Why the hate on hexblade?

[patchyman]

Hexblade's fluff in itself isn't all that bad. The trope of a "hexed" sword is older than D&D.

For example, Excalibur (a centuries-old-legend), Stormbringer (fictional sword from 1961, introduced over a decade before D&D was even invented), and Tyrfing (google it), to name a few, could all be Hexblades, which might mean a cursed blade just as much as a magic blade.

The theme works in a vaccuum, it just doesn’t work in D&D where most characters will be rocking magical swords and the temptation for the warlock will be to replace his pact blade with a +2 sword the moment one becomes available.

[Willie the Duck]

Question for those who hate Hexblade: Is one level of Hexblade stronger than one level of Cleric?
I'd say No. It's not.
So why do we hate it?

Specific to the comparison to Cleric, I think that a Cleric is a wisdom class and a warlock is a charisma class is part of the issue. By the time the Hexblade came along, people had already spent years enduring <often half-elven, another vaguely over-tuned thing*> sorcadins, pallocks, sorlocks (including, especially in white room discussions like on these boards, the coffeelock), the original Unearthed Arcana Favored Soul sorcerer, occasionally a lore bard thrown in as well... honestly the pump was primed for hate on hexblade before it hit the page.
*and yuan ti, drow, tieflings and aasimar.

That said, I think a hexblade dip is stronger than one level of cleric for the things it is going to be added to. A paladin never having to raise their Str or Dex because they are going for a sword&board build and thus one level of hexblade and putting everything in charisma is very very tasty. One level of cleric... well it certainly helps the AC of a wizard willing to take 13+ in Wisdom (plus any Str requirements the armor has, or reduce speed) and delay getting Xth-level spells (but not slots) by one level. Other than that, there are certainly ways to use them, and the individual perks are fairly decent, but nothing stands out as having quite the same level of synergy as hexblade does with the already well-regarded charisma-based classes.

So, yeah, I do think hexblade dipping* is a bit stronger for the situations where it would happen, but also I think there's been a bit of 'oh goodie, another way that charisma-based classes and races will dominate the discussion, if not the game' going on in the cultural reaction to the thing. If it had come out after a slew of Wisdom-based things had just taken off, yes perhaps cleric dips would have gotten the backdraft instead.
*and honestly, single class hexblade is no problem, fluff and 'they should have fixed pact of blade instead' issues notwithstanding.

[Segev]

So, yeah, I do think hexblade dipping* is a bit stronger for the situations where it would happen, but also I think there's been a bit of 'oh goodie, another way that charisma-based classes and races will dominate the discussion, if not the game' going on in the cultural reaction to the thing. If it had come out after a slew of Wisdom-based things had just taken off, yes perhaps cleric dips would have gotten the backdraft instead.
*and honestly, single class hexblade is no problem, fluff and 'they should have fixed pact of blade instead' issues notwithstanding.

I...mostly agree. But I want to say that, while I share the fluff and 'they should have fixed pact of the blade instead' point of view, I have one additional problem with the Hexblade:

The cost paid for it is a more interesting Patron. Hexblade is not just fluff-annoying, it's mechanically rather uninteresting. Not only is it somewhat unfocused, especially past level 1, but it's best focused features are, basically, "be a gish." Patrons have some really interesting toys. And you're giving those up for...charisma to attacks and the ability to pick a victim to hurt a lot.

It's like you're being told you can play The Most Interesting Man In The World, or you can play Deathstab Killmurder. The former is far less potent in combat or any other mechanical way, but the latter doesn't do anything interesting other than kill things very, very well. But, since killing things is the primary pillar of the game....

(I am exaggerating the differences here, yes. The analogy holds, however.)

[Sception]

I'm not sure I agree with the unfocused comment. If you remove hex warrior, you still have a pretty decent set of mechanics revolving around a theme of curses. This obviously centers on the hexblade's curse feature and later level improvements to it, but even the specter can still be taken as a sort of curse or hex compelling a victim to serve you after death. Taken apart from the half baked canon fluff, this strikes me as an interesting and reasonable set of patron mechanics. More offensive and combat focused than some others, but in exchange with also limited per rest abilities where other more subtle or utility oriented patrons offer more frequent or even at will abilities. Either do the work that the writers didn't do of fleshing out hexblades into actual entities that make sense as patrons, or replace them wholesale with another curse & ghost themed patron (actual ghosts, shinigami, grim reapers, 4e style sorrowsworn, night hags might work for a curse themed warlock subclass using the hexblade's mechanics) and things work more or less fine. Again, apart from hex warrior being a fix to pact of the blade that should be part of pact of the blade, not stapled onto some arbitrary patron's existing 1st level features.

Even as is, though, it's not a big problem worth getting bent out of shape over. For all the cha synergy, warlock levels don't advance regular caster levels, and delaying access to higher level spell slots is a real cost that often gets glossed over. Wizards are still the strongest spellcasters by a good margin, and clerics aren't looking at sorlocks with especial envy either, with or without hexblade available. Paladins are strong and multiclass well with sorcerers, bards, and warlocks, hexblades especially, but even with a hex dip they aren't exactly blowing barbarians or battlemasters out of the water in terms of melee damage or tanking ability, especially given just how much martial classes get out of feats, and just how much pressure there is on a hexadin's ASIs, even with hex warrior saving them the need to raise two offensive stats simultaneously, something most other classes don't have to worry about anyway, so it's not exactly like hexadin is getting away with anything the vast bulk of classes don't already have by default.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Fiend's blasting comes from the expanded spell list, so if you want to throw Fireballs then you have to go Fiend and many people consider Fireball the #1 blasting spell. However since you are limited in spell slots I tend to find it better to not use my spell slots of things like Fireball. But this is probably dependent on adventure day length, if you can short rest when you run out of spell slots then I can see Fiend being a prime blaster, but that hasn't been my experience.

