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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Setting aside that bluffs...

    Remember that we readers have information Team Evil (and possibly the Order) do not. We are shown the location of the Rift in #276.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    A couple of years ago a friend of mine, playing a bard in our group, used comprehend languages and Minor Illusion to communicate with some folk in the jungles of Chult whose language none of us knew. What he basically did was put on a small slide show/power point presentation, one minor illusion at a time, showing what we had done and who we were. They'd say something and he'd try to use a picture or a scene to respond. It was ingenious. DM loved it, the players loved it. We made friends with the batiri hunting party. (The goblins who stand on each others shoulders and wear masks ...)

    We referred to it later as "home movies" usage of minor illusion.
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    Daemon is the name when used alongside Demon and Devil. Yugoloth is the name for them in the editions that call Demons Tanar'ri and Devils Baatezu.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Remember that we readers have information Team Evil (and possibly the Order) do not. We are shown the location of the Rift in #276.
    We know that it was above ground at the time of it happening, but that's it. The background changes (see the mountains in the background and the tree), so it may be a different location or it may be a different camera angle from where the statue was built.

    Also, in comic #1040, Redcloak talks about the ravine being, "built up out of multidimensional stone", which may or may not indicate that the ravine was put there by the original guardian of the gate (I feel like that verbiage implies someone deliberately did something, but it is ambiguous).

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ASCIInerd73 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Remember that we readers have information Team Evil (and possibly the Order) do not. We are shown the location of the Rift in #276.
    We know that it was above ground at the time of it happening, but that's it.
    We don't even know that much; anything in crayon is not necessarily 100% reliable, per the author.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Remember that we readers have information Team Evil (and possibly the Order) do not. We are shown the location of the Rift in #276.
    And Team Evil have information that the readers do not: the contents of the diary of the person who built the whole thing. A diary that, so far, has contained perfectly accurate information about all gate locations, so there is no reason to believe she decided to lie about it to herself in her own diary only for her own gate.

    Grey Wolf
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    A little history.

    The first illusion spell was introduced in the original Dungeons and Dragons. Phantasmal Force was a 2nd level spell. And true to original D&D, it had almost no details. [The rules of D&D fit on fewer than 30 sheets of 8 1/2 inch paper, folded over.]

    In The Strategic Review #4, it became a 1st level spell for the new Illusionist character class. Improved Phantasmal Forces was added.

    In AD&D 1e, it became Phantasmal Force (singular). It was implicitly a silent image, because Improved Phantasmal Force included some sounds.

    By 3rd edition, it had been much more carefully detailed, and broken into Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image.

    So Vaarsuvius, being a 3.5e character, probably meant Silent Image, but I and many other long-term D&D players think the name Phantasmal Force first. I presume that the Giant made the same error.

    In any event, in no version up through 3.5e was Phantasmal Force(s) restricted to affecting a single person.
    I completely forgot that they haven't been upgraded to the latest edition. Thanks though for the history. :)

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, but Roy has not, and so if he assumes that it is life-sized and uses it for scale reference, he is going to get the impression that everything is half the size it actually is, since the status is actually twice as tall as a dwarf usually is.

    Grey Wolf
    Oh, no, is Roy's tendency to assume he knows more than he does going to bite him again?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Oh, no, is Roy's tendency to assume he knows more than he does going to bite him again?
    Eh, V's smart enough that I doubt he'd point to a "refer to this for scale" landmark and leave out key information like "it appears to be approximately double life size" or something. If I show you a picture of something and put a soda can next to it, I generally don't have to explain that it's an 8 oz (or whatever you crazy metric folks call it) can: it's assumed I'm using a typical example of the thing as a reference. If I weren't using an 8 oz can, I'd include a caption stating that.

    (Plus there's the fact that we the audience know it's a life-size statue and that Roy's assumption, while perhaps not strictly supported based on the exact words spoken, is nonetheless correct.)

