Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    As the header asks.

    I mean, without international trade, there ain't much hydrocarbures available. All fossil fuel are unavailable unless produced locally.

    What are left? Nuclear power plants? Hydro dams?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bristol, UK

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    As the header asks.

    I mean, without international trade, there ain't much hydrocarbures available. All fossil fuel are unavailable unless produced locally.

    What are left? Nuclear power plants? Hydro dams?
    Wind power, and solar power obviously, and depending on where you are, maybe coal or oil?
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Geothermal in some areas.

    For areas near the coast there is also tidal and wave energy, and I believe the Netherlands have some generators that use the hydrostatic (?) pressure based on the difference in salt concentratiosn between fresh and sea water!

    Gas is more widely available than you might think as where there are already connecting pipelines it can be traded without human travel or contact (I believe some gas from the russian gas fields is making it's way to England this way now - it could get to Scotland, but enough is produced there that it doesn't flow that way yet.)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aedilred's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Bristol
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    The main generation methods are "combustible fuels"*, nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, hydro and geothermal.

    If international trade is halted you will be reliant on what is available in your local environment. Importing coal, gas, oil or uranium would no longer be possible, but if you're an exporting country, you have use your own supply, and you can always adapt coal plants to run on wood and plant trees, almost anywhere.

    The rest would have to be made up by some combination of the remainder. This would obviously vary from country to country, both in terms of what is available (a landlocked country can't use tidal, geothermal isn't viable everywhere, etc.) but also depending on how much of a power gap they needed to fill.

    It may be possible to generate nuclear power from other radioactive sources, but that technology doesn't really exist yet.

    *coal, gas, oil, wood, etc.
    Empire! A community world-building game, always recruiting

    GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
    Red Sabres - Season I Cup Champions, two-time Cup Semifinalists
    Anlec Razors - Two-time Cup Semifinalists
    Bad Badenhof Bats - Season VII Cup Champions
    League Wiki

    Spoiler: Previous Avatars
    Show
    (by Strawberries)
    (by Rain Dragon)

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gomipile's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    There's also biomass. Sure, it's "just solar with extra steps." But it also usually gives you fuel with better energy density than any battery.

    Also, don't forget that the humble wood stove is also a biomass energy device. And since the advent of pellet stoves, they have been adapted to use many widely available fuels. There are people around here who use field corn, soybeans, waste paper, processed brush hog cuttings, and of course regular firewood. The more modern stoves sit in their own tiny shack away from the house, and provide winter heat and year-round hot water. Granted, some of them use propane to start, and some exclusively use propane for hot water in warm months.

    Regardless of how basic that sounds, it does take some load off of the grid and the fossil fuel market. And if use of biomass scales up, at least it's more carbon neutral than fossil fuels are. Especially in places like where I live, where we could use more dead snag logs removed from the forests for safety reasons.

    And yes, plenty of people around here use such long-dead wood in their stoves. It's not always as consistent to burn as live-harvested and well-seasoned hardwood, but it will keep you alive in the winter, and the price is right at almost free plus labor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Just a question: what makes you think international trade is going to be halted?

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Also, how would that affect the almost completely automated tanker force?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Just a question: what makes you think international trade is going to be halted?
    Actual closing of borders* involves stopping everything, including trade, citizens living abroad, etc. Even bringing the military home you send them through a 2-week quarantine. Now, I'd peg the chances of that as somewhere between "slim" and "none", since it does nothing to help stem the spread of a disease once it's already in your country**, and Covid is in every country by now, but it doesn't actually have to be the smart decision for it to happen. One person in power panics, makes a bad call, then refuses to reverse it for fear of looking foolish, and suddenly whichever country that is is cut off from the outside world.

    On to what the OP asked, this is one of the reasons to focus on renewable energy, the supply lines are a lot safer. Which you use depends on your region(Ohio has steady, reliable winds, but about 12 hours of sun per year, so they're probably not building solar panels), but renewables have been cheap and ready to go for a while. The real question is how long it takes to actually build the power supply, especially with your economy completely shut down. It's not a good thing to use to respond to emergencies.

