Your personal experience with: the wizard schools

[Eldariel]

Diviners get a neat little gimmick at level 2 but you don't always get good rolls for portent (which nobody ever talks about). The rest is nice but not game breaking.

There are no bad rolls for portent. Midrange rolls are autosuccesses on 50/50 tasks, autofails on nonproficient saves, autosuccesses on proficient saves, automisses on attacks against tanks, etc.

High rolls are autosuccesses on non-proficient saves, high difficulty tasks, great initiatives, etc.

Low rolls are autofails on enemy saves, attacks, skills.


All of them are very good when used accordingly. Also, Diviners never fail at scribing spells; just wait 'til you roll high enough and use Portent on the check.

[Ogre Mage]

I have played abjuration, divination and evocation wizards and had good experiences with all of them.

[Mr Adventurer]

There's a check to scribe a spell?

[Eldariel]

There's a check to scribe a spell?

Yeah, if you're copying from a Scroll:
"A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed." (p. 200 DMG)

One of those things they didn't think to mention in the class intro, which just says you scribe it with 2 hours and 50 gp /level.

[MaxWilson]

Did you mean resilient sphere? A globe of invulnerability protects against magic, but doesn't trap anything.

(Actually, I'm pretty sure the fact that globe of invulnerability is immobile is new to 5e, too; I think it used to move with you.)

It's explicitly immobile in AD&D 2nd edition.

On top of letting your arcanomaniac laugh in the face of danger once in a while, the lv 10 and 14 abilities turn him into an anti-mage mage. Perfect for a proud scholar who had studied spells and their components for so long they can recognize and snuff enemy spells at a glance. Or shrug blasts off so you look increasingly unimpressed.

Just scratch some icicles off your glasses while your teammates are still thawing and frown at your opponent. "Well, actually, it's more potent if you create a funnel shape with your hands and speak the verbal portion through that. Allow me to demonstrate."

I feel like the Abjuror's advantage here is overstated. The thing is, *any* wizard can do what you're describing here. Against dangerous low-level spells like Hold Person, Counterspell is automatic--but it still costs a 3rd level spell slot and your reaction. Against high-level spells, 75% of the time the Abjuror bonus is irrelevant. 25% of time it's enough to turn success into failure. But a high-level caster is just going to Counterspell your Counterspell anyway, so what is the Abjuror bonus for? It's useless against liches and it's useless against swarms of fanatic cultists , so it's useful against... mid-CR monsters, like stopping a Glabrezu's Power Word: Stun slightly more often?

Lore Bards are better than Abjurors at Counterspelling, but it's still always a gamble.

Therefore, Portent is more impactful. If you really need to stop that high-level spell (Feeblemind), it helps to know in advance if your class feature can let you negate it with a saving throw or low-level Counterspell, or if you're going to need to upcast Counterspell to level 8. But an Abjuror would be forced to either spend an 8th level spell slot or take the huge risk of hoping to get a good Counterspell roll.

I've never played a game where I thought, "boy, an Abjuror would have been just the thing to have in this situation!"

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, if you're copying from a Scroll:
"A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed." (p. 200 DMG)

One of those things they didn't think to mention in the class intro, which just says you scribe it with 2 hours and 50 gp /level.

Ah, I've only done scribing from other spellbooks so far. Thanks

[Eldariel]

II feel like the Abjuror's advantage here is overstated. The thing is, *any* wizard can do what you're describing here. Against dangerous low-level spells like Hold Person, Counterspell is automatic--but it still costs a 3rd level spell slot and your reaction. Against high-level spells, 75% of the time the Abjuror bonus is irrelevant. 25% of time it's enough to turn success into failure. But a high-level caster is just going to Counterspell your Counterspell anyway, so what is the Abjuror bonus for? It's useless against liches and it's useless against swarms of fanatic cultists , so it's useful against... mid-CR monsters, like stopping a Glabrezu's Power Word: Stun slightly more often?

Counterspell against higher level enemies does give you some wiggle room: there's no way for enemy to know what level you're casting the spell on so cast it at level 4 and suddenly a Lich trying to level 3 Counterspell you back will have to roll vs. DC 14, which is certainly failable. If they try to predict that and you used a level 3 Counterspell instead, they will waste an extra spell level for no gain.

[MaxWilson]

Counterspell against higher level enemies does give you some wiggle room: there's no way for enemy to know what level you're casting the spell on so cast it at level 4 and suddenly a Lich trying to level 3 Counterspell you back will have to roll vs. DC 14, which is certainly failable. If they try to predict that and you used a level 3 Counterspell instead, they will waste an extra spell level for no gain.

Liches regain spell slots as a lair action though, up to 8th level, so they can afford to upcast Counterspell more easily than you can. (Yes, I know, they may be in the offensive and not in their lair at all, but then you have a much bigger problem because the DM is playing them proactively--and even then they can always Teleport home for a quick recharge.) They're more likely do to this to you than the reverse.

If you trick a lich into wasting a 4th level spell slot to Counterspell your 3rd level Counterspell against the lich's attempt to Feeblemind the party healer... The lich "wasted" a bit of efficiency, and the party lost their cleric. Not a good trade. Portent would have been more useful.

[Democratus]

Ugh. Counterspell really is a terrible thing.

It reduces wizard battles to a bunch of nothing at all happening - when they used to be spectacular.

Some wizard schools make the wizard better with spells in that school (Evoker). Other schools make the wizard better with spells in other schools (Diviner). I think the former is better design than the latter.

[Segev]

Diviners get a neat little gimmick at level 2 but you don't always get good rolls for portent (which nobody ever talks about). The rest is nice but not game breaking. Seeing invisibility I find especially neat and recycling spell slots from Divination Spells is great.

There are no bad rolls for portent. Midrange rolls are autosuccesses on 50/50 tasks, autofails on nonproficient saves, autosuccesses on proficient saves, automisses on attacks against tanks, etc.
High rolls are autosuccesses on non-proficient saves, high difficulty tasks, great initiatives, etc.
Low rolls are autofails on enemy saves, attacks, skills.

All of them are very good when used accordingly. Also, Diviners never fail at scribing spells; just wait 'til you roll high enough and use Portent on the check.

Indeed, Portent is ALWAYS useful at some point in the day, unless you just don't make many rolls. Any combat will find points where they're useful. The Diviner in my party has forced creatures to fail save-or-suck spells with 11s and even 12s when he's had a reasonable suspicion they had a not-high relevant stat. And "take 10" isn't a thing unless you're a rogue in 5e, but it's still useful for your trained professionals in various skills, and a mid-range Portent can mimic it.

Enchanter's are very meh. Their level 2 feature is meh, their level 6 directly competes with the shield spell and their level 14 is based off charisma modifier. All in all I just want to play a subtle sorcerer whenever I play one.

I haven't really played one. The level 2 feature is...lock down one foe in return for your action, which is so-so but often to the party's advantage if used wisely (take down one of the big hitters while the others take out the rest, then finish the heavy hitter off). But I'm not sure how much like "an enchanter" it makes you feel. It never drew me in, that's for sure. So I definitely see your point.

Invokers are very fun. They do what they are designed to do and especially take off at level 7-9 when things like dawn and sickening radiance and their massive areas come into play.

I just started up with a Necromancer/Shepherd Druid. So I am looking forward to seeing how that plays out. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

*cough* I believe you mean, "Reduce, Reuse, Reanimate."

It's explicitly immobile in AD&D 2nd edition.

Huh. That makes it being a globe so much more interesting than I had previously believed.

Amongst other things, since it doesn't vanish if you leave it, you can leave it hanging around on the battlefield for others to huddle inside.

Ugh. Counterspell really is a terrible thing.

