What excites you about playing a cleric?

[Satori01]

Past 7th level spells, the cleric spell list get abit anemic, in my opinion.
Upcasting, is still great, so who needs anything beyond Divine Word.

A cleric of Knowledge makes a good psychic character.
Take a 1 level dip in Ranger to get Favored Enemy: Fiends and get Expertise and Advantage on fiendish knowledge checks....great for Descent into Avernus.
You can even dump stat Int.

Want to play Dirk Gently....Cleric O’Knowledge is a good platform.

Cleric of Trickery + Dragonmark of Shadow is a great synergy. Ask your DM if you can swap out the duplication of Disguise Self and Pass W/O Trace on the Dragonmark spell list.

Blessing of the Trickster, combined with Pass W/O Trace means the Plate Mail user with low Dex and no Prof in Stealth, has a chance to sneak.

Bypassing, ’filler’ battles, (in the 6-8 encounter adventuring day),through stealth, and being able to Nova on the big bad, is priceless.

Channel Divinity recharges on a short rest....so one has things one can do, even when low on spells.

Role Play wise....like any class, anything goes. My cleric of Trickery, fights like Zane from Borderlands 3, and I pretend to be a priest of other faiths to get free room and board ala the Acolyte background, (which I don’t have).

I have a relative who is a nun, who eventually rose to be Mother Superior for her order, and she is a character.

In her words she “kicked The Habit back in the 1970’s”. Taught me how to play pool as a kid, and once ‘hustled’a heavily armed warlord- thru playing pool, when doing missionary work..getting him to spare the village she was in, and not killing the other nuns. She even got him to convert, later. She also met the Pope.


Being a cleric, does not have to be played as stuffy, fussy, or overly pious.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Blessing of the Trickster, combined with Pass W/O Trace means the Plate Mail user with low Dex and no Prof in Stealth, has a chance to sneak.

Chance? No, no, no, my good fellow. With an 10 Dex (Int or Cha would most likely be the dump stat), no proficiency, and heavy armor... They have a +10 to stealth.

A non-rogue with proficiency in stealth and max dex won't hit +10 to stealth until level 13! With a +5 Dex Modifier, the proficiency bonus won't hit +5 till after most people will stop even playing the game! Now, a rogue will hit +10 much earlier, but they get to cheat.

A Rogue with max dex and expertise means that they would have +10 at level 5 (+5 Dex @ level 4) giving you a +11.

+10 is amazing at low to mid levels!

But something I forgot to call out before is that you also can play as an atheist cleric and your deity will laugh their butt off as you get people to stop believing in other gods! Do you know how much weight it holds when a Cleric can cast divine spells and "wizard only" spells and they're telling you that deities are just really powerful mortals pretending to be gods? Plus, no god is going to directly mess with you as you have your deity's backing! You may get some rival clerics mad, but that's just XP and they need to actually find you.

[thorr-kan]

I totally do. Someday the Ecumenical Council will meet and decide to whoop that bad guy behind. Amen!

Campaign Journal, or it's not real!

Seriously, I would love to read that journal. Someday, indeed.

[Segev]

Yeah, pass without trace is an amazing spell. That +10 to stealth for the whole party is nuts. I need to give some goblins a shaman with that spell. Even better if there's a second caster who can put up an illusory fog at goblin-head-height for them to hide in. Though they could just use terrain to their advantage. The bonus-action hide with a net +16 to the roll would make them incredibly frustrating to track down.

One thing I could use some clarification on: If you cast a spell while hidden, is your location revealed even if the spell doesn't create a projectile? Let's start with minor illusion: would creating an illusion of a treasure chest 20 feet away from your hiding space reveal you? What about casting sacred flame or chill touch (neither of which create projectiles, but instead generate effects right in the target square)?

What if you're hiding inside a minor illusion when you sacred flame someone?


I definitely appreciate the description of some of the stuff you can do with a Trickery cleric. Slowly developing a few character ideas that actually could build around these things.

[Zetakya]

One thing I could use some clarification on: If you cast a spell while hidden, is your location revealed even if the spell doesn't create a projectile? Let's start with minor illusion: would creating an illusion of a treasure chest 20 feet away from your hiding space reveal you? What about casting sacred flame or chill touch (neither of which create projectiles, but instead generate effects right in the target square)?

What if you're hiding inside a minor illusion when you sacred flame someone?


I definitely appreciate the description of some of the stuff you can do with a Trickery cleric. Slowly developing a few character ideas that actually could build around these things.

Minor Illusion has no verbal component, so - providing you are hidden such that the somatic component is not visible - you won't be given away.
Sacred Flame and Chill Touch both require verbal components, so may give you away. Although it would depend on if there were background noise or other distractions (such as someone else fighting) in my games.

[Segev]

Minor Illusion has no verbal component, so - providing you are hidden such that the somatic component is not visible - you won't be given away.
Sacred Flame and Chill Touch both require verbal components, so may give you away. Although it would depend on if there were background noise or other distractions (such as someone else fighting) in my games.

I agree on your rulings, in general; what I'm curious about is what the rules are regarding revealing a character's presence - or making their hiding end - based on attacking. It's common wisdom that, for example, a rogue who was hiding who makes an attack has revealed his location, and now must hide again. I am AFB and can't find the rule online right now, but what is it, precisely?

And does using chill touch or sacred flame also reveal you because of the "attack," or is it just a matter of offering Perception rolls to hear the verbal component, and not an auto-reveal?

