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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post

    Considering the Str of most wizards, it may very well be a necessity.
    Wait. Wait. Wait.

    Why doesn't the wizard have 18 strength? What kind of optimizer doesn't reroll their stats until they have 18s in everything. Seriously I thought we were trying to optimize here.

    Also what with this whole starmetal thing. Any DM worth his salt (DM here being a stand in for this is how the world/setting operates) would say though it is not explicitly listed starmetal (and I Can't Believe It's Not Starmetal TM) falls under the things this spell can't can't create. And you are incorrect, no reasonable person would read POA and see the "such as" as not a catch all the DM can use to prevent players from making certain things. I believe starmetal and "I Can't Believe It's Not Starmetal TM" falls under special properties with the whole extra damage against undead mentioned by the Azure City blacksmith.

  2. - Top - End - #272
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    Rocks fall, everybody dies?
    But would the falling rocks contain starmetal, iron, or something that looks exactly like starmetal with exactly the same properties but is both worthless and valuable?

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Part of Vs current character is that they have learned to focus less on flashy spells and more on practical spells that do a lot more. Conjuration is a school full of practical spells that do a lot. V could bemoan how they have made choices that made them less effective for the party and attribute it to the same hubris that led them to mass murder and driving their family away, with the resolution being that V could make practical spells for Evocation and become more effective with it.
    So why didn't that happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Because I didn't ever think of that. Sometimes, it's just that simple.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
    Wait. Wait. Wait.

    Why doesn't the wizard have 18 strength? What kind of optimizer doesn't reroll their stats until they have 18s in everything. Seriously I thought we were trying to optimize here.
    I assumed we were working off of the point-buy system.

    Also what with this whole starmetal thing. Any DM worth his salt (DM here being a stand in for this is how the world/setting operates) would say though it is not explicitly listed starmetal (and I Can't Believe It's Not Starmetal TM) falls under the things this spell can't can't create. And you are incorrect, no reasonable person would read POA and see the "such as" as not a catch all the DM can use to prevent players from making certain things. I believe starmetal and "I Can't Believe It's Not Starmetal TM" falls under special properties with the whole extra damage against undead mentioned by the Azure City blacksmith.
    And why wouldnít the DM scale the monsters up instead? Or even give the monsters access to I Canít Believe Itís Not Starmetal TM in order to make things both even and more interesting? When [I]both[/] sides are allowed to get away with certain interpretations, things become much more interesting.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    I assumed we were working off of the point-buy system.
    I'm almost certain we aren't, Roy's points are just like, amazing, the closest stuff to dump stats is like a 12, while V has like two good stats? Also, since I've read the entire history of the C&LG thread over the course of a month (because I am in fact insane) I believe I remember someone saying that it is impossible, there is no point buy that could produce both of them.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elanís Exception, ďWho wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?Ē. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peeleeís Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Actually, ďsuch asĒ means ďfor exampleĒ or ďof a kind that,Ē and does not say ďbut not limited to.Ē It also says that it cannot reproduce the special qualities of cold iron, and not starmetal. Also, ďgreat intrinsic valueĒ means ďgreat natural valueĒ instead of ďgreat artificial value,Ē like what we assign it, and starmetal is abundant in space, so it might not have great intrinsic value.
    So then why are things like gold and gems mentioned, given that they exist in literal infinite quantities in the elemental plane of earth? If intrinsic value is based solely on scarcity as you are claiming, then they would be the most worthless items in this universe. Your definition of "great intrinsic value" is therefore clearly different than the definition that the person who wrote this spell used, which for all intents and purposes means it is wrong. The person who wrote this spell obviously used "great intrinsic value" to mean "very useful", so starmetal wouldn't qualify. If not, then the rules are entirely worthless, because (as others pointed out) you can use the spell to create something which is completely equal to gold in all aspects but isn't gold.