    In the US, I expect us to just drill more oil, buy from Alberta, and maybe switch over to Natural Gas/ban flaring. We've got too many automobiles that need gas to make any big pivots away from petroleum.

    *Meaning, not what has been happening recently when "Borders are Closed" was the headline
    **ask Pandemic players about that

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    As the header asks.

    I mean, without international trade, there ain't much hydrocarbures available. All fossil fuel are unavailable unless produced locally.

    What are left? Nuclear power plants? Hydro dams?
    Depends on where you are. Hydrocarbons are in many places, but they may be of different types. Natural gas has boomed in the US, for instance, and despite being a historical importer, we're now net exporters. So, exploration for more hydrocarbon resources is a potential option.

    If we're talking about pandemics, fossil fuels are probably among the least risky elements in the supply chains. The nature of tanker ships is that they have very small crews, in contact with nobody for a long time. They're not going to be hands on with the cargo, and even if someone somehow sneezed in the gas, It's...just going to be burned off. It's probably the safest possible cargo. Person to person contact is usually a lot more of a vector.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2020-03-21 at 11:09 PM.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Depends on where you are. Hydrocarbons are in many places, but they may be of different types. Natural gas has boomed in the US, for instance, and despite being a historical importer, we're now net exporters. So, exploration for more hydrocarbon resources is a potential option.
    In the U.S., our greatest liability would be oil because we depend so much on gasoline--specifically cheap gasoline, since we have our own petroleum sources, they just tend to be in ecologically sensitive places and/or more expensive sources to exploit. In terms of electricity production, we have massive coal reserves and if it came down to it, we could rely on it for pretty much all of our capacity. We've shifted away in large part because enough people are starting to care about climate change enough to make an economic impact on the power industry, coupled with the fact that natural gas (both imported and domestic) and renewable sources have made substantial gains in terms of costs and other advantages.

    Though industrial use might require other solutions (maybe small-scale nuclear plants), solar is now efficient to the degree that it could viably power all household requirements in a lot of places. The challenge is that with zero international trade, I'm not sure how expensive the solar panels and battery systems would end up being in many places--if they can be manufactured at all.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    The Strategic Petroleum Reserve has like three years of fuel for our use.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    The Strategic Petroleum Reserve has like three years of fuel for our use.
    That's true, and they've certainly been willing to release parts of it in response to temporary economic crises, but it's not viable on the long-term.

    Also, depending on the geopolitical landscape, it might not be viable on the short term. Some of our Navy is nuclear powered, but we still rely heavily on fossil fuels for military operations. The Arleigh Burke class destroy is the backbone of the U.S. Navy and is diesel powered, meaning oil. Its replacement runs on gas turbines, which means that it relies on fuel that is much easier to source domestically, but it's got obstacles to overcome before it can be deployed, and some argue that it isn't a suitable replacement for all of the roles our current destroy fleet serves. Aviation gas comes from petroleum, and our tanks run on jet fuel instead of diesel. That latter part means that our tanks have the fraction of the efficiency of diesel powered tanks. Ours are designed the way they are to integrate better into our pretty amazing military supply chains, and they do get performance gains from what I understand (plus, we get to say that our tanks run on jet fuel), but it also increases our reliance on that strategic reserve if it ever came down to it.

    (Also, I know that some of our tanks can run on other fuels, but from what I understand because of how their engines are designed, it means that they would also use diesel much less efficiently than something running off of a dedicated diesel turbine.)

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    Gas is more widely available than you might think as where there are already connecting pipelines it can be traded without human travel or contact
    But that's still trade. If all international trade stops because of some political meltdown we can't speculate on any further here than the gas stops flowing.




