Rebalancing Spellcasting 5e

[Cikomyr2]

I was wondering. I think at high levels, spells are just too much of a game breaker to be spontaneously cast. I don't mind Wizards and Sorcerers and all to change the world in a major way by doing magic, but I think gameplay and thematic wise, high level spells should be less a half second effort.

What if a Sudden Death spell would take two Actions to cast. You can do your bonus action during rounds where you cast the spell. You can take your movement. But your action is dedicated in pre-casting your spell. You can hold an uncast spell for a while with Concentration checks. But you have to finish it to actually cast it. So it won't get out next round.

The idea is to.. Make high level (11+) spellcasters just a little slower to deploy their top lvl 6+ spells, which are kind of a game breaker a times.

I like that they are gamebreaker. It's high level magic. But I think the game might be more enjoyable and tactical if the casters had to dedicate 2+ rounds of action deploying their Big Cannons. Again, they have their bonus action and movement.

However, a Fighter/Caster could dedicate their Action Surge to do two casting actions jn the same round.

And i guess a sorcerer with Swift casting could replace one of the casting action for a Bonus action.

Whatcha think?

[Man_Over_Game]

I like it.

I'm a big proponent of nerfing how much magic scales, while also keeping low-level magic viable.

This would go a long way to see some value out of upcasting lower level spells.

You could adopt something akin to Pathfinder 2e's versatility in spells, where you sacrifice components of your turn to fuel additional effects.

For example, Delay = 3xSpell Level. Each turn you spend your Action attempting to cast a spell, reduce its Delay by your Spellcasting bonus. You can also spend all of your Speed during your turn , or spend your Bonus Action, to reduce its Delay by half of your Spellcasting Bonus (rounded up). When the spell's Delay is no higher than 0, you spend your spell slot to cast the spell. Otherwise, you'll need to use your Concentration to maintain your progress on that spell to reduce its Delay in a following turn.

With a spellcasting bonus max of +11, and an estimated minimum of +4, it'd take into account a wide variety of experiences for your casters, although it's a bit finicky and would require tracking Delay between each level. And I obviously haven't playtested it yet to see if it actually holds up. Yours might be better for the simplicity and the lack of need to track a Delay count.

[terodil]

I don't understand; would you tie it to the spell level or to the level of the spell slot used?

I'm not sure what problem exactly you are trying to solve. What are those 'game changers' you are talking about? I doubt it'd be helpful to make sweeping changes across the board to anything past lvl 5. Harm/Heal, Chain Lightning etc. hardly seem so out-of-whack with what a martial can do that it'd be fair to just double their cast time AND make them subject to concentration rules on top of everything else they already have to contend with to be effective (resource expenditure, SR, ST, attack roll, ...). To me it would seem to make more sense to tackle specific issues you may have with specific spells.

Also, making classes slower to play is a bad idea. If you think the damage output is too high, lower the damage dice or introduce a ceiling. Control spells too effective? Allow additional saves, cut their duration, or introduce a ceiling to max targets affected, if you must.

[MrStabby]

I dont think harm or heal are the best examples of high level spells where a slower casting time is needed. I would suggest that you look at something like forcecage.

High level spell but demonstrating you dont need wish levels for it to be a problem. Still being a spell that uses an action to effectively end a huge range of combats.

I think the rule is ok. It does tick a lot of boxes but doesn't impact a lot of spells like teleport that have a profound narrative impact beyond that which a fighter of a similar level could achieve.

On the other side of the coin, tying it in to something like spell points variants could encourage use of more low level spells but fewer games changing spells. Give something back that encourages things that make a game good but discouraging things that make it less good.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't understand; would you tie it to the spell level or to the level of the spell slot used?

I'm not sure what problem exactly you are trying to solve. What are those 'game changers' you are talking about? I doubt it'd be helpful to make sweeping changes across the board to anything past lvl 5. Harm/Heal, Chain Lightning etc. hardly seem so out-of-whack with what a martial can do that it'd be fair to just double their cast time AND make them subject to concentration rules on top of everything else they already have to contend with to be effective (resource expenditure, SR, ST, attack roll, ...).

Well, I dunno about that.

At level 11, a single spell slot, at 6th level spent on your example of Chain Lightning, will afford that Wizard about 3-4 turns of a Fighter hacking away. That's without spending a single other spell slot.

Spoiler: Numbers for NERDS

Show

Your example of Chain Lightning hits between 1-4 creatures. Assuming you don't ever cast it on a single target, but we put a bit of extra weight on the '2' (basically to emphasize that you're twice as likely to hit 2 than 3 or 4), that's x2.75 targets per casting.

It deals 10d8 Lightning damage, or 45 average damage per creature hit. It also halves on a miss, so assuming we're talking about a 60% hit chance, that's a 40.23 average damage per target.

With an average of x2.75 targets hit, we're looking at 110.6 damage per casting.

That's a level 6 spell, the most expensive it'd be is a level 11 character.

With a level 11 Fighter, dealing about 15 damage per hit and a ~75% hit chance, we're looking at an average of 11 damage per attack, 3 attacks per turn, and 3 more attacks in the first turn of each encounter.

So a Fighter will be dealing 66 damage on the first turn, followed by 33 damage for each turn beyond that.

Even if the Caster only spent the following turns casting Fire Bolt (3d10 + 75%= *12.375‬), it'd take the Fighter about 4 rounds to start dealing more damage than the Wizard's single level 6 spell slot spent.

Even if the Caster has to hypothetically spend all of his spell slots to keep up with the Fighter, he'd have 5 cantrips to use outside of combat. For a Fighter to gain that same level of contribution out of combat, he'd have to spend ~2 feats (based on the value of 2 Magic Initiate feats), which which will almost definitely impact their contribution in combat.

Besides the fact that Fighters live twice as long (3.5 HP vs. 5.5 HP, then accounting for the ~30% decreased hit chance against the Fighter), and a select few levels before level 6, I'm not seeing too many examples of scenarios where Fighters and other martials perform better than casters. Their most unique contribution that I've seen is that they can take more hits, which is pretty dang lackluster if you ask me.

They can pull their weight, but I think that's a reflection of how easy 5e is, not how effective martials are. A Bard with hardly any combat spells can pull their own weight in a combat encounter. We're not saying "martials aren't successful", we're saying "magic is more successful".

[SanguisAevum]

Whatcha think?

I think you’re wasting your time, 5e spell casting is balanced fine as it is.

[furby076]

I think its a lot of work for no gain and lots of pain. At high levels wizards has to deal with legendary saves, high saves and save or suck situations. It would also get boring for spellcaster to wait around (or run around trying to avoid being hit)

[Pex]

They only get one spell per level at those levels, and the bad guys might make the saving throw. Why take away their fun? I'm in a high level game now. Everyone is happy when the spellcaster casts his or her 6th or 7th level spell. We know it's a big deal. It's supposed to be a big deal. The encounter demands the big deal. It helps everyone. We all do our part and do not resent someone else having their big moment because what they do wins the day. Sometimes it's the sorcerer casting twin True Seeing. Sometimes it's the druid casting Fire Storm. Sometimes it's the cleric succeeding in calling for Divine Intervention. Sometimes it's the barbarian running up to the mindflayer hiding in an alcove to throw it into the middle of the corridor allowing the rest of the party to pummel it death when they otherwise couldn't.

Would you be playing fair? Do powerful monsters also take two rounds to do their thing? How many rounds does a beholder take to use its eye rays? How many rounds does a dragon take to unleash its breath weapon? How many rounds does it take a creature to use its Legendary Actions? How many rounds does the Monster's Lair take to do its effect?

You're adding frustration, not fun. Spellcasters are entitled to do their thing.

[Luccan]

They only get one spell per level at those levels, and the bad guys might make the saving throw. Why take away their fun? I'm in a high level game now. Everyone is happy when the spellcaster casts his or her 6th or 7th level spell. We know it's a big deal. It's supposed to be a big deal. The encounter demands the big deal. It helps everyone. We all do our part and do not resent someone else having their big moment because what they do wins the day. Sometimes it's the sorcerer casting twin True Seeing. Sometimes it's the druid casting Fire Storm. Sometimes it's the cleric succeeding in calling for Divine Intervention. Sometimes it's the barbarian running up to the mindflayer hiding in an alcove to throw it into the middle of the corridor allowing the rest of the party to pummel it death when they otherwise couldn't.

Would you be playing fair? Do powerful monsters also take two rounds to do their thing? How many rounds does a beholder take to use its eye rays? How many rounds does a dragon take to unleash its breath weapon? How many rounds does it take a creature to use its Legendary Actions? How many rounds does the Monster's Lair take to do its effect?

You're adding frustration, not fun. Spellcasters are entitled to do their thing.

Emphasis mine.

This is the big one to remember when trying to find balance between casters and martials, at least in an established system. Many spells are as much a boon to the party as a whole as they are to the caster.

[Misterwhisper]

Simple:

You can concentrate on a number of spells equal to half your proficiency bonus.