Okay, then what makes them worse than Archfey, Celestial, GOO or Undying as a blaster? Those subclasses don't get better blasting in their expanded spell list and none of their abilities offer them additional damage. Fiend has a capstone feature that does damage equivalent to a high level spell (7+ which is something typically limited to per long rest anyway) of a good type for no save while also taking the target out of the combat for a turn.

I'm glad you noted at least that this is based on your own experience. Short rest classes don't always shine in everyones games, it's a longstanding and long debated problem, but our experiences don't change that on paper Fiend and Hexblade are only competing with each other for top blaster Warlock and Hexblade offers a lot more early than Fiend does.

[Sorinth]

Okay, then what makes them worse than Archfey, Celestial, GOO or Undying as a blaster? Those subclasses don't get better blasting in their expanded spell list and none of their abilities offer them additional damage. Fiend has a capstone feature that does damage equivalent to a high level spell (7+ which is something typically limited to per long rest anyway) of a good type for no save while also taking the target out of the combat for a turn.

I'm glad you noted at least that this is based on your own experience. Short rest classes don't always shine in everyones games, it's a longstanding and long debated problem, but our experiences don't change that on paper Fiend and Hexblade are only competing with each other for top blaster Warlock and Hexblade offers a lot more early than Fiend does.

In the post you quoted I actually answered that in the section you cut out.

It's not that they do more damage, it's that they get abilities that are more useful overall. Fey Presence + Misty Escape is very good for a blaster because creatures can and do get past the tank and attack the back lines. Being able to escape from that is a lot more useful then having a better AC. The others generally offer some versatility which again I find to me more useful to a blaster overall then doing marginally more damage.

And for the record it's not like I'm saying some Patrons are good/bad for a blaster. They are pretty much equivalent but I'd give a slight edge for some over others.

[ad_hoc]

They uniquely aren't.

As the only ranged weapon without the ammunition property, you can use them to make melee attacks without any penalties whatsoever.


Did a quick dive on these rules in another thread, and I was under the same mistaken impression until I sat down and read through all the relevant tags for darts. Unless there was later errata.

They are quite marvelous little exceptions.

They are improvised weapons when used in melee.

Pg 148 under heading: Improvised Weapons - "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack...it deals 1d4 damage."

The implication is that it is an improvised weapon as it falls under the rules listed in the heading 'improvised weapons'. Just because the Ammunition property makes those weapons improvised when used for melee attacks does not mean that other weapons aren't improvised weapons when used for purposes they are not designed for.

One exception does not limit other exceptions.

Even if they weren't improvised weapons, daggers are simply superior as they have the same qualities but are both light and able to be used with strength.

[Aimeryan]

I do think mechanically hexblade gives too much at level 1, mostly because it's patching an issue with pact of the blade with 'hex warrior', and that patch doesn't replace anything, it's just pasted on top of what is otherwise a fully functional warlock patron. Take hex warrior out of hexblade, paste is into pact of the blade, and things work better, though level 1 to 2 of pure hexblade gets rather awkward.

What most people seem to object to is the supposed 'Sadness' that it allows for cha classes and that I don't get. First of all, it's only offensive sadness, and almost all classes are offensively SAD by default. The champion fighter uses Strength for both their melee attacks and the save DCs of their maneuvers. Wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and blasty warlocks use the same casting stats for theor cantrip spell attacks and their spell save DCs. Rogues use Dex for all their attacks, Barbarians use strength for everything, etc.

The only exceptions are monks and half or third casters, and it's very easy to make the argument that these exceptions are the problems. Especially since even if you fix the offensive MADness of these classes, they still need multiple stats for defence.

A hexblade still needs 14 dex for medium armor for their AC, or 15 strength for heavy armor if they have heavy armor proficiency. They still need constitution, both as a melee combatant who needs more HP than a back line archer or spell slinger and as a caster who needs to pass concentration saves or lose their best spells. Arguably the only classes with as much dependance on Constitution are clerics, paladins, and the exceptionally rare barbarian who actually tries to fight unarmored.

In this sense, a hexblade - including paladins & melee bards who dip hexblade - are still significantly less SAD than, say, a fighter or rogue, who's singular offensive stats are also used for their AC.


My point is that yeah, hexblade is awkward and overly front loaded, and tacking a fix to a third level pact boon onto the first level features of what is otherwise a fully functional patron independent of that patch was a bad idea. But if you're worried about the whole SADness thing, you really shouldn't.


The biggest problem with hexblade is the same as with bladesinger and valor bard and war cleric, and that's the issue that a subclass splashing a bit of melee into a full caster class just does not work aa well as the reverse. A little bit of casting adds a ton of versatility to a melee class, while a little bit of swording adds next to nothing to a full caster, who's at will attacks are already well covered by scaling cantrips which can be safely cast from a distance, and you instead just end up with a caster who gets to save spell slots on defensive spells because they have better default AC due to extra armor proficiencies & other AC features.

Hexblade, along with pact of the blade, should have been a separate half-pact-caster from the start, basically. WotC's allergy to adding new classes and insistance on trying to cram too many conceptual and mechanical concepts into the too-tight confines of a subclass, then shove those subclasses up under the skirts of too few existing classes is the real problem with hexblade, and just banning hexblade doesn't get rid of that problem, because its frustrating effects can be felt all over 5e.

Pretty strongly agree with near everything Malisteen says here; the SAD part just fixes an issue the gish classes have that other classes don't have and thus I don't see it as an issue but a solution. Some magic items do the same - gauntlets of ogre power, for example, allows a Paladin to focus mainly on just Cha and Con. Meanwhile, the Wiz already focuses mainly on just Int and Con; the Fighter already focuses mainly on just Str and Con; the Rogue already focuses mainly on just Dex and Con; etc. Being MAD by default and using Hexblade to become SAD just brings them up to the same baseline as the SAD classes (except, it even cost them a level to do so).

