How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

[Kantaki]

Xykon, a lich, and Malack, a vampire both readily and constantly desired spells to heal them and bring their hit points back.

More importantly, what did having a coffin to flee to do for Malack again?
Right. Nothing.
Assuming he even had one. Durkula and his underlings certainly didn't.

It also ignores that even if the vampire makes it back to their coffin they're a sitting duck for a while.
Not that helpful when there are adventurers after them.

And sure, a phylactery is a nice back-up- if the guys who ganked you don't know about it and it is unassuming enough they don't loot it.

Besides, respawning takes time and/or has other costs attached, so keeping your health up is still in your best interest even if it is a option.

[Quebbster]

More importantly, what did having a coffin to flee to do for Malack again?
Right. Nothing.
Assuming he even had one. Durkula and his underlings certainly didn't.

The insta-vampires didn't have time to get coffins though - Malack mentioned they would get Durkula a coffin when they got back to Bleedingham. Considering how long Malack had been around, I would be very surprised if he hadn't gotten a coffin long ago. Maybe a spare or two too.

[MunchkinsOnly]

Xykon, a lich, and Malack, a vampire, both readily and constantly desired spells to heal them and bring their hit points back.

That’s more of a matter of convenience than of necessity.

It doesn't, though. You can use any metal you already have on hand. You can accomplish it without Conjuration.

If you bought the amount of iron that a wall of iron would give you, you would have to spend 2000 gp to get it. Wall of iron costs 50 gp and a 6th level spell slot per casting. Also, do not expect a wizard to carry a mass of heavy metal to their home when they could get that at home.

[Peelee]

That’s more of a matter of convenience than of necessity.

Most healthcare for the living is not a necessity, then. So the comparison holds.

If you bought the amount of iron that a wall of iron would give you, you would have to spend 2000 gp to get it. Wall of iron costs 50 gp and a 6th level spell slot per casting. Also, do not expect a wizard to carry a mass of heavy metal to their home when they could get that at home.

Why does the wizard need iron? It can be any metal, any cheaper metal. Again, the wall of iron is not a necessity for that "trick," PAO is.

Not to mention that V has no known interest in doing that, I should note.

[Morty]

No one has argued that Conjuration is better than Evocation and that banning it is a bad choice. What people have argued, and you've ignored, is that there's no reason for the comic to acknowledge that or care about it in any way.

[MunchkinsOnly]

Why does the wizard need iron? It can be any metal, any cheaper metal. Again, the wall of iron is not a necessity for that "trick," PAO is.

I looked at the trade values table and a pound of iron was the cheapest metal I found. If you can direct me to a metal that’s 4 pounds to a copper piece, I would agree that’s cheaper. Also, Wall of Iron could be cast at home, instead of needing to be carried to there.

Not to mention that V has no known interest in doing that, I should note.

V could sell intricate items made out of the stuff for a massive profit for buying spell components. And before you say anything, they are paying for the craftsmanship of the item, and not the material it’s made of.

[MunchkinsOnly]

What people have argued, and you've ignored, is that there's no reason for the comic to acknowledge that or care about it in any way.

If you are looking for a reason, then I’ll mention how they could create an interesting part of Vs current character out of it, showing how they might regret making that decision in hindsight for reasons other than teleportation.

[Peelee]

I looked at the trade values table and a pound of iron was the cheapest metal I found. If you can direct me to a metal that’s 4 pounds to a copper piece, I would agree that’s cheaper. Also, Wall of Iron could be cast at home, instead of needing to be carried to there.

Does said table have other metals that aren't as useful in a D&D game, such as tin, zinc, or nickel, all of which are likely to be cheaper than iron?

Also, Wall of Iron could be cast at home, instead of needing to be carried to there.

So the only reason Conjuration is needed there is convenience?

V could sell intricate items made out of the stuff for a massive profit for buying spell components. And before you say anything, they are paying for the craftsmanship of the item, and not the material it’s made of.

A.) V does not, to my knowledge, posses any craft skills, so they likely cannot make anything for a massive profit.
2.) Even if V did, why then would they need to perform a labyrinthine amount of magical gymnastics when the material is irrelevant to the final object?

[Kantaki]

V could sell intricate items made out of the stuff for a massive profit for buying spell components. And before you say anything, they are paying for the craftsmanship of the item, and not the material it’s made of.

If they're paying for the craftsmanship, why bother which the perfect, but "totally worthless, I swear" Starmetal copy?

If you are looking for a reason, then I’ll mention how they could create an interesting part of Vs current character out of it, showing how they might regret making that decision in hindsight for reasons other than teleportation.

And V should regret not being able to create fancy knick-knacks with a method that makes Nale look straightforward why exactly?

Last time I checked they didn't express any desire to sell magic-ed up junk.
Maybe they would complain about being unable to summon meatshields, but buffing up the regular once is probably more efficient anyway.

[MunchkinsOnly]

Does said table have other metals that aren't as useful in a D&D game, such as tin, zinc, or nickel, all of which are likely to be cheaper than iron?

I found a thread that listed theoretical prices for at least two of the metals (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Metal-Pricing), but none of them went under 1 sp/pound.

