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2020-03-27, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2020-03-27, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
From Origin of PCs, we see V research a new evocation spell - Distant Inferno - and mess up royally by transposing range, with area of effect.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
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2020-03-27, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
"If it lives it can be killed.
If it is dead it can be eaten."
Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
(Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")
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2020-03-27, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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2020-03-27, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
That's like saying that a mentor would tell you that going to school for Engineering means you'll make more money than going to school for Liberal Arts, and that therefore that's the only acceptable thing to go to school for.
People in the real world do what makes them happy, not what makes them optimized. Besides, for all you know, V's mentor DID tell them that their chosen schools were suboptimal, and V told them to go jump in a lake because those schools make them happy.Last edited by littlebum2002; 2020-03-27 at 03:25 PM.
Avatar by Gurgleflep
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2020-03-28, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
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2020-03-28, 03:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
The point is that this experience might have put V off when it comes to innovating in the Evocation field.
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2020-03-28, 07:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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2020-03-28, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
And wisely so; It is a prequel book invention used as a joke.
In OOTS itself the Giant largely restricts himself to spells that the readers know by name or can look up. Invented spells of his own either comes with elaborate explanation (e.g. Familicie or Durkon's Mass Death Gourd... err Ward) or are jokes.honourable
Besides, that spell is still direct damage and not really anything special.
Batman wizards rely on the cooperation of the GM in saying, "sure, you can do that". Blaster wizards rely on the GM not saying, "you can't blast that!"
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2020-03-30, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Giant needed V to not have access to teleportation magic. The party would just skip over so much adventuring that needed to be done.
That's right, the story required this character, a wizard obsessed with gaining arcane power, to choose arguably the most powerful school as a restricted one.
As V themself would tell you, it wouldn't be the last time they got shafted by the whims of Drama.
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2020-03-30, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-03-30, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
And what was preventing The Giant from giving an elaborate explanation for Distant Inferno? It probably would have taken less time to explain than Familicide. Also, there is no such thing as a GM in the comic. If there was, the tactic of that munchkin half-ogre would have flopped from the word “Go.”
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2020-03-30, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
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2020-03-30, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
At a guess, I'd say lack of interest. It's not important to the plot like Familicide is.
I agree, but I don't think V's banned school needs a dedicated reason any more than V needing to be an elf or Roy needing to be a human needs a dedicated reason. That aside, plausible reasons have been provided.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-30 at 12:51 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-03-30, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Poland
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
The fact that it was a gag spell for the sole purpose of getting V kicked out of the tournament?
And the reason is "because V made a choice that was then rendered poor by the edition change". Once again, I'm confused about what you're arguing for. V had to be unable to teleport because D&D teleportation is terrible and plot-wrecking. Thus, V banned conjuration because it's the simplest way to accomplish it. Did you expect the choice to be roundly condemned in the comic?My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2020-03-30, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Spoiler: On the Origin of PCsIt's established as a 4th-level "fireball-type" spell, intended for knocking down dungeon walls, with a 20-foot range and a 100-foot-per-caster-level radius.
Which part of that do you feel is lacking elaboration?
Kind of....Baseless-other-than-"because-plot" mid-story changes to things that have been established in the story are bad, yes...But you're talking about something that preceded the start of the story, however....And "because I want to tell a story about their long travels, without it being stupid due to no need to make long travels" is as valid a reason as "because I want to tell the story I want to tell".
Both of this seem to point in the same general direction: This sounds less about why the story is the way it is, and more about why the story isn't talking about what you want it to talk about. Which I guess is simply because you and The Giant have different ideas on what the Order of the Stick's story is; and The Giant just happens to be the one writing it.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-03-30, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Honestly, as much as the comic bases it's internal logic on an ultimately binary rules systems, there's very little in text to indicate that optimization is gonna do you much good. All of the extremely optimized characters are one-offs easily dispatched of, while the main players be their villains or heroes at most have builds that would be considered equal to most other people of their class and level. I mean, breaking the rules is actually extremely common in the comic, keep in mind that in-universe we've seen that both fudging and homebrewing are allowed(even if the fudging is accidental).
Furthermore, mechanics are far from the only force dictating the rules of this world, and I would argue it's not even necessarily the most powerful one. Storytelling is a literal active agent in determining in-universe events, I mean Tarkin build his empire solely on that considering most people that spend an extended period of time near him tend to hate his guts and also unless he's extremely overleveled(Which I doubt, since none of the legion appear to be epic level, and the order was already close to that when they fought) there isn't all that much in the way of explaning his fight against the order being that one sided.
I mean, we've seen that the power of love gives a arguably big circunstance bonus, it's clear that if the comic was a game(which it isn't) the DM is more worried at creating fun scenarios and progressing the story than abiding by the rules.
Also, what really is the most fun to read about honestly...Roy the Warblade/Fighter dip to get some feat/X some obscure prestige class or Roy the dude that despite his dad's expectations and just the general assumptions pertaining fighters, manages to be one of the most competent adventurers around? Would the series be any better if vampire Durkon just easily killed him during their confrontation, cause Clerics are a higher tier than fighter and he had a really strong template?Last edited by ebarde; 2020-03-30 at 07:35 PM.
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2020-03-30, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
In-universe...V prides themselves on being powerful. And by "powerful", they mean "being able to, personally, bring such a level of overwhelming force that no enemy can stand against it". They don't want to be a summoner, because a summoner doesn't fight personally, something V's ego and mild sadistic streak couldn't countenance. They, pre-character development, truly believe that evocation is a school prepared for anything, mainly because V didn't believe there WAS any problem that couldn't be resolved by force. If you can't solve the problem with force, that just means you aren't using enough of it. To paraphrase them, "As an explosion's size increase, the number of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero."