The main issues as I see it are:

:: Shield spell and the short rest slots to spam this useful non-scaling spell by taking a one level dip not offered by the other patrons (Archfey's Faerie Fire and GOO's Tasha's being the exception). I'm not sure I would say the dip is the problem here; getting something out of a dip is sort of the point. The issue is largely most of the other patrons not offering something similar.

:: The Medium Armour and Shield proficiency without needing to be dedicated to melee - it makes sense to have this to make up for having to be in melee (all other melee classes have this or equivalent), however, Hexblade can be taken and then still go full caster. If Hexblade is meant to shore up melee warlocks then there needs to be some penalty to not using melee while being a hexblade - perhaps prohibit the Agonising Blast invocation from being taken by Hexblades. At least starting as a Fighter to get the proficiencies has a level cost.

:: Hexblade's Curse being so much better than the other patrons' equivalents - not really more to say here; needs balancing with other patrons. Could be changed for something weaker.

Again, agree with Malisteen that the melee warlock should really just have been another class.

[Bundin]

*snip*

Hexblade, along with pact of the blade, should have been a separate half-pact-caster from the start, basically. WotC's allergy to adding new classes and insistance on trying to cram too many conceptual and mechanical concepts into the too-tight confines of a subclass, then shove those subclasses up under the skirts of too few existing classes is the real problem with hexblade, and just banning hexblade doesn't get rid of that problem, because its frustrating effects can be felt all over 5e.

This sums up my main issue with 5e in general. Too often, they're hammering a square peg into a round hole, just because they can't be bothered to punch more holes. Favored Soul is another example of 'shouldn't exist as a subclass' (whether or not it should exist as a class is another discussion).

[Witty Username]

First off, I do not hate the hexblade. I like the hexblade, I do not think the hexblade is overpowered in comparison to other classes. So I am making some assumptions as to what people are reacting to.

The big thing worth pointing out is that the hexblade gets more than all the other subclasses at level 1, and about the same as they progress up/down the warlock tree. This means that often ones first question when building a warlock is 'why am I not going hexblade'. It also has as part of this problem is that the medium armor and shields is something basically any build of warlock can appreciate.

To compare and contrast, looking at the bard. Valor gets the combat gear package and the lore bard gets three additional skills, under bonus proficiencies and this has a symmetry that the warlock patrons do not have with the hexblade. the Xanathar's bards fit this model somewhat, getting additional abilities instead but they get roughly the same number of things.

This also can lead into the cha thing, warlock gets the cha to atk/dmg on weapons which no other cha caster gets, and people don't like that (or they take a level in hexblade and never look back). This admittedly is a minor problem for more martially minded casters that are not hexblade, but that is the hexblade being good at what it is supposed to be good at isn't it? And most characters will not notice a difference until 8th level or so when the primary stat is most likely going to start be pushed to the limit, if the game is using feats.

Personally, I think that this is because the warlock patrons other than hexblade have trouble keeping up, and could use some buffs or additional options to be more of a draw.

[Man_Over_Game]

That said, I think a hexblade dip is stronger than one level of cleric for the things it is going to be added to. A paladin never having to raise their Str or Dex because they are going for a sword&board build and thus one level of hexblade and putting everything in charisma is very very tasty. One level of cleric... well it certainly helps the AC of a wizard willing to take 13+ in Wisdom (plus any Str requirements the armor has, or reduce speed) and delay getting Xth-level spells (but not slots) by one level. Other than that, there are certainly ways to use them, and the individual perks are fairly decent, but nothing stands out as having quite the same level of synergy as hexblade does with the already well-regarded charisma-based classes.

I should have clarified, but I meant that targeted towards the Heavy Armor-type Clerics. Being able to get Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiencies for very little investment is quite a boon.

Put another way, Hexblades are powerful for Paladins, but would a Paladin be willing to give up Heavy Armor for Cha-based weapons? I wouldn't think so. Heavy Armor is great because it allows you to bump your AC to the maximum without hardly any additional work, and anyone who cares about that really sees it pay off. I believe the only reason a Paladin can afford to pick up Cha-based attacking is due to the fact that they have Heavy Armor, and otherwise wouldn't make that investment (since they'll be needing to bump Dex too much to divert into Cha very much).

That's what Cleric affords you. Heck, you can get most of the same benefits as the Hexblade through the Nature Cleric by just picking up Shilellagh as your cantrip.


I think the reason tables like the Nature Cleric, but hate the Hexblade, is because the Nature Cleric still pushes towards a theme. It spends resources and power creep on things that enrich the table. Despite having a number of powerful benefits at the start, those do not define the Nature Cleric as a whole.

The same cannot be said of the Hexblade. It does combat and cheapens the game, starting at level 1. It continues to do that. And then continues to do that still. At no point does it do anything that doesn't come off as selfish or bland. It's for the "I want to deal lots of damage!" kind of players, without really encouraging any kind of teamwork or roleplaying.

Comparing the Cleric spell list vs. the Warlock spell list tells a similar story.

Fact is, we don't look forward to those kinds of players. They do their thing for themselves, and don't usually reciprocate any effort or energy the other players or narrative aspects spend on them. Hexblade is that player.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have done those things, but it's the fact that it's all that it does means it doesn't really add anything to most tables.

What jumps to my head is "Well, now that we have someone who's hyperfocused on damage, I guess I have to make combats a little bit harder and provide less story".
It's the Sharpshooter Samurai, the Draconic Elemental Adept Sorcerer, the Evocation Wizard with a dip of Fighter for armor with Lucky. It's all of the things that shift the game towards a single player's enjoyment instead of the table's, and it does so without any apology.

Even Samurai adds some noncombat stuff for Wisdom. Even the Draconic Sorcerer speaks dragon and flies. Even Evokers get the power to keep their friends safe as their primary feature.

But the Hexblade is "When I do damage, I get stuff". "When the things I am trying to kill dies..." "When I get the finishing blow..." "When I am attacked".

