How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

[MunchkinsOnly]

Wouldn’t it be more impressive to be the one in control of the one doing the blasting than to be the one doing the blasting? Also, if V thought it bad form to have to rely on other people for what they need, then they would put even less effort into the relationship with Inkyrius than they did, since relationships could be seen as a form of reliance. They probably wouldn’t get any Enchantment spells either, at least of the Compulsion subschool, since that involves influencing the actions of others to do what you want. And if V wanted to be the source of everything, they could have specialized in Transmutation to abuse the shapeshifting spells and Time Stop(insert obligatory 「The WORLD」joke here). And Outsiders don’t... poop.

[Peelee]

Wouldn’t it be more impressive to be the one in control of the one doing the blasting than to be the one doing the blasting?

To you, maybe. To V, who are we to say?

Also, if V thought it bad form to have to rely on other people for what they need, then they would put even less effort into the relationship with Inkyrius than they did, since relationships could be seen as a form of reliance.

V put no effort in to that relationship, from what I can tell. Hard to put in less effort than that.

They probably wouldn’t get any Enchantment spells either, at least of the Compulsion subschool, since that involves influencing the actions of others to do what you want.

Others who are already there.

And if V wanted to be the source of everything, they could have specialized in Transmutation to abuse the shapeshifting spells and Time Stop(insert obligatory 「The WORLD」joke here).

Possibly, but V didn't.

[Crixus33]

Wouldn’t it be more impressive to be the one in control of the one doing the blasting than to be the one doing the blasting?

I think Xykon sums up the opposing viewpoint best

"Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just ARE. If you can lose it by blowing two will saves, you never really had any power in the first place see what I'm saying?"

to slightly adapt that

"Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just ARE. If you can lose it by having your summoned cronies dismissed, you never really had any power in the first place see what I'm saying?"

We saw how relatively easy it is to dismiss summoned monsters with V doing it to the Titanium Elementals at the Battle of Azure City.

In summation "You know what does equal power? Power. Power equals Power."

Also, if V thought it bad form to have to rely on other people for what they need, then they would put even less effort into the relationship with Inkyrius than they did, since relationships could be seen as a form of reliance.

Wanting power is different than wanting a relationship, at least in my opinion.

If I had to argue this point I would say reliance on another for emotional needs is different than reliance on others for strength. Furthermore, gaining another's hand in marriage could be seen as a personal accomplishment as opposed to reliance another for emotional fulfillment.

They probably wouldn’t get any Enchantment spells either, at least of the Compulsion subschool, since that involves influencing the actions of others to do what you want. And if V wanted to be the source of everything, they could have specialized in Transmutation to abuse the shapeshifting spells and Time Stop(insert obligatory 「The WORLD」joke here). And Outsiders don’t... poop.

Bending a weaker or equal power foe to your will is an impressive display of your power. Bending someone stronger than you to your will to do something you couldn't while still impressive still leaves that nagging voice in the back of your head still saying "You couldn't do this on your own."

As for transmutation, I chalk it up to personal preference. Incinerating your enemies with fire and lightning sounds cooler to me than stopping time (though thats still fricking cool). Turning into a dragon with polymorph trumps casting fireball. But you get fireball much earlier I think (not familiar with 3.5 spell restrictions/levels) than the ability to polymorph for something that big. And those transmutation options, correct me if I'm wrong, still exist for V since they didn't bar transmutation.

No comment on the pooping situation.

[CriticalFailure]

Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the character who we see doing the most summoning has a pretty different and much more lowkey and pragmatic approach to power than Xykon and Vaarsuvius.

[137beth]

If only some super good looking dragon secretly already covered that scenario.

I read this post three times thinking you meant that the Ancient Black Dragon had covered that scenario before realizing what you actually meant

[Kish]

Do we have any reason to assume Aarindarius cares more about optimization than most people in the OotSverse, who generally don't? Other than the typical projecting of optimization standards on every spellcaster?

