Elemental Cantrip synergies and weaknesses

[Segev]

Shape water and mold earth get a lot of laud. Control flames has some nice synergy with druidcraft and prestidigitation in that those two can start fires and control flames can manipulate and spread them. Control flames also has twice the range of druidcraft and six time sthe range of prestidigitation, so spreading fire can happen further than starting it. Control flames is also somatic-only, so you can do it silently, unlike the igniting spells.

Gust, on the other hand, is not very good. I am disappointed by it each time I read it, and somewhat baffled by the arbitrarily variable force it exerts on creatures vs. objects. A creature of any size must succeed on a Strength check or be pushed 5 feet; an object can't weigh more than 5 pounds or it doesn't move (though 5 lbs. or less and it moves 10 feet). And this is only away from you; you're blowing outwards; you can't move it in arbitrary directions the way you can the water from shape water.

You even, potentially, are over-replicating things if you have gust and druidcraft. This is one of the points I'd like to discuss: is there anything the sensory effect line in gust can do that druidcraft's sensory effect line can't? The examples in gust are almost all duplicated in druidcraft; only the "ripple clothing" and "slam shutters shut" one is unique (and the second is a variation from thaumaturgy). Clearly the druidcraft one is supposed to be related to nature (animals, plants, smells) while the gust one is related to air motion. Can't even snuff out a candle with it, though, unless that's a "harmless sensory effect."

Gust, mold earth, and shape water all share druidcraft and minor image's 30 ft. range. Control flames is a whopping 60 ft., which may or may not be interesting (like I said, it does make the "spread flames" thing more useful even when one knows prestidigitation or druidcraft).

I'd be interested in hearing ideas for how to use the harmless sensory effects of gust.

The synergy that made me want to start this thread is actually mold earth with gust. The one thing gust does that's of interest without serious creativity and potential DM leniency is shove creatures 5 ft. There are, admittedly, better ways to do this, but few are just one cantrip. (Eldrich blast can get the Repelling Blast Invocation, for instance.)

With mold earth, you can excavate a pit, and then use gust to shove people into them. But even as I feel a bit clever for thinking of this reasonably obvious combination, the fact that it's 5 ft. for gust and takes two rounds to set up points out some obvious problems. Add in that, again, it's only away from you, and you can't even set it up from any angle.

"Spreading" fire with control flames is an interesting term, too. If there's something between where it is and where you spread it to, it won't deal damage unless they stand in it (and then it's just whatever environmental damage standing in normal fire does). If gust could affect multile light-weight objects, it might be useful for scattering some kindling, but sadly it's actively worse than mage hand just picking up and placing individual logs for this purpose.

More pit-trap shenanigans: You can excavate the pit with mold earth, then shape and harden to ice some spikes at the bottom of it with shape water. And, I suppose, shove someone in with gust, if they deign to stand between you and the pit and are standing next to it.


Shoving them over or into difficult terrain can at least be a way to limit their movement options.

Comboing mold earth with itself: a pit with walls that are difficult terrain makes climbing even slower.

Using the color-changing effects of control flames and shape water together with the animated simple shapes ability of shape water, you could potentially make an area look like it's covered in fire when only some of it is really fire and other parts are just dancing water. Get the water to catch the light of the flames, which are colored so they match the color reflecting out of the water.

Using mold earth to make colors and shapes that appear to be reasonably-convincing "tunnel entrances" where there are none, and then using minor illusion to cover an actual hall or corridor with a near-identical "false entrance" could be amusing. You can only manage three of these (two mold earth, one minor illusion), though. Four, if you color and freeze an ice sculpture over one more section of wall with shape water.


Hmh. I started this because I thought I had more ideas, but they either fled me before I got to them or they turn out not really to work. The "big" one is shoving people into pits with gust, and that seems pretty lackluster. It's like having the worst parts of mage hand and druidcraft; is shoving somebody 5 feet, specifically away from you, powerful enough to warrant the cantrip on its own? Nothing else it does is unique enough to be thought of.