---------------------------------------------

It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

[Aimeryan]

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It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

Yeah, no helping you guys with something like Charisma to saves (which I can afford to pump now!), or heals to get you up when you go down, or a melee combatant providing zone of control in front of your squishy behind, oh, wait...

A Paladin is plenty supportive - the Hexblade dip allows that even more so by dropping the Strength focus. A Sorcadin with a Hexblade dip even more so with metamagic like Twin for buffs and Divine Soul subclass potential. The Hexblade level itself may not be supportive, but it pairs with classes that are and enables them to not be so MAD (which is what can force selfish play).

A pure class Hexblade is naturally going to be selfish - its kind of the Warlock theme for the most part. A lack of spell slots at any point and a small spells known list means utility and support tends to get chucked by the wayside. That is more the class than the subclass, though. Arguably, at least Hexblade Warlocsk can act as a melee damage soaker for others, while their fellow Warlocks are sat at the back.

[Sorinth]

The same cannot be said of the Hexblade. It does combat and cheapens the game, starting at level 1. It continues to do that. And then continues to do that still. At no point does it do anything that doesn't come off as selfish or bland. It's for the "I want to deal lots of damage!" kind of players, without really encouraging any kind of teamwork or roleplaying.

Comparing the Cleric spell list vs. the Warlock spell list tells a similar story.

Fact is, we don't look forward to those kinds of players. They do their thing for themselves, and don't usually reciprocate any effort or energy the other players or narrative aspects spend on them. Hexblade is that player.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have done those things, but it's the fact that it's all that it does means it doesn't really add anything to most tables.

What jumps to my head is "Well, now that we have someone who's hyperfocused on damage, I guess I have to make combats a little bit harder and provide less story".
It's the Sharpshooter Samurai, the Draconic Elemental Adept Sorcerer, the Evocation Wizard with a dip of Fighter for armor with Lucky. It's all of the things that shift the game towards a single player's enjoyment instead of the table's, and it does so without any apology.

Even Samurai adds some noncombat stuff for Wisdom. Even the Draconic Sorcerer speaks dragon and flies. Even Evokers get the power to keep their friends safe as their primary feature.

But the Hexblade is "When I do damage, I get stuff". "When the things I am trying to kill dies..." "When I get the finishing blow..." "When I am attacked".

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It is the representation of the most selfish and boring person at the table. Which is why we hate it.

It's possible that selfish players are more attracted to Hexblade then other classes but if you have a selfish player at the table I'm pretty sure you are going to hate them regardless of what class they take.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, no helping you guys with something like Charisma to saves (which I can afford to pump now!), or heals to get you up when you go down, or a melee combatant providing zone of control in front of your squishy behind, oh, wait...

A Hexadin is plenty supportive - the Hexblade dip allows that even more so by dropping the Strength focus. A Sorcadin with a Hexblade dip even more so. The Hexblade level itself may not be supportive, but it pairs with classes that are and enables them to not be so MAD (which is what can force selfish play).

Let's be real, here. A Sorcerer is not taking a level into Hexblade because he's considering how to best protect his team. He wants that juicy, juicy damage.

Paladins are definitely supportive enough on their own. I'm not sure if they need Hexblade to do that, but I do agree that they do it better.

My concern is, though, is that you're defending the first level of Hexblade as to why it's acceptable content that adds to the table. And your Paladin example is very reasonable.

However, looking at the rest of the Hexblade tells a different story. One of the first things I said in that last post was about how similar the first level of Hexblade is to the Nature Cleric's, but we like the Nature Cleric because it develops into supporting the team. But now compare that to the Hexblade, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

And while I do see that Paladins have the potential for supportive play, they also have the means of selling out every supporting feature they have into benefits for themselves, through Divine Smite (which is why I hate it so much). Players should not have to choose between helping themselves or helping one another (which is why the Divination Wizard refunds you spell slots when you support your team with scouting spells).

And considering the Hexblade, as a whole, is a selfish subclass, Paladins who dip into Hexblade don't naturally strike me as the "helping" kind of Paladin. Call me paranoid, but I'm expecting you to dump 90% of your spell slots on damage if you're a Paladin with a Hexblade level, with the other 10% being Shield, but I'll look forward to when you prove me wrong.

It's possible that selfish players are more attracted to Hexblade then other classes but if you have a selfish player at the table I'm pretty sure you are going to hate them regardless of what class they take.

It's not even that. The addition of the Hexblade implies that a selfish playstyle is accepted. Intentional. "That's not a bug, that's a feature". Now a selfish player doesn't really need a reason to do anything other than be selfish...because he can't.

It leaves a bad taste in our mouth to accept that something with no theme, no party support, no noncombat support, dramatic changes to combat mechanics and builds for little effort, was accepted.

Even Totem Barbarians take a "ribbon" at level 6.

To me, it gives the idea that we should be fine if our players are murderhobos. After all, what else does being a Hexblade help you be?

[Sorinth]

It's not even that. The addition of the Hexblade implies that a selfish playstyle is accepted. Intentional. "That's not a bug, that's a feature". Now a selfish player doesn't really need a reason to do anything other than be selfish...because he can't.

It leaves a bad taste in our mouth to accept that something with no theme, no party support, no noncombat support, dramatic changes to combat mechanics and builds for little effort, was accepted.

Even Totem Barbarians take a "ribbon" at level 6.

To me, it gives the idea that we should be fine if our players are murderhobos. After all, what else does being a Hexblade help you be?

So what team friendly abilities does Champion Fighter get? If they don't pick Protection fighting style which is pretty terrible to begin with then every other ability is all about them and doing more damage in combat. Most Eldritch Knights aren't picking spells that buff teammates they are taking selfish spells. What does Open Hand monk get that isn't selfish?

[Pex]

In the post you quoted I actually answered that in the section you cut out.