    Solar power sounds nice, but the production of solar panels and the rare earth minerals needed for it mean that almost no country can currently easily scale up their solar energy production And it's going to take a while before they can. China could do it... Hydroelectric dams are probably overall the best non-fossil option. Slow to put out, and not suited for most environments, but not super logistically complex to make, very powerful, reliable and they can be regulated. Windmills are also relatively simple to make, biomass and whatever fossil fuels you can dig up locally will also be needed.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-03-22 at 05:00 PM.
    The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    If international trade stops, it's more or less back to the middle ages. After a majority of people has died of starvation.
    Even if you have the energy to keep your local economy running, you're not going to have the materials to produce any factory products. And you won't be getting any spare parts for your machine. Really big countries like the US, China, and Russia might do a bit better because their huge territory has a lot of resources. But most countries in Europe are much too small to cover even the most basic industrial resources from local sources.

    You'd have to cut your own trees for lumber and grow all your own food. All your metal needs will have to be covered by melting scrap. That's easy enough. People did it in the Iron Age. It won't be airplane or gas turbine grade steel, though.

    On the plus side, keeping borders closed in those conditions would be impossible, so you can start trading with your neighbors by smuggling.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Beneath the Leaves of Kaendor - Writing Sword & Sorcery
    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    If international trade stops, it's more or less back to the middle ages. After a majority of people has died of starvation.
    Even if you have the energy to keep your local economy running, you're not going to have the materials to produce any factory products. And you won't be getting any spare parts for your machine. Really big countries like the US, China, and Russia might do a bit better because their huge territory has a lot of resources. But most countries in Europe are much too small to cover even the most basic industrial resources from local sources.

    You'd have to cut your own trees for lumber and grow all your own food. All your metal needs will have to be covered by melting scrap. That's easy enough. People did it in the Iron Age. It won't be airplane or gas turbine grade steel, though.

    On the plus side, keeping borders closed in those conditions would be impossible, so you can start trading with your neighbors by smuggling.
    I think this overstates things drastically for most countries.

    It is very likely that most things would be more expensive in most countries, but the vast majority of countries would be able to maintain levels of technology and standards of living much better than in the middle ages even if the trade cessation continued for a number of years.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Food would be an issue, though. Very few countries can feed themselves any more.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Food would be an issue, though. Very few countries can feed themselves any more.
    True, some wouldn't. I think 'very few' probably overstates it though. A source on which countries have a food surplus and deficit follows. Unfortunately it only shows the top ten on each end of the scale. It's not clear which countries would be 100 or above (so self sufficient).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...fficiency_rate

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    True, some wouldn't. I think 'very few' probably overstates it though. A source on which countries have a food surplus and deficit follows. Unfortunately it only shows the top ten on each end of the scale. It's not clear which countries would be 100 or above (so self sufficient).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...fficiency_rate
    Those numbers are probably less static than they seem as well. The Netherlands appear in the bottom ten list in that link, with around 50% self sufficiency, yet we're also one of the biggest exporters of agricultural goods in the world, despite the small size and high population density. There are a bunch of products we grow a lot more of than we use, like tomatoes, cucumbers, meat (sheep in particular are almost exclusively exported), apples, pears and flowers. By shifting both our diet and our ground use we should be able to shift quite some ways towards a neutral 100% in as little as one to a few years. It's not as efficient on a global scale (Dutch dune sand for instance is ridiculously suited for growing flowers, it's more efficient to grow flowers for Italian consumption there and olives for Dutch consumption in Italy than to try and grow everything locally), but it can probably be done.

    (Energy wise on the other hand we'd be pretty screwed. If we evacuate Groningen against the earthquakes we can live of gas and oil for a few years, but after that we're in for a massive transition into mass windmills and probably some damming or the big rivers, now that they've become useless for international inland shipping anyway. And we'd have to do that while the profitable transportation sector implodes.)
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-03-23 at 05:28 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    That's true, and they've certainly been willing to release parts of it in response to temporary economic crises, but it's not viable on the long-term.
    If you are locking down international trade to prevent disease, it'll be over one way or the other within three years. Either it'll be done, or it'll be found to have not worked long before that time. Either way, there's little reason to design an economy around isolationism. Only one country really, really embraces that, and it's North Korea, which has an economy that has...problems.

