OOTS #1196 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think the Oracle himself was trying to screw with Roy then. It’s not a “gotcha” like “in his throne room” and there isn’t really another way of interpreting it without stretching it far beyond credibility.

[The MunchKING]

OK, Here's a fun idea. What about a threefer?

So Belkar metaphorically dies. He changes alignment and sheds the old Belkar Persona. Then in the middle of a glorious rebirth of a new persona, Xykon SUPER Murders that guy, thus fulfilling the literal death requirements of the prophecy. THEN!! Then in a Divine Act by Banjo, Giggles, Whomever else they've roped into the pantheon by that point, and possibly the Dread Banthulu, they manage to deify him after his death (Like the Dark One before him) and make him the War God for their pantheon. Unfortunately for Belkar (But fortunately for us because it's funny) because of how belief works tied in with that pantheon, he can only manifest as a cute hand-puppet version of himself.

There you go, all the "he dies/Doesn't REALLY die" angles wrapped up into one. And because it happens right near the end of the book, he doesn't really get written out of the story (for those that like him), but he gets a humiliating eternal comeuppance (for those that want to see him punished). It works for everyone!

[danielxcutter]

Oooookaaaay?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Make it a three page strip and have Rich post it on the First of April. We might need to buy Rawhide a couple fire extinguishers for when the server explodes.

[factotum]

The Oracle's prophecies are straightforward to interpret *after* the event that they refer to. This is pretty much traditionally how prophecies work in fiction, because if you could figure them out ahead of time you'd take steps that might potentially change that outcome--e.g. in LOTR, where there was a prophecy that the Witch-King would not be killed by mortal man, so he was killed in the end by a woman and a hobbit working together. They're more of an "Oh, so *that* was what that meant?" for the reader than anything useful for the in-story characters, IMHO.

Having said that, we know that the Oracle must occasionally give advice which can be figured out, because he told Roy and Durkon where to find Xykon--after a little encouragement, of course.

[Peelee]

The Oracle's prophecies are straightforward to interpret *after* the event that they refer to. This is pretty much traditionally how prophecies work in fiction, because if you could figure them out ahead of time you'd take steps that might potentially change that outcome

I would say that traditionally prophecies may also be super straightforward despite taking steps to potentially change them. The most obvious example being Oedipus Tyrannus - either the prophevy knew Oedipus would be cast out as a result of the prophecy, or no matter what steps were taken Oedipus would have played kill/marry/well the third one kind of goes with the second in this case.

In any event, 100% straightforward prophecy.

[Jasdoif]

I've seen chili recipes with cinnamon in them. Even made them once or twice. I don't have a personal chili recipe yet, but you'd be surprised what cinnamon can add in the right combination.

I'd use allspice instead of cinnamon, myself.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd use allspice instead of cinnamon, myself.

I tried that. Cinnamon seems to work better. YMMV.

[Mic_128]

Near as I can recall, all of them that we've seen completed thus far have been true with the obvious meaning of the words.

• Roy: Xykon did arrive near Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate.

Huh. Now that you mention that, I just realised there was really only was a period of a few seconds that let this prediction be true.

[Peelee]

Huh. Now that you mention that, I just realised there was really only was a period of a few seconds that let this prediction be true.

Only a few seconds would ever let any "which will he be within a thousand feet of first" claim be true. Once it's done, it's done.

[Kantaki]

I think I see the issue now; you're just defining "straightforwardness" a lot more broadly than I am. To me, while The Oracle isn't given to lying, or strained interpretations of the truth, his answers seem to vary quite a bit in how straightforward they are. Giving a helpful, straightforward answer to some people, an answer so vague as to be of no use to anyone to others, and giving an answer that, while true, will obviously be taken the wrong way to still others doesn't strike me as being particularly consistent. I fully agree with you that there are no lies, half-truths, or any other kind of deceit there, though, so in that sense all of his answers are pretty straightforward and consistently honest.

The variation in his answers does strike me as significant enough that I wouldn't rule out tricksiness on principle when it comes to interpreting the prophecy about Belkar. That said, as has been noted by both me and plenty of other people, there isn't a convincing explanation for how to interpret the prophecy in any way besides "oh, he'll just straight-up die" unless you basically just assume The Oracle or his sources are liars. So the difference is more or less moot, I suppose.

Straightforward doesn't equal helpful though.
The Oracle is always the former- more or less, he does use metaphors and proverbs on occasion* -but not the latter.

*Although by oracle standards that is straightforward I would say.

[bunsen_h]

Straightforward doesn't equal helpful though.
The Oracle is always the former- more or less, he does use metaphors and proverbs on occasion* -but not the latter.

*Although by oracle standards that is straightforward I would say.