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2020-03-30, 11:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
That's V's evocation solution to teleportation. Use a big enough explosion to rocket yourself from A to B. Not as quick, but much more flashy.
Another rules is make a character that has, you know, character traits and isn't just a bundle of statistics and spell lists. V's trait is I want to personally be the strongest not be the strongest by conjuring strong stuff. But enough people have argued that point and you have rejected it so lets try another tact.
First, I must admit, I don't know enough about 3.5 to even know why conjuration is so much better than everything else. Is it utility? Versatility? Combat power? A combination? Something else? Still I believe I can argue an alternate theory regardless.
It is arguable that the Oots wizards simply don't know conjuration is the strongest school. We have the advantage of having access to all the info and tables in the source books for 3.5. Who says the wizards of Oots have access to these books? That leaves us with learning from examples. Are conjurers so much more powerful than other wizards to be noted? In a straight duel which school has the best odds of winning against the others? Is it so pronounced, say 80-20%, to be noticeable? Or is it smaller, like 60-40%, that it may end up being attributable to the individuals power and not school?
Now you may argue Oots world does have access to this knowledge in the form of source books. After all Redcloak produces them to make points semi-frequently. However, I believe he is the only character to do this and represents a gag as opposed to tangible in world knowledge. But fine lets argue the books do exist. What then?
We as players have far more resources at our disposal to learn the optimal builds. We can live multiple character "lives" trying out new styles to see what works in game and what doesn't. Oots characters get one shot. This, in my opinion, would lead a person to drift toward the strong options, but not necessarily the optimized options. Optimization from my understanding of D&D tends to involve minmaxing (which leaves exploitable weaknesses a person would probably avoid with their one and only life) and synergies between class features, racial features, spells (for casters), and feats. Finding these synergies often requires experimenting which again most people wouldn't risk with their only life. Don't forget we have access to the world wide web to gather information from others and learn from their experiences and experiments. Oots doesn't have that.
But maybe conjuration is so obviously overpowered any fool could see it and no experimentation is required. Right? Well then that leads to bad information. Again they don't have the web or modern communication networks to test and experiment. Think of how many bad ideas were accepted as fact throughout history (geocentric solar system, four bodily humors, blood letting, leeching, alchemy, spontaneous generation, etc.). Wizards, from my experience, are often seen as D&D's equivalent of scientists. Well look how often science has been wrong before being revised by better scientific theory. Maybe Oots is in a dark age where the prevailing theory is evocation trumps all.
Finally it comes down to opinion. I did a simple search and saw people suggesting conjuration, transmutation, divination, and abjuration as the best schools (so your whole everyone knows conjuration is best is kinda moot). Heck a few people said evocation was the best to specialize in (though not necessarily the strongest school). With that in mind and the other factors (one life, no mass information compiler better than libraries) can you still say its surprising that two people, in a whole world, think evocation is the best and conjuration is meh?Last edited by Crixus33; 2020-03-31 at 12:02 AM.
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2020-03-31, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
And what prevented The Giant from giving that explanation in the main story? Or even giving a flashback to the moment, for that matter? Also, I feel like there’s something up with that explanation because, even if you switch the numbers around, someone with a caster level of 5 would be in the radius. Unless the radius is also “per caster level,” of course.
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2020-03-31, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Why would he? It's a one-off joke in a paid book, which he explicitly does not want to be required to understand anything in the free online comic. It's also a spell that has never been seen since, for obvious reasons.
What story purpose would be served by explaining how a spell in an ancillary book works?
ETA: The caster being in the AOE is part of the joke.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-31 at 12:12 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-03-31, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Considering what Cliffport has been capable of doing, I would be surprised if a magical equivalent of the internet didn’t exist. But the fact is that it does exist, or else something like Macebook wouldn’t exist. And even if OoTS characters only get one life, they wouldn’t be stopped from creating theories of optimization from the sourcebooks. Also keep in mind that Roy actually knew about Psions before Redcloak did, as he references the act of taking a “few levels of Psion.” And Wizards have access to Divination magic, which cannot be given up for specialization per the rules, so they could use a spell to figure out how to optimize themselves. Not to mention that there could be a spell that could teleport a caster to the nearest library and back again(remember, Transmutation before 3.5). All in all, there is no reason that spellcasters wouldn’t quickly find ways to optimize.
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2020-03-31, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
What you consider optimization they may not. What you consider a good build they may not. You may as well ask why didn't Roy go Wizard or Cleric? He has the stats for those classes. We've been given reasons, but those reasons go against optimization. Is that a problem as well? Or is it just V's schools?
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-31 at 12:34 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-03-31, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
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2020-03-31, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-03-31, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
Is this going to be a new Miko thread?
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2020-03-31, 04:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
You all do realize that this simply boils down to The Giant not subscribing to the mindset exemplified by MunchkinsOnly’s choice of username, right?
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-03-31 at 04:02 AM.
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2020-03-31, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2020-03-31, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
OOTS also constantly goes for mechanical choices are that are very archetypical and iconic, like usually when someone like zombie lady what's her name has some obscure prestige or class, it's part of the joke or services some plot related motive. That's cause quite frankly for most people, especially those that haven't played a lot of 3.5, it's much easier to relate to the concepts of wizards, fighters or clerics than say "Oh, he's a warpriest with a dip in this and that". Yeah, I guess you have some joke potential with their choices being really complicated and non-intuitive, but it's definetly not even close to as much material you have for say a fighter which has been probably tied with wizard has the most recognizable and played class for a good while.
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2020-03-31, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?
A scholarly thirst for knowledge doesn't necessitate researching new things anyway. V could simply be deeply immersed in studying the classics.
Last edited by hroþila; 2020-03-31 at 08:26 AM.
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