 episodes, and if I don't like it by then I stop watching. So for me to be able to answer this, I'd have to have a show where one episode was "great" but the others were bad enough that I still stopped watching. That's a tricky balance, and I don't think it's ever happened to me.

[Peelee]

Voyager suffered the curse of extremely inconsistent writing. When it was good, it was really good (several Voyager episodes on my top 10 favorite Trek episodes in general). And when it was bad it was really bad.

My recollection is that the EMH was the only good thing about that show, and the writers realized this more and more as the series went on and started giving Robert Picardo more time as each season progressed.

[tomandtish]

My recollection is that the EMH was the only good thing about that show, and the writers realized this more and more as the series went on and started giving Robert Picardo more time as each season progressed.

Jeru Ryan was also excellent. I had my doubts when they first brought her on (especially given how they advertised her), but she was one of the 2 best things about the show.

[Peelee]

Jeru Ryan was also excellent. I had my doubts when they first brought her on (especially given how they advertised her), but she was one of the 2 best things about the show.

I'm terrible with names (If she was named Jeru Kirko I'd remember her name just as well as Picardo's), but I'm like 95% sure that's Seven of Nine. Because now that you remind me, yeah, she was awesome.

[Olinser]

"Threshold" for Voyager... Or all of Star Trek in general, really.

While Voyager is not nearly as good as TNG and DS9, I actually enjoy it and never got the hate and hyperbolic criticism it gets... But by all gods, is "Threshold" bad! I don't think I've ever watched a worse ST episode (maybe there's one hiding in Enterprise, since I only watched 2~3 episodes of that show).

To be included on this list would require Voyager to be a great show

But I agree that is a TERRIBLE episode. Not just from the idiocy that traveling faster than warp somehow 'evolves' humans into lizards. Or the fact that he steals a ship that can now go literally anywhere in the galaxy.... and goes to a planet normal warp distance away. The functional equivalent of somebody jumping in a getaway car and driving down the street. But no, the worst part is that it SHOULD HAVE ENDED THE SHOW.

They had a method for instantaneously returning to Earth, AND a cure for the side effects. "OK boys, hit the warp for earth, pick up your lizard 'evolution' cure and hit the bars by 5."

Nope. They just discard it and never mention it again. Despite the fact that they explicitly claim it is 'transwarp', and that multiple times later in the show they talk about the Borg transwarp gateways, so CLEARLY its just a matter of proper stabilization to do it. Nope. Discard, never speak of it again.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Let's break the Star Trek discussion up a bit.

Leverage: The White Rabbit Job. Final season, ramping up to the finale, and then we have this one. The show has a very specific formula they use that relies on a hateable villain. You can mess with that, sure(the rehab episode in S1, the carnival in S4), but both of those bring in alternate villains to focus on. This one, there's no villain, the moral justification for the team being involved is extremely thin, and that's supposed to justify their incredibly risky con? No. There were other episodes I dislike and skip on rewatches for one reason or another, this is the only one where I actually think the series would be better without it.

[Peelee]

Let's break the Star Trek discussion up a bit.

Blasphemy!

Especially when you say that before I have a chance to play out my "any Voyager episode with a photon torpedo" card.

[Dire_Flumph]

Blasphemy!

Especially when you say that before I have a chance to play out my "any Voyager episode with a photon torpedo" card.

Pffft. They were obviously converting shuttles into torpedoes. Geez.

[Lemmy]

Pffft. They were obviously converting shuttles into torpedoes. Geez.

I do vaguely remember mentions of a "torpedo manufacturing team" at some point.

I mean... They are literally able to make matter out of energy.

[Peelee]

Pffft. They were obviously converting shuttles into torpedoes. Geez.

I love this theory.

I do vaguely remember mentions of a "torpedo manufacturing team" at some point.

I mean... They are literally able to make matter out of energy.

But they were rationing energy so hard they had Neelix be a chef so they wouldn't have to replicate food. Incredibly energy-rich photon torpedoes would be, in theory, astronomically more resource-intensive to replicate.

