OOTS #1197 - The Discussion Thread

[ShikomeKidoMi]

As I believe you guys will do the “dramatic music joke discussion” for me, I’m just going to be chuckling here in the corner about the dwarf statue being enough to infer size (y’know, all dwarves are the same blah blah blah). Not sure if that was an actual joke, though, now I think about it.

The amusing part is that a dwarf STATUE is helpful. Because without something else to tell you how big the statue is, you have no idea what scale it's built on. Maybe it's a dwarf Statue of Liberty. You don't know.

[theangelJean]

The amusing part is that a dwarf STATUE is helpful. Because without something else to tell you how big the statue is, you have no idea what scale it's built on. Maybe it's a dwarf Statue of Liberty. You don't know.

That was my first thought, too!

Unrelated prediction time:

Spoiler: Location of the rift and gate

Show

I'm not sure if it's been revealed before now in the comic - the scale certainly hadn't been - but the general area is, according to Haley, a "big, crescent-shaped " ... rift in the ground. It's not, as previously implied, just a wall of holes rising out of the ground; the holes are on one side of a giant crevasse. The cliff-like opposite side of the crevasse can be seen in the lower part of V's projection.

What could have made a giant rupture in the earth like that? A rift at the bottom, deep underground, maybe? I'm wondering if all the holes with the monsters aren't even entrances, they're simply a diversion.

But if so, the MiTD's extra cross-painting is going to bring Team Xykon to that conclusion sooner rather than later.

[137beth]

V and Elan's magic working in tandem made my day.

[ReedeThe23rd]

Unrelated prediction time:

Spoiler: Location of the rift and gate

Show

I'm not sure if it's been revealed before now in the comic - the scale certainly hadn't been - but the general area is, according to Haley, a "big, crescent-shaped " ... rift in the ground. It's not, as previously implied, just a wall of holes rising out of the ground; the holes are on one side of a giant crevasse. The cliff-like opposite side of the crevasse can be seen in the lower part of V's projection.

What could have made a giant rupture in the earth like that? A rift at the bottom, deep underground, maybe? I'm wondering if all the holes with the monsters aren't even entrances, they're simply a diversion.

But if so, the MiTD's extra cross-painting is going to bring Team Xykon to that conclusion sooner rather than later.

As much as your prediction would be an exciting twist, I have a past comic that leads me to believe it, sadly, won't be the case:

Spoiler: Reasoning For Such

Show

According to Comic 411(I cannot yet post a link due to lack of previous posts) we know that the largest of the Rifts was located within then Redmountain Hills, which is where the Dungeon of Dorukan, and thus Dorukan's Gate, was located. So unless there was a large KRAKAKOOM in the far north long before Team Evil got there, I suspect the Rift won't be that large.

[Necris Omega]

The amusing part is that a dwarf STATUE is helpful. Because without something else to tell you how big the statue is, you have no idea what scale it's built on. Maybe it's a dwarf Statue of Liberty. You don't know.

Perhaps Dwarven Statuary is common and well studied enough where it becomes a valid reference point when combined with the surrounding landmarks?

Either way, Roy probably has an excellent capacity for determining scale from representation like this - Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) after all.

[hroþila]

Or maybe, since V and Haley saw the actual statue and V is telling Roy that it can be used to infer scale, Roy correctly assumes that the statue is a life-size representation of a dwarf.

[ReedeThe23rd]

Or maybe, since V and Haley saw the actual statue and V is telling Roy that it can be used to infer scale, Roy correctly assumes that the statue is a life-size representation of a dwarf.

Comic 276, the second-to-last Crayon comic, shows us the statue in relation to the other members of the Order of the Scribble, and while that IS a Crayon comic, it does look relatively size-accurate in comparing Dwarf-Human-Elf-Halfling heights. So I'd wager that Kraagor's statue is indeed life-size.

[hroþila]

Comic 276, the second-to-last Crayon comic, shows us the statue in relation to the other members of the Order of the Scribble, and while that IS a Crayon comic, it does look relatively size-accurate in comparing Dwarf-Human-Elf-Halfling heights. So I'd wager that Kraagor's statue is indeed life-size.

Well, turns out it is not exactly life-size, but close enough.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan wastes a spell slot for no good reason.
Standard Elan incompetence (at least he's consistent in that regard since the beginning)
(He could have just sung or played his instrument)

Picture of the rift: nice.
Minrah's change in facial expression got a grin out of me.

[The MunchKING]

Elan wastes a spell slot for no good reason.
Standard Elan incompetence (at least he's consistent in that regard since the beginning)
(He could have just sung or played his instrument)

Picture of the rift: nice.
Minrah's change in facial expression got a grin out of me.

He's a BARD. Summoning music is like a 1st level spell, maybe even Cantrip.

[Jay R]

Phantasmal Force? Isn't that only visible to 1 person? Plus, it has sounds, and only lasts for 1 minute? Wouldn't Silent Image make more sense? Fits with what's happening in the comic and lasts for 10 minutes.

A little history.

The first illusion spell was introduced in the original Dungeons and Dragons. Phantasmal Force was a 2nd level spell. And true to original D&D, it had almost no details. [The rules of D&D fit on fewer than 30 sheets of 8 1/2 inch paper, folded over.]

In The Strategic Review #4, it became a 1st level spell for the new Illusionist character class. Improved Phantasmal Forces was added.

In AD&D 1e, it became Phantasmal Force (singular). It was implicitly a silent image, because Improved Phantasmal Force included some sounds.

By 3rd edition, it had been much more carefully detailed, and broken into Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image.

So Vaarsuvius, being a 3.5e character, probably meant Silent Image, but I and many other long-term D&D players think the name Phantasmal Force first. I presume that the Giant made the same error.

In any event, in no version up through 3.5e was Phantasmal Force(s) restricted to affecting a single person.

[KorvinStarmast]

He's a BARD. Summoning music is like a 1st level spell, maybe even Cantrip.

They are about to engage in their most important battle with the world at stake, a battle with an epic level lich, Redcloak, etc, and he's pissing away a spell slot on ... nonsense.
V's use of Phantasmal Force is well spent: you need to know the terrain and the situation to put together a valid tactical plan. Having all seven of the team (I include Minrah) on the same page is crucial to a successful tactical plan.

Elan's spell casting is zero value added.
(Beyond the narrative consistency of him being mentally sub-standard, and in presenting a-not-particularly-good joke)

[Rockphed]

They are about to engage in the most important battle with an epic level lich, etc, and he's pissing away a spell slot on ... nonsense. V's use of Phantasmal Force is actually very well spent: you need to know the terrain and the situation to put together a valid tactical plan. Having all 7 of the team (I include Minrah) on the same page is crucial to a successful tactical plan.

Elan's spell casting is zero value added.
(Beyond the narrative consistency of him being mentally sub-standard)

Between Bard and Dashing Swordsman, I am fairly certain that Elan is at least partially right to use a spell on the music. I mean he could probably have done as much using his mundane instruments, but sometimes you need the choral overtones, organ fugues, and a medley of saxophones all at the same time, which is really hard for a single bard to do, even if he is dating an amazing rogue.

[KorvinStarmast]

A little history.
===
In any event, in no version up through 3.5e was Phantasmal Force(s) restricted to affecting a single person.

Yeah, that's how I recall it, and it was handy in OD&D to toss a fire ball (third level slot) and then follow it with another one .... except the second one was Phantasmal Force ... but it was a bit more believable since you were just hit with one ...

Phantasmal Forces: The creation of vivid illusions of nearly anything the user envisions
(a projected mental image so to speak). As long as the caster concentrates on the spell, the illusion will continue unless touched by some living creature, so there is no limit on duration, per se. Damage caused to viewers of a Phantasmal
Force will be real if the illusion is believed to be real. Range: 24".

It was wide open ... you could also call up the phantasmal forces of a giant throwing bolders, or an owl bear attacking ...

[Jay R]

Is it wrong that the first thing this made me think of was the potential uses of Phantasmal Force for boardgaming/wargaming?

My first thought was that my gnome illusionist should stop describing things henceforth.

Elan wastes a spell slot for no good reason.

No good reason? It was for dramatic effect! That's a far more important reason than merely affecting a battle.

And incidentally, does anybody have any suggestions for what music I should have on my phone ready for my illusionist to use as an audible glamer?

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean he could probably have done as much using his mundane instruments, .

yes, I agree

but sometimes you need the choral overtones, organ fugues, and a medley of saxophones all at the same time, which is really hard for a single bard to do, even if he is dating an amazing rogue

zero value added for the situation at hand, albeit beautiful from a musical perspective.

Elan is the guy who has to be told by Roy how to use his class features in battle (when to pun and when not to pun, as they are fighting that battle in the dessert in BRiTF)

@JayR:

No good reason? It was for dramatic effect! That's a far more important reason than merely affecting a battle.

Respectfully disagree.
(Again, it is narratively consistent that Elan does things that are not smart, which I have pointed out previously)

As to audible glamer, IIRC that was AD&D 1e, and I think we can do that in 5e with a cantrip called Minor Illusion.

I would recommend that opening phrase of the chorus
"All you zombies hide your faces!"
from the band called The Hooters.
(It's at 1:45 on that video link)
At least, do that when a cleric turns undead. :)

As for general audible glamer sound effects, I'd suggest the opening to
Tubular Bells (Michael Oldfield)
Where the guitar kicks in at about 0:50 on that video ... good place to start)

Or, dig around in your Pink Floyd albums. There's bound to be something you can use.

[Jay R]

Respectfully disagree.
(Again, it is narratively consistent that Elan does things that are not smart, which I have pointed out previously)

Yup. You will continue to measure Elan's actions by Roy's reasons, and I will continue to measure them by Elan's reasons. Elan had a good reason by his own lights, which reason you don't accept. We've communicated.