[QUOTE]So the only reason Conjuration is needed there is convenience?[QUOTE]

Considering the Str of most wizards, it may very well be a necessity.

A.) V does not, to my knowledge, posses any craft skills, so they likely cannot make anything for a massive profit.
2.) Even if V did, why then would they need to perform a labyrinthine amount of magical gymnastics when the material is irrelevant to the final object?

One strip mentioned that V has Craft(Alchemy), so they could probably use alchemical processes to create a different metal out of the not-a-famous-starmetal that would be valuable. And even if the price for craftsmanship remains constant, the material could be from a simple dedication to the craft.

[MunchkinsOnly]

If they're paying for the craftsmanship, why bother which the perfect, but "totally worthless, I swear" Starmetal copy?

Returning customers.

And V should regret not being able to create fancy knick-knacks with a method that makes Nale look straightforward why exactly?

That wouldn’t be the only thing they regret. They could also regret that they have limited their strategic options by not having spells such as Grease, Glitterdust, Web, etc. They might even regret not having Towering Thunderhead!

Last time I checked they didn't express any desire to sell magic-ed up junk.
Maybe they would complain about being unable to summon meatshields, but buffing up the regular once is probably more efficient anyway.

And if the regular should happen to be predisposed? Also, they could send in weak summons to be the target of traps that could kill the party.

[Kantaki]

And if the regular should happen to be predisposed? Also, they could send in weak summons to be the target of traps that could kill the party.

Or V could trust the others to do their jobs.
Like Haley finding and disarming traps.
Or Roy taking all the damage, Durkon keeping them alive, Elan making music, Belkar... I got nothing.
Maybe cooking.

[MunchkinsOnly]

Or V could trust the others to do their jobs.
Like Haley finding and disarming traps.
Or Roy taking all the damage, Durkon keeping them alive, Elan making music, Belkar... I got nothing.
Maybe cooking.

But V could get separated from the rest of the party at any time, as they are wont to do.

[Schroeswald]

But V could get separated from the rest of the party at any time, as they are wont to do.

V still does pretty well when they’re separated from the party as it is, and trying to make a build for if you are separated makes your build much worse for if you aren’t, if you make a build that is meant to replace the rest of the Order you don’t do very well when the rest of the Order is there, Haley would be better with traps than meat shields because she wastes no spell slots and ability to do damage, the party members with more ability to buff can buff more.

[RatElemental]

If it looks like a diamond and shines like a diamond, it could be a rhinestone or other fake gem with similar properties. The not-starmetal would be like that to starmetal.

Yes, but if it looks like a diamond, and shines like a diamond, and is as hard as diamond, and has the exact same refraction angle as diamond, and the same crystalline geometry as diamond, and the same density as diamond, and the same chemical properties as diamond, I think it's safe to say it's just diamond.

[Quebbster]

Returning customers.

I Think we are drifting into Larry & Eve territory here. In order to have returning customers, you need a first purchase. Why would they make the first purchase?
And wouldn't it be a lot simpler if these people threw their Money at the Order since they apparently don't have anything better to do with it?

[Kelenius]

I'm pretty sure if you didn't get this point in nine pages, I'm not going to change your mind either, but I'm still going to try.

V having chosen conjuration as a banned school doesn't need an explanation because it's a part of the premise. It's a comic about (among other things) an evoker wizard that banned conjuration. No amount of arguments in favor of how powerful conjuration is (which I agree with) or weird tricks you can come up with that rely on very liberal reading of RAW or cherry-picking where you use RAW and where you use real-life physics is going to change the fact that the comic is about (among other things) an evoker wizard that banned conjuration. It's unoptimal, but it's the state of things. Arguing about it is as productive as saying that Isildur should have thrown the ring into the Mount Doom or that Potters should have made Dumbledore the Secret Keeper. It's just how it is. Banning conjuration is possible, and V is one of the wizards who did it. The world of OOTS is not a world where everyone cares about perfect optimization.

[Morgaln]

I looked at the trade values table and a pound of iron was the cheapest metal I found. If you can direct me to a metal that’s 4 pounds to a copper piece, I would agree that’s cheaper. Also, Wall of Iron could be cast at home, instead of needing to be carried to there.



V could sell intricate items made out of the stuff for a massive profit for buying spell components. And before you say anything, they are paying for the craftsmanship of the item, and not the material it’s made of.

I bet you sodium is cheaper, and you even get free chloride with it. In other words, buy salt.

[Morty]

If you are looking for a reason, then I’ll mention how they could create an interesting part of Vs current character out of it, showing how they might regret making that decision in hindsight for reasons other than teleportation.

Vaarsuvius has more important things to be regretful over (like, you know, mass murder and driving their family away) than poor optimization choices. What purpose would it even have, other than satisfying people who worry about poor optimization choices in a webcomic?

[Jannoire]

Do you expect the next installment to be the final one? If so, I would quite like to hear how you think the story wraps up.
As long as it's not "the gods destroy the world"

Rocks fall, everybody dies?