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Eh, V's smart enough that I doubt he'd point to a "refer to this for scale" landmark and leave out key information like "it appears to be approximately double life size" or something. If I show you a picture of something and put a soda can next to it, I generally don't have to explain that it's an 8 oz (or whatever you crazy metric folks call it) can: it's assumed I'm using a typical example of the thing as a reference. If I weren't using an 8 oz can, I'd include a caption stating that.

    (Plus there's the fact that we the audience know it's a life-size statue and that Roy's assumption, while perhaps not strictly supported based on the exact words spoken, is nonetheless correct.)
    It appears to be about as tall as Xykon, so not "life-size" for a Dwarf (though not grotesquely off). On the other hand, there may be a standard size for Dwarvish statues: RFC something-or-other / ANSI standard / ISO standard / what-have-you.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Oh, no, is Roy's tendency to assume he knows more than he does going to bite him again?
    I doubt it. I'm just being nit-picky, but that's the kind of detail I'd expect to be handled off-panel, rather than waste space and consume the readers' patience by having V specify the exact height if the statue (unless of course Rich has a good loquaciousness joke in mind).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Do we know yet whether all the caves are in the cliffside facing toward the statue and village? Because if instead they're on both sides... then the Tomb is literally a double bluff.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin View Post
    Do we know yet whether all the caves are in the cliffside facing toward the statue and village? Because if instead they're on both sides... then the Tomb is literally a double bluff.
    The one close look we have had at it from ground level suggests they are only of the far side from the statue, with the close side having only the stairs. But we obviously have not been given a full tour, so I suppose it is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin View Post
    Do we know yet whether all the caves are in the cliffside facing toward the statue and village? Because if instead they're on both sides... then the Tomb is literally a double bluff.
    I love what you did there.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    EDIT: In fact, since "check the statue" is so much less time intensive than "check arbitrarily large number of doors" it'd make sense to do that FIRST. Relying on an unknown enemy to be that much less clever than you seems very unwise.
    And we've already seen this line of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Personnally, I love the idea that « it’s obvious that the Gate is actually inside/under the statue » because it’s a self-contradiction.
    Ayup. If you're looking to hide something extremely important, the place dozens of people have declared is the first place they'd look is definitely the wrong choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin View Post
    Do we know yet whether all the caves are in the cliffside facing toward the statue and village? Because if instead they're on both sides... then the Tomb is literally a double bluff.
    Given what we've seen of where Lien and O-Chul were observing, it seems unlikely there are doors there.
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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    It appears to be about as tall as Xykon, so not "life-size" for a Dwarf (though not grotesquely off).
    I would say the most obvious indicator the statue is larger than life size is the size of the head--compare it with Redcloak's, which ought to be about the same size if it were to scale. Judging from that, I reckon it's about 50% bigger than life size. I don't think the Xykon height comparison works, because (a) Xykon is standing in deep snow so you can't see his feet or even the bottom of his robe and (b) the statue is on quite a high plinth.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I love what you did there.
    Thanks! I'm just glad someone noticed.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin View Post
    then the Tomb is literally a double bluff.
    That's just beautiful.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    In 3.5e, at least, Devils and Demons are often used to refer to LE outsiders from the Nine Hells and CE outsiders from the Abyss, respectively. Tanar’ri are the current dominant species of demon (the old species were Obyriths, and there’s a newer species called Lourma I think). Baatezu are the dominant devil species; I think their predecessors are extinct aside from Zargon.