    Yes, you've done a great job of proving that you can find loopholes in the rules that make them useless. I still don't know what that has anything to do with this webcomic.
    Avatar by Gurgleflep

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I'm almost certain we aren't, Roy's points are just like, amazing, the closest stuff to dump stats is like a 12, while V has like two good stats? Also, since I've read the entire history of the C&LG thread over the course of a month (because I am in fact insane) I believe I remember someone saying that it is impossible, there is no point buy that could produce both of them.
    V could be working with numerous flaws that decrease their stats to such a devastating low.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    And why wouldnít the DM scale the monsters up instead? Or even give the monsters access to I Canít Believe Itís Not Starmetal TM in order to make things both even and more interesting? When [I]both[/] sides are allowed to get away with certain interpretations, things become much more interesting.
    I dunno, random mooks with +1,000,000 boni on their gear don't really sound interesting to me.
    On either side of the table.
    It's the same with certain tactics. Sure, scry & die is a great tactic, but it gets boring and if the DM uses it... Well, there goes the campaign.

    Give me a blaster wizard with conjuration banned instead. Lets me unleash my inner pyromaniac.
    Also quote Ray Bradbury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I'm almost certain we aren't, Roy's points are just like, amazing, the closest stuff to dump stats is like a 12, while V has like two good stats? Also, since I've read the entire history of the C&LG thread over the course of a month (because I am in fact insane) I believe I remember someone saying that it is impossible, there is no point buy that could produce both of them.
    I think the entire Order has stats that are just high enough that they can (not) do whatever the Giant needs them to.
    Same with their available skills and spells.

    Hence why V can't telepork and Elan is better at horse riding than Roy "Goat Herder" Greenhilt.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der tršumenden BŁcher")



  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    I assumed we were working off of the point-buy system.
    Twas a joke. Though, why am I not surprised your objection is with assumed system and not the fact that in an actual game that would be super annoying to wait for someone to keep rolling and in Oots it wouldn't work because people are born as characters not rolling characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    And why wouldnít the DM scale the monsters up instead? Or even give the monsters access to I Canít Believe Itís Not Starmetal TM in order to make things both even and more interesting? When [I]both[/] sides are allowed to get away with certain interpretations, things become much more interesting.
    First Question:
    I assume in 3.5e (I'm more familiar with 5e) that scaling monsters takes time. I don't know how much guidance is given to DMs on balancing encounters. Or how much balancing takes into account cheesing access to powerful magical armors and weapons made of special metals. If I was a DM I know I'd rather spend time designing or brainstorming new dungeons than re-balancing my old ones. I don't want to waste my time because my characters cheesed themselves extra magic weapons through RAW loopholes than the plain as day RAI wording. That's not to say a DM should never have to adjust there world or encounters in response to players, even when getting stronger in clever ways. That's not the same as allowing clear manipulation of the rules.

    Also maybe the DM wants, or thinks thematically, starmetal or "I Canít Believe Itís Not Starmetal TM," should be treated like adamantine and mithril. Not everything has to be about mechanics. Some things can instead serve the story or theme.

    Second Question:
    What's interesting about giving both sides +5 weapons with bonuses against undead? Its just a straight stat boost for both sides. Everyone's the same where's the interest? That's not to say magic weapons are bad I just fail to see what makes this interesting.
    Last edited by Crixus33; 2020-04-06 at 07:45 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crixus33 View Post
    Twas a joke. Though, why am I not surprised your objection is with assumed system and not the fact that in an actual game that would be super annoying to wait for someone to keep rolling and in Oots it wouldn't work because people are born as characters not rolling characters.
    Obviously the gods are rolling up the stats every time a child is born.
    Or at least their staff does.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der tršumenden BŁcher")



  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I'm almost certain we aren't, Roy's points are just like, amazing, the closest stuff to dump stats is like a 12, while V has like two good stats? Also, since I've read the entire history of the C&LG thread over the course of a month (because I am in fact insane) I believe I remember someone saying that it is impossible, there is no point buy that could produce both of them.
    Roy won some of V's points playing no limit hold 'em.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    And why wouldnít the DM scale the monsters up instead? Or even give the monsters access to I Canít Believe Itís Not Starmetal TM in order to make things both even and more interesting? When [I]both[/] sides are allowed to get away with certain interpretations, things become much more interesting.
    This way lies the Tippyverse, and even Tippy wasn't crazy enough to argue you could use PAO to turn sand into a metal that's exactly like adamantine but is worthless for some reason. He just set up an economy based on repeating wish traps vomiting out free gold and magic items and megalopolis cities using magic to hold impossible structures together while the unwashed millions of citizens are sustained by free food from repeating create food and water traps while the Wizard Kings engage in political intrigue based around permanent teleportation circles and the implications they have on warfare.