It reduces wizard battles to a bunch of nothing at all happening - when they used to be spectacular.

Some wizard schools make the wizard better with spells in that school (Evoker). Other schools make the wizard better with spells in other schools (Diviner). I think the former is better design than the latter.

Diviner is kind-of the "generalist" in the PHB, because it makes EVERYTHING you do as a wizard better.

And you forgot a category: some wizard schools don't do much at all of interest.

There's some room for improvement in a lot of the schools' design.

[Eldariel]

Ugh. Counterspell really is a terrible thing.

It reduces wizard battles to a bunch of nothing at all happening - when they used to be spectacular.

Not my experience, but it does consume at 3rd level slot and reaction from both every round to no practical end unless you use cover or a range of engagement over 60'.

As long as you have both hands free, one for spell materials and the other for Counterspell materials.


It IS convenient that the described flow of events leaves the lich helpless while you unload your 9th level spells on it and watch it cease.

[Segev]

It seems to me that the Abjuror's advantage with counterspell comes in when he casts it with a slightly higher level spell slot. If the enemy doesn't guess right for their own counterspell, they have to roll to take it down. Is that an opposed roll? Does the abjuror's proficiency add in where another wizard's wouldn't?

[MaxWilson]

I haven't really played one. The level 2 feature is...lock down one foe in return for your action, which is so-so but often to the party's advantage if used wisely (take down one of the big hitters while the others take out the rest, then finish the heavy hitter off). But I'm not sure how much like "an enchanter" it makes you feel. It never drew me in, that's for sure. So I definitely see your point.

It's even better than that: disable one enemy with no concentration or spell slot cost, then use your action to keep it disabled until it's prone, grappled, manacled, and all the other PCs have actions readied to hit it simultaneously.

There are times when Hypnotic Gaze is not appropriate because the party is outnumbered, but for an Enchanter with a good AC it's almost better than at-will Hold Monster. No auto crits and no follow-up spells, but also no concerns about save-every-round or losing concentration.

It seems to me that the Abjuror's advantage with counterspell comes in when he casts it with a slightly higher level spell slot. If the enemy doesn't guess right for their own counterspell, they have to roll to take it down. Is that an opposed roll? Does the abjuror's proficiency add in where another wizard's wouldn't?

No, the Abjuror is not the one rolling in that case, the enemy is. No benefit.

[dragoeniex]

I feel like the Abjuror's advantage here is overstated. The thing is, *any* wizard can do what you're describing here. Against dangerous low-level spells like Hold Person, Counterspell is automatic--but it still costs a 3rd level spell slot and your reaction. Against high-level spells, 75% of the time the Abjuror bonus is irrelevant. 25% of time it's enough to turn success into failure. But a high-level caster is just going to Counterspell your Counterspell anyway, so what is the Abjuror bonus for? It's useless against liches and it's useless against swarms of fanatic cultists , so it's useful against... mid-CR monsters, like stopping a Glabrezu's Power Word: Stun slightly more often?

Lore Bards are better than Abjurors at Counterspelling, but it's still always a gamble.

Therefore, Portent is more impactful. If you really need to stop that high-level spell (Feeblemind), it helps to know in advance if your class feature can let you negate it with a saving throw or low-level Counterspell, or if you're going to need to upcast Counterspell to level 8. But an Abjuror would be forced to either spend an 8th level spell slot or take the huge risk of hoping to get a good Counterspell roll.

I've never played a game where I thought, "boy, an Abjuror would have been just the thing to have in this situation!"

I think our difference in opinion comes down to differences in our experience and play groups. I've played two full casters over the last three years in weekly sessions, going from lv 1 - 17 and lv 5 - 20 respectively.

As someone who loves control spells and other methods of disabling enemy offense, Dispel Magic and Counterspell are insta-picks for me. I've also wished I had the abjurer's ability to add their full proficiency to dispel and counter checks in numerous fights. It would have made the difference often.