Yeah, that's how I recall it, and it was handy in OD&D to toss a fire ball (third level slot) and then follow it with another one .... except the second one was Phantasmal Force ... but it was a bit more believable since you were just hit with one ...

It was wide open ... you could also call up the phantasmal forces of a giant throwing bolders, or an owl bear attacking ...

The entire dungeon corridor filled with flowing lava, or the ceiling collapsing.

[KorvinStarmast]

We've communicated.

Indeed we have.

The entire dungeon corridor filled with flowing lava, or the ceiling collapsing.

That too.
I'd be interested to see what you finally choose for that ring tone.

Welcome to the Grand Illusion by Styx would seem to me to be too heavy handed ...

[AvangionQ]

I'm glad to see so many commenters discussing the differences between Phantasmal Force (an illusionary attack spell) and Silent Image (what's being illustrated in the comic).

I wonder if we'll get a v2 correction?

[Doug Lampert]

No good reason? It was for dramatic effect! That's a far more important reason than merely affecting a battle.

They are in a universe that runs on drama, and Elan KNOWS THIS. Good planning music is as vital to proper preparation as good montage music is to proper training.

Seriously, if Elan didn't add that dramatic music, someone might actually discuss the plan, and then where would they be?

[ReedeThe23rd]

I'm glad to see so many commenters discussing the differences between Phantasmal Force (an illusionary attack spell) and Silent Image (what's being illustrated in the comic).

I wonder if we'll get a v2 correction?

Likely not, since as others have pointed out, its only an attack spell in 5th Edition, and in pre-3.5e it was the all-inclusive precursor to the Silent Image tree of 3.5e spells we know and love. I suspect Rich, being someone at least quasi-familiar with every edition, simply got what version of the spell rest in what edition mixed up. That, or V's been studying obscure non-Core spells again.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Bummer, if only it came with a link to orchestral music.

I'm imagining the game of thrones opening theme.

Maybe it's a dwarf Statue of Liberty.

Well, not liberty. Maybe the dwarf statue of joyless duty.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, not liberty. Maybe the dwarf statue of joyless duty.

No, I'd say given what we know of the guy, liberty sounds like something he'd represent. Also boundless rage, and frothing at the mouth, but liberty (to smash through whatever is in his way) is there.

Grey Wolf

[Jay R]

Ummmm... we already know what the statue is. We've seen it. It's a life-sized statue of Kraagor.

It's the dwarven statue of Dutiful Sacrifice.

I'd be interested to see what you finally choose for that ring tone.

Since the inspiration is Elan, I'm thinking this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ummmm... we already know what the statue is. We've seen it. It's a life-sized statue of Kraagor.

Yes, but Roy has not, and so if he assumes that it is life-sized and uses it for scale reference, he is going to get the impression that everything is half the size it actually is, since the status is actually twice as tall as a dwarf usually is.

Grey Wolf

[Petrocorus]

Showing map will probably become my favorite use of Minor Illusion in 5E.

[Ironsmith]

I'm imagining the game of thrones opening theme.

I'm thinking more Two Steps from Hell, most likely something like Archangel (https://youtu.be/dJ-QLl5qjLg), Heart of Courage (https://youtu.be/LRLdhFVzqt4) or Victory (https://youtu.be/lgVCIBj8qdU).

Or maybe that's just my personal bias showing, since that's what my siblings and I tend to play when there's adventuring to be done.

[KorvinStarmast]

Likely not, since as others have pointed out, its only an attack spell in 5th Edition, .

In the original game, it could kill off a party or an entire group of enemies. I'd say that's as much as attack spell as is needed. (See Jay's example of the ceiling collapsing or the corridor filling with lava).

Showing map will probably become my favorite use of Minor Illusion in 5E.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine, playing a bard in our group, used comprehend languages and Minor Illusion to communicate with some folk in the jungles of Chult whose language none of us knew. What he basically did was put on a small slide show/power point presentation, one minor illusion at a time, showing what we had done and who we were. They'd say something and he'd try to use a picture or a scene to respond. It was ingenious. DM loved it, the players loved it. We made friends with the batiri hunting party. (The goblins who stand on each others shoulders and wear masks ...)

We referred to it later as "home movies" usage of minor illusion.

[Squirrel_Token]

Anyone else notice those orange lights off the side of the ship in the second to the last panel? What's that?

[ReedeThe23rd]

In the original game, it could kill off a party or an entire group of enemies. I'd say that's as much as attack spell as is needed. (See Jay's example of the ceiling collapsing or the corridor filling with lava).

I should clarify that I was referring specifically to how the 5e spell named Phantasmal Force is fundamentally only a combat spell, as it requires an Intelligence check against a single target, and is not a general illusion visible to all.

While the original version could certainly wound, maim, or kill(It specifically did damage if the targets believed it was real, much like the 5e version) it was not limited in number of targets, did not force a save or check onto anyone unless they investigated it, and had more uses beyond combat. It was much more in-line with what we'd now call Silent Image than the 5th Edition Phantasmal Force.