Casting any spell within melee weapon range of an enemy provokes Opportunity Attacks, unless it has subtle spell used on it.

[Luccan]

Simple:

You can concentrate on a number of spells equal to half your proficiency bonus.

Casting any spell within melee weapon range of an enemy provokes Opportunity Attacks, unless it has subtle spell used on it.

Uh, that first one is definitely a boost to spellcasters, particularly at low levels when they don't need to worry about these extended casting times. Normally you can only concentrate on one spell at a time.

[Rukelnikov]

They only get one spell per level at those levels, and the bad guys might make the saving throw. Why take away their fun? I'm in a high level game now. Everyone is happy when the spellcaster casts his or her 6th or 7th level spell. We know it's a big deal. It's supposed to be a big deal. The encounter demands the big deal. It helps everyone. We all do our part and do not resent someone else having their big moment because what they do wins the day. Sometimes it's the sorcerer casting twin True Seeing. Sometimes it's the druid casting Fire Storm. Sometimes it's the cleric succeeding in calling for Divine Intervention. Sometimes it's the barbarian running up to the mindflayer hiding in an alcove to throw it into the middle of the corridor allowing the rest of the party to pummel it death when they otherwise couldn't.

Would you be playing fair? Do powerful monsters also take two rounds to do their thing? How many rounds does a beholder take to use its eye rays? How many rounds does a dragon take to unleash its breath weapon? How many rounds does it take a creature to use its Legendary Actions? How many rounds does the Monster's Lair take to do its effect?

You're adding frustration, not fun. Spellcasters are entitled to do their thing.

Well said.

[MrStabby]

They only get one spell per level at those levels, and the bad guys might make the saving throw. Why take away their fun? I'm in a high level game now. Everyone is happy when the spellcaster casts his or her 6th or 7th level spell. We know it's a big deal. It's supposed to be a big deal. The encounter demands the big deal. It helps everyone. We all do our part and do not resent someone else having their big moment because what they do wins the day. Sometimes it's the sorcerer casting twin True Seeing. Sometimes it's the druid casting Fire Storm. Sometimes it's the cleric succeeding in calling for Divine Intervention. Sometimes it's the barbarian running up to the mindflayer hiding in an alcove to throw it into the middle of the corridor allowing the rest of the party to pummel it death when they otherwise couldn't.

Would you be playing fair? Do powerful monsters also take two rounds to do their thing? How many rounds does a beholder take to use its eye rays? How many rounds does a dragon take to unleash its breath weapon? How many rounds does it take a creature to use its Legendary Actions? How many rounds does the Monster's Lair take to do its effect?

You're adding frustration, not fun. Spellcasters are entitled to do their thing.

There is a fine line between this being appropriate and this being an inappropriate and monumentally selfish approach.

It is fine as long as a casters big thing does not diminish what another players big thing is. If another player's big thing is doing damage and meteor swarm overshadows that then one players big thing is spoiling the experience if someone else. If a players big thing is absorbing damage and a high level spell stops that damage then one player being inconsiderate spoils the fun of another player. If a player plays a ranger to guide the party accross the wilderness and that gets skipped through a teleport spell then that player doing their thing is taking away from the fun of someone else at the table.

Any analysis that only looks at that one player and what that player wants is bound to be flawed. Likewise an analysis that looks at the encounter that was, rather than the encounter that would be in the absence of high level spells is similarly problematic.

It isn't just winning or losing but ensuring that every player has a chance to shine during that process but also that they have a chance to shine at equally dramatic and narratively important points. Who ever is running the game needs to look after the fun of the whole table and not just one player.

[Trask]

I agree with the intent behind this rule, but I feel like requiring multiple actions to cast a single spell could lead to gameplay that is not so fun.

I do think that 6th level spells and above is where casters start to dominate so hard that it becomes a little ridiculous, but perhaps the solution is to be stricter on long rests and recovery than to make spellcasting itself harder.

[Cikomyr2]

I agree with the intent behind this rule, but I feel like requiring multiple actions to cast a single spell could lead to gameplay that is not so fun.

I do think that 6th level spells and above is where casters start to dominate so hard that it becomes a little ridiculous, but perhaps the solution is to be stricter on long rests and recovery than to make spellcasting itself harder.

Well, making spellcasting harder is the point of this thread.

The thing I was thinking too is that I feel villains who just pop Power Word kill are a bit cheap. Like, it would be nice if players had some idea of the massive spells that was gonna come their way, and had a beat to react to it.

[Misterwhisper]

Uh, that first one is definitely a boost to spellcasters, particularly at low levels when they don't need to worry about these extended casting times. Normally you can only concentrate on one spell at a time.

It would be level 9 before they can concentrate on 2 spells at once.

It is more to balance the threat of the second point, and to make it more dangerous.

[MrStabby]

Well, making spellcasting harder is the point of this thread.

The thing I was thinking too is that I feel villains who just pop Power Word kill are a bit cheap. Like, it would be nice if players had some idea of the massive spells that was gonna come their way, and had a beat to react to it.

The think I like is that it adds to the interplay between magic and mundane.

If someone throws a massive attack at you you can use shield or you might be invisible... there are lots of ways as a spellcaster to interact with that. What the game is missing is different ways for a warrior to interact to stop spell effects working - they are passive subjects to magic rather than it being an engaging back and forth. This at least adds some of that.

[Cikomyr2]

The think I like is that it adds to the interplay between magic and mundane.

If someone throws a massive attack at you you can use shield or you might be invisible... there are lots of ways as a spellcaster to interact with that. What the game is missing is different ways for a warrior to interact to stop spell effects working - they are passive subjects to magic rather than it being an engaging back and forth. This at least adds some of that.

"the enemy wizard starts casting.."
Wizard: I know what it is?
Dm: you detect a massive evocation spell coming up
Wizard: ****, take cover guys!
Fighter: I screen the cleric with my shield!

That sort of things. Or maybe the rogue goes for a desperate stabby stab stab to make the villain lose concentration.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Just don't play at higher levels.

It is better to ban a mechanic then make it hard to use.
Limit the max level is your game, ban full casters. Don't make it not enjoyable to use.

The fighter can use his action surge every fight after a short rest. A wizard can never use the 6 level spell more then ones a day(I am talking about level 11).

[MrStabby]

"the enemy wizard starts casting.."
Wizard: I know what it is?
Dm: you detect a massive evocation spell coming up
Wizard: ****, take cover guys!
Fighter: I screen the cleric with my shield!

That sort of things. Or maybe the rogue goes for a desperate stabby stab stab to make the villain lose concentration.

Exactly this kind of thing yes. This is what the game needs more of. Uses of reactions that can stop spells just as they stop weapon attacks.

[Cikomyr2]

Exactly this kind of thing yes. This is what the game needs more of. Uses of reactions that can stop spells just as they stop weapon attacks.

I was thinking. What if the pre-casting was used of bonus action for a few rounds. Like, level 9 spells is 2 rounds of bonus actions, and 1 round of action.

The high spellcaster can still cast low level spells with their actions during that time?

Thinking of master wizards preparing a massive meteor storm in their right hand, and a fireball with the left.

[Trask]

I was thinking. What if the pre-casting was used of bonus action for a few rounds. Like, level 9 spells is 2 rounds of bonus actions, and 1 round of action.

The high spellcaster can still cast low level spells with their actions during that time?

Thinking of master wizards preparing a massive meteor storm in their right hand, and a fireball with the left.

I like this one, it delays the spell but doesnt keep the caster from doing other things entirely.

[Ryuu Hayato]

I think lvl 9 spells should be gone. Wish and others are too much game breaking and martials don't have anything like that.

[MrStabby]

I was thinking. What if the pre-casting was used of bonus action for a few rounds. Like, level 9 spells is 2 rounds of bonus actions, and 1 round of action.

The high spellcaster can still cast low level spells with their actions during that time?

Thinking of master wizards preparing a massive meteor storm in their right hand, and a fireball with the left.

I like it, although maybe I wouldn't look to have a defined spell, but maybe a declared school and level. Give a bit of flexibility.

[JNAProductions]

I think lvl 9 spells should be gone. Wish and others are too much game breaking and martials don't have anything like that.

I was gonna do the numbers on Meteor Swarm versus a high-level martial, but I realized there's no point. The concept you're arguing is flawed from the start.

If you feel that magic gets cool stuff and martials don't, give martials cool stuff. Don't take away magic's coolness, add more awesome to the game for other people.

[MaxWilson]

I was gonna do the numbers on Meteor Swarm versus a high-level martial, but I realized there's no point. The concept you're arguing is flawed from the start.

If you feel that magic gets cool stuff and martials don't, give martials cool stuff. Don't take away magic's coolness, add more awesome to the game for other people.

Or run a nonmagical-Fighters-and-Rogues-only concept game.

[detro]

A quick and dirty solution is that when on a players turn they declare they are casting a spell, but the spell isn't actually cast until the initiative count of (original initiative - 2*spell level).
It's treated as pseudo concentration, whenever they receive damage between beginning and finishing casting the spell they must succeed a concentration check or fail to cast the spell that round.