Parties often have more than one full caster, so it's not uncommon for my group to have a backup counterspeller. The one that didn't, my character nabbed a Staff of Swarming Insects and became impossible for most foes to counter-Counterspell.

The ability also means you should feel safer gambling a lv 3 slot to counter, while your enemy has more reason to cast their own at whatever level they think you're expending. It's a lower-cost way for you to badger them into burning spells.

Dispel Magic often comes up out of combat. And I don't know about you, but I want to hang onto all my high level slots possible when getting the party through a magically-trapped dungeon.

The ability isn't always perfect, but it's very solid and feels great to use.

And that's all before lv 14 with its advantage on all spell saving throws half spell damage. I'm a player that loves mage matches, so that's just lovely.

[Segev]

It's even better than that: disable one enemy with no concentration or spell slot cost, then use your action to keep it disabled until it's prone, grappled, manacled, and all the other PCs have actions readied to hit it simultaneously.

There are times when Hypnotic Gaze is not appropriate because the party is outnumbered, but for an Enchanter with a good AC it's almost better than at-will Hold Monster. No auto crits and no follow-up spells, but also no concerns about save-every-round or losing concentration.

Even better, then, if you managed to get a concentration buff (or debuff) up before doing it. Tasha's hideous laughter on one guy and Hypnotic Gaze on another is actually going to be pretty effective!

No, the Abjuror is not the one rolling in that case, the enemy is. No benefit.

Hm. Then the benefit is that he can afford a level 3 counterspell to counter an enemy's counterspell even if they cast at a higher level due to having the bonus to their roll, I guess.

[MaxWilson]

Dispel Magic often comes up out of combat. And I don't know about you, but I want to hang onto all my high level slots possible when getting the party through a magically-trapped dungeon.

The ability isn't always perfect, but it's very solid and feels great to use.

I'm an extreme cheapskate with spell slots which is why I find Counterspell so painful. :) If I'm facing multiple enemy spellcasters (e.g. 3 CR 4 Neogi Masters), do I *really* want to spend my reaction and a spell slot to get a 50-60% chance at Counterspelling one of their three Hold Person IV spells? An Abjuror would bring that up to 90% but still, even when it works it feels like a failure. I should have found a way to shut them down earlier via e.g. Darkness.

Part of this might be due to the initiative variant I use when I'm running the game (everybody declares then everybody acts, instead of turn-by-turn) or just general differences in playstyle. I'm glad it works well for you.

Even better, then, if you managed to get a concentration buff (or debuff) up before doing it. Tasha's hideous laughter on one guy and Hypnotic Gaze on another is actually going to be pretty effective!

Yeah, you can use it to catch "leakers" after you cast a big crowd control spell. Frankly I've been surprised how effective it is.

Another fun fact is that it doesn't break Invisibility or Sanctuary.

Artillerist 3/Enchanter 2 would be fun.

Hm. Then the benefit is that he can afford a level 3 counterspell to counter an enemy's counterspell even if they cast at a higher level due to having the bonus to their roll, I guess.

Yeah, I wish they got something better, like "you can add your proficiency bonus to the effective level of any Counterspell you cast" or "Counterspell doesn't cost your reaction".

[EdenIndustries]

It's even better than that: disable one enemy with no concentration or spell slot cost, then use your action to keep it disabled until it's prone, grappled, manacled, and all the other PCs have actions readied to hit it simultaneously.

There are times when Hypnotic Gaze is not appropriate because the party is outnumbered, but for an Enchanter with a good AC it's almost better than at-will Hold Monster. No auto crits and no follow-up spells, but also no concerns about save-every-round or losing concentration.

This fact made my Enchanter wizard the favourite wizard subclass I've played yet in 5e, which I wasn't expecting. It's a fantastic, resource-less ability that really changes up how you play a Wizard. I can't recommend Enchanters highly enough!

[Segev]

This fact made my Enchanter wizard the favourite wizard subclass I've played yet in 5e, which I wasn't expecting. It's a fantastic, resource-less ability that really changes up how you play a Wizard. I can't recommend Enchanters highly enough!

Does it feel a little weird to be running up into enemies' faces to do this? It seems to me like it would. But I haven't played one, so....

[EdenIndustries]

Does it feel a little weird to be running up into enemies' faces to do this? It seems to me like it would. But I haven't played one, so....

It kind of does, but it's fun to have a reason to do it instead of just hanging back all the time. It's sort of the same feeling as a gish being able to mix it up in melee, but instead of whacking things you're taking them out of the fight by staring into their eyes. And it gets even better when you get the level 6 feature. Then you've got one enemy locked down and you divert other enemy attacks into hitting each other. Talk about control! And then it gets even better with the level 10 feature. Now you lock one enemy down, do a split Hold Person/Hold Monster to lock another 2 down, and you divert the attacks of whoever is left. It's amazing to just wade into battle and mess everyone up so completely!

Plus, you're still a Wizard so if it's not the right time to do all that...then don't! You have a ton of other tricks up your sleeve. That's what makes it so amazing.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I played an illusionist wizard from level 4-15.

This wizard works better the higher level you are and the more stealth/exploration/social tiered the game is. Though even then, in combat they are still a wizard.

I found that the ability to do both sound and image on minor illusion quite literally never came up. Whenever I needed that kind of thing it needed to be bigger or a creature. Silent image and Major image were much better for that kind of thing.

Malleable illusions is the most used feature I've ever had. Disguise self being a new disguise every single time you lose sight of your pursuer is awesome. Being able to move a silent image of fog around your group when trying to move through the night. Turning an alleyway into a blocked off location with a wall. Creating a group of guards around you as your travelling. This is all phenomenal. And then you have that special 7th level spell that changes a full mile of terrain. During a vampire fight, make a river around your battleground so that he can't flee. turn a field of troops into a lake during the night. Create a building around you this spell is broken as heck.

Illusory step is wonderful, When a dragon gets a nat20 on their bite attack on you being able to make that miss is the most powerful feeling in the world. Pair this with the lucky feat and your survival ability is much better.

Illusory reality: This requires a lot of forethought and working with your DM to not be a pain with. Some options, Cast tensers transformation>turn the illusory armor on your body into real armor. Turn an image of a wall into a real wall. illusory bridge turned real just in time for it to turn back once the enemies decide to use it. The real object turning back into an illusion is probably the most hidden use for this ability.

Hope that helps.

[col_impact]

I played an illusionist wizard from level 4-15.

This wizard works better the higher level you are and the more stealth/exploration/social tiered the game is. Though even then in combat they are still a wizard.

I found that the ability to do both sound and image on minor illusion quite literally never came up. Whenever I needed that kind of thing it needed to be bigger or a creature. Silent image and Major image were much better for that kind of thing.

Malleable illusions is the most used feature I've ever had. Disguise self being a new disguise every single time you lose sight of your pursuer is awesome. Being able to move a silent image of fog around your group when trying to move through the night. Turning an alleyway into a blocked off location with a wall. Creating a group of guards around you as your travelling. This is all phenomenal. And then you have that special 7th level spell that changes a full mile of terrain. During a vampire fight, make a river around your battleground so that he can't flee. turn a field of troops into a lake during the night. Create a building around you this spell is broken as heck.

Illusory step is wonderful, When a dragon gets a nat20 on their bite attack on you being able to make that miss is the most powerful feeling in the world. Pair this with the lucky feat and your survival ability is much better.

Illusory reality: This requires a lot of forethought and working with your DM to not be a pain with. Some options, Cast tensers transformation>turn the illusory armor on your body into real armor. Turn an image of a wall into a real wall. illusory bridge turned real just in time for it to turn back once the enemies decide to use it. The real object turning back into an illusion is probably the most hidden use for this ability.