    In 3.5, when you scale everyone up you either make it rocket tag or no one can even scratch anyone else, or very very rarely you end up exactly where you started balance-wise only now the DM has to do 5 times the work to not veer off into one of the first two.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Rolling up characters is the only way I see Roy having such universally good stats. Seriously, how does he have no bad stats??

    Also, what is V's second good stat? I thought int was literally her only good one.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Rolling up characters is the only way I see Roy having such universally good stats. Seriously, how does he have no bad stats??

    Also, what is V's second good stat? I thought int was literally her only good one.
    I'm not up to date on the thread but I'd guess dex to be able to land their ray spells as consistently as they do.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Rolling up characters is the only way I see Roy having such universally good stats. Seriously, how does he have no bad stats??

    Also, what is V's second good stat? I thought int was literally her only good one.
    She's taken some pretty good amounts of abuse for an elf wizard. Maybe a decent Con?
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Rolling up characters is the only way I see Roy having such universally good stats. Seriously, how does he have no bad stats??

    Also, what is V's second good stat? I thought int was literally her only good one.
    I had thought V had Wisdom comparable to Roy, but no, its only 10-11 (still the only one besides INT we know for sure isn't negative), however Con is 8-12 and Dex is <12, which, can be non negative at the very least, so every single one of V's stats except INT is less than Roy (but V's primary stat is much less than his primary stat). So V's Strength and Charisma are almost certainly abysmal, Con, Dex and Wis are okay at best but only not very good at worst, and INT is great in general but fairly average for a wizard of their level (If I remember the how optimized V is discussions right).
    EDIT: Also noticed something when looking at the Order's stats, Haley also has a very good distribution, I mean her primary stat isn't Roy-level and her minimums aren't too high, but her lowest minimum is a 9+ Con and that can easily be higher since all we know is "more than V".
    Last edited by Schroeswald; 2020-04-06 at 10:58 PM.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elanís Exception, ďWho wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?Ē. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peeleeís Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Look, by page 10 I fully expect to just be ignored if I'm not direct-quoting someone who's been going at this for seven pages, but the only person I saw who made a point similar to the one I wanted to make was littlebum2002 way back on page 3, and I wanted to expound on it a little, and maybe see if a real-world analogy can get succeed in getting the point across.

    I can kind of relate to V's predicament here. Like them, I too have devoted years of my life to the study of an arcane and esoteric science whose intricacies are enough to drive a mere mortal MAD! MAD, I TELL YOU! That's right - I'm a medical student. And I've recently entered the stage of my education where I have to pick which aspect of medicine I want to specialize in. And I have to tell you, there's one specialty that wide consensus among my classmates holds up as the platonic ideal of a specialty: Dermatology. It has everything you should want in a career - comparatively low stress levels, exceedingly good remuneration, great work/life balance. Mechanically, it's waaaay more Min/Maxed for human happiness than, say, general surgery or internal med. And yet, I have absolutely no interest in pursuing it. Would you like to know why?

    It's because I personally find dermatology excruciatingly, devastatingly, soul-crushingly dull.

    V is a wizard. They achieve their spells through intensive study over the course of years, if not decades in the case of elves. It's easy for us to talk about optimization sitting on a forum where all we need to care about is the end result without having to worry about the process that got us there, but the process is of paramount concern to those living through it. So if V finds the study of conjuration dull as dishwater, that's reason enough for them to ban the school, utility be hanged.