Yes, this.

"But the type of power? Doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It turns out, everything is oddly balanced."

If you're expecting OotS to uphold the optimization standards of GitP forumites...well, I stopped being surprised by this at least four books ago, but I'll never stop being bemused by it.

[Peelee]

Actually, forget everything I said, this is the best answer:

"But the type of power? Doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It turns out, everything is oddly balanced."

The Order, as a whole, is unoptimized by traditional standards. They still succeed and progress, not because or in spite of the specific mechanical choices they made, but how they work with their abilities and with themselves. That's the important part.

[Kelenius]

Also, if you're comparing V to real-life players - plenty of real-life players play "unoptimized" characters.

[Lavaeolus]

Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the character who we see doing the most summoning has a pretty different and much more lowkey and pragmatic approach to power than Xykon and Vaarsuvius.

This is largely my take on it, yeah.

Specialising in Evocation and barring Conjuration might be a kind of terrible idea from an optimisation standpoint, but it fits in with V as a character and possibly their idea of what 'ultimate arcane power' might be. V's intelligent, but unless their hand is forced -- which does happen, not infrequently -- their usual solution is probably just going to be some variation of, chuck a fireball at it. Or at least, that would be their solution, prior to some character development.

Take a step out-of-universe for a moment, and Vaarsuvius is named after a volcano. (Mount Vesuvius -- there's a reason one of the Linear Guild opposites was called Pompey.) Step back in, and Vaarsuvius had to mourn how they wielded the power of the soul splices 'like a cudgel'. Part of the Tarquin arc also had V needing to learn not to fly off the handle.

So: Vaarsuvius's judgement is a little faulty, more generally. Healing can be incredibly valuable, but does V properly value Cure Wounds? Does V properly value being able to call on Planar Allies for help? Probably not, if the ability to rain destruction on their own is available. 3/3.5e Cleric is incredibly powerful, but that doesn't stop Vaarsuvius from considering divine magic not real magic. It's only after some character development that they begin taking a more supportive role in combat if the rest of the Order can handle it.

Maybe Aarindarius shares V's flaws, or maybe V just failed to heed them, but whichever is the case it's not out of character for V, here, to have simply made the tactically poor choice.

[hamishspence]

Maybe Aarindarius shares V's flaws, or maybe V just failed to heed them, but whichever is the case it's not out of character for V, here, to have simply made the tactically poor choice.

Not to mention that, in 3.0, the rules were:

Evocation: To become an evoker, a wizard must select a prohibited school or schools from one of the following choices: (1) Conjuration; (2) any two of the following three schools: Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion; (3) Transmutation; or (4) any three schools.

By banning only Conjuration, V maximised the amount of spells available to them.

In 3.5, the rule became:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/so...Specialization

The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement.

Aarindarius is an evocation specialist and V was apprenticed to them as a small child. She probably didn't really get a choice in specialty because she was apprenticed to an evoker before she understood magic. And the edition change thing explains why conjuration was barred. Necromancy was likely taken as a barred school in part due to being considered icky but that's just speculation.

At a guess, I'd say that when converted from 3.0 to 3.5

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

V lost all the Necromancy spells from V's spellbook, in addition to Conjuration - V had to pick a second barred school on the fly, and that was the one V thought that they could justify barring.

[MultitudeMan]

At a guess, I'd say that when converted from 3.0 to 3.5

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

V lost all the Necromancy spells from V's spellbook, in addition to Conjuration - V had to pick a second barred school on the fly, and that was the one V thought that they could justify barring.

Nope, V didn't lose all of them from the spellbook, as Vampiric Touch remained available in it to offer in trade to Zz'dtri (see panel 5). This has always bugged me (having a spell in the spellbook despite the school being barred), but your explanation of the change in rules for barred schools from 3.0 to 3.5 makes perfect sense. It also makes sense of V's comment about a "barred school", singular (panel 2).