[JackPhoenix]

Don't dismiss Control Flames' ability to extinguish fires. Our group declared that spell is mandatory for the Fireball-happy wizard.

[col_impact]

Command "Drop".

Enemy drops sword or Staff of the Magi on their turn.

Gust the sword/staff 10" away.


(Or cranked Heat Metal!)

Unseen Servant works too. You can even Gust and Unseen Servant on the same turn. Servant picks it up and moves it 15".

And then your familiar grabs it and flies into the next room.

[Segev]

Don't dismiss Control Flames' ability to extinguish fires. Our group declared that spell is mandatory for the Fireball-happy wizard.

True, and between druidcraft’s weather prediction and control flames’s extinguishing, a character with both would be a godsend on a ship! And a nightmare for an enemy ship. Start a fire and spread it rapidly.

Could shape water keep water from soaking into kindling it was moving about with its animated shapes? How well could it control oil, which won’t mix into the water but also isn’t water so can’t be directly shaped by the cantrip?

On its own, control flames is a really good light spell just by doubling the radius of your torch or lantern. Makes it bigger than the light cantrip.

Command "Drop".

Enemy drops sword or Staff of the Magi on their turn.

Gust the sword/staff 10" away.


(Or cranked Heat Metal!)

Unseen Servant works too. You can even Gust and Unseen Servant on the same turn.

And then your familiar grabs it and flies into the next room.

Mage hand does the same thing as gust, here. With a measly bonus action, at that.

[col_impact]

Mage hand is action. Unseen Servant is bonus action.

Gust can push which is forced movement on spike growth or hazard like Create Bonfire. Get Thornwhip and you can push pull through a hazard.

Gush is better. It is potentially an attack or force into hazard. Push a melee shy caster into melee.

Plus you get to animate the wind itself in a 3d surround sound oculus system.

[Xihirli]

Looking at the casting time of each, they’re both actions. What you’re referring to, commanding an already cast Mage Hand or Unseen Servant, is a bonus action in both cases.

[col_impact]

Looking at the casting time of each, they’re both actions. What you’re referring to, commanding an already cast Mage Hand or Unseen Servant, is a bonus action in both cases.

You have that wrong. It is an action to control Mage Hand.

[Segev]

Mage hand is action. Unseen Servant is bonus action.

Looking at the casting time of each, they’re both actions. What you’re referring to, commanding an already cast Mage Hand or Unseen Servant, is a bonus action in both cases.

Actually, I was wrong. It's a bonus action to command the unseen servant to move up to 15 ft. and interact with an object. It's an action to move the mage hand up to 30 ft. and "manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial." (I will assume those are examples, not exhaustive, because "pour the contents from a vial" is awfully specific.)

The unseen servant can lift and carry up to 30 lbs. (2 Str x15 lbs/Str); the mage hand only 10. The unseen servant appears on the ground, but it neither says it can nor cannot float an arbitrary height up. Mage hand explicitly is flying. So there are gives and takes for each. And at least one point depends on DM ruling on whether the unseen servant can fly. Or even walk over liquids rather than splash into them.

Regardless, the mage hand is able to do what gust can do in terms of removing dropped objects from the reach of their owners, and doing it better. Unseen servant might, if it's within 15 feet of the object. ...though a very strict reading might forbid the unseen servant or the mage hand from both moving to, interacting with, and moving away with the object, while, yes, gust will work on an object up to 5 lbs to move it immediately 10 feet directly away from the caster.

Gust can push which is forced movement on spike growth or hazard like Create Bonfire. Get Thornwhip and you can push pull through a hazard.

Not an invalid point.... Though it's only 5 ft. forced movement with gust, and a strength save. Thorn whip is 10 feet and no save if it hits.

Gush is better. It is potentially an attack or force into hazard. Plus you get to animate the wind itself in a 3d surround sound oculus system.