Hope that helps.

I wonder if you would have gotten more out of the 2nd level ability if you were gnome sized. I heart the 2nd level ability.

[MaxWilson]

Does it feel a little weird to be running up into enemies' faces to do this? It seems to me like it would. But I haven't played one, so....

It doesn't feel weird if you're a heavily-armored Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter 2. I never had the nerve to try it as a pure Enchanter though, which meant that I never got to use my Hypnotic Pattern at all on that PC.

It kind of does, but it's fun to have a reason to do it instead of just hanging back all the time. It's sort of the same feeling as a gish being able to mix it up in melee, but instead of whacking things you're taking them out of the fight by staring into their eyes. And it gets even better when you get the level 6 feature. Then you've got one enemy locked down and you divert other enemy attacks into hitting each other. Talk about control! And then it gets even better with the level 10 feature. Now you lock one enemy down, do a split Hold Person/Hold Monster to lock another 2 down, and you divert the attacks of whoever is left. It's amazing to just wade into battle and mess everyone up so completely!

Plus, you're still a Wizard so if it's not the right time to do all that...then don't! You have a ton of other tricks up your sleeve. That's what makes it so amazing.

This bit in bold here is a little bit dangerous unless there are at least 3 monsters, because if they hit the guy you're hypnotizing, it breaks your Hypnotic Gaze. All you can do is hope that the DM decides the monster will hit the other monster back instead of attacking you.

Overall I'd say Enchanter tricks are not powerful per se but they are very proactive and fun. Hypnotizing monsters into hitting each other is far more entertaining than ordering three dozen animated skeletons to "kill everything in that dungeon and then come back here" even though the latter is safer and more powerful, especially at level ~9.

Illusory step is wonderful, When a dragon gets a nat20 on their bite attack on you being able to make that miss is the most powerful feeling in the world. Pair this with the lucky feat and your survival ability is much better.

Huh. AFB, but I've always thought you had to declare the usage before the attack roll is made. Never occurred to me others might interpret it to let you see the attack roll first. That makes it much more powerful.

[EdenIndustries]

This bit in bold here is a little bit dangerous unless there are at least 3 monsters, because if they hit the guy you're hypnotizing, it breaks your Hypnotic Gaze. All you can do is hope that the DM decides the monster will hit the other monster back instead of attacking you.

Yeah it's a bit dangerous, but when the situation is right it's absolutely thrilling!

Overall I'd say Enchanter tricks are not powerful per se but they are very proactive and fun. Hypnotizing monsters into hitting each other is far more entertaining than ordering three dozen animated skeletons to "kill everything in that dungeon and then come back here" even though the latter is safer and more powerful, especially at level ~9.

I actually do think they're pretty powerful (granted, not as powerful as your undead army clearing dungeons for you...), but even if they aren't I agree that they're super fun! And being able to switch to the standard wizard schtick at any time makes it just that much better.

[MaxWilson]

I actually do think they're pretty powerful (granted, not as powerful as your undead army clearing dungeons for you...), but even if they aren't I agree that they're super fun! And being able to switch to the standard wizard schtick at any time makes it just that much better.

Sounds like we basically agree. I do think these tricks are pretty powerful for their cost and you'll definitely be pulling your weight even in Deadly encounters, I just don't think they're better per se than casting spells like Wall of Force during combat, or that they're as game-breaking as other things you can do even with any Wizard, e.g. Planar Binding two or three Invisible Stalkers for a month and Mage Armoring them, and during combat throwing spells like Web and Evard's Black Tentacles which they are immune to.

BTW another thing you can potentially do with Hypnotic Gaze is keep a fiend/fey/etc. hypnotized for an hour after combat until someone else in the party finishes casting Planar Binding on it, more than once if necessary.