So lets say Wilgaf the Vile with an initiative of 13 decides they want to cast a third level spell on their turn. Wilgaf begins the casting process and in the meantime any player with an initiative from 7 to 12 has the opportunity attempt an attack and disrupt the spell.
For an extra dynamic, it could be based on the original level of the spell. An upcast burning hands has less of a chance of being disrupted than a fireball, creating interesting tradeoffs.

[deljzc]

Isn't part of the problem we've gone away from D&D being a "resource management" game?

The ease of resting and recouping your high-end powers (almost for all classes) has eliminated almost any fear of spellcasters worrying about what is "aorund the next bend" and whether or not THIS is the hardest encounter the party will face. We have turned D&D into so much of a linear experience (battle, battle, battle, rest, battle, battle, rest, BOSS FIGHT) that much of the rollplaying and worry and tension that comes from managing a LONG adventure with limited resources is now gone.

That's okay. I understand the change. D&D plays more like a computer game now. Players like to battle with all their tricks and powers. It's fun.

But with that, it makes it hard to balance spellcasting at higher levels.

[Trask]

Isn't part of the problem we've gone away from D&D being a "resource management" game?

The ease of resting and recouping your high-end powers (almost for all classes) has eliminated almost any fear of spellcasters worrying about what is "aorund the next bend" and whether or not THIS is the hardest encounter the party will face. We have turned D&D into so much of a linear experience (battle, battle, battle, rest, battle, battle, rest, BOSS FIGHT) that much of the rollplaying and worry and tension that comes from managing a LONG adventure with limited resources is now gone.

That's okay. I understand the change. D&D plays more like a computer game now. Players like to battle with all their tricks and powers. It's fun.

But with that, it makes it hard to balance spellcasting at higher levels.

I do agree that the design intent of d&d 5e seems to trend towards a predictable, linear battle cycle (the "adventuring day") but I also think the game is flexible enough to not be played that way.

[Misterwhisper]

Isn't part of the problem we've gone away from D&D being a "resource management" game?

The ease of resting and recouping your high-end powers (almost for all classes) has eliminated almost any fear of spellcasters worrying about what is "aorund the next bend" and whether or not THIS is the hardest encounter the party will face. We have turned D&D into so much of a linear experience (battle, battle, battle, rest, battle, battle, rest, BOSS FIGHT) that much of the rollplaying and worry and tension that comes from managing a LONG adventure with limited resources is now gone.

That's okay. I understand the change. D&D plays more like a computer game now. Players like to battle with all their tricks and powers. It's fun.

But with that, it makes it hard to balance spellcasting at higher levels.

That is because dnd is not a resource management game.

The game is balanced to be that way from the character creation and mechanic standpoint but they did not actually build their modules on it, nor did they mandate or even specifically point out how many of each rest their should be.

The reason casters walk around like gods is that many dms throw in fights just to waste resources from casters but if they don’t take the bait and just cantrips things to death and let martials handle the minions, they just wait and nuke down the main threat in about two rounds.

Casters mandate when long rests are taken.
The dm either pushes it and kills them and the game dies or let’s them do it and they are gods.

Because of whack a mole healing and things like shield that spit in the face of blind accuracy, a clothie with crap con does not have to worry about things, just throw out spells and don’t care about defense. What is the worst that can happen? You get knocked down and the cleric/ranger/Druid spends a first level slot to get you back up and fighting.

I have never once seen a character die in 5e past level 2 unless it was a TPK.

Death saves are a moronic idea without negative HP looming over you.

This edition does not promote resource management, it promotes glass cannons and 10 min adventuring days.

If you are at level 8, playing a wizard with 12 con and have 3 hp left and a giant smashes you with a great club the size of a tree for 40 hp, you should outright be dead, not just unconscious and that heal for 6hp the cleric did should definitely not get you right back in the fight.

The power discrepancy is supposed to be mitigated because of the caster’s frailty and limited resources, but the. They let people cast in any armor they are trained in with no penalty or negative, removed opportunity attack for casting completely, made a feat to patch it but the feat is worthless against anyone with half a brain, made it almost impossible to outright kill a PC in one shot past level 2 or 3, and made a first level spell that gives you an ac bonus equivalent of a legendary magic shield that lasts a whole round, made feats optional, introduced new spells and broken backgrounds to give casters more and better options every book while martials got... nothing.

Also because feats are set up they way they are and are optional in the first place they never have to come up with new ones.

Every new spell, when it comes out is a new tool automatically given to casters as soon as they pick it when they level up or even just long rest.

The only way martials get something new is if it is available to everyone.