    In the end, all areas have things they are better at, and if we all do what we're good at and swap, everyone's better off. You can't halt international trade long term without losing those advantages and having a regressing standard of living.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    The main generation methods are "combustible fuels"*, nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, hydro and geothermal.

    If international trade is halted you will be reliant on what is available in your local environment. Importing coal, gas, oil or uranium would no longer be possible, but if you're an exporting country, you have use your own supply, and you can always adapt coal plants to run on wood and plant trees, almost anywhere.

    The rest would have to be made up by some combination of the remainder. This would obviously vary from country to country, both in terms of what is available (a landlocked country can't use tidal, geothermal isn't viable everywhere, etc.) but also depending on how much of a power gap they needed to fill.

    It may be possible to generate nuclear power from other radioactive sources, but that technology doesn't really exist yet.

    *coal, gas, oil, wood, etc.
    But that's the thing. A lot of the more complex extraction process is heavily dependant on a lot of technological, energy and material investment. In a way, the whole point of international trade is to allow that sort of scale of project.

    Let's say we all needed to be truly self sufficient. Which energy sources would be able to keep running for a material amount of time? I am talking 3-4 generations.

    What's the fuel lifetime of a nuclear reactor? 20, 50 years?

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    But that's the thing. A lot of the more complex extraction process is heavily dependant on a lot of technological, energy and material investment. In a way, the whole point of international trade is to allow that sort of scale of project.
    The whole point of international trade is to make money. Countries could be self-sufficient in ways that they are not mostly because of costs. Take rare earth elements for example. They're all mined in China these days, but they don't have to be. The US used to be the world leader in rare earth production all from one mine site in California. That mine still exists and has in fact recently reopened at a reduced operating level for deeply political reasons that need not be discussed in detail here. The relevant point is that the US and many other nations have available sites for rare earth production but they don't use them because it's cheaper to buy them from China because, again for political reasons, production is much cheaper there.

    Restructuring the economy of any highly developed nation to function without international trade would be an extremely complex and economically painful endeavor, but raw materials aren't actually the issue for most such nations (there are exceptions, like Japan), simply expense. This sort of expense would be incredible - the mention of North Korea as a comparable case is relevant, and North Korea receives considerable imports from China - and would be much worse the smaller the country involved happened to be.

    However, a complete shuttering of international trade is really quite an absurd scenario, especially considering that it is quite possible to send materials across borders without any direct human contact at all, whether using ships. Vessels are onloaded and offloaded using giant mechanical cranes or massive pipe hook-ups, the crew doesn't need to physically meet with anyone on shore. Or rail, a train can be sent across a border without anyone on board at all without any significant difficulty and just let coast to a stop. Trade can be disease proofed far easier than people can.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    What's the fuel lifetime of a nuclear reactor? 20, 50 years?
    Depending on the model, 6-12 months. After that, the fuel rods are removed and shipped to a specialized plant for recycling where the inert material is removed and the radioactive material is formed into new fuel rods to be placed in another reactor. The inert material (not really inert, just really low on radioactivity) amounts to roughly equivalent to a two liter soda bottle, which gets a lead coating and is stored in a specialized vault until the half-life of certain isotopes of trace elements run down until it is truly inert (can be a couple centuries to several thousand years, depending on exactly what is present). Inert in this case meaning about as radioactive as the rest of the planet, which I'll remind the class is drawing heavy gammas from both the sun and the core.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Depending on the model, 6-12 months. After that, the fuel rods are removed and shipped to a specialized plant for recycling where the inert material is removed and the radioactive material is formed into new fuel rods to be placed in another reactor. The inert material (not really inert, just really low on radioactivity) amounts to roughly equivalent to a two liter soda bottle, which gets a lead coating and is stored in a specialized vault until the half-life of certain isotopes of trace elements run down until it is truly inert (can be a couple centuries to several thousand years, depending on exactly what is present). Inert in this case meaning about as radioactive as the rest of the planet, which I'll remind the class is drawing heavy gammas from both the sun and the core.
    Wow. It's a lot shorter than I thought. I thought nuclear reactors could go on for a bit longer than that.