I'm being a stickler for the RAW, here, so I know what is and is not a ruling vs. rules event, not because I am trying to cheese anything at this time. Or, rather, I'm trying to determine exactly how safely obedient to the RAW the cheesy tactic of hiding, providing cover-noise, and then sacred flaming people who can't find you is. Or chill touching them. (Note that chill touch is an attack roll, but creates the hand in the target's space, so there's no projectile coming out of your hiding spot.)

[Zetakya]

I agree on your rulings, in general; what I'm curious about is what the rules are regarding revealing a character's presence - or making their hiding end - based on attacking. It's common wisdom that, for example, a rogue who was hiding who makes an attack has revealed his location, and now must hide again. I am AFB and can't find the rule online right now, but what is it, precisely?

I am likewise AFB, but I think it only specifies about weapon attacks.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I am likewise AFB, but I think it only specifies about weapon attacks.

This is another thing with 5e that seems they skipped over.

I think at one point casting a spell was considered attacking a creature, with the basic english definition of attacking a creature (an aggressive and violent action against a person or place), but then they split it into gaming terms... Ugh.

Unseen Attackers and Targets

Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the GM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly. When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.


Verbal (V)

Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t cast a spell with a verbal component

I would say that the Unseen Attackers and Target section is the general rule and the Verbal (V) components is the specific rule.

If you're making sounds, the creatures will know where you are at because you are no longer hidden (both unseen and unheard).

Being hidden isn't just unseen in 5e. You have to be both to be hidden. You will still be unseen and even have advantage on any attack you make.

Being invisible doesn't automatically hide you. But you do have advantage on attacks while invisible.


Conclusion

The rules are 'ed due to them not really putting everything together in one place. But casting a spell gives away your location based on sound and you are no longer hidden, but if the target can't see you then you have advantage on attacks. The enemy would still need search you out if they can't see you (say you're behind full cover) but they won't really need to specifically take an action to do so (inquisitive rogues are ing amazing btw), they can just walk around the corner to target you.

[Zetakya]

This is another thing with 5e that seems they skipped over.

I think at one point casting a spell was considered attacking a creature, with the basic english definition of attacking a creature (an aggressive and violent action against a person or place), but then they split it into gaming terms... Ugh.





I would say that the Unseen Attackers and Target section is the general rule and the Verbal (V) components is the specific rule.

If you're making sounds, the creatures will know where you are at because you are no longer hidden (both unseen and unheard).

Being hidden isn't just unseen in 5e. You have to be both to be hidden. You will still be unseen and even have advantage on any attack you make.

Being invisible doesn't automatically hide you. But you do have advantage on attacks while invisible.


Conclusion

The rules are 'ed due to them not really putting everything together in one place. But casting a spell gives away your location based on sound and you are no longer hidden, but if the target can't see you then you have advantage on attacks. The enemy would still need search you out if they can't see you (say you're behind full cover) but they won't really need to specifically take an action to do so (inquisitive rogues are ing amazing btw), they can just walk around the corner to target you.

Hmmm. So what would happen if an attack spell (no material component, for the sake of simplicity) was cast by a Subtle Metamagic Sorcerer? Does it make a difference if the spell in question is Chill Touch, which explicitly forms the ghostly hand to make the attack in the targets space, instead of Fire Bolt, which causes a projectile to fire at the target? Does it change if the spell is Save based (like Radiant Flame is) rather than Spell Attack based?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hmmm. So what would happen if an attack spell (no material component, for the sake of simplicity) was cast by a Subtle Metamagic Sorcerer? Does it make a difference if the spell in question is Chill Touch, which explicitly forms the ghostly hand to make the attack in the targets space, instead of Fire Bolt, which causes a projectile to fire at the target? Does it change if the spell is Save based (like Radiant Flame is) rather than Spell Attack based?

This gets into the "ask a DM" part of the game which ugh.

Personally, I see subtle spell as the specific rule and would say that your magic attack doesn't give you away instantly. It's like if you took the skulker feat and attacked with a ranged weapon. Creatures that are unaware won't automatically be able to know where you are at.

I think enemies would see the effect of the spell but not really know where it came from, they would need to take an action to actively search against your hidden character.

Now, if someone is already searching (say a guard) they may have advantage on finding your sorcerer as they may see where a spell came from, but they still wouldn't automatically know where your character is.

When it comes to save based spells, Sacred Flame is very, very, different than most. Sacred Flame doesn't require "line of effect" you just need to be able to see the target. Sacred Flame has V and S components so it would need subtle spell to keep you from being instantly noticed, but nothing comes from your position so as long as subtle spell was on creatures wouldn't be able to instantly know where you were. However, spells like fireball, specifically state that the bead flies toward your targeted point, so with subtle spell creatures would be able to know where to start looking for you and might even have advantage if they were already searching (because you gave yourself away).

It all depends on the situation and how things are going down.

[Zetakya]

Yeah this is why I bought up Chill Touch, which explicitly doesn't have a line of fire - the hand materialises in the targets space. I'd personally rule that Radiant Flame and Chill Touch did not give away position if cast subtly, but Fire Bolt and Fireball certainly would.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah this is why I bought up Chill Touch, which explicitly doesn't have a line of fire - the hand materialises in the targets space. I'd personally rule that Radiant Flame and Chill Touch did not give away position if cast subtly, but Fire Bolt and Fireball certainly would.

Chill Touch is iffy, depends on how a DM interprets the magic forming the hand.

I've seen some DMs say that magic energy floats to the target and then a hand forms since you still need line of effect for Chill Touch to hit the target.

Personally, I wouldn't argue with a DM saying that but I would say the hand just pops into existence with no visible cue. The enemies would still need to take an action to locate you if you're hidden but I wouldn't give anyone advantage due to visual cues.