Therefore, given consideration of the previous ruleset, V's decision is shown to be much less unoptimized. Also, the Giant is shown to have an even more sophisticated understanding of the D&D rules than I already thought!

[Peelee]

Therefore, given consideration of the previous ruleset, V's decision is shown to be much less unoptimized. Also, the Giant is shown to have an even more sophisticated understanding of the D&D rules than I already thought!

Dude wrote, what, three sourcebooks for 3.5?

[Jasdoif]

Dude wrote, what, three sourcebooks for 3.5?

Co-wrote two of the more interesting sourcebooks (Dungeonscape and Eberron's Explorer's Handbook), I believe.

[hamishspence]

Nope, V didn't lose all of them from the spellbook, as Vampiric Touch remained available in it to offer in trade to Zz'dtri (see panel 5).

Good point.

Co-wrote two of the more interesting sourcebooks (Dungeonscape and Eberron's Explorer's Handbook), I believe.

Co-wrote Dungeonscape, but was sole author listed on cover of Explorer's Handbook. I recall reading that a few monsters in MM3 are also The Giant's contribution.

[Jasdoif]

Co-wrote Dungeonscape, but was sole author listed on cover of Explorer's Handbook.

Really? I see "Frank Brunner, Rich Burlew, David Noonan" on the cover...and listed as "Design" inside the book.

[hamishspence]

Really? I see "Frank Brunner, Rich Burlew, David Noonan" on the cover...and listed as "Design" inside the book.

You're right - I don't know why I thought he was the sole author - memory playing tricks again maybe.

Wikipedia does add Spell Compendium to the list of books he's contributed to - and Tome of Artifacts, a third-party book:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Burlew

[Morty]

Wouldn’t it be more impressive to be the one in control of the one doing the blasting than to be the one doing the blasting? Also, if V thought it bad form to have to rely on other people for what they need, then they would put even less effort into the relationship with Inkyrius than they did, since relationships could be seen as a form of reliance. They probably wouldn’t get any Enchantment spells either, at least of the Compulsion subschool, since that involves influencing the actions of others to do what you want. And if V wanted to be the source of everything, they could have specialized in Transmutation to abuse the shapeshifting spells and Time Stop(insert obligatory 「The WORLD」joke here). And Outsiders don’t... poop.

I continue to be unsure what you're arguing for, exactly. Could V have easily been a lot more powerful? Obviously, but as you admit yourself in the first post, this is the exact opposite of what the Giant wants. Suboptimal as they are, V is still the Order's most powerful member who has to be held back so as not to dominate the story too much. Do you want V's suboptimal choices to be called out for what they are? This is fairly unlikely at this point. Aarindarius seems to have exactly one spoken line in the comic, consisting of casting a "Bixby's Evicting Hand" to throw V out. And it would be a waste of time and space on the page to do it in any event.

[Peelee]

You're right - I don't know why I thought he was the sole author - memory playing tricks again maybe.

Wikipedia does add Spell Compendium to the list of books he's contributed to - and Tome of Artifacts, a third-party book:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Burlew

Did Spell Compendium have any original material? I thought it was just a collection of pre-existing material in various first-party sourcebooks, and wouldn't have any authors so much as editors. Which, if true, would mean that Burlew created some spells in the books he is listed as an author on.

[hamishspence]

Some content definitely came from Dragon Magazine and various WOTC online articles, as well as sourcebooks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spell_Compendium

[Hawk7915]

In the OOTSverse, I get the sense that many Wizards, including Vaarsuvius, consider magic an academic pursuit - I don't have citations but feel like in OtoPC and across the strips, V has referred to "arcane research" and "arcane studies", in the same way that a scientist or professor in our world might talk about "scientific research" and "scientific studies". Vaarsuvius set out to learn and to gain ultimate arcane power. We are first introduced to him in a contest of wits, and she is only later persuaded by Haley to consider adventure as a faster, easier way to gain the knowledge and power s/he seeks.

Your question is sort of like saying that for instance, a scientist who chooses to specialize in entomology is making a profound mistake when the real money/power/versatility is in, say, computer science or astrophysics or medicine. Yes, if the purpose of those studies was purely to be the most powerful/rich/successful person in the world, then studying bugs instead of computers in this economy would be "unoptimized". And yet, in the real world, we see people (presumably of above-average intelligence in so far as we can measure it) willfully choose to use that intelligence to study bugs, or rocks, or any number of "unoptimized" lines of study. In the same way, in Oots, if a wizard was purely focused on power/status/maximum monster-slaying - sure, they might make different choices. But we know from "On the Origin" that that WASN'T V's initial choice in life and that adventuring was something s/he arrived at much later.

Why didn't Aarindarius warn Vaarsuvius? For the same reason that a geologist doesn't do more than halfheartedly advise fellow geologists to consider going to med school instead - because they all find a lot of joy and intellectual stimulation in studying geology, and they have no real passion for medicine. We also don't know that Aarindarius (who is also an Evoker we believe) didn't at least try to say "hey, you may not want to neglect conjuration - it's a powerful branch of studies and even a rudimentary understanding helps". He may have, but ultimately at the time Teleport was a transmutation spell and, again, V didn't get into magic with the intention of becoming a world-saving dungeon crawler.

[dancrilis]

If only some super good looking dragon secretly already covered that scenario.

Did miss that alright.

[Peelee]

Did miss that alright.

Imean, to your credit, it was invisible.

[Jannoire]

Imean, to your credit, it was invisible.

Please, Peelee, kids are reading this forum...

[Kardwill]

Wouldn’t it be more impressive to be the one in control of the one doing the blasting than to be the one doing the blasting?

Which is more impressive : The athlete who wins the gold medal at the olympic games, or the olympic team manager? ^^

[dancrilis]

Imean, to your credit, it was invisible.

That is what true seeing, detect magic and the ability to note suspicious gaps in text are for.

[Kantaki]

Which is more impressive : The athlete who wins the gold medal at the olympic games, or the olympic team manager? ^^

The doc in charge of the doping obviously.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That is what true seeing, detect magic and the ability to note suspicious gaps in text are for.

These days, whenever there's an unusual amount of spacing between lines, my instinct is to highlight it. I'm only too paranoid like 99% of the time.

[RMS Oceanic]

In a way, the Evocation "Blaster Mage" was the party role the designers of Third Edition/3.5 had in mind. There's that anecdote of a proto-Batman Wizard during 3E Playtesting wiping the floor with whatever the DM threw at them, but the designers shrugged and said "eh, nobody will play it that way".

So by extension, if the designers of the world had that type of wizard in mind as the "standard" way, maybe it makes sense the rather simplistic raw force type of magic use would be popular. But much like all of Start of Darkness, just because the world was designed with that intent doesn't mean the "standard" way doesn't have flaws. Vaarsuvius had the idea that raw force is the best way to use magic, and then Xykon humiliated them, only for them to come much closer to dealing him a critical blow with thinking a little like Batman. They can't undo their choices which undermined their raw flexibility, but they've definitely learned how subtle displays can go a lot further than scry and die.

[MunchkinsOnly]

If it were solely about academic research of arcane magic, then V would have tried to invent some spells to make Evocation more useful (contagious electric curse, diminishing forces, and a cacophonous check reducer are the first things that came to mind). They have made their own enhanced scrying spell in the past before. Instead, they limited themself to what was already in the school. Surely Aarindarius would have encouraged V to create their own spells and to break new ground in Evocation.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Wouldn’t it be more impressive to be the one in control of the one doing the blasting than to be the one doing the blasting?

Vaarsuvius doesn't seem to think so. Maybe ze's coming around to that way of thinking, but ze seems to be a big fan of their power being as direct as possible.

Also, OotS-verse seems to be balanced differently than 3.5, probably in the way Rich believes 3.5 ought to have been balanced.