    Do hydro plants need constant upkeep beside structural maintenance?

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Wow. It's a lot shorter than I thought. I thought nuclear reactors could go on for a bit longer than that.
    I think the reactors aboard nuclear-powered ships and submarines can go 10-20 years between refuelling, but they tend to have much lower power outputs than full-on power stations do.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gomipile's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Wow. It's a lot shorter than I thought. I thought nuclear reactors could go on for a bit longer than that.

    Do hydro plants need constant upkeep beside structural maintenance?
    Any turbine based generation plant needs constant monitoring to determine if maintenance will be necessary. There are pairs transducers on the turbine shafts that detect wobble. If the wobble gets out of spec, that unit is taken offline and the bearings are rebuilt.

    A family member of mine used to work at a company which produces steam turbines for power plants all over the world. They definitely got repeat service business from individual customer locations on a timescale of less than a decade.

    So, plan on each turbine needing a new set of bearings every 5 to 15 years or so? And, like I implied, you'll need a monitoring crew on site 24-7, every day of the year.

    Also, most power plants only need enough crew on hand to push a few buttons to shutdown at any time in an emergency. However, I know nuclear plants keep more staff on site and on call at all times for emergency response. They also have much more training their employees need to go through for disaster preparedness.

    I imagine hydro might lie in between fossil fuel plants and nuclear in that regard, since a mistake could lead to really bad flooding disasters.

    Also, speaking of the energy industry, petroleum refineries have similar staffing requirements to nuclear plants. The amount of volatiles on site at refineries is truly immense, and refinery accidents can and have caused large explosions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think the reactors aboard nuclear-powered ships and submarines can go 10-20 years between refuelling, but they tend to have much lower power outputs than full-on power stations do.
    True, but maint is still a thing, and they have significant monitoring and operating staff. So, lack of fuel isnt really a big deal, but they do require some maint.

    If Im looking at a completely self sufficient solution that has to last for generations, Im probably goin' back to a woodstone or a boiler.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2020-03-24 at 12:00 PM.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    True, but maint is still a thing, and they have significant monitoring and operating staff. So, lack of fuel isnt really a big deal, but they do require some maint.

    If Im looking at a completely self sufficient solution that has to last for generations, Im probably goin' back to a woodstone or a boiler.
    You don't bootstrap a societal rebuild with woodstove.

    If society collapse in any capacity, energy production facility will provide a large advantage to any burgeoning civilisation.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    You don't bootstrap a societal rebuild with woodstove.
    Gonna have to disagree to an extent. Assuming you have some means of generating power from steam, which is all a nuclear reactor is doing, it doesn't matter overmuch how you generate that steam--a wood burning boiler would work just as well, albeit requiring much more manual labour to keep the fires fed.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    If you really want a truly long-lasting and maintenance-free energy source, what you really want to do is generate the biggest ball of Plutonium you possibly can. This is, after all, what we already do for long-lasting self-sufficient devices, and if the Voyager spacecrafts are any indication, it works quite well.

    No, there, um, reasons, why society doesn't do this, but if you were doing something bizarre like creating a Fallout-style vault, that's probably the way to go.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If international trade halts, what are the remaining sources of energy

    RTGs don't really produce an awful lot of power, though. The ones on the Voyager probes contain 4.5kg of plutonium and generated around 157W of power when new, but that power output degrades over time as the plutonium decays into less radioactive materials. 157W isn't really a lot of power for such a lot of highly difficult to find material, the only reason these things are used in deep space probes is because there literally isn't anything else that can provide that sort of power at those distances from the Sun. On Earth, you'd get more power from a reasonably sized solar panel and it would have just as many moving parts as the RTG.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •