Playing a serious character AND avoiding leadership?

[Zhorn]

How does one go about this?

I tend to find any group I play in, by sheer nature of my playstyle being goal orientated, I become the default party leader and face (even in times where I have a CHA score of 5).

Recently started in a new campaign (first session last night, much fun was had), and I'm getting a read from the group that this is probably going to happen again.
Will be putting in some effort to steering away from this outcome, but would like to hear from some forum members of any experiences they're had and any success in the area of playing a serious character that avoided becoming the party leader/face.

[Lord Raziere]

Your being too responsible in your seriousness. your going to have to do something that makes the others go "oh no, this might actually end horribly for us if we allow this guy to keep leading us." have some flaw that makes it a terrible idea for you to handle this sort of thing despite being completely serious.

or more sensibly saying right out you don't want to be party leader or something as a start and just want to pursue whatever goals you want.

maybe try adding a bit of edgelord into it. nothing gets less serious players worried faster than the leader being an edgy angry person. but too much might compromise the seriousness.

or you can try simply- not caring. if you don't want to be a leader as well as be a serious person and your surrounded by sillier guys, why care about the shenanigans they get into? its not your job to stop them from getting into trouble, let them do whatever stupid shenanigans they want until the GM enforces consequences and they crash and burn while you go off and actually get something done. repeat until they realize that your not going to bail them out or keep them on task and they have to figure out how to coordinate and control themselves.

[Zhorn]

Responsibility is not the problem. Murderhobos and loonies don't tend to care about the stability or alignment of the guy/girl calling the shots (disclaimer: talking character, not player), so long as they have a plan to call the shots with.

The key part of my character I chose to try and avoid the leader position was picking Hobgoblin as my race (for context, the setting is Forgotten Realms, with a lot of travel from town to town).
I have so far RP'd enough to make it clear to the other players that it should be expected for me to be not welcomed into most towns on that trait alone, and I will be hooded and disguised for most dealings just to avoid a lynching.

Edgelording is a hard pass. I have no desire to ruin the game for the DM, other players...

Spoiler: ... or myself

Show

The last point is a good one. And would fit in great with how I'd imagine my character to behave.

[Zarrgon]

There might not really be anything much you can do. It's a bit of a fact of life: if you are a serious leader type, then in just about any social group you will be that.

Most people are followers or just don't really care about much of anything. More so, people how are followers will just wait around to have someone lead them. The people that don't care will just do whatever they want for themselves mostly. It's only a few that lead. If that is you, then it will always happen.

Unless there is another leader, stepping back will have no effect: everyone will still wait for you to lead.

[LibraryOgre]

Easiest way? Don't assume they'll follow. Make plans, but only include yourself in them. Don't give them things to do... plan as if they're part of the problem to overcome.

Alternatively, there was a story from Shadowrun, where a GM had one experienced player he was trying to bring out of his shell, and a bunch of newbies. The overenthusiastic newbies made some over-the-top plan, and after a while, the experienced player was forced to step in so they weren't trying to assault the arcology by hot air balloon or something.

[CombatBunny]

You can inspire yourself in those action movie actors like Bruce Willis in “Last boy scout”, that even when they are serious and tough, they usually try to stay in the background and have an attitude like: “If you are going to jump from the cliff be mi guest, but please try not to spill your blood in my Armani”.

[icefractal]

I've run into that as well - I'm not usually trying to be the leader, but I also have a limited tolerance for extended faffing around, so I'll start suggesting plans. If you're the only one doing that, you're the de-facto leader.

One way around that is to be "the wild card" - when people are undecided, just pick a course of action you can do yourself (being a good idea is optional) and begin doing it. Sometimes this will get someone else to step forward with their own plan.

In a way though, that can be more dictatorial than being an official party leader, since you're acting unilaterally and without discussion. So you should give people the opportunity to notice and interrupt if they want to do something else, and be aware of how people feel about it OOC.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hobgoblins are all about strict military hierarchy, right? Maybe you can avoid leadership by over-stressing how much you're leading the group (make your allies call you "captain", require them to set up their tents in the right place, micromanage meal times and expenses, berate them for speaking out of turn), forcing someone to step in and make sure that you're not in charge?

[Marillion]

Hobgoblins are all about strict military hierarchy, right? Maybe you can avoid leadership by over-stressing how much you're leading the group (make your allies call you "captain", require them to set up their tents in the right place, micromanage meal times and expenses, berate them for speaking out of turn), forcing someone to step in and make sure that you're not in charge?

Alternatively, you could be a follower in desperate want of a leader. So far you've stepped up because it needed to be done, but the second any of the other characters shows the slightest affinity or ability for leadership you fall in line and faithfully implement their wishes. You've felt the burden of command and have no taste for it, and therefore will gladly support the leadership of anybody who won't lead you to ruin. This way you can position yourself as a lieutenant or an advisor; somebody who the leader *counts on*. You're a follower, but one who chooses his leader carefully and helps them excel.

[False God]

I've run into that as well - I'm not usually trying to be the leader, but I also have a limited tolerance for extended faffing around, so I'll start suggesting plans. If you're the only one doing that, you're the de-facto leader.

There might not really be anything much you can do. It's a bit of a fact of life: if you are a serious leader type, then in just about any social group you will be that.

@OP the above has experiences have been mine as well. I have a limited tolerance for "goofing off" and tend to be very task-oriented (even IRL I find accomplishing my goals very satisfying and quickly move on to another task once one is completed). To make it worse I have a good memory, I enjoy investing in the gameworld and like to take notes for myself.

Most people are followers. When presented with a strong leadership figure they'll tend to fall in line.

My "solution" has been to play evil characters who are very open about their evil (typically NE or LE). I tend to find that when I don't want the leadership role I often get it anyway against my objections. But when I play characters who are clearly seeking the leadership position and unabashedly will do whatever it takes to get victory, I find I get more pushback from the players, and by extension their characters.

[GrayDeath]

Easy. Just don't take the Leadership Feat. Done. ^^








More serious: Exlibrismortis and Marillion offer the sides of, in my view, the best InGame Solution.

You are a Hobgoblin, utilize it!


If you are looking for an outgame reason, just tell your group "I will not be leading, organising or inspiring anyone this time." And done.

I know from experience that not doing wat you tend to do is hard, but it will only work if you are consequent and unyielding in that regard.

[Guizonde]

going a bit further on marillion's and exlibrismortis' idea, have you tried to identify another character's leadership potential and just play up to that? like, "right jimbo the bard has a good idea, let's follow that", or "mirabelle the wizard's on to something, can you refine the plan, mirabelle?"

it could help if you're the voice of the leader, since your personnality obviously guides people into following your orders. it'll seem silly at first, but as the "leader's" confidence grows, you'll be outgrown and the rest of the group will intuitively follow what they say. that or co-lead, giving good ideas to the "face", and letting them claim it as their own, or simply just give advice without ever taking initiative.

during my pathfinder session, we tended to co-lead, me and another player. i was the wild face, she was the thinker and pretty much dog handler. when i was off the leash, people followed into usual trouble that on multiple occasions equalled to cutting the gordian knot. when she gave me ideas, i played to her much more subtle tune, and everybody thought it was my idea (the characters, not the players, obviously). by the end of it, the group trusted my character enough that after brief discussion, people followed what i said, be it dangerous or smart.

[Jay R]

Somebody who is willing to lead will lead. [Note: I did not say "somebody who wants to lead...". You don't want to lead, but you are willing to, as shown by your actions.]

Either find somebody else who will lead, or nobody else will lead.

[False God]

Either find somebody else who will lead, or nobody else will lead.

Which, IMO, is the worst outcome possible. Particularly if you actually enjoy accomplishing anything.

[Zhorn]

Which is a scary prospect about adventuring parties, and is a good example of why adventurers are so often not welcomed in towns.

Bands of roving adventurers, all chaotic, no major goals or objectives, decked out in magic items and above average power, all just looking for entertainment.

We've only had one session so far, and I don't know anyone from the group outside of this game; so I could be surprised in finding this was just their session groove finding and they'll be more goal orientated next game... I have live in false hope, right?

[SirBellias]

Often times in our games we have no one leader, as each character has slightly different goals than those stated by the whole party. My current character is in the party for the journey, and not for the goal, so they're tending to take a backseat in major decisions.

Serious characters don't have to be serious about the overarching plot. They could be serious about making a better name for themselves and their race, for instance, which may run contrary to the party's goals. If enough people have goals, it works out, but that doesn't really help when no one wants to do anything substantial I guess.

[Jay R]

By the way, while you are trying to fix this problem, don't forget to count your blessings. I'm not denying that it can be a real problem, but I've seen worse. I've been in games with multiple would-be faces insisting on negotiating in multiple conflicting ways simultaneously.

You may not enjoy always being the party face, but when you are negotiating, it must be nice to not have the others getting in your way of your diplomacy.

[Zhorn]

What it will be doing is getting in the way of things I'm trying to achieve with this character and the direction I'm intending to take with him.

I didn't dive into the details of what my character is about because I was asking about other people's experiences of their own, and as already shown above when mentioning my character's race alone has already prompted some attempts at backseat driving on how they think my character should behave rather than talking of their own experiences.
I wanted to look at what others have actually tried and had successes with, then looking at incorporating aspects that would fit with the type of character I'm building. What many people here have been saying is for me to just play a different character than what I had intended.

I have a few CHA based characters in the wings, things I could happily play and serve the role of party face and leader without issue.

An honor bound dwarf looking to protect the lands
A silver tongued tiefling charlatan talking his way into positions of power
A kobold with delusions of being a curse-deformed dragon dominating conversations through sheer force of personality

But they are not THIS current character. And this current character is not meant to be like them.

I'm not trying to come across as rude or ungrateful for the conversation offered up so far. Just want to highlight the intent of my post; asking about other people's experiences.

[Guizonde]

I'm not trying to come across as rude or ungrateful for the conversation offered up so far. Just want to highlight the intent of my post; asking about other people's experiences.

as of last night's roll20 session, a new case came up. the session was street heavy, and we've got a merchant face in the party. so when i (gm) noticed the face lacking initiative, i referred specifically to him, and soon the rest of the team deferred to him in all mercantile dealings, it really was his shining session. among things he did: negociated a contract for our team's fighter to participate in the city's arena, negociated the acquisition of the team's gear, and did a wardrobe makeover so that the team would be taken seriously. all the ideas were his, spurred only by the other characters saying "it would be cool if", he put 2 and 2 together and we managed to have a great session. the nominal team leader took a backseat, since his character was clearly a fish out of water in this session. said nominal team leader is serious and follows the mission to a tee, but knows when to defer expertise. when i say "nominal", i do mean "nominal", first session an npc asked "who's the leader?" the player answered "uh, i'm the scout, so me, i guess?". in a city, though? the face is the leader, no questions asked.

long story short, talk to the group about finding a suitable leader-type, and then get dm-help to bolster said leader role, eventually, the player will grow into it, occasionnally deferring to specialists for advice.

[denthor]

How does one go about this?

I tend to find any group I play in, by sheer nature of my playstyle being goal orientated, I become the default party leader and face (even in times where I have a CHA score of 5).

Recently started in a new campaign (first session last night, much fun was had), and I'm getting a read from the group that this is probably going to happen again.
Will be putting in some effort to steering away from this outcome, but would like to hear from some forum members of any experiences they're had and any success in the area of playing a serious character that avoided becoming the party leader/face.

Refuse the job. Do not speak unless you want a relationship with the NPC. You are by nature the planning and looking for the next thing to do. I walk out of the room. If your a dwarf with other dwarves you talk especially if the 1/2 orc is in charge otherwise just sit there.

Believe me it is painful

[MoiMagnus]

Suggestion:

Pick a leader among the other players. RP as right-hand-man for his character, and refer to his authority when needed. (Having a related background helps, obviously). Sure, you might end up as second-in-command, but that's still quite different from leadership than leader, right?

[Man_Over_Game]

Your being too responsible in your seriousness. your going to have to do something that makes the others go "oh no, this might actually end horribly for us if we allow this guy to keep leading us." have some flaw that makes it a terrible idea for you to handle this sort of thing despite being completely serious.

or more sensibly saying right out you don't want to be party leader or something as a start and just want to pursue whatever goals you want.

maybe try adding a bit of edgelord into it. nothing gets less serious players worried faster than the leader being an edgy angry person. but too much might compromise the seriousness.

or you can try simply- not caring. if you don't want to be a leader as well as be a serious person and your surrounded by sillier guys, why care about the shenanigans they get into? its not your job to stop them from getting into trouble, let them do whatever stupid shenanigans they want until the GM enforces consequences and they crash and burn while you go off and actually get something done. repeat until they realize that your not going to bail them out or keep them on task and they have to figure out how to coordinate and control themselves.

This is my advice. I've ran into the same problem playing the military types. It doesn't help that I'm usually the most educated on whatever system we're playing.

Make the seriousness towards their goal benefit them, but make sure they understand where your differences between their goals and yours start.

Maybe your mission to end the Dark Lord is expected to have a few casualties. Planned, even.
Maybe you're so addicted to new magic that you've considered all of the threats, and any possible marks in your team.
Or maybe you're so paranoid that you consider your team as potential threats.
And, of course, the lone wolf concept.

Sometimes, it just comes down to providing information but no plan. "I scouted the alley earlier. It doesn't seem they post guards at the kitchen entrance".

Or, you reiterate the goals but ask someone else what the plan is. "It doesn't seem like anyone's guarding the kitchen entrance at night, but I think we should act fast. What's the call, Paladin?"

It basically boils down to this: Make a situation where someone else states what the GOOD plan is, either because:

• The plan you decided was a bad plan (such as using civilians as bait), but your information is useful for a good plan. Your plan has to be so bad that it hurts the players or their goals.
• You provided the information, but no plan. Alternatively, you can ask for a plan.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

My solution to having this problem myself was to really play up how unreliable and poor my character's plans and / or leadership was.

Party: "So now what do we do?"
Not-Leader: "Dunno. Maybe, though.... We want to kill that Demon Lord, right? Let's just go to their base and fight it out, leave it to the fates."
Party: "Anyone else? Please?"

Still dead serious, but he's clearly not a smart guy, and definitely isn't diplomatic.

If you're supposed to have a low charisma, and you as a player don't - that's one of the hardest things to play. The OP mentioned a CHA 5 character: that's maybe the sort of person people don't even bother to dislike, they're so uninteresting. When the players ask you what to do, say that your character looks down at the ground and shakes their head.

On the other hand, if your player group is really terrible at planning without you, write notes and pass them to other players, so they can make the plan instead.

[Zhorn]

Good news: I've successfully established that I am at the very least not the party's face.
(a lot of highlighting to the group of the racial disadvantage I'm playing with, and how it puts me on bad terms before any negotiating even starts)

Still the most active at planning and putting things into motions, but as the session progressed a few of the other are starting to assert plans of their own.
(though I disagree with some of them, I'm happy that they are not relying on me to decide everything, slowly moving to a voice in the group rather than the person with the only plan)

[Guizonde]

Good news: I've successfully established that I am at the very least not the party's face.
(a lot of highlighting to the group of the racial disadvantage I'm playing with, and how it puts me on bad terms before any negotiating even starts)

Still the most active at planning and putting things into motions, but as the session progressed a few of the other are starting to assert plans of their own.
(though I disagree with some of them, I'm happy that they are not relying on me to decide everything, slowly moving to a voice in the group rather than the person with the only plan)

that's great news! i'm happy for you. glad to know you're an advisor. groups always need different points of view to make sure their plan is the best.

[Lord Torath]

I was playing Deathwatch with my daughter, and we have a rotating leader position. When it was her turn to be Team Lead, I'd just say "OK, what do you want to do?" When she asked for advice, I gave it, but I didn't take action without her order. It seemed to work pretty well. Her brother helped as well. By the end of the session, she was feeling pretty confident.