Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 19 of 19 FirstFirst ... 910111213141516171819
Results 541 to 549 of 549
  1. - Top - End - #541
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    They can't. You're not "obscuring them from yourself". Even if you were, the moment they leave your space, they would be clearly visible again, so no hiding.
    Hm. What, then, constitutes obscurement by a creature larger than you? And why doesn't this qualify?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Im of two minds on that. On the one hand, the idea that you can be obscuring yourself against yourself doesn't sit right with me at all. On the other hand, the halfling rogue dashing around on the edge of your peripheral vision, too fast to be seen and reacted to even without any particular cover, is practically a quintessential image.
    When I discussed this with my sister yesterday (which is when I had the realization), she giggled about clinging to their back like the little kid an adult is pretending not to see. While I don't think you could cling to somebody's back without them knowing you're there, it's still a funny mental image.
    Last edited by Segev; 2020-04-13 at 10:21 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #542
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Not being seen is the basic requirement for being able to Hide at all. Why would any GM give bonus for fulfilling the basic requirement? Clearly, if I ready an action to attack an enemy when he attack my ally, I should also get some form of advantage or bonus, as he's not paying full attention to me at that very moment, shouldn't I?
    I was generalizing that facing can still be a thing, without a specific facing mechanic. But in the case of hiding, the "advantage" would be that (per DM judgment) the NPC looked away "enough" to allow you to hide, despite otherwise being out in the open. I guess there would be questions of how long the NPC was distracted and if you could do anything useful while hiding before it looked back at you, but that all depends on specifics.

    Regarding readying an action to attack a creature when it attacks your ally, the bonus you get is to be able to attack off-turn. Which could be very powerful in certain situations, but probably most of the time is a wash with your loss of acting on your turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Also, readied action is only valid in combat, and you can't move at the same time, so you're just standing there trying to be quiet. If you think you deserve to get any advantage for that....
    "Readying an action: The Mechanic" is only valid in combat. There's nothing that says you can't do the same basic thing at any time. You could even initiate a fight by attacking when, say, an NPC says a keyword or takes some ostensibly non-violent but distinct action. It's not really using the action economy but it's the same idea. I guess if you wanted to be a stickler about it, as soon as a player "readies an action" outside of combat, the proper thing to do would be to roll initiative and work out the order everyone acts as though they were in combat, and maybe use the surprise rules to work out when the readied action happens in relation to when the target acts, and all that. Initiative and turn-based play can be used for any sequence-critical set of actions, not just combat.

  3. - Top - End - #543
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hm. What, then, constitutes obscurement by a creature larger than you? And why doesn't this qualify?
    I would say it doesn’t work based solely on the whole ‘assumed to be aware of their surroundings during combat’ clause. If you can’t sneak out if a bush ‘behind’ them without being seen, why would you be able to hide ‘behind’ them for the same effect?
    "No mind to think.
    No will to break.
    No voice to cry suffering."

  4. - Top - End - #544
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hm. What, then, constitutes obscurement by a creature larger than you? And why doesn't this qualify?
    Creatures don't provide obscurement directly, but they do provide cover. There's no direct correlation, RAW, between cover and obscurement (and wording for obscurement refers to *area* providing it, not obstacles in LoS). Rules for cover are as such:

    "Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover. There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren’t added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover." (emphasis mine)

    If the creature is in your space, it can't be "on the opposite side of the cover"... how can you be on the opposite side of yourself?... and thus you don't provide cover from yourself.

    Moreover, you can move through creature's space, but not stop your movement there (barring exceptional circumstances, like mounted combat). The halfling would have to move out of the creature's space before using Hide action, negating the effect of any obscurement provided by the creature itself (assuming there was such thing in the first place), and as creatures are treated as having 360° vision in combat, the halfling would be seen clearly and thus unable to hide.

    Edit: Hiding doesn't make you invisible or unseen. It makes your exact position unknown, and you can hardly expect someone not know there's a halfling between their legs. If the halfling can't be seen, he doesn't need to hide to get advantage on attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    IRegarding readying an action to attack a creature when it attacks your ally, the bonus you get is to be able to attack off-turn. Which could be very powerful in certain situations, but probably most of the time is a wash with your loss of acting on your turn.
    Per the same logic, the bonus you get from the observer's distraction is the ability to hide at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    "Readying an action: The Mechanic" is only valid in combat. There's nothing that says you can't do the same basic thing at any time. You could even initiate a fight by attacking when, say, an NPC says a keyword or takes some ostensibly non-violent but distinct action. It's not really using the action economy but it's the same idea. I guess if you wanted to be a stickler about it, as soon as a player "readies an action" outside of combat, the proper thing to do would be to roll initiative and work out the order everyone acts as though they were in combat, and maybe use the surprise rules to work out when the readied action happens in relation to when the target acts, and all that. Initiative and turn-based play can be used for any sequence-critical set of actions, not just combat.
    Sure, outside combat (or turn-based resolution in general) you just do things, there's no such thing as "readied action outside combat". It's pedantry, but the distinction is important when we're discussing RAW.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2020-04-13 at 11:21 AM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  5. - Top - End - #545
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Luccan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    The Old West
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    So, to be clear, people are arguing it's not that the default game doesn't have facing, it's just that it has omni-directional facing? You can't sneak up behind someone not looking at you without cover because the game assumes they know you're there without it?
    Last edited by Luccan; 2020-04-13 at 11:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
    Avatar by linklele

    Spoiler: Build Contests
    Show

    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


  6. - Top - End - #546
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    So, to be clear, people are arguing it's not that the default game doesn't have facing, it's just that it has omni-directional facing? You can't sneak up behind someone not looking at you without cover because the game assumes they know you're there without it?
    In combat, specifically, this is called out as the explicit default state.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #547
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    So, to be clear, people are arguing it's not that the default game doesn't have facing, it's just that it has omni-directional facing? You can't sneak up behind someone not looking at you without cover because the game assumes they know you're there without it?
    That's one way of looking at it. The game assumes that you can attempt to sneak up on somebody, but you need to have some way of avoiding being seen. If you can arrange to come up behind them, that's a way to do it, but the game doesn't assume people stare in one direction. This is actually not a great assumption, most of the time, but it presumes a sort of hyper-awareness of surroundings and keeping your head moving to encompass as much field of view as possible, usually.

    "Facing" is entirely up to the DM, and not to be assumed without consulting him. If the DM agrees there's good reason people would be focused in a particular direction, a stealth roll to sneak up from the opposite direction might be permissible. In combat, that's generally a bad assumption, though.

  8. - Top - End - #548
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    So, to be clear, people are arguing it's not that the default game doesn't have facing, it's just that it has omni-directional facing? You can't sneak up behind someone not looking at you without cover because the game assumes they know you're there without it?
    There are little rules for stealth (outside combat, that is), because the developers figured there's so many possibilities they can't create rules that cover them all, so they used the "rulings, not rules" premise of this edition and let the GMs to resolve every individual situation according their own judgement. It's a bit different in combat, where for the sake of simplicity (such as it is), there are more firm rules.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  9. - Top - End - #549
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Commonly misunderstood rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    So, to be clear, people are arguing it's not that the default game doesn't have facing, it's just that it has omni-directional facing? You can't sneak up behind someone not looking at you without cover because the game assumes they know you're there without it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    In combat, specifically, this is called out as the explicit default state.
    Agreed.

    Out of combat, to paraphrase JackPhoenix, people just do things. Including potentially NPCs looking a certain way and not others.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •