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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Edit: Real law has nothing to do with rules lawyers. If you play with lawyers and judges that's good for you, but completely and utterly irrelevant.
    They both involve attempting to persuade others to adopt your way of seeing things...
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    They both involve attempting to persuade others to adopt your way of seeing things...
    Not quite, but I see your comparison. If I were an actual lawyer myself I would be highly offended by the comparison of someone that is arguing the rules of a game to the years of law school required to be a lawyer though. In my mind that's tantamount to comparing the game Operation to a surgeon. They're both trying to "save their patient"

    Which by the way the concept of obeying the letter of the law (RAW) and the spirit of the law (RAI) is something that is often in question in legal cases. Not in every case, but in enough that you CAN draw similarities. I don't wish to get into a debate on the similarities of real law to a game because the ways they are similar are far fewer than the ways they are different.

    I've made my arguments already and once again the thread is resorting to misdirection and obfuscation. Your belief is your belief and I don't care to change it as I'm never going to be in the same game as you. I enjoyed the circular argumentation, but won't be responding any further in this thread.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    If a Necromancer is transmogrified into a toad...Inured to Undeath applies. The Wiz keeps their HP max...which is very different than a toadís HP max.
    Are you sure? My interpretation of something like this is that your stats are being replaced with that of the toad. Your max HP hasn't actually changed, it's just that you aren't using your HP, but the toad's. For something like the Polymorph spell, once the toad's HP are exhausted, you revert back to wizard form, which uses your own HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    And yes. Aid DOES provide a permanent increase to a Necromancers maximum hit points
    I'm going to disagree with this, but this might be getting down to an argument of semantics.

    Inured to Undeath prevents any reduction in max HP.
    Aid gives a bonus to max HP.
    When Aid expires, your max HP are not being reduced, the bonus is simply no longer being applied. Thus, Inured to Undeath doesn't have any effect.

    Now, there might be a valid interpretation where Aid does provide a permanent increase to a necromancer's max HP. However, this would allow you to repeatedly cast Aid on the necromancer in order to get virtually infinite HP. This clearly isn't RAI.

    Now, we could say that they're still under the effect of Aid, and thus can't benefit from a second casting, but I don't think this is true. If the spell has expired, then it's no longer affecting them. If a spell has lingering effects after it ends, those effects aren't considered to be part of the spell, even if they were initially caused by the spell. This is why Dispel Magic doesn't destroy undead created with Animate Dead. It's also why Dispel Magic doesn't undo damage or healing caused by spells.

    To me, the most sensible way to handle Aid for necromancers is as I laid out above: the expiration of the spell is not a reduction in max HP, but simply a bonus no longer being applied. To treat it differently causes problems like what you mentioned to come up. You could say that either interpretation is valid, but one causes fewer problems than the other; it makes sense to use the interpretation that causes fewer problems.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Titan in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Which by the way the concept of obeying the letter of the law (RAW) and the spirit of the law (RAI) is something that is often in question in legal cases.
    In this particular tangent of the thread though we are in fact arguing over what the letter of the law is w/rt the word "reduction". IIRC you've referred to it as a RAW vs. RAI thing before, but it's really an argument about what the letter of the law actually is, and now you're implicitly that this really is a debate about RAW not RAI.

    This is not a debate about the spirit of the law.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    "Your hit point maximum is halved" when exhausted (level 4). Necromancers are immune. This clarifies that Necromancers are not just specifically immune to undeath-related HP reductions, despite the fluff. It's still a reduction though, not a bonus, therefore not germane to your argument.

    Citing this post at all in support of your literalist reading of the word "reduction" is spurious.
    My point is we don't really have a legislative intent to work off of in this particular case.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    LOL, no I play with players that are lawyers in real life. A legal argument that has as itís crux, an UNUSAL interpretation of a single word. An argument without support of precedent, or legislative intent....that type of argument prevails only if the presiding Magistrate WANTs it to....and is an Activist Judge.
    For someone who plays with lawyers, surprisingly little has managed to pass over through osmosis...

    A DM ruling is not reliant on precedent at all as any judgement that a DM comes to is independent of any other rulings by other DM's in other games and is further removed from the notion of precedent as it doesn't even need to remain consistent with the context of a "trial" as a DM can change the way they rule on something within a given session/campaign for whatever reason.