As for the torpedo manufacturing team, I also vaguely remember that, but never really in any capacity other than off-handed mention. And if photon torpedoes are actually easy to manufacture, why make such a big deal about their scarcity early on?

[Lemmy]

I love this theory.

But they were rationing energy so hard they had Neelix be a chef so they wouldn't have to replicate food. Incredibly energy-rich photon torpedoes would be, in theory, astronomically more resource-intensive to replicate.

As for the torpedo manufacturing team, I also vaguely remember that, but never really in any capacity other than off-handed mention. And if photon torpedoes are actually easy to manufacture, why make such a big deal about their scarcity early on?

Obviously, Neelix's meals have as many calories as a photon torpedo.

Seriously, though... I always figured that between scavenging and trade, they figured out a way to produce at least a few photon torpedoes. Probably not as many as the montage shows, but still more than just what they had in the early episodes.

[DeadMech]

I love this theory.

But they were rationing energy so hard they had Neelix be a chef so they wouldn't have to replicate food. Incredibly energy-rich photon torpedoes would be, in theory, astronomically more resource-intensive to replicate.

As for the torpedo manufacturing team, I also vaguely remember that, but never really in any capacity other than off-handed mention. And if photon torpedoes are actually easy to manufacture, why make such a big deal about their scarcity early on?

Presumably early on Voyager and it's crew didn't know where to locate harvest-able resources to power their replicators since they didn't know the lay of the land. They were probably scavenging whatever bits and pieces they came across on their travels, dedicating the lion share of what they could find towards maintaining the ship and cutting corners as often everywhere else (food, holodecks, ect)

Also they were trading with the species they encountered at pretty much every opportunity.

[Peelee]

Obviously, Neelix's meals have as many calories as a photon torpedo.

Seriously, though... I always figured that between scavenging and trade, they figured out a way to produce at least a few photon torpedoes. Probably not as many as the montage shows, but still more than just what they had in the early episodes.

Yeah, I have no problem with them being able to build a few extra torpedoes, scrounge together parts to make another shuttle, maaaaaaaybe the Delta Flyer if I'm feeling generous. But like, the entire thematic point of them being out in the Delta Quadrant is to have them be cut off from the Federation, so no carefree luxuries like ice cream whenever you feel like or impromptu concerts whenever you feel like replicating up a cello or goofing off in a holodeckohwait.

Also, I wanted to share this:

