How come Aarindarius didn’t warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

[Morty]

If it were solely about academic research of arcane magic, then V would have tried to invent some spells to make Evocation more useful (contagious electric curse, diminishing forces, and a cacophonous check reducer are the first things that came to mind). They have made their own enhanced scrying spell in the past before. Instead, they limited themself to what was already in the school. Surely Aarindarius would have encouraged V to create their own spells and to break new ground in Evocation.

How do you know he didn't?

[hamishspence]

From Origin of PCs, we see V research a new evocation spell - Distant Inferno - and mess up royally by transposing range, with area of effect.

[Kantaki]

From Origin of PCs, we see V research a new evocation spell - Distant Inferno - and mess up royally by transposing range, with area of effect.

Idealy the former should exeed the latter.
Unless you're immune to the damage type in question.
Then you can do whatever I guess.

[Jannoire]

Idealy the former should exeed the latter.
Unless you're immune to the damage type in question.
Then you can do whatever I guess.

It was intended. But because one certain elf was too talkative, there was some pressure. In the haste, vaarsuvius mixed up range and area of effect...

[littlebum2002]

Even taking into account the movement of spells from Transmutation to Conjuration, that doesn’t change the fact that Conjuration is still one of the most excellent schools a Wizard can have. And if Aarindarius was an Evoker(which is unlikely), then they would have found themselves to be somewhat lacking in performance compared to those who specialize in Conjuration. At the very least, they could have told V not to ban Conjuration, due to the versatility of the school! A mentor would want to prevent their students from making the mistakes they did, not repeat them.

That's like saying that a mentor would tell you that going to school for Engineering means you'll make more money than going to school for Liberal Arts, and that therefore that's the only acceptable thing to go to school for.

People in the real world do what makes them happy, not what makes them optimized. Besides, for all you know, V's mentor DID tell them that their chosen schools were suboptimal, and V told them to go jump in a lake because those schools make them happy.

[MunchkinsOnly]

From Origin of PCs, we see V research a new evocation spell - Distant Inferno - and mess up royally by transposing range, with area of effect.

And yet, V doesn’t seem to use the intended form of that spell anywhere else in the comic. Besides, that spell is still direct damage and not really anything special.

[hamishspence]

The point is that this experience might have put V off when it comes to innovating in the Evocation field.

[Quebbster]

It is a well known fact that Conjuration is an excellent school while Evocation is mediocre at best. In fact, it is quite likely that the spellcasting community in OoTS knows these facts as well, as they should. Which begs the question: Why didn’t Aarindarius, skilled teacher of Vaarsuvius and likely an epic level spellcaster, warn Vaarsuvius against specializing in Evocation and banning Conjuration?! These choices are some of the worst choices possible for a spellcaster and Aarindarius would have known that, so they had a responsibility to prevent Vaarsuvius from making a mistake that will stick with them forever! I understand why The Giant made it that way, but what is the justification In-Universe?

Haha, Evocation magic goes boom
Got the "money printer goes brrr" meme stuck in my head and this seemed to fit...

[Deliverance]

And yet, V doesn’t seem to use the intended form of that spell anywhere else in the comic.

And wisely so; It is a prequel book invention used as a joke.

In OOTS itself the Giant largely restricts himself to spells that the readers know by name or can look up. Invented spells of his own either comes with elaborate explanation (e.g. Familicie or Durkon's Mass Death Gourd... err Ward) or are jokes.honourable

Besides, that spell is still direct damage and not really anything special.

Except to the person being roasted.

Batman wizards rely on the cooperation of the GM in saying, "sure, you can do that". Blaster wizards rely on the GM not saying, "you can't blast that!"

[Dentarthur]

Giant needed V to not have access to teleportation magic. The party would just skip over so much adventuring that needed to be done.

That's right, the story required this character, a wizard obsessed with gaining arcane power, to choose arguably the most powerful school as a restricted one.

As V themself would tell you, it wouldn't be the last time they got shafted by the whims of Drama.

[Peelee]

Giant needed V to not have access to teleportation magic. The party would just skip over so much adventuring that needed to be done.

That's right, the story required this character, a wizard obsessed with gaining arcane power, to choose arguably the most powerful school as a restricted one.

OP acknowledged in the first post that she understood why the Giant did it this way, but was looking for an in-universe reason.

[MunchkinsOnly]

And wisely so; It is a prequel book invention used as a joke.

In OOTS itself the Giant largely restricts himself to spells that the readers know by name or can look up. Invented spells of his own either comes with elaborate explanation (e.g. Familicie or Durkon's Mass Death Gourd... err Ward) or are jokes.honourable


Except to the person being roasted.

Batman wizards rely on the cooperation of the GM in saying, "sure, you can do that". Blaster wizards rely on the GM not saying, "you can't blast that!"

And what was preventing The Giant from giving an elaborate explanation for Distant Inferno? It probably would have taken less time to explain than Familicide. Also, there is no such thing as a GM in the comic. If there was, the tactic of that munchkin half-ogre would have flopped from the word “Go.”

[MunchkinsOnly]

Giant needed V to not have access to teleportation magic. The party would just skip over so much adventuring that needed to be done.

That's right, the story required this character, a wizard obsessed with gaining arcane power, to choose arguably the most powerful school as a restricted one.

As V themself would tell you, it wouldn't be the last time they got shafted by the whims of Drama.

One of the rules of storytelling is that things being the way they are because, and only because, “the plot requires it” is a really bad concept. Everything happens for a reason, and stories need to reflect that.

[Peelee]

And what was preventing The Giant from giving an elaborate explanation for Distant Inferno? It probably would have taken less time to explain than Familicide.

At a guess, I'd say lack of interest. It's not important to the plot like Familicide is.

One of the rules of storytelling is that things being the way they are because, and only because, “the plot requires it” is a really bad concept. Everything happens for a reason, and stories need to reflect that.

I agree, but I don't think V's banned school needs a dedicated reason any more than V needing to be an elf or Roy needing to be a human needs a dedicated reason. That aside, plausible reasons have been provided.

[Morty]

And what was preventing The Giant from giving an elaborate explanation for Distant Inferno?

The fact that it was a gag spell for the sole purpose of getting V kicked out of the tournament?

One of the rules of storytelling is that things being the way they are because, and only because, “the plot requires it” is a really bad concept. Everything happens for a reason, and stories need to reflect that.

And the reason is "because V made a choice that was then rendered poor by the edition change". Once again, I'm confused about what you're arguing for. V had to be unable to teleport because D&D teleportation is terrible and plot-wrecking. Thus, V banned conjuration because it's the simplest way to accomplish it. Did you expect the choice to be roundly condemned in the comic?

[Jasdoif]

And what was preventing The Giant from giving an elaborate explanation for Distant Inferno?

Spoiler: On the Origin of PCs

Show

It's established as a 4th-level "fireball-type" spell, intended for knocking down dungeon walls, with a 20-foot range and a 100-foot-per-caster-level radius.

Which part of that do you feel is lacking elaboration?

One of the rules of storytelling is that things being the way they are because, and only because, “the plot requires it” is a really bad concept.

Kind of....Baseless-other-than-"because-plot" mid-story changes to things that have been established in the story are bad, yes...But you're talking about something that preceded the start of the story, however....And "because I want to tell a story about their long travels, without it being stupid due to no need to make long travels" is as valid a reason as "because I want to tell the story I want to tell".


Both of this seem to point in the same general direction: This sounds less about why the story is the way it is, and more about why the story isn't talking about what you want it to talk about. Which I guess is simply because you and The Giant have different ideas on what the Order of the Stick's story is; and The Giant just happens to be the one writing it.