[MunchkinsOnly]

Vaarsuvius has more important things to be regretful over (like, you know, mass murder and driving their family away) than poor optimization choices. What purpose would it even have, other than satisfying people who worry about poor optimization choices in a webcomic?

Part of Vs current character is that they have learned to focus less on flashy spells and more on practical spells that do a lot more. Conjuration is a school full of practical spells that do a lot. V could bemoan how they have made choices that made them less effective for the party and attribute it to the same hubris that led them to mass murder and driving their family away, with the resolution being that V could make practical spells for Evocation and become more effective with it.

[Quebbster]

Part of Vs current character is that they have learned to focus less on flashy spells and more on practical spells that do a lot more. Conjuration is a school full of practical spells that do a lot. V could bemoan how they have made choices that made them less effective for the party and attribute it to the same hubris that led them to mass murder and driving their family away, with the resolution being that V could make practical spells for Evocation and become more effective with it.

V already bemoaned the lack of Conjuration spells though. I don't see what revisiting the topic would add to the story, particularly not when it is approaching its climax. Part of Life is living with the choices you made, after all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Space in the real world is infinite. We just haven’t seen all of it.

If it is infinite, you never could see all of it, since there's always be a little bit more that you have not seen.

Aarindarius should have warned Vaarsuvius against banning Conjuration so that V could use Polymorph Any Object to make a starmetal-like substance, which would be worthless, to sell for a fortune.

Thats the argument being presented here?

If it is, then perhaps the suggestion is that the comic should have been named "Mail Order of the Metal Stick" ...

Similarly, a smartmetal-like material that retains all the useful properties of starmetal is valuable regardless of whatever the maker claims.

I seem to recall a well known fantasy trope regarding starmetal being equivalent to meteorite iron (which allegedly is what Excalibur, King Arthur's sword, is made from, depending upon which version of the legend one reads)

You can assign whatever price you want to it. Price is not value, and value is not something you can easily dictate.

Example: I have a picture of my two kids sitting next to each other, taken when they were in 8th and 5th grade, respectively. It is of immense value to me. I carry it with me always. I will not sell it for any price.

Somewhere in the recesses of my memory is the image of a list dreamed up back in the 80's (humorous in intent) that parodied four basic gamer styles. I think the OP may be engaging in a bit of parody implementation regarding one of those styles based on their handle.

[MunchkinsOnly]

V already bemoaned the lack of Conjuration spells though. I don't see what revisiting the topic would add to the story, particularly not when it is approaching its climax. Part of Life is living with the choices you made, after all.

That comic only mentioned teleportation, and it was before they got served a helping of humble pie.

[Morty]

Part of Vs current character is that they have learned to focus less on flashy spells and more on practical spells that do a lot more. Conjuration is a school full of practical spells that do a lot. V could bemoan how they have made choices that made them less effective for the party and attribute it to the same hubris that led them to mass murder and driving their family away, with the resolution being that V could make practical spells for Evocation and become more effective with it.

And the purpose of that would be...? This is exactly the same thing as V has already been doing, except getting bogged down in rules minutiae of an obsolete edition that most readers don't know or care about. Making V more effective is also of questionable purpose, since they're the Order's most powerful member despite their poor optimization choices. In no small part because everyone in the Order is pretty poorly optimized, with the exception of Durkon - since it's very hard to screw up a cleric. Almost like it's no coincidence.

[pearl jam]

If it is infinite, you never could see all of it, since there's always be a little bit more that you have not seen.

There could not be just a little bit more that you had not seen yet, otherwise it would be finite. There must always be infinitely more.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Actually, “such as” means “for example” or “of a kind that,” and does not say “but not limited to.”

If you want to argue for an unusual definition of "such as" that implies a completed list of examples, you'll need to do more than provide two synonyms that also imply an incomplete list of examples.

Also, while your at it, explain why anyone would bother to use any of those phrases before an exhaustive list when an exhaustive list doesn't require extra prefacing: "This spell cannot create copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine."

Also, “great intrinsic value” means “great natural value” instead of “great artificial value,” like what we assign it, and starmetal is abundant in space, so it might not have great intrinsic value.

There is no such thing as value outside of what we assign to things.

"Intrinsic value" is actually more of an abstraction than market value. A computer has an intrinsic value far beyond the few dollars of raw materials used to make it. There's no one right way to measure intrinsic value, but common ways all include what the item can be used for. I'd suspect in D&D there's is some god of wealth that determines these things.

A non-star metal substance that could be used for all the same things as star metal would likely be assigned the exact same "intrinsic value" as star metal, but maybe not the same market value.

[Rockphed]

"Nooo you can't just ban conjuration it's the most powerful school it has summons and teleport and"
"Haha fireball go phew"

Me like smaller word.

Wait, are evokers barbarian casters now?

[Jasdoif]

Wait, are evokers barbarian casters now?

Hmm...reworking the rage mage prestige class' features as an evoker ACF variant could be interesting.

[Xlsfd]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I believe it's been stated somewhere by the Giant that the Order was intentionally written as not being optimized. If I had to say who was the most optimized member right now, I'd say that honor goes to Elan for his Charisma-based Prestige Class, Dashing Swordsman.