• You've been on this tiny ship in the Delta Quadrant beyond any hope of recrew or resupply for over a year, but you keep seeing ensigns you don't recognise. Everyone tells you that they've always been here.
• You go down to Engineering looking for Lt. Carey. B'Elanna tells you that he's just stepped out. He's been "just stepped out" for days.
• A shuttle crashes on a desert planet. You speak with Chakotay about the possibility of trading for some new shuttles, but he looks at you funny and says "but we already have a full complement of shuttles".
• You run to the shuttlebay and inspect them personally. There is a full complement of shuttles. And none of them even have a scratch.
• The next week, a shuttle is torn to pieces in a plasma storm. You're not even surprised when you find it intact in the shuttlebay an hour later.
• You stop mentioning shuttles.
• The ship has an encounter with some Kazon, but manages to get away. Their ships are primitive and slow and you shouldn't run into them again.
• Two weeks later, you meet the same Kazon, now somehow in front of you. You begin to suspect that you're driving in circles.
• You go to Engineering looking for Lt. Carey. You haven't seen him in two years. He's "not there right now, but should be back in a minute".
• Janeway and Paris travel at Warp 10 and turn into salamanders. You're sure that it happened. You remember it happening! But no one brings it up. When you ask Tom about it, he doesn't even register the question.
• You scream "BUT YOU WERE A SALAMANDER!" into his ear. He doesn't even hear you.
• You see another Ensign you don't recognise. You finally just ask the computer for the crew complement of Voyager. You are told that the answer is: 121.
• A month later, the Hirogen conquer the ship, spend weeks brainwashing and surgically altering the crew into believing that they are actually characters in holographic simulations, and then hunt them for sport. This culminates in a pitched battle between the crew and the Hirogen in which the ship is utterly wrecked and dozens of people are killed.
• Afterwards, you ask the computer for the ship's crew complement. You are told that the answer is: 147.
• The next day, you wake up and find Voyager restored to its original state.
• You make a discreet inquiry about Lt. Carey. Now everyone acts like he's dead but can't tell you precisely when or how.
• The Captain takes you aside one day and specifically instructs you not to mention Ensign Jetal to the Doctor. She says that she knows that this will be difficult, given how close we all were to her (and you in particular), but that for the greater good of the crew, you need to act like Ensign Jetal never existed. You solemnly nod your head and consent, and she gives you a comradely pat on the shoulder and leaves the room.
• You have absolutely no idea who Ensign Jetal is.
• Voyager absorbs the remaining crew of the USS Equinox. Well at least you'll finally have an explanation for the new crew you see around the ship! You never see any of them ever again.
• You've now travelled almost 40,000 light years towards home. You check the star charts; somehow, you're still in the Delta Quadrant. You begin to wonder if the Beta Quadrant even exists.
• The Delta Flyer is destroyed by Borg torpedoes. You don't even bother to check the shuttlebay for it, you just instinctively know that it will be back.
• A few months later, the Captain gives you the sad news: Lt. Carey is dead.
• You finally make it back to the Alpha Quadrant, say your tearful farewells, and receive a handshake and a promotion from Admiral Paris. As one last thought before leaving Voyager forever, you pay a visit to the shuttlebay. You find it utterly empty, except for one lowly crewman with a mop and pail, swabbing the deck. "I...guess that Starfleet must have already cleared out the remaining shuttles?" You say uncertainly, your voice echoing in the cavernous, empty room. The crewman breaks off his mopping and looks at you like you've lost your mind and says: "Voyager never had any shuttles."

[Dargaron]

I'd add Eureka's season 3 Here Comes the Suns to the list. Now, Your Millage May Vary when it comes to Eureka, but I appreciated the Syfy trinity of Sanctuary, Warehouse 13 and Eureka, because they formed a very interesting "TV Universe." The series conceits were related enough that you could have characters travel between shows for cameos, but different enough that they don't step on each others' toes: Sanctuary does cryptids, Warehouse 13 does old, magic junk, and Eureka handles the superscience (And is also more geographically contained).

In particular, the episode formula of "present a bunch of goings-on, reveal the Problem of the Episode, weed out the Red Herrings, solve the POTE" encouraged the audience to pay attention and try to figure out which seemingly-innocuous goings-on would be responsible.

The Syfy trinity even had a recurring cross-show romance/fling, which is something I don't think I've seen since (although I don't watch much TV, so Marvel/DC have probably already done it ten times).

However, Here Comes the Suns manages to be uniquely bad, because the episode is resolved by the most blatant product placement I've ever seen. In order to survive the effects of a second (artificial) sun, the protagonist must don specially-made superscience Gillette-brand deodorant . This basically comes out of nowhere, and is probably the most ham-fisted product-placement I've ever seen, beyond even some legitimate paid-for advertisements!

[Aedilred]

The Simpsons has had its fair share of bad episodes but two stand out for me. 1. Sideshow Bob's Last Gleaming was probably the first outright bad episode since Season 1, ending possibly the longest sustained run of quality episodes from a single show in TV history. Especially given how good previous Sideshow Bob episodes had been, it's a bummer, and the "clunk" on arrival is obvious when you watch all the episodes sequentially (as I, uh, have, at least until...)

2. Bart to the Future, which is not only possibly the worst Simpsons episode ever in its own right, but came early enough in the show's history that before it aired the qualitative dip might still have been a blip. Instead it finally terminated the minimum expectation that the show would always be worth watching. There were more bad episodes later - many of them - but none of them were ever so disappointing again.

Futurama had a couple of standout terrible episodes to me for a very particular reason, both from the last (I think) season. Proposition Infinity and The Mutants Are Revolting.