P.S. The limitation that you can't Hypnotic Gaze a monster after it's already succeeded once on its save is less of a restriction than it seems at first.

[EdenIndustries]

Sounds like we basically agree. I do think these tricks are pretty powerful for their cost and you'll definitely be pulling your weight even in Deadly encounters, I just don't think they're better per se than casting spells like Wall of Force during combat, or that they're as game-breaking as other things you can do even with any Wizard, e.g. Planar Binding two or three Invisible Stalkers for a month and Mage Armoring them, and during combat throwing spells like Web and Evard's Black Tentacles which they are immune to.

I agree that we agree! I'm glad to see someone does, I was a bit dismayed to see earlier:

Enchanter's are very meh. Their level 2 feature is meh, their level 6 directly competes with the shield spell and their level 14 is based off charisma modifier. All in all I just want to play a subtle sorcerer whenever I play one.

Of course I respect TheUser's opinion a lot (especially when it comes to Sorcerers), but it's still nice to have someone agree!

One thing I'd point out regarding the power of Hypnotic Gaze though is that to me it's not powerful because it competes with Wall of Force and other options, it's powerful because it can be done in addition to those things. So you Wall of Force the battlefield, and then shut down another enemy with Hypnotic Gaze. Or you unleash your Invisible Stalkers, Web the battlefield, and then lock down another enemy. It just pumps up the already formidable battlefield control of the Wizard! In a way, it kind of blows away the concentration mechanic since it's a bit like you're concentrating on Wall of Force and Hold Monster at the same time! (Not exactly of course, but a bit like it)

BTW another thing you can potentially do with Hypnotic Gaze is keep a fiend/fey/etc. hypnotized for an hour after combat until someone else in the party finishes casting Planar Binding on it, more than once if necessary.

Absolutely! With my Enchanter Wizard I would also keep the BBEG or his important henchmen hypnotized so the party could tie him up and chain him, and then deliver him to town to stand trial. That's cool!

[MaxWilson]

One thing I'd point out regarding the power of Hypnotic Gaze though is that to me it's not powerful because it competes with Wall of Force and other options, it's powerful because it can be done in addition to those things. So you Wall of Force the battlefield, and then shut down another enemy with Hypnotic Gaze. Or you unleash your Invisible Stalkers, Web the battlefield, and then lock down another enemy. It just pumps up the already formidable battlefield control of the Wizard! In a way, it kind of blows away the concentration mechanic since it's a bit like you're concentrating on Wall of Force and Hold Monster at the same time! (Not exactly of course, but a bit like it)

Yes, I agree, with the caveat that in super-tough battles you sometimes wouldn't want to e.g. risk losing Wall of Force concentration by getting close enough to a bad guy to attempt Hypnotic Gaze. It depends on your AC, your feats (Resilient (Con) or Warcaster), how tough the monster is that you're going to try hypnotizing, etc.

I suppose one way to think of it is as if Hypnotic Gaze were the most powerful short-ranged cantrip in the game: that's kind of how you wind up using it. It's more useful in long or unpredictable adventures than short bursty ones where you can afford to nova, but even when you can afford to nova it still has uses (e.g. the aforementioned Planar Binding trick).

[TheUser]

Any wizard ability that requires running into/being in melee means failure is no longer an option. If there's one thing I detest more than save vs suck it's save vs suck at melee range.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that my DM's are just a wee bit more cutthroat in that the few times the enemy resisted my Hypnotic Gaze it was occasionally met with an immediate grapple to the face to keep that pesky wizard's mouth shut.

There was even a time where I tried to Instinctive Charm the grapple attempt and it Succeeded! Only for them to use their second attack and grapple me regardless... (Wamp wamp). Would shield have saved me? No. But just not being in melee would have.

Directly compred to Necromancer where I've literally been asked to never play a necromancer in WotC modules by my long time DM friend because either he has to be unfair to me as a player and pick on me to keep my power in check or watch as I run rampant and up-end every encounter with just 8 skeleton archers.