[ebarde]

Honestly, as much as the comic bases it's internal logic on an ultimately binary rules systems, there's very little in text to indicate that optimization is gonna do you much good. All of the extremely optimized characters are one-offs easily dispatched of, while the main players be their villains or heroes at most have builds that would be considered equal to most other people of their class and level. I mean, breaking the rules is actually extremely common in the comic, keep in mind that in-universe we've seen that both fudging and homebrewing are allowed(even if the fudging is accidental).

Furthermore, mechanics are far from the only force dictating the rules of this world, and I would argue it's not even necessarily the most powerful one. Storytelling is a literal active agent in determining in-universe events, I mean Tarkin build his empire solely on that considering most people that spend an extended period of time near him tend to hate his guts and also unless he's extremely overleveled(Which I doubt, since none of the legion appear to be epic level, and the order was already close to that when they fought) there isn't all that much in the way of explaning his fight against the order being that one sided.

I mean, we've seen that the power of love gives a arguably big circunstance bonus, it's clear that if the comic was a game(which it isn't) the DM is more worried at creating fun scenarios and progressing the story than abiding by the rules.

Also, what really is the most fun to read about honestly...Roy the Warblade/Fighter dip to get some feat/X some obscure prestige class or Roy the dude that despite his dad's expectations and just the general assumptions pertaining fighters, manages to be one of the most competent adventurers around? Would the series be any better if vampire Durkon just easily killed him during their confrontation, cause Clerics are a higher tier than fighter and he had a really strong template?

[woweedd]

In-universe...V prides themselves on being powerful. And by "powerful", they mean "being able to, personally, bring such a level of overwhelming force that no enemy can stand against it". They don't want to be a summoner, because a summoner doesn't fight personally, something V's ego and mild sadistic streak couldn't countenance. They, pre-character development, truly believe that evocation is a school prepared for anything, mainly because V didn't believe there WAS any problem that couldn't be resolved by force. If you can't solve the problem with force, that just means you aren't using enough of it. To paraphrase them, "As an explosion's size increase, the number of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero."

[Crixus33]

To paraphrase them, "As an explosion's size increase, the number of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero."

That's V's evocation solution to teleportation. Use a big enough explosion to rocket yourself from A to B. Not as quick, but much more flashy.

One of the rules of storytelling is that things being the way they are because, and only because, “the plot requires it” is a really bad concept. Everything happens for a reason, and stories need to reflect that.

Another rules is make a character that has, you know, character traits and isn't just a bundle of statistics and spell lists. V's trait is I want to personally be the strongest not be the strongest by conjuring strong stuff. But enough people have argued that point and you have rejected it so lets try another tact.

First, I must admit, I don't know enough about 3.5 to even know why conjuration is so much better than everything else. Is it utility? Versatility? Combat power? A combination? Something else? Still I believe I can argue an alternate theory regardless.

It is arguable that the Oots wizards simply don't know conjuration is the strongest school. We have the advantage of having access to all the info and tables in the source books for 3.5. Who says the wizards of Oots have access to these books? That leaves us with learning from examples. Are conjurers so much more powerful than other wizards to be noted? In a straight duel which school has the best odds of winning against the others? Is it so pronounced, say 80-20%, to be noticeable? Or is it smaller, like 60-40%, that it may end up being attributable to the individuals power and not school?

Now you may argue Oots world does have access to this knowledge in the form of source books. After all Redcloak produces them to make points semi-frequently. However, I believe he is the only character to do this and represents a gag as opposed to tangible in world knowledge. But fine lets argue the books do exist. What then?

We as players have far more resources at our disposal to learn the optimal builds. We can live multiple character "lives" trying out new styles to see what works in game and what doesn't. Oots characters get one shot. This, in my opinion, would lead a person to drift toward the strong options, but not necessarily the optimized options. Optimization from my understanding of D&D tends to involve minmaxing (which leaves exploitable weaknesses a person would probably avoid with their one and only life) and synergies between class features, racial features, spells (for casters), and feats. Finding these synergies often requires experimenting which again most people wouldn't risk with their only life. Don't forget we have access to the world wide web to gather information from others and learn from their experiences and experiments. Oots doesn't have that.