Both episodes came off to me as efforts to "fix" the setting, as if the writers wouldn't have felt comfortable leaving the setting alone without "solving" some of the depicted society's cruel, arbitrary rules. It's a much better use of a setting to depict a broken society's impact on people rather than to have society fix itself completely on a whim.

Leela's Homeworld, for example.

Although I will say also that Futurama doesn't seem to have aged very well in my view, so that may just be my reaction from being exposed to things with a more "modern" writing style.

Both are from the first half of the penultimate season which I think was the most inconsistent period in the show's run. After seven years it seemed to take them a while to find their feet again and readjust to the episodic format.

Proposition Infinity I think was intended as a satire on a then-current debate. It was a bit on-the-nose at the time and ten years on it has dated. But I can live with that. The Mutants Are Revolting didn't do much for me though.

Babylon 5 - TKO. A ludicrously stupid and pointless episode about BOXING IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE

Speaking of boxing - the boxing episode in Battlestar Galactica. Had they ended it after the fight between Adama and the Chief, it would have been mediocre and forgettable. But then going for another bout and getting wrapped up in the Lee-Starbuck drama that I don't think anyone really cared about, that was just dire.

I'd actually like to suggest something harder. Are there any great episodes of shows you don't like?

I don't really like The Crown, but I thought both Assassins and Aberfan were great.

I'm sure there must have been at least one episode of Scandal that I thought was good at the time, but I'm struggling to think of any.

Most of the time, though, I give up on shows I don't like after a few episodes anyway. I don't have a partner or housemate to push me to keep watching or put it on in the background, etc. so I just find something else.

[Rydiro]

I'm terrible with names (If she was named Jeru Kirko I'd remember her name just as well as Picardo's), but I'm like 95% sure that's Seven of Nine. Because now that you remind me, yeah, she was awesome.

You know, the writing must have been really trash. I saw Kate Mulgrew in Orange is the New Black. She blew my mind. How can you write that amount of talent into the trash that is captain Janeway?

[Peelee]

You know, the writing must have been really trash. I saw Kate Mulgrew in Orange is the New Black. She blew my mind. How can you write that amount of talent into the trash that is captain Janeway?

Oh, let me tell you a story about Mrs. Columbo...

[Hunter Noventa]

You know, the writing must have been really trash. I saw Kate Mulgrew in Orange is the New Black. She blew my mind. How can you write that amount of talent into the trash that is captain Janeway?

A consequence of shows with a large multitude of writers, which was a thing for well, every Star Trek series. Some episodes she was written well, the problem was she wasn't written consistently.

[tomandtish]

I'd add Eureka's season 3 Here Comes the Suns to the list. Now, Your Millage May Vary when it comes to Eureka, but I appreciated the Syfy trinity of Sanctuary, Warehouse 13 and Eureka, because they formed a very interesting "TV Universe." The series conceits were related enough that you could have characters travel between shows for cameos, but different enough that they don't step on each others' toes: Sanctuary does cryptids, Warehouse 13 does old, magic junk, and Eureka handles the superscience (And is also more geographically contained).

Don't forget Alphas was part of that universe. Dr. Vanessa Calder (Artie's girlfriend) appeared in the episode Never Let Me Go.

[Azuresun]

Yeah, I have no problem with them being able to build a few extra torpedoes, scrounge together parts to make another shuttle, maaaaaaaybe the Delta Flyer if I'm feeling generous. But like, the entire thematic point of them being out in the Delta Quadrant is to have them be cut off from the Federation, so no carefree luxuries like ice cream whenever you feel like or impromptu concerts whenever you feel like replicating up a cello or goofing off in a holodeckohwait.

That's brilliant!

Voyager probably has the biggest waste of a cool premise of any Star Trek show. Bring in new Delta Quadrant aliens! Change the design of the ship as they patch it up with locally sourced parts! Have supply crises and rationing! Just do something with the idea of being alone and surviving on your wits in uncharted space! Every now and then the show would actually remember that it wasn't TNG, and we'd get a cool bit like the introduction of the Borg, where the start of the episode really sold "we are so, so out of our depth here", but they were few and far between.