It's not that they do more damage, it's that they get abilities that are more useful overall. Fey Presence + Misty Escape is very good for a blaster because creatures can and do get past the tank and attack the back lines. Being able to escape from that is a lot more useful then having a better AC. The others generally offer some versatility which again I find to me more useful to a blaster overall then doing marginally more damage.

And for the record it's not like I'm saying some Patrons are good/bad for a blaster. They are pretty much equivalent but I'd give a slight edge for some over others.

Those are limited uses and don't help when the warlock is attacked by range weapons and spells. The armor and shield are always there and help not being hit from afar. When the archfey uses his abilities, he can still be attacked in melee in another round before he has a chance to rest. The armor and shield hexblade will always have his AC. Consistent defense is a fair trade to one moment of awesome defense then mediocre to none until next rest.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The only thing I really dislike about Hexblades are conversations about the Hexblade and how ubiquitous it is.

I don't mean 'threads here on the forums', I mean how everyone, including in person, loves to suggest it for everything. Everybody thinks they're being especially clever when recommending Hexblade dips or multiclassing. I don't mind that they're right about it being a little stronger (if less flexible) than other options, I just get sick of always, always hearing the recommendation. And then I get equally as frustrated when someone mentions the numerical superiority or how you can just ignore the entire flavor of the class/subclass in favor of having the strongest build evar. I'm all for reflavoring, but the way people treat Warlock dips as an expansion pack just rubs me the wrong way.

It's like... yeah, I get it. Numbers don't lie, it's very strong. But it's also very boring and overdone to the absolute limits, and ignoring what little interesting story impact suddenly making a pact might bring just makes you the milkiest of toast.

[Man_Over_Game]

So what team friendly abilities does Champion Fighter get? If they don't pick Protection fighting style which is pretty terrible to begin with then every other ability is all about them and doing more damage in combat. Most Eldritch Knights aren't picking spells that buff teammates they are taking selfish spells. What does Open Hand monk get that isn't selfish?

Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, and an additional Fighting Style (which includes the option of the Protection Fighting Style)

Open Hand's primary feature can push a creature back, knock a creature prone, or remove a creature's reaction. All of these are things that are best utilized with, or around, allies. Otherwise, the Monk can always resort to Step of the Wind or Patient Defense if moving around a target was the actual goal. It's the difference between Shocking Grasp and the Mobile feat. The Sanctuary effect is also hard to use without working with your allies. That's not including the other things Monks get for strictly non-combat stuff, like Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

You are right about Eldritch Knights, as far as what most players do, but the subclass itself opens doors instead of closing them. Using things like Haste or Enlarge/Reduce on yourself are things that your teammates can still react to. Booming Blade is something that generally helps an ally more than yourself. But mostly, it offers most of its benefits as an alternative to attacking, which means that it's actually making you more selfless (since attacking contributes no more for your team than it does yourself). More importantly, though, it's a potential improvement off of the Fighter.


But the Hexblade only encourages attacking (which means fewer control spells), encourages landing finishing blows for yourself, and only provides defensive benefits for yourself.

Comparing it with the EK, EK's choose to be selfish by ignoring all of the features that help them support their team, while the Hexblade actually takes opportunity away from the base Warlock chassis (through enforcing attacks) that would allow the Warlock to support their team while giving nothing of that interactivity back.

It's the same reason I have disdain for Divine Smite. It converts resources that you could have used to interact with, or add interaction for, your team, in exchange for a personal scoreboard. 9 Radiant Damage at a time.

The differences is, even if a Paladin converts every spell slot he can into damage, he still has plenty of other class and subclass features that allies can interact with that he cannot "sell out". The Hexblade, and Warlock, probably couldn't say the same thing.

That last bit is surprisingly relevant.
Warlocks would be amazing non-combat casters (akin to Bards), due to their Short Rest recharging and how Short Rests are more common with fewer encounters, except for the fact that most of the Warlock spells fail to be very effective out of combat. Many invocations are especially powerful for non-combat scenarios, but they directly compete with combat alternatives (and you can survive a failed noncombat encounter).

Compared to other casters, the default Warlock has a lot going against it for noncombat scenarios and interactive effects in battle. The other Patrons add features to mitigate this problem by making the Warlock more well-rounded, while the Hexblade does the opposite. It exacerbates these problems for a casting class that's already considered "a dip class".

[Sorinth]

Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, and an additional Fighting Style (which includes the option of the Protection Fighting Style)

Open Hand's primary feature can push a creature back, knock a creature prone, or remove a creature's reaction. All of these are things that are best utilized with, or around, allies. Otherwise, the Monk can always resort to Step of the Wind or Patient Defense if moving around a target was the actual goal. It's the difference between Shocking Grasp and the Mobile feat. That's not including the other things Monks get for strictly non-combat stuff, like Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

You are right about Eldritch Knights, as far as what most players do, but the subclass itself opens doors instead of closing them. Using things like Haste or Enlarge/Reduce on yourself are things that your teammates can still react to. Booming Blade is something that generally helps an ally more than yourself. But mostly, it offers most of its benefits as an alternative to attacking, which means that it's actually making you more selfless (since attacking contributes no more for your team than it does yourself). More importantly, though, it's a potential improvement off of the Fighter.


But the Hexblade only encourages attacking (which means fewer control spells), encourages landing finishing blows for yourself, and only provides defensive benefits for yourself.

Comparing it with the EK, EK's choose to be selfish by ignoring all of the features that help them support their team, while the Hexblade actually takes opportunity away from the base Warlock chassis (through enforcing attacks) that would allow the Warlock to support their team.

How is Remarkable Athelete not a selfish me, me, me ability? And I'm willing to bet the vast majority of Champions do not take Protection style. Your saying all Hexblade features encourage attacking, yet I fail to see how Remarkable Atheletes offers the Champion another option besides attacking.

How is Open Hand knocking people prone any different from Hexblade using Eldritch Smite to knock people prone? How is Armor of Hexes a selfish feature that only provides defensive benefits for yourself but Patient Defence not? If base class features like Tongues of the Sun and Moon count as providing non selfish play why doesn't Eyes of the Runekeeper count, or any of the host of useful Invocations/Spells Warlock gets?

[Man_Over_Game]

How is Remarkable Athelete not a selfish me, me, me ability? And I'm willing to bet the vast majority of Champions do not take Protection style. Your saying all Hexblade features encourage attacking, yet I fail to see how Remarkable Atheletes offers the Champion another option besides attacking.

How is Open Hand knocking people prone any different from Hexblade using Eldritch Smite to knock people prone? How is Armor of Hexes a selfish feature that only provides defensive benefits for yourself but Patient Defence not? If base class features like Tongues of the Sun and Moon count as providing non selfish play why doesn't Eyes of the Runekeeper count, or any of the host of useful Invocations/Spells Warlock gets?

Remarkable Athlete:
You get half your proficiency to Str/Con/Dex checks that don't already get your proficiency.

It also makes you better at running jumps.

-----

These are things that add to the story. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision a way to use this feature that doesn't involve your teammates or give your teammates something to react to.

My mention on Monk's Patient Defense was meant as a mean to explain why it wouldn't need a clause for removing the target's Reaction or pushing a creature by several feet. These Open Hand features are almost definitely for another player's benefit, or at least provide tactical changes for other players to react to. It's contributing in more than just "damage I deal" and "damage I take".

Lastly, Tongues of the Sun and Moon is a forced feature. You do not get a choice to get it or not, and so you'll always have a tool ready to assist your team.

Fact is, we don't always think about what our team needs, and we have to decide what tools we have long before they're relevant. As a result, players often take more combat benefits than noncombat benefits, because they believe the combat benefits will be more valuable in the future. You don't know if you'll be teleported into the sky, but you always know there'll be a fight.

Because of the fact that features like TotSaM are forced on the player, they hold more weight than a chosen one like Eyes of the Runekeeper, especially if those chosen features compete for a combat option (which invocations often do).

Another way to look at it is the Totem Barbarian. Your level 6 choices force you into something other than combat, which means you now have a guaranteed niche. A use as something other than a murderhobo. Warlock Hexblade has no such clause or defense.



But my main point isn't that Warlocks can't be more than damage-hungry murderhobos, but that Hexblade only ever pushes Warlock further into that trope. Attacks are now more valuable, which pulls your Actions away from casting spells that'd otherwise change the battlefield. The only invocations that build off of Hexblade features are ones that are only ever useful in combat (Cloak of Flies being an odd exception), which means overall fewer noncombat invocations being taken.

I don't think that Eldritch Smite is a bad invocation. However, I notice from the recent Eldritch vs. Divine Smite debate that ES is considered as not being a powerful feature because the Warlock has a difficult time getting Advantage from his own Prone condition...which is a selfish outlook on looking at a condition. As a community, we have selfish outlooks.

I think there needs to be a conscious effort to make players work together and interact with one another (otherwise it'll never happen) and Hexblade directly contradicts that.

[Evaar]

I like the Hexblade.

On its own.

Sure the fluff is vague, but it's very easily reflavored. I actually prefer when a mechanical choice offers a theme rather than nailing down a specific backstory. That expands player agency and ownership of the character, basically by leaving blanks for them to fill in. A Battlemaster Fighter is someone who's good at fighting - it doesn't mean they're specifically a military officer, or a gladiator, or backalley brawler. It can be any of those. So the Hexblade is based around cursing things, and you figure out the rest. That's fine.

The problem is only in its capacity as a dip. I won't belabor that point, as everyone else has explained just how good it is. The only thing I want to point out is that it's the solution to just about every character build question. How can I make this gish work? A hexblade dip. How can I best exploit magic missile? A hexblade dip. How can I get medium armor and shield proficiency? A hexblade dip. How can I get some short rest spell slots for cheap uses of Shield? A hexblade dip. How can I easily expand my crit range? A hexblade dip.

As others said, in a vacuum the Hexblade is fine. It's only because its 1st level abilities work so well to patch gaps in other classes that it's tiresome. Do I want to make a Charisma/Dex medium armor wearing Oath of Heroism Paladin? Yes I do. Will that character be better with a Hexblade dip? Yup, way better. Will I feel lame showing up with a Hexblade/Paladin? Yup. But I might do it anyway, because it's just that much better.

[Sorinth]

@Man_Over_Game

RP wise it's very easy to create a selfless Hexblade and combat wise he's no more selfish then any generic fighter or barbarian.

Here's an example,
One of your ancestors made a pact with the Raven Queen that bound him and all his descendants to the Raven Queen until the Lich is defeated. However your PC doesn't know anything about that, he's from a family of knights and sure he's heard the family stories about how his ancestor fought and was killed by a Lich but that was hundreds of years ago and has no bearing on him. Your PC in every way is your standard Lawful Good Knight who thinks it's his duty to protect the weak and rescue maidens. He has no idea he's a Hexblade and doesn't consciously control his spells/abilities. At level 1 he doesn't even really know he has them, he doesn't know he's Hexblade Cursed someone, he doesn't consciously know he's used Thief of the Five Fates to cast Bane, did he actually cast Shield or did that guy just miss by himself, etc... When he eventually does use flashy spells he has no idea how it happened and is just as surprised as everyone else.

He's a V. Human who starts with Warcaster, uses a Shield and Spear and goes PAM at level 4, maybe eventually Sentinel but probably after maxing Charisma.
Invocations he'd go with False Life, Thief of Five Fates, then the Pact of the Blade ones.
Before he figures out his powers he'll probably have Hex and Hellish Rebuke, Hex he has no idea he even casts, but after a few surprise Hellish Rebuke's he'll start figuring out his powers and eventually start casting spells by choice. He'll use things like Hold Person/Monster, Counterspell, Fear, Banishment and his Thief of Five Fates.

So combat wise he's actually a very team friendly player though he works best if he's not the only front line fighter. RP wise he's your classic Lawful Good Paladin who selfless and will always help the downtrodden.


Like I said, a selfish player is going to create a selfish character regardless of Hexblade. Hexblade itself doesn't force you to play a selfish character.

[Man_Over_Game]

@Man_Over_Game

RP wise it's very easy to create a selfless Hexblade and combat wise he's no more selfish then any generic fighter or barbarian.

Here's an example,
One of your ancestors made a pact with the Raven Queen that bound him and all his descendants to the Raven Queen until the Lich is defeated. However your PC doesn't know anything about that, he's from a family of knights and sure he's heard the family stories about how his ancestor fought and was killed by a Lich but that was hundreds of years ago and has no bearing on him. Your PC in every way is your standard Lawful Good Knight who thinks it's his duty to protect the weak and rescue maidens. He has no idea he's a Hexblade and doesn't consciously control his spells/abilities. At level 1 he doesn't even really know he has them, he doesn't know he's Hexblade Cursed someone, he doesn't consciously know he's used Thief of the Five Fates to cast Bane, did he actually cast Shield or did that guy just miss by himself, etc... When he eventually does use flashy spells he has no idea how it happened and is just as surprised as everyone else.

He's a V. Human who starts with Warcaster, uses a Shield and Spear and goes PAM at level 4, maybe eventually Sentinel but probably after maxing Charisma.
Invocations he'd go with False Life, Thief of Five Fates, then the Pact of the Blade ones.
Before he figures out his powers he'll probably have Hex and Hellish Rebuke, Hex he has no idea he even casts, but after a few surprise Hellish Rebuke's he'll start figuring out his powers and eventually start casting spells by choice. He'll use things like Hold Person/Monster, Counterspell, Fear, Banishment and his Thief of Five Fates.

So combat wise he's actually a very team friendly player though he works best if he's not the only front line fighter. RP wise he's your classic Lawful Good Paladin who selfless and will always help the downtrodden.


Like I said, a selfish player is going to create a selfish character regardless of Hexblade. Hexblade itself doesn't force you to play a selfish character.

In your example, it seems like your theme is in spite of the Hexblade, not because of it. The only benefit Hexblade provides to your ability to support your team is the armor you'd need to utilize things like PAM and Sentinel. Otherwise, everything else you chose could have been picked regardless of Patron, or much even class.

[Sorinth]

Remarkable Athlete:
You get half your proficiency to Str/Con/Dex checks that don't already get your proficiency.

It also makes you better at running jumps.

-----

These are things that add to the story. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision a way to use this feature that doesn't involve your teammates or give your teammates something to react to.

Meanwhile Hexblade has good Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion checks which will certainly add to the story.

My mention on Monk's Patient Defense was meant as a mean to explain why it wouldn't need a clause for removing the target's Reaction or pushing a creature by several feet. These Open Hand features are almost definitely for another player's benefit, or at least provide tactical changes for other players to react to. It's contributing in more than just "damage I deal" and "damage I take".

Hexblade has a lot more options to providing tactical changes for other players to react to. Eldritch Smite, Grasp of Hadar, Repelling Blast.

Lastly, Tongues of the Sun and Moon is a forced feature. You do not get a choice to get it or not, and so you'll always have a tool ready to assist your team.

Fact is, we don't always think about what our team needs, and we have to decide what tools we have long before they're relevant. As a result, players often take more combat benefits than noncombat benefits, because they believe the combat benefits will be more valuable in the future. You don't know if you'll be teleported into the sky, but you always know there'll be a fight.

Because of the fact that features like TotSaM are forced on the player, they hold more weight than a chosen one like Eyes of the Runekeeper, especially if those chosen features compete for a combat option (which invocations often do).

Another way to look at it is the Totem Barbarian. Your level 6 choices force you into something other than combat, which means you now have a guaranteed niche. A use as something other than a murderhobo. Warlock Hexblade has no such clause or defense.

And Hexblade is always going to have a high charisma for those Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion checks. By default out of combat you have the face or secondary face role simply due to having a high charisma.

But my main point isn't that Warlocks can't be more than damage-hungry murderhobos, but that Hexblade only ever pushes Warlock further into that trope. Attacks are now more valuable, which pulls your Actions away from casting spells that'd otherwise change the battlefield. The only invocations that build off of Hexblade features are ones that are only ever useful in combat (Cloak of Flies being an odd exception), which means overall fewer noncombat invocations being taken.

I don't think that Eldritch Smite is a bad invocation. However, I notice from the recent Eldritch vs. Divine Smite debate that ES is considered as not being a powerful feature because the Warlock has a difficult time getting Advantage from his own Prone condition...which is a selfish outlook on looking at a condition. As a community, we have selfish outlooks.

I think there needs to be a conscious effort to make players work together and interact with one another (otherwise it'll never happen) and Hexblade directly contradicts that.

If spending your turn attacking is "selfish" then every fighter is selfish, as are most Rogues. Attacks being more valuable and your not using Eldritch Smite then it means the Hexblade actually has more flexibility to take non combat spells or spells like Dispel Magic / Counterspell. Afterall if I'm spending every round attacking, then I'm not using my spell splots and will always have one ready for that key Counterspell.

[Witty Username]

Remarkable Athlete:
You get half your proficiency to Str/Con/Dex checks that don't already get your proficiency.

It also makes you better at running jumps.

-----

These are things that add to the story. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision a way to use this feature that doesn't involve your teammates or give your teammates something to react to.

So, like a feature that allows you to disregard physical stats in favor of a stat that is normally only used in social encounters without sacrificing your preferred role in combat, like getting cha to attack and damage rolls.

I meant the last/only hexblade I played had persuasion, intimidate, and deception for a reason.

Edit: Hm, ninja'd, my apologies for having server issues.