    There have been a lot of good explanations for why V might have chosen to ban what is objectively a pretty strong school of magic tendered in this thread. Any one of them may be correct, as far as the non-explicated in-universe motivations of a fictional character can be said to exist at all. But, OP, you seem to think this is such a huge oversight that an explicit in-universe explanation is required, and I just... don't understand why you think that. You certainly seem conversant in the OotS backlog - what has this comic ever done to instill in you an expectation that conventions of meta optimization are going to be observed?
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2020-04-07 at 12:08 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    But would the falling rocks contain starmetal, iron, or something that looks exactly like starmetal with exactly the same properties but is both worthless and valuable?
    We wouldn't know, because everybody who could examine the rocks... Would be dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Roy "Goat Herder" Greenhilt.
    You just made my day :D

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Hence why V can't telepork and Elan is better at horse riding than Roy "Goat Herder" Greenhilt.
    Wait, is V practicing social distancing and getting a little whooppee on the side? (Fun with typographical errors )
    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    I can kind of relate to V's predicament here. Like them, I too have devoted years of my life to the study of an arcane and esoteric science whose intricacies are enough to drive a mere mortal MAD! MAD, I TELL YOU! That's right - I'm a medical student.
    Right, you maxed INT, like V did.
    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    So if V finds the study of conjuration dull as dishwater, that's reason enough for them to ban the school, utility be hanged.
    Yeah, it's not who you roll up, it's who you become.
    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    But, OP, you seem to think this is such a huge oversight that an explicit in-universe explanation is required,
    ... and you provided an excellent in-Universe explanation that makes a great deal of sense for those who play Role Playing Games.
    Nice job.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-04-07 at 07:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    I assumed we were working off of the point-buy system.
    Didn't your parents ever teach you what happens when you assume things? Hint: it's not good


    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    V could be working with numerous flaws that decrease their stats to such a devastating low.
    Yes, that's entirely possible, but it's also possible (and much more likely) that they just rolled up stats.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    This. You're making assumptions on this world based on how you want it to work, not based on how it has been shown to work.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2020-04-07 at 08:17 AM.
    Avatar by Gurgleflep

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Wait, is V practicing social distancing and getting a little whooppee on the side? (Fun with typographical errors )
    That's not a error, it's a reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Didn't your parents ever teach you what happens when you assume things?
    Assuming is like breathing. You only really notice you've been doing it when you stop.
    Last edited by Kantaki; 2020-04-07 at 08:15 AM.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der tršumenden BŁcher")



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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    It's like I always say: When you presume, you make a pres out of you and me.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    It's like I always say: When you presume, you make a pres out of you and me.
    Itís assume, not presume.
    Last edited by MunchkinsOnly; 2020-04-07 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Itís assume, not presume.
    With assume the joke is old and tired though. This variant was new to me at least.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Itís assume, not presume.
    I seem to recall that Ruck at one time in his life did stand up comedy on stage.
    And beyond that, the joke was really obvious, given how littlebum2002 laid down the straight line here.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-04-07 at 11:53 AM.
    Avatar by linklele
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    It's like I always say: When you presume, you make a pres out of you and me.
    Why would I want to be the pres? Emperor is MUCH more fun.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    You certainly seem conversant in the OotS backlog - what has this comic ever done to instill in you an expectation that conventions of meta optimization are going to be observed?
    They showed a moderately good example of meta optimization with the Spiked Chain Half-Ogre Roy fought. He even mentioned having to be a Half-Ogre during the fight!

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    They showed a moderately good example of meta optimization with the Spiked Chain Half-Ogre Roy fought. He even mentioned having to be a Half-Ogre during the fight!
    The guy who "optimized" himself down a cliff?
    This guy?
    And you base your expectations on him why?
    Last edited by Kantaki; 2020-04-07 at 01:20 PM.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

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    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der tršumenden BŁcher")



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    Male2Female

    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    He wasn't even that optimized for a melee, that was a gimmick character at best. "Optimized" 3.5 melee characters are uberchargers who use a magic item to gain flight and charge straight down at people from the air, pushing them into the floor to trigger the extra damage from dungeoncrasher. There's a bit more to it than that but that's the gist at least.

  30. - Top - End - #300
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2016

    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    They showed a moderately good example of meta optimization with the Spiked Chain Half-Ogre Roy fought. He even mentioned having to be a Half-Ogre during the fight!
    That means, it only works because he is a Half-Ogre, not that he CHOSE to be a Half-Ogre.

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