Doctor Who is....when, it's good, it's amazing. When it's bad, it's terrible. I think the one that stands out for me is the one that concluded the....which season was it? The one that starts off with the Richard Nixon cameo.

Spoiler

Show

Okay, so the premise of the season, which we've been beaten over and over the head with, was that the Doctor has to die at the ordained time, or the universe breaks. That's what all the drama has been based on for multiple episodes, with growing fear, suspicions and attempts to find a way to cheat fate. That's a problem right away, because nobody believes the series is going to permanently kill it's main character.

And it turns out, very suddenly, that he only needs to be somewhere on the beach, and appear to die. So of course, he uses a workaround to cheat death, one of many he could have used even if we just limit ourselves to technology seen in this season. That wet farting sound you hear is all of the build-up dissipating.

Not to mention which, it retroactively makes the pretty cool conclusion to the previous season into a damp squib. Who were the Silence? Oh, just these random aliens who were maybe working with the villains from this arc or something. Why did they blow up the TARDIS and screw up the entire universe? Dunno.

It was about then that I started to get the impression that Moffat was brilliant at creating mood and coming up with cool ideas for an episode's premise....but wasn't so hot at tying those cool ideas into a coherent and satisfying multi-episode arc.

[Aedilred]

Spoiler

Show

Not to mention which, it retroactively makes the pretty cool conclusion to the previous season into a damp squib. Who were the Silence? Oh, just these random aliens who were maybe working with the villains from this arc or something. Why did they blow up the TARDIS and screw up the entire universe? Dunno.

To be fair, this part of it was answered later. Much later. After everyone had forgotten about it, and even then only if you had a good memory and were paying attention. It was addressed at the end of The Wedding of River Song by Dorium, even, but it was in Moffatese so nobody had any idea what it meant.

Spoiler

Show

It's a rogue chapter of the Papal Mainframe - which uses those aliens as confessional priests. The events in The Time of the Doctor were predicted, sort of, at least to the extent that it was established that if the Doctor spoke his name at Trenzalore, the consequences would be terrible (presumably a resumption of the Time War). At Trenzalore, the Papal Mainframe addressed the situation by maintaining a truce between the Doctor and his enemies. But the Kovarian chapter decided to take the prophecy more literally and kill the Doctor before he got there to prevent the events coming to pass. They tried this twice, once by destroying the TARDIS (which failed, thanks to the second Big Bang) and again by stealing Melody and training her as an assassin to kill him at Lake Silencio (which failed thanks to the assistance of the Tesselecta).

There is, however, the major unanswered question of what happened to the Kovarian chapter. In the alternate timeline of The Wedding of River Song Madam Kovarian was killed by Amy and the Silence, but in the main timeline she was never seen again after she escaped from Demons Run, and she wasn't acting alone.

Moffat can do some great stuff, especially when it comes to time-travel related shenanigans. The Big Bang, Blink and even The Curse of Fatal Death play around with the possibilities of time travel in clever and entertaining ways to make it a part of the story rather than just a set-up. But when he gets it wrong, and especially when he gets bogged down in his own pseudo-philosophical claptrap, ye gods it can be awful.

The Wedding of River Song was perhaps the nadir of Moffat's too-clever-for-its-own-good plotting and it was pretty dreadful. But as you say, Doctor Who is so hit and miss that I have to query whether it's really a great show at all, or whether that is a particularly poor episode by its standards. The one that stands out for me as the real turkey in the New Who era is Fear Her which was just dire, but it's not like bad episodes are in short supply.

[Peelee]

it was in Moffatese so nobody had any idea what it meant.

I've connected with this sentence in so many ways.

The Wedding of River Song was perhaps the nadir of Moffat's too-clever-for-its-own-good plotting and it was pretty dreadful. But as you say, Doctor Who is so hit and miss that I have to query whether it's really a great show at all, or whether that is a particularly poor episode by its standards.

I wholly agree with this. It's incredibly swingy, and once Matt Smith came on it became far more bad than good and I just stopped altogether. And basically embraced this.