I was going to disagree based on it only affecting a five foot cube, then I reconsidered because nowhere does the spell mention a five foot cube. But then again, it says you create the effect at "a point you can see." A "point" is pretty small.

But it also is largely meaningless as a game term, since the spell expresses specific targeting rules for 2 of the 3 effects.

So maybe one of the ways gust is better than druidcraft et al for "harmless sensory effects" is that, like thaumaturgy's two specific effects (tremors in the ground and opening and shutting doors and shutters), it doesn't have any area limit. You can make the harmless air-based sensory effect fill the 30 ft. radius around you. Maybe. If not, your DM has to rule how much space around the "point" you're selecting you can affect.

A "harmless sensory effect involving the air" might include a strong down-gust in the whole area, clearing the air of dust or the like. You probably couldn't get away with the opposite (kicking dust up), at least not sufficient to obscure vision, as that's a game effect not expressly permitted, but then, the coloration and opacity of water shaped into walls can make for some obscurement.

If only the rules on moving creatures and objects weren't restricted to "Away from you."

[col_impact]

Actually, I was wrong. It's a bonus action to command the unseen servant to move up to 15 ft. and interact with an object. It's an action to move the mage hand up to 30 ft. and "manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial." (I will assume those are examples, not exhaustive, because "pour the contents from a vial" is awfully specific.)

The unseen servant can lift and carry up to 30 lbs. (2 Str x15 lbs/Str); the mage hand only 10. The unseen servant appears on the ground, but it neither says it can nor cannot float an arbitrary height up. Mage hand explicitly is flying. So there are gives and takes for each. And at least one point depends on DM ruling on whether the unseen servant can fly. Or even walk over liquids rather than splash into them.

Regardless, the mage hand is able to do what gust can do in terms of removing dropped objects from the reach of their owners, and doing it better. Unseen servant might, if it's within 15 feet of the object. ...though a very strict reading might forbid the unseen servant or the mage hand from both moving to, interacting with, and moving away with the object, while, yes, gust will work on an object up to 5 lbs to move it immediately 10 feet directly away from the caster.


Not an invalid point.... Though it's only 5 ft. forced movement with gust, and a strength save. Thorn whip is 10 feet and no save if it hits.

I was going to disagree based on it only affecting a five foot cube, then I reconsidered because nowhere does the spell mention a five foot cube. But then again, it says you create the effect at "a point you can see." A "point" is pretty small.

But it also is largely meaningless as a game term, since the spell expresses specific targeting rules for 2 of the 3 effects.

So maybe one of the ways gust is better than druidcraft et al for "harmless sensory effects" is that, like thaumaturgy's two specific effects (tremors in the ground and opening and shutting doors and shutters), it doesn't have any area limit. You can make the harmless air-based sensory effect fill the 30 ft. radius around you. Maybe. If not, your DM has to rule how much space around the "point" you're selecting you can affect.

A "harmless sensory effect involving the air" might include a strong down-gust in the whole area, clearing the air of dust or the like. You probably couldn't get away with the opposite (kicking dust up), at least not sufficient to obscure vision, as that's a game effect not expressly permitted, but then, the coloration and opacity of water shaped into walls can make for some obscurement.

If only the rules on moving creatures and objects weren't restricted to "Away from you."

You can use Misty Step or speedster build to make "away from you" not much of a restriction. Anytime an enemy is on the edge of a hazard you can position a ranged 5 foot push.

[Segev]

You can use Misty Step or speedster build to make "away from you" not much of a restriction. Anytime an enemy is on the edge of a hazard you can position a ranged 5 foot push.

Sure. But it’s still frustrating and less cool, and it means “pull to you” isn’t an option.

For example, picturing a wind rustling through an office, I pictured it picking up papers and stacking them in the caster’s hands. But that’s pushing multiple objects and pushing them to the caster, so it can’t be done because of the rules on how pushing objects with it works.

[col_impact]

Forced movement is just really useful. Combine it with Unseen Servant and you have a ton of utility.