When the prophecy is with regard to an event that one is trying to prevent, and is of the "this is definitely going to happen" variety, it pretty much has to be that way. The prophecy has to be either obscure enough that one can't understand it until after the fact, or "circular" such that attempts to prevent the event actually bring it about, or the event is so overwhelming that no attempt to prevent it can succeed. Elan's "Will this story have a happy ending?" got a straightforward answer.

I find it interesting that the Oracle was trying very hard to give Roy a useful answer, despite his strong antipathy to Roy. My guess is that the Oracle had foreseen something of the coming events and wanted to try to prevent them. It would appear that there was some flexibility to the future, where Roy having better information could have created an outcome that the Oracle would have preferred.

[factotum]

Huh. Now that you mention that, I just realised there was really only was a period of a few seconds that let this prediction be true.

Depends...one could easily argue that "arriving near Girard's Gate" still applies if you arrive in the location where the Gate used to be even after it blew up, so if Xykon arrived a few seconds later the prophecy would be just as true.

[Jasdoif]

Depends...one could easily argue that "arriving near Girard's Gate" still applies if you arrive in the location where the Gate used to be even after it blew up, so if Xykon arrived a few seconds later the prophecy would be just as true.

Especially since both Roy and the Oracle talked about locations.

That said, I would be remiss not to mention....

Spoiler: Blood Runs in the Family commentary

Show

Team Evil showing up right as the Gate exploded was a gag that I had planned ever since the Oracle told Roy that Xykon was going there. Part of the fun of using prophecies is subverting expectations, and in this case the expectation was that if Xykon got near a Gate, he would be a major factor in the battle for control of it.

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure he can’t see everything in the future - he bemoans that he always gets caught in the middle of his bath or something.

[Emanick]

I’m pretty sure he can’t see everything in the future - he bemoans that he always gets caught in the middle of his bath or something.

I never saw that as an indication that there are things he can't see. It's not that he can't see everything, it's just that he doesn't specifically look into the future to see every last detail. I wouldn't, either - life would get boring.

He probably only checks for significant events in his own future, like life-threatening occasions or the arrival of important clients. Probably some other things he's curious about, too. Looking into the future every morning to predict every single thing that will happen in your day would be make life deathly dull.

[InvisibleBison]

I never saw that as an indication that there are things he can't see. It's not that he can't see everything, it's just that he doesn't specifically look into the future to see every last detail. I wouldn't, either - life would get boring.

He probably only checks for significant events in his own future, like life-threatening occasions or the arrival of important clients. Probably some other things he's curious about, too. Looking into the future every morning to predict every single thing that will happen in your day would be make life deathly dull.

On the other hand, given that the Oracle has broken the fourth wall on multiple occasions, it could be that he did look ahead and see when the Order was going to arrive, and decided to be taking a shower at that time to set up a joke.

[Peelee]

Given that he can't stop his own deaths, I fail to see why he couldn't stop from getting interrupted in the bath. Either he doesn't look and is surprised, or dies look and it doesn't matter because his bath gets interrupted anyway.

[bunsen_h]

Given that he can't stop his own deaths, I fail to see why he couldn't stop from getting interrupted in the bath.

It may be a condition of his work or abilities that he's not allowed to try to prevent them.

He may also get a kick out of delivering news so unpleasant that the recipient takes revenge that way.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I find it interesting that the Oracle was trying very hard to give Roy a useful answer, despite his strong antipathy to Roy. My guess is that the Oracle had foreseen something of the coming events and wanted to try to prevent them. It would appear that there was some flexibility to the future, where Roy having better information could have created an outcome that the Oracle would have preferred.

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

[Peelee]

It may be a condition of his work or abilities that he's not allowed to try to prevent them.

Or it's just a classic Eodipal prophecy; it's going to happen no matter what. Which is much simpler than additional rules and restrictions on his abilities.

He may also get a kick out of delivering news so unpleasant that the recipient takes revenge that way.

Didn't seem too thrilled with spinning his yarn to Belkar.

[danielxcutter]

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

If he has an iota of a clue what Xykon has done and is willing to do... don’t blame him, really.

[Kantaki]

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

It's more about what Xykon'd do if he doesn't like what he hears. Or even if he does.
Dude's a jerk.

Which most people it rarely escalates beyond the occasional window dangling, maybe there's a rez required once in a few month.
Nothing you can't walk off in the long run.

Xykon on the other hand...
Let's just say needing a resurrection'd be the least of your worries when he really gets going.
In the best case it's over quick and someone has to destroy your zombie before bringing you back.
Worst case he takes his time and soulbinds you.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Given that the Oracle made a point of being unavailable when Xykon came calling, it may be a simple case that he hates mammals less than that lich.

A mammalian lich.

Sure, he no longer has hair or mammaries, and his mammaries never worked, but once a no good teat-sucker, always a no good teat-sucker.

Speaking fantastically racist characters, did the elven special ops captain ever meet any goblin zombies? Did he accept that they were now "good" goblins?

[The MunchKING]

Dead, Not Undead.