    At least, I think that’s how it goes.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Loumaras are the new demon class, yes - they're usually incorporeal. Zargon's the only "Ancient Baatorian" that could be said to be on the loose - the rest tend to be frozen in ice on Caina, the 8th layer of Baator.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Elan wastes a spell slot for no good reason.
    In 3.5, creating instrumental music with no mechanical effect on the game can be done with Ghost Sound, which Elan presumably knows. (How could Elan not know a bardic illusion spell that can create music?) And Ghost Sound is a cantrip, so a bard who knows it can cast it all day without using up a spell slot.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cminus View Post
    In 3.5, creating instrumental music with no mechanical effect on the game can be done with Ghost Sound, which Elan presumably knows. (How could Elan not know a bardic illusion spell that can create music?) And Ghost Sound is a cantrip, so a bard who knows it can cast it all day without using up a spell slot.
    In 3.5, bards only get to cast 2-4 cantrips per day depending on level, just like any other spell level.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cminus View Post
    In 3.5, creating instrumental music with no mechanical effect on the game can be done with Ghost Sound, which Elan presumably knows. (How could Elan not know a bardic illusion spell that can create music?) And Ghost Sound is a cantrip, so a bard who knows it can cast it all day without using up a spell slot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    In 3.5, bards only get to cast 2-4 cantrips per day depending on level, just like any other spell level.

    Grey Wolf
    This is the blessing and curse of pretty much everything post-3.5e(including PF) adopting infinite cantrips as an official core rule, rather than a fairly common house rule. It's often forgotten that utterly inconsequential spells like Ghost Sound took spell slots for some bizarre reason. If OOTS now was even remotely like OOTS ten years ago, we'd probably have a comic poking fun at this exact situation.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReedeThe23rd View Post
    This is the blessing and curse of pretty much everything post-3.5e(including PF) adopting infinite cantrips as an official core rule, rather than a fairly common house rule. It's often forgotten that utterly inconsequential spells like Ghost Sound took spell slots for some bizarre reason. If OOTS now was even remotely like OOTS ten years ago, we'd probably have a comic poking fun at this exact situation.
    I mean I agree with your general point, but OOTS a decade ago was this, and I doubt that OOTS would make fun of it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    I find it more weird that cantrips weren’t affected by high stats, unlike every other spell level.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I find it more weird that cantrips weren’t affected by high stats, unlike every other spell level.
    Well...extending the bonus spell progression would mean you'd first get a "bonus" 0-level spell at stat 10...the bare minimum of being able to cast 0-level spells in the first place. Which would the fit the pattern of "you get the first bonus slot for a spell level when the ability bonus equals the spell level"; but maybe someone felt "you always have a bonus" was too silly to commit to, and 0-level spells already had "treat the spell level as one half in this particular calculation" things so adding another exception didn't sound too bad?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I mean I agree with your general point, but OOTS a decade ago was this, and I doubt that OOTS would make fun of it.
    I um what. That's roughly about where the comic was when I started reading it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Durkoala View Post
    I um what. That's roughly about where the comic was when I started reading it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Simple but straightforward, with a good joke at the end. More importantly it clarifies that the Order is close enough to Kraagor's Tomb for V and Haley to make it all the way there on a recon mission and back. That probably means... something will happen soon.
    yeah, hopefully a few years worth of xykon comics!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    I mean. What if Sereni (and potentially others she chose to let in on it) krackooomed their gate before they built the tomb over it? She was the one who proposed that the Scribble members all go their separate ways, she may have done this to ensure that she had an excuse to keep Soon and others who wouldn't approve from looking too closely. Kraagor could well have ended up sealed in the rift world and she may have plotted to do this to try to open the gate and retrieve him. Presumably in this scenario she or another caster in the party found a way to fiddle the warning system, Girard was a sorcerer and for all we know he was working for her and volunteered to make the warning system. The explosion of the gate could've caused the rift, and then the rift and the other stuff could've been covered in extra-dimensional stone.

    If the gate still exists I think it's likely completely entombed in the extradimensional stone, but given what happened with Kraagor I think there's a chance Sereni sabotaged or messed with the gate in some way to try to find Kraagor again.

    Imagine how confused and disappointed Team Evil will be if they find an ungated rift.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I mean. What if Sereni (and potentially others she chose to let in on it) krackooomed their gate before they built the tomb over it?
    Then there are no Gates left and the world would already have ended due to the massive risk of the Snarl escaping. Also, there wouldn't be any point building the Gate in the first place if you then just destroyed it immediately.

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