[MaxWilson]

Any wizard ability that requires running into/being in melee means failure is no longer an option. If there's one thing I detest more than save vs suck it's save vs suck at melee range.

For a pure Enchanter, this is true. For a multiclassed Enchanter, this is very untrue. With good AC (e.g. Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter 3 for AC 19ish from Chain Mail +1 and shield) plus disadvantage to enemy attacks from Invisibility (which also prevents opportunity attacks), you can sometimes go through multiple fights in a dungeon crawl without spending more than that one Invisibility spell and a maybe few HP from a lucky hit. There's usually enough monsters that if one monster resists your Hypnotic Gaze you can just move away and try a different monster next round.

That strategy is cheap enough that you'll have plenty of spell slots left to deal with the encounters where that tactic is inappropriate.

[EdenIndustries]

Any wizard ability that requires running into/being in melee means failure is no longer an option. If there's one thing I detest more than save vs suck it's save vs suck at melee range.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that my DM's are just a wee bit more cutthroat in that the few times the enemy resisted my Hypnotic Gaze it was occasionally met with an immediate grapple to the face to keep that pesky wizard's mouth shut.

There was even a time where I tried to Instinctive Charm the grapple attempt and it Succeeded! Only for them to use their second attack and grapple me regardless... (Wamp wamp). Would shield have saved me? No. But just not being in melee would have.

Directly compred to Necromancer where I've literally been asked to never play a necromancer in WotC modules by my long time DM friend because either he has to be unfair to me as a player and pick on me to keep my power in check or watch as I run rampant and up-end every encounter with just 8 skeleton archers.

Yeah these are all fair points. I guess I just like my wizards high risk/high reward! Which is perhaps not the most optimal way to play them, but I do find it pretty darn fun.

Certainly Necromancers are very strong, but to my personal taste almost too strong to be fun after a little while. Bringing an army to a fist fight is playing the game on easy mode ;). It's also why I personally don't use Simulacrum and such. It's too optimal/powerful for me personally. But of course, all power to you if you enjoy it!

For a pure Enchanter, this is true. For a multiclassed Enchanter, this is very untrue. With good AC (e.g. Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter 3 for AC 19ish from Chain Mail +1 and shield) plus disadvantage to enemy attacks from Invisibility (which also prevents opportunity attacks), you can sometimes go through multiple fights in a dungeon crawl without spending more than that one Invisibility spell and a maybe few HP from a lucky hit. There's usually enough monsters that if one monster resists your Hypnotic Gaze you can just move away and try a different monster next round.

That strategy is cheap enough that you'll have plenty of spell slots left to deal with the encounters where that tactic is inappropriate.

This was pretty much my experience also. I wouldn't try it as a singleclassed Enchanter! But backed by Cleric tankiness and optimizing other things around the plan to get close, it worked out well for me.

[MaxWilson]

Certainly Necromancers are very strong, but to my personal taste almost too strong to be fun after a little while. Bringing an army to a fist fight is playing the game on easy mode ;).

Also, DMs are supposed to roll dice only when the outcome is in doubt. When you've got three dozen skeleton archers on your side against a typical Medium/Hard/Deadly bunch of monsters, the correct DMing when the player declares "I have my skeletons kill all of the monsters" is to respond "Okay, they're dead, and you've lost [some HP, some skeletons]. Now what do you do?" I exaggerate only slightly.

This was pretty much my experience also. I wouldn't try it as a singleclassed Enchanter! But backed by Cleric tankiness and optimizing other things around the plan to get close, it worked out well for me.

Another thing you can do, especially if you're holding up an important spell like the above-mentioned Wall of Force, is to try Hypnotic Gaze and if that doesn't work, cast a Sanctuary with your bonus action. Even with Wis 13, Sanctuary is a pretty good defense against lots of monsters.