[DevilMcam]

I don't Think Hexblade is that 'broken'. Sure it has the potential for stupid Shenanigans when multiclassing.
But as a player you can build a perfectly fine Hexblade warlock with plenty of non combat utility, a cool patron and even use the nonsensicals habilities to further the plot of your own Story just as well as you can build a dumb eldritch knight that is only good at fighting and has 0 out of combat abilities.

RPGs are all about player agency and Hexblade gives just that.
The base features of the class are packed with combat stuff, This means you basically never need to pick any combat features anywhere else.
Invocations and warlocks spells are full of interestings things to pick to explore the social and explorations pillars of the game.

when combat arise you are always at 100% efficiency because eldritch blast and your trusty sword never run out of spellslots.

And as far as Power creep goes, well I guess Healing spirit, Zealot barb, and other elven accuracy samurais are about as good at making other options irrelevant than Hexblade

[Man_Over_Game]

Meanwhile Hexblade has good Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion checks which will certainly add to the story....

...If spending your turn attacking is "selfish" then every fighter is selfish, as are most Rogues. Attacks being more valuable and your not using Eldritch Smite then it means the Hexblade actually has more flexibility to take non combat spells or spells like Dispel Magic / Counterspell. Afterall if I'm spending every round attacking, then I'm not using my spell splots and will always have one ready for that key Counterspell.

But none of those are unique to the Hexblade and only optional on the Warlock. Hexblade doesn't give you the ability to stack Charisma, but just using weapons more effectively while you stack Charisma. Weapons are the reason you do it, not Charisma.

What I meant by attacking meant to also include Eldritch Blast in that statement. You're incentivized to make attacks, rather than doing whatever you were going to do otherwise (which may have been Eldritch Blast, but Hexblade makes it much more likely).

You make a fair point about Fighters (Rogues less so, they lose a lot of combat prowess to improve skills), but I think that's more of a bad thing than something that should be an example. Attacking is an uninteresting mechanic that generally isn't adaptive or interactive, and I think it was a mistake to pigeonhole an entire class to that kind of mechanic.

And, honestly, saving a spell slot for Counterspell isn't really something worth all that much praise. Counterspell, when you're very likely to counter the target spell, is always worth more since Counterspell is a Reaction and your target's spell cost an Action. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, because being the one to cast Counterspell always puts you ahead. A wizard, casting 0-1 level spells until he counters the enemy wizard from casting a spell, is doing his job perfectly.
Casting Eldritch Blast would probably be just as relevant as swinging with your weapon if you were going for a Counterspell. Maybe more, if the enemy caster was waiting to Counterspell you.

[Sorinth]

But none of those are unique to the Hexblade and only optional on the Warlock. Hexblade doesn't give you the ability to stack Charisma, but just using weapons more effectively while you stack Charisma. Weapons are the reason you do it, not Charisma.

What I meant by attacking meant to also include Eldritch Blast in that statement. You're incentivized to make attacks, rather than doing whatever you were going to do otherwise (which may have been Eldritch Blast, but Hexblade makes it much more likely).

You make a fair point about Fighters (Rogues less so, they lose a lot of combat prowess to improve skills), but I think that's more of a bad thing than something that should be an example. Attacking is an uninteresting mechanic that generally isn't adaptive or interactive, and I think it was a mistake to pigeonhole an entire class to that kind of mechanic.

And, honestly, saving a spell slot for Counterspell isn't really something worth all that much praise. Counterspell, when you're very likely to counter the target spell, is always worth more since Counterspell is a Reaction and your target's spell cost an Action. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, because being the one to cast Counterspell always puts you ahead. A wizard, casting 0-1 level spells until he counters the enemy wizard from casting a spell, is doing his job perfectly.

I'm really not understanding your point. Every non spell casting class is incentived to spend their turns attacking whether through Archetypes or Base class features. So why is it bad or worse for that to be the case for the Hexblade?

[Sorinth]

In your example, it seems like your theme is in spite of the Hexblade, not because of it. The only benefit Hexblade provides to your ability to support your team is the armor you'd need to utilize things like PAM and Sentinel. Otherwise, everything else you chose could have been picked regardless of Patron, or much even class.

Yes armor would be a big part of it, it's a bit nonsensical to build a classic knight archetype and not have at least Medium Armor. Yes the backstory could be for any Patron, but again mechanically I need Hexblade for the armor profiencies, and on top of that since I want him to be using his abilities unconscious things like Hexblade Curse are much more thematic because they aren't flashy and don't announce themselves. I can use the curse and still have my character not actually know that. He has no idea why he's hitting the guy harder then normal, must be luck or he's just figured out his enemies moves and his superior skill is showing.

As for class, it could work with a few other classes, notably Paladin. But the same is true for pretty much every backstory/character concept. That was one of the design principles behind 5e, they wanted to make it so that a character could be represented with different character classes/backgrounds. The classic criminal Thug can be a Fighter with Criminal Background or Rogue, the Viking Skald could be a Valor Bard or a Fighter with Performer background, etc...

[Sorinth]

I don't Think Hexblade is that 'broken'. Sure it has the potential for stupid Shenanigans when multiclassing.
But as a player you can build a perfectly fine Hexblade warlock with plenty of non combat utility, a cool patron and even use the nonsensicals habilities to further the plot of your own Story just as well as you can build a dumb eldritch knight that is only good at fighting and has 0 out of combat abilities.

RPGs are all about player agency and Hexblade gives just that.
The base features of the class are packed with combat stuff, This means you basically never need to pick any combat features anywhere else.
Invocations and warlocks spells are full of interestings things to pick to explore the social and explorations pillars of the game.

when combat arise you are always at 100% efficiency because eldritch blast and your trusty sword never run out of spellslots.

And as far as Power creep goes, well I guess Healing spirit, Zealot barb, and other elven accuracy samurais are about as good at making other options irrelevant than Hexblade

Exactly, you grab 1 or 2 combat invocations and Hexblade is good to go combat wise. Spells and the other invocations are then there to do whatever out of combat shenanigans you want.