But maybe conjuration is so obviously overpowered any fool could see it and no experimentation is required. Right? Well then that leads to bad information. Again they don't have the web or modern communication networks to test and experiment. Think of how many bad ideas were accepted as fact throughout history (geocentric solar system, four bodily humors, blood letting, leeching, alchemy, spontaneous generation, etc.). Wizards, from my experience, are often seen as D&D's equivalent of scientists. Well look how often science has been wrong before being revised by better scientific theory. Maybe Oots is in a dark age where the prevailing theory is evocation trumps all.

Finally it comes down to opinion. I did a simple search and saw people suggesting conjuration, transmutation, divination, and abjuration as the best schools (so your whole everyone knows conjuration is best is kinda moot). Heck a few people said evocation was the best to specialize in (though not necessarily the strongest school). With that in mind and the other factors (one life, no mass information compiler better than libraries) can you still say its surprising that two people, in a whole world, think evocation is the best and conjuration is meh?

[MunchkinsOnly]

Spoiler: On the Origin of PCs

Show

It's established as a 4th-level "fireball-type" spell, intended for knocking down dungeon walls, with a 20-foot range and a 100-foot-per-caster-level radius.

Which part of that do you feel is lacking elaboration?

And what prevented The Giant from giving that explanation in the main story? Or even giving a flashback to the moment, for that matter? Also, I feel like there’s something up with that explanation because, even if you switch the numbers around, someone with a caster level of 5 would be in the radius. Unless the radius is also “per caster level,” of course.

[Peelee]

And what prevented The Giant from giving that explanation in the main story?

Why would he? It's a one-off joke in a paid book, which he explicitly does not want to be required to understand anything in the free online comic. It's also a spell that has never been seen since, for obvious reasons.

What story purpose would be served by explaining how a spell in an ancillary book works?

ETA: The caster being in the AOE is part of the joke.

[MunchkinsOnly]

That's V's evocation solution to teleportation. Use a big enough explosion to rocket yourself from A to B. Not as quick, but much more flashy.



Another rules is make a character that has, you know, character traits and isn't just a bundle of statistics and spell lists. V's trait is I want to personally be the strongest not be the strongest by conjuring strong stuff. But enough people have argued that point and you have rejected it so lets try another tact.

First, I must admit, I don't know enough about 3.5 to even know why conjuration is so much better than everything else. Is it utility? Versatility? Combat power? A combination? Something else? Still I believe I can argue an alternate theory regardless.

It is arguable that the Oots wizards simply don't know conjuration is the strongest school. We have the advantage of having access to all the info and tables in the source books for 3.5. Who says the wizards of Oots have access to these books? That leaves us with learning from examples. Are conjurers so much more powerful than other wizards to be noted? In a straight duel which school has the best odds of winning against the others? Is it so pronounced, say 80-20%, to be noticeable? Or is it smaller, like 60-40%, that it may end up being attributable to the individuals power and not school?

Now you may argue Oots world does have access to this knowledge in the form of source books. After all Redcloak produces them to make points semi-frequently. However, I believe he is the only character to do this and represents a gag as opposed to tangible in world knowledge. But fine lets argue the books do exist. What then?

We as players have far more resources at our disposal to learn the optimal builds. We can live multiple character "lives" trying out new styles to see what works in game and what doesn't. Oots characters get one shot. This, in my opinion, would lead a person to drift toward the strong options, but not necessarily the optimized options. Optimization from my understanding of D&D tends to involve minmaxing (which leaves exploitable weaknesses a person would probably avoid with their one and only life) and synergies between class features, racial features, spells (for casters), and feats. Finding these synergies often requires experimenting which again most people wouldn't risk with their only life. Don't forget we have access to the world wide web to gather information from others and learn from their experiences and experiments. Oots doesn't have that.

But maybe conjuration is so obviously overpowered any fool could see it and no experimentation is required. Right? Well then that leads to bad information. Again they don't have the web or modern communication networks to test and experiment. Think of how many bad ideas were accepted as fact throughout history (geocentric solar system, four bodily humors, blood letting, leeching, alchemy, spontaneous generation, etc.). Wizards, from my experience, are often seen as D&D's equivalent of scientists. Well look how often science has been wrong before being revised by better scientific theory. Maybe Oots is in a dark age where the prevailing theory is evocation trumps all.

Finally it comes down to opinion. I did a simple search and saw people suggesting conjuration, transmutation, divination, and abjuration as the best schools (so your whole everyone knows conjuration is best is kinda moot). Heck a few people said evocation was the best to specialize in (though not necessarily the strongest school). With that in mind and the other factors (one life, no mass information compiler better than libraries) can you still say its surprising that two people, in a whole world, think evocation is the best and conjuration is meh?

Considering what Cliffport has been capable of doing, I would be surprised if a magical equivalent of the internet didn’t exist. But the fact is that it does exist, or else something like Macebook wouldn’t exist. And even if OoTS characters only get one life, they wouldn’t be stopped from creating theories of optimization from the sourcebooks. Also keep in mind that Roy actually knew about Psions before Redcloak did, as he references the act of taking a “few levels of Psion.” And Wizards have access to Divination magic, which cannot be given up for specialization per the rules, so they could use a spell to figure out how to optimize themselves. Not to mention that there could be a spell that could teleport a caster to the nearest library and back again(remember, Transmutation before 3.5). All in all, there is no reason that spellcasters wouldn’t quickly find ways to optimize.

[Peelee]

What you consider optimization they may not. What you consider a good build they may not. You may as well ask why didn't Roy go Wizard or Cleric? He has the stats for those classes. We've been given reasons, but those reasons go against optimization. Is that a problem as well? Or is it just V's schools?

[MunchkinsOnly]

Why would he? It's a one-off joke in a paid book, which he explicitly does not want to be required to understand anything in the free online comic. It's also a spell that has never been seen since, for obvious reasons.

What story purpose would be served by explaining how a spell in an ancillary book works?

ETA: The caster being in the AOE is part of the joke.

Vaarsuvius could simply say introduce an “updated version of an old mistake” and the reader won’t necessarily have to go to the books to get information.

[Peelee]

Vaarsuvius could simply say introduce an “updated version of an old mistake” and the reader won’t necessarily have to go to the books to get information.

And what storytelling purpose would that serve? Especially now that V is actively trying to find less violent ways to solve their problems as a result of character growth, and already has more powerful spells in the event they do need to resort to violence?

[Kelenius]

Is this going to be a new Miko thread?

[Fyraltari]

You all do realize that this simply boils down to The Giant not subscribing to the mindset exemplified by MunchkinsOnly’s choice of username, right?

[Morty]

Is this going to be a new Miko thread?

The OP is certainly proving adept at ignoring inconvenient arguments and explanations.

[ebarde]

OOTS also constantly goes for mechanical choices are that are very archetypical and iconic, like usually when someone like zombie lady what's her name has some obscure prestige or class, it's part of the joke or services some plot related motive. That's cause quite frankly for most people, especially those that haven't played a lot of 3.5, it's much easier to relate to the concepts of wizards, fighters or clerics than say "Oh, he's a warpriest with a dip in this and that". Yeah, I guess you have some joke potential with their choices being really complicated and non-intuitive, but it's definetly not even close to as much material you have for say a fighter which has been probably tied with wizard has the most recognizable and played class for a good while.

[hroþila]

A scholarly thirst for knowledge doesn't necessitate researching new things anyway. V could simply be deeply immersed in studying the classics.