    As for legislative intent, we have only 1 sage advice regarding inured to undeath that would seem to indicate a "literalist" view is taken (not "unusual").

    The only accurate point of this analogy is that both a DM and judge are somewhat democratically responsible in that they can be voted out (in the U.S.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    If a Necromancer is transmogrified into a toad...Inured to Undeath applies. The Wiz keeps their HP max...which is very different than a toadís HP max.

    Keep in mind, the Wizardís EFFECTIVE HP changes to the toadís. Healing Magic would be required to bring effective HP to the Wizardís Maximum HP total.

    This is RAW.

    While in the form of a 500 HP monstrosity, Inured to Undeath applies.

    Once out of the body that 500 HP Maximum, is no longer YOURís.

    That Monstrosity is not your agent, you have no innate nor contractual possessive rights over the Monstosityís Hit Point Maximum.

    In your Body, your Hit Point Maximum is what is on your character sheet.

    If you rent an apartment, it is not YOURís after the lease ends. Which is essentially what you are claiming. It is a spurious claim.

    Are you also going to claim the Aid spell also permanently increases a personís HP Max that has a feature like Inured to Undeath?

    I hope the post did not come off as rude, but the argument is flawed.
    RAW there is no such thing as transmogrification in 5e...

    If a necromancer is "polymorphed" then inured to undeath does -not- kick in because all of their class features and abilities are replaced by the Toad's (of which Inured to Undeath is absent).

    Where as something like shapechange, wildshape and magic jar specifically annotate that class features are "retained" (current hit points is another story entirely)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Inured to Undeath prevents any reduction in max HP.
    Aid gives a bonus to max HP.
    When Aid expires, your max HP are not being reduced, the bonus is simply no longer being applied. Thus, Inured to Undeath doesn't have any effect.

    Now, there might be a valid interpretation where Aid does provide a permanent increase to a necromancer's max HP. However, this would allow you to repeatedly cast Aid on the necromancer in order to get virtually infinite HP. This clearly isn't RAI.

    Now, we could say that they're still under the effect of Aid, and thus can't benefit from a second casting, but I don't think this is true. If the spell has expired, then it's no longer affecting them. If a spell has lingering effects after it ends, those effects aren't considered to be part of the spell, even if they were initially caused by the spell. This is why Dispel Magic doesn't destroy undead created with Animate Dead. It's also why Dispel Magic doesn't undo damage or healing caused by spells.

    To me, the most sensible way to handle Aid for necromancers is as I laid out above: the expiration of the spell is not a reduction in max HP, but simply a bonus no longer being applied. To treat it differently causes problems like what you mentioned to come up. You could say that either interpretation is valid, but one causes fewer problems than the other; it makes sense to use the interpretation that causes fewer problems.
    You have a contract with your boss that says your wage cannot be reduced.
    You are put onto a project that requires more specialization in a given skill or an additional set of skills or for whatever reason your wage goes up during the project (danger pay seems like a good example).
    You are off the project in a few months and your boss wants to put you back to your old wage, since the whole purpose of the increase was danger pay and you are no longer in danger back in your old position. Have they reduced your wage? Does your contract clause kick in?
    This isn't about what you think is right, it boils down to what the words say and what the word reduced means.
    Turns out, replacing a bigger number with a smaller number is still technically a reduction.

    Spoiler
    Show

    verb (used with object), re∑duced, re∑duc∑ing.
    to bring down to a smaller extent, size, amount, number, etc.: to reduce one's weight by 10 pounds.


    There are even other spells that go to great lengths to make sure that they say "..spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the targetís speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained." (freedom of movement) this would point to the absence of an effect (like losing haste) would still reduce your speed because the caveats of the ability denote that the reduction must be caused by a spell or magical effect not lack thereof.

    Inured to Undeath could very well say, "your maximum hit points can no longer be reduced by spells, abilities or effects" and yet it does not.

    To digress, there is absolutely nothing broken about having a high HP homunculous. I honestly would never guess that a DM would rule against the necromancer in this regard.
    I would also note that maximum hit points and current hit points are not intrinsically bound to one another; if a homunculous lives and has 1/99 hit points and its master rests, reducing it's max hp back to 5, it goes to 1/5 hit points. Unless otherwise noted, a change in maximum hit points does not affect current hit points or vice versa unless you are reducing maximum hit points to a point below current hitpoints (in which case current must fall at or below maximum).

    EDIT: accidentally deleted post because I thought I double posted.
    Last edited by TheUser; 2020-04-04 at 07:36 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    There are even other spells that go to great lengths to make sure that they say "..spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the targetís speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained." (freedom of movement) this would point to the absence of an effect (like losing haste) would still reduce your speed because the caveats of the ability denote that the reduction must be caused by a spell or magical effect not lack thereof.
    They go to those lengths to clarify that being grappled, restrained by a net, or having your speed reduced through non-magical means (like copper dragon's breath) still work. And by your interpretadion, dispeling 'speed increase' from Haste would still be a spell reducing your speed.

    Inured to Undeath could very well say, "your maximum hit points can no longer be reduced by spells, abilities or effects" and yet it does not.
    It could, but it would be a waste of space, and it would still allow your HP max to be reduced by 4 levels of exhaustion (as that's a condition, not a spell, ability or effect (whatever the last is supposed to mean)).
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2020-04-04 at 08:23 AM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Aug 2016

    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    They go to those lengths to clarify that being grappled, restrained by a net, or having your speed reduced through non-magical means (like copper dragon's breath) still work. And by your interpretadion, dispeling 'speed increase' from Haste would still be a spell reducing your speed.
    {Scrubbed}

    This would be a case where a spell "effect" is not reducing speed, it is the absence of an effect, which is not the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    It could, but it would be a waste of space, and it would still allow your HP max to be reduced by 4 levels of exhaustion (as that's a condition, not a spell, ability or effect (whatever the last is supposed to mean)).
    It would not. Since having your HP reduced by/to half from exhaustion is an "effect" of exhaustion {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by truemane; 2020-04-06 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Scrubbed

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Oct 2015

    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    So how does Sanctuary work in bizzaro world? Does it count creative insults (attack on character), misspoken idioms (attack on language), and misquoted Shakespeare (attack on literature) in its prohibited behaviors?

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Titan in the Playground
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    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    So how does Sanctuary work in bizzaro world? Does it count creative insults (attack on character), misspoken idioms (attack on language), and misquoted Shakespeare (attack on literature) in its prohibited behaviors?
    This post amused me greatly but since it didn't quote anything I wasn't able to determine what prompted it. Wrong thread or just sarcasm?
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    I believe zalabim is pointing out that unless the authors of the rules go to legalese lengths to explicitly define everything they mean, there will always be some assumptions and intentions taken into account. In their example, Sanctuary is of course referring to any hostile damage dealing action when it says "attack", but the spell doesn't explicitly say that.
    5E just isn't made with that level of explicitness, WotC believes that any DM can look at their rules and say "no, sanctuary doesn't prevent someone from butchering their way through Hamlet." Though I'd love be a part of a table where that attempt is made.
    Other games have writing that's closer to that level of explicitness, and people often enjoy spending lots of time on character creation in those systems, because there's so much more to work with. In 5E, we can generally assume the designers did not intend for any creative rules readings that lead to massive buffs.



    If your table is okay with reading the rules in such a way that certain characters will get massive buffs, then you are free to do so at your own table in your personal game.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Orc in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    So assuming your Maximum Hit Points cannot be reduced by any means would that mean if you Attuned to the Amulet that raises your Constitution to 19 and then ditched it your Max HP wouldn't lower because, "It cannot be reduced?"

    Because that sounds... really really wrong.
    It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Necromancers have the toughest homonculi

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    So how does Sanctuary work in bizzaro world? Does it count creative insults (attack on character), misspoken idioms (attack on language), and misquoted Shakespeare (attack on literature) in its prohibited behaviors?
    Unfortunately you can't protect a language or literature using the sanctuary spell (explicitly protects creatures) but verbal abuse hurled your way that are attacks on your character might trigger the spell :P

    The real question is does it leave "yo' mamma" insults on the table since sanctuary specifically protects a creature and not their mothers...
    Last edited by TheUser; 2020-04-06 at 09:30 AM.

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