[Rodin]

The Wedding of River Song was perhaps the nadir of Moffat's too-clever-for-its-own-good plotting and it was pretty dreadful. But as you say, Doctor Who is so hit and miss that I have to query whether it's really a great show at all, or whether that is a particularly poor episode by its standards. The one that stands out for me as the real turkey in the New Who era is Fear Her which was just dire, but it's not like bad episodes are in short supply.

With my sudden abundance of free time I've been catching up on TV I got behind on. I made the mistake of getting caught up on Picard before trying to finish off Doctor Who. Good Lord. The writing quality isn't even close. And yet, it's still some of the best Doctor Who I've seen in recent years. I was just so starved for good Sci-Fi that Doctor Who seemed great in comparison.

Speaking of terrible Moffat - the final episode of Sherlock. Instead of witty crime solving, we are treated to a Saw movie in which all our characters act like utter idiots. That finally broke me and I swore never to watch Moffat again unless someone else watched it first and told me that it's good.

[Caledonian]

But that's how Sherlock started - with Sherlock acting like an idiot. (You never, ever, play against the Sicilian Gambit, because even if your opponent isn't cheating you have only a 50% chance to win.)

[Azuresun]

To be fair, this part of it was answered later. Much later. After everyone had forgotten about it, and even then only if you had a good memory and were paying attention. It was addressed at the end of The Wedding of River Song by Dorium, even, but it was in Moffatese so nobody had any idea what it meant.

Ah, thanks. I do vaguely remember that, but it felt like a hasty "Oh crap, gotta explain that bit!", given how throwaway the explanation was, delivered in the middle of an exposition dump about something else.

[Gnoman]

For me, the absolute worst is Star Trek TNG's "Homeward". What few interesting bits it had were mangled terribly, and the core premise was not only awful but badly handled.

[Kantaki]

But that's how Sherlock started - with Sherlock acting like an idiot. (You never, ever, play against the Sicilian Gambit, because even if your opponent isn't cheating you have only a 50% chance to win.)

I mean, you can play. You should just remember that both drinks are the wrong choice.
The right choice is either the bottle or, less risky, using your weapon that you're better aiming at the other guy.
That goes doubly if you know they're a Princess Bride fan.

Also, bad episodes on great shows, Babylon 5 had the one with the disappeared Sector.
I mean the maps are missing a bit of the Station.
Concerning but, not bad as a B-Plot.
Making it the A-Plot and involving some space-monster and the wackos who want to get eaten?
No. At least the Boxing one made sense.
Both on its own and in the context of B5's (the station) purpose.

[Aedilred]

I wholly agree with this. It's incredibly swingy, and once Matt Smith came on it became far more bad than good and I just stopped altogether. And basically embraced this.

I think there's an element of personal taste. Overall I prefer the Moffat era to the RTD one (i.e. starting when Matt Smith arrived), partly because I just prefer Smith and Capaldi to Eccleston and Tennant, but also because RTD has a real talent for annoying me even on his good days. There aren't many episodes from the RTD era I remember as being excellent, and those that were were often written by Moffat. There were a couple of turkeys, but once Moffat took over the whole thing seemed to become even more inconsistent.

I think in some ways their respective season finales are a reasonable way to compare them because they exhibit some of the worst features of either. Moffat's tend to be technically better plotted with less reliance on complete ass-pull deus ex machina effects. But they also have a tendency to overcomplicate themselves and, while nominally tying up loose ends, do so incomprehensibly at a million miles an hour. Moffat also has a tendency to return to the "destruction of the universe", which he admittedly does better than RTD, well a bit too often. As a friend of mine commented after The Name of the Doctor: "just once it would be nice to have a season finale where the stars aren't going out..."

Funnily enough the best finale for either of them was probably the one on the lowest scale (in universe-destruction terms), and featuring one of Who's least compelling and threatening villains: the Cybermen in each instance. Though they upped the ante in each case by adding a better one (the Daleks and the Master, respectively).

[Lemmy]

There's that Batman TAS episode where Batman fights evil farmers and giant bugs... Or was it in Superman TAS??? The episode is so bad I can